[50caliber123]

Which is the better platform? Is either fairly low-cost/simple to scout mount?

[Silent Sam]

I would go with the K-31. Mounts that replace the rear sight are readily available for both and easy to mount. I have several K-31's and a M38 and Finn. I have a K-31 in a Boyd's sporter stock that I am still finishing. I already have a Darrel's mount and a Leupold scout scope mounted on the action. I plan on using it this upcoming deer season. The K-31 will likely be more accurate. If you have shot a few examples of both you will see that for the understatement that it is. The Swiss action is also much more ergonomic and faster. Some don't care for the safety design for hunting but I find it excellent. Obvious even when mounted and silent to operate. The Mosin safety... well, try it for yourself. I don't bother using mine but I only use my Mosins at the range. I personally find it unacceptable for hunting. Swiss triggers are outstanding by any standard. The trigger on my Finn is a good one but not in the same league as the worst K-31 trigger. If you are just going to use at the range the Mosin will be cheaper to feed but less accurate. Don't get me wrong, I love my Mosins for what they are but for my uses there is no contest between the two for field use.

[Red Tornado]

I agree with SS with one caveat, if you're only going to be shooting within 50 yards or so in heavy brush, the M38 might be a little handier. Beyond that, the Swiss will really outshine the Mosin.
RT

[50caliber123]

I'm looking at a 100-200yard rifle, something that can reach out and touch accurately and effectively. I would use it as a deer rifle and at the range, and yes, am pretty dissatisfied with the mosin's safety. Both rifles I noticed are fitted with heavier barrels than my other surplus guns, like about 3/4" diameter. Where can I get an easy to install mount for the K-31?

[jd46561]

Get the k31 , a much better rifle then the m38 . Graf and son has st. marie clamp on mount with rings for 67.00 . ( http://www.grafs.com/search?q=st.marie ) Temp out of stock, but more to come shortly . Every body on the boards who has one ,loves this mount.

[Langenator]

And the best part of the St Marie mount is the iron sights are still there, if for some reason you unexpectedly encounter that big buck at close range.

Also makes doing a quick and dirty sight in very easy. BTW, anyone have a rough iron sight to scope offset for this mount?

[Matt Dillon]

Folks, I have the Swiss K-31, and Mosin Nagant 91/30 and M44. I love all three of them. The Swiss is a tack driver, and I have a scope mount for it as well as the M44. I have been hunting with both of them, and I think that the M44 is a little handier. Here in East Texas, we don't often get the opportunity of shooting greater than 100 yards, more like 30-50 yards because of the dense brush, and I find that a 4x pistol scope mounted on the M44 is just fine for those distances. I am not a great rifle shot (especially with my older eyes) but with my hand loads I have placed 5 rounds within .7" circle at 50 yards with the M44, and that is plenty accurate for me. I would get both of them, as you can't go wrong. The Swiss rifle is exquisitely made, and the machining is beautiful. I have the St. Marie drill and tap mount as I'm left eyed dominant, and it is very nice. My only advice about purchasing Mosin Nagants is to stay away from those rifles made during the WWII years. My M44 was made in 1947, and my 91/30 was made in 1927. All three are great rifles, and can't be beat for the little that they cost. The ammo for the Mosin Nagants is much cheaper, however, and I like to shoot the Czech silver tip as well as my own reloads in the Mosin Nagants. The ammo for the Swiss (GP11) is very well made, and fortunately I was able to procur quite a bit of it awhile back, and shoot it sparingly. I shoot mostly my own reloads in all three rifles using brass from Grafs (they have brass for the 7.55 Swiss as well as 7.62x54)

[50caliber123]

Is the St. Marie's mount a regular mount or a forward mount?

[Silent Sam]

St Marie has two mounts. A clamp-on that goes on the right side of the receiver that is rock solid and a drill and tap mount that goes on the left side. Drilling and tapping that swiss steel is no mean task and I am reluctant to permanently alter any of my K-31's. There are a few mounts that replace the front sight. I have Darrel's and I think maybe B-Square makes one. Best to check the Swiss rifle boards for details. I have the St Marie clamp-on and it is excellent at the range but I just couldn't get a good cheek weld for hunting with either the original or aftermarket stock using it. I agree with the others about beating the bushes, a Mosin carbine would be handier just due to length (plus you could disorient the game with just the muzzle blast:) ). I just can't use that safety in a hunting situation and I like the ability to reach out there if necessary. You'll be able to do that a lot more confidently with the K-31.

[50caliber123]

How does the St. Marie's clamp-on mount work with a standard scope if the rounds eject straight up?

[Red Tornado]

It's offset to the right about 3/4". That allows the casings to eject fine. As Sam said, it works great for the range, but I haven't tried it for hunting or plinking. Over at http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/ under the Swiss forum several guys recommended a strap on cheek pad that is supposed to put you right in line. You might ask about the hunting applications over there, as well.
RT

[mcooper]

K31 HANDS down! I have more than a couple of them:D , and I find them an incredible step up from my M1938.

[Kymasabe]

I recently read that costs to produce a "new" K31 would be close to $1000. There is definately a quality difference between the K31 and Mosins. I'm admitedly a Mosin fan but a K31 is in my "must buy" list.

By the way...we found a hacked up Chinese type 53 carbine, junking the stock, mounting it in a Boyds stock, cutting the barrel down to 16.5", recrowning, threading the barrel end and installing a muzlzle brake.
I'll never be able to sell it once I'm done, but should be one neat little carbine.

[Cosmoline]

K-31's a very nice rifle, but don't expect the GP-11 to last much longer! I'd suggest getting geared up for handloading if you want to shoot it much. The one drawback of K-31's is they tend to be less accepting of a wide range of ammo than the Soviet Mosins. They like what they like, and what they like is GP-11.

[MechAg94]

I would pick the K31 simply because I am more confident in it. I just installed the clamp on mount and shot it the first time last weekend. For me, I had to fish rounds out of the chamber, but that was on a bench. Might be different standing. The scope mount was solid throughout. I got at least 2" without trying too hard, but I was late getting to the range and it was getting dark. I didn't have time to be patient and let the barrel cool.

In the past I have noticed a distint difference switching to aftermarket ammo. Groups increased in size noticeable. However, I am not an expert bench shooter by any means. I intend to do some more shooting/testing when I get some more time. Maybe this weekend. :)

On ammo, I just bought a 500 round case from AIM a few months ago. I guess I'll have to get a little more later this year. I am selling my house and getting ready to move so stocking up on more ammo is out of the question.

[Dionysusigma]

Do any online dealers still have K31s in stock? :confused:

[MechAg94]

I see them advertised in Shotgun News quite a bit still. I am not sure about websites.

[BillinNH]

<Do any online dealers still have K31s in stock??

AIM hasn't had any listed for a while, but I recently got a flier from Centerfire Systems and they had both walnut and beech versions available. Google for their wesite.

Bill

[Fingolfin]

Regarding the St. Marie mount, since it is offset to the right does it interfere at all with using the bolt?

I noticed in this article they never show the gun with the bolt in it, which I thought was strange.

http://surplusrifle.com/reviews2006/stmariescopebaseswiss/index.asp

[steelhead]

I own both and the K31 is a lot better in many regards. However, I've always been of the mind that a "Scout" rifle was lightweight, 20 inch barrel (or less), and used for relatively short ranges.

I use my M38, in the brush, and have taken mulies between 90 to 150 yards. IMO, the K31 is a little too long, and heavy, to be a "scout" rifle. Even the M38 could stand to lose a couple inches on the barrel and a pound on weight.....


Barrel OAL Weight (without scope)

M38 20" 40" 7.6 pounds (original config)
K31 25.6" 43.6" 8.9 pounds (original config)


http://www.hunt101.com/img/355297.jpg

[Technosavant]

Regarding the St. Marie mount, since it is offset to the right does it interfere at all with using the bolt?

I noticed in this article they never show the gun with the bolt in it, which I thought was strange.

I have a K31 with the St. Marie clamp-on mount. I haven't scoped it yet, but I will soon. The photos are done without the bolt for clarity. It's hard to believe how it clamps effectively without interference, but it sure does. It isn't as rigid as a drilled/tapped mount, but holds zero rather well and can even be swapped between rifles.

If you want to add a scope to a K31 without altering the rifle (or requiring gunsmith help), and do so inexpensively, the St. Marie clamp-on is a fantastic solution.

[50caliber123]

Ok, I'm leaning towards the K-31 mount! Is there a major difference between the Steel version and the Aluminum version, other than the materials that they're made out of? Which do you guys use? The steel one is more expensive I noticed. Which 3/8" rings (steel) to use?

[Dionysusigma]

If 7.5x55 availability becomes an issue, can a K-31 be easily rebarreled?

And if so, what caliber would it be easiest to rebarrel to? 7.62x54, 8mm, .30-06, .308, .300 WinMag, or... ?

[MechAg94]

The clamp on mount does not interfere with the bolt. The bolt stops just short of it. I didn't have any issue working the bolt.

[Cosmoline]

If 7.5x55 availability becomes an issue, can a K-31 be easily rebarreled?

It can be rebarreled, but I've never seen it done well. The cartridge is a bit of an oddball and is not in the standard Mauser family like .308, .30'06, 7x57, 8x57, etc. I've had a .308 rechambering but it never worked right. I remember an article where some bubbas with more money than sense got together and tried to turn it into a .35 Whelen brush gun, but it was a $5,000 disaster. The Swiss engineered those rifles to function as well as they possibly could. They are designed around GP-11. If you try to force them into some other chambering you are unlikely to improve the accuracy and reliability. I'd suggest focusing your energy on recreating GP-11 with handloads.

[Technosavant]

Ok, I'm leaning towards the K-31 mount! Is there a major difference between the Steel version and the Aluminum version, other than the materials that they're made out of? Which do you guys use? The steel one is more expensive I noticed. Which 3/8" rings (steel) to use?

I think mine is steel. Just buy from Graf's or Brownell's- it's the original St. Marie Graphics mount. Other places (AIM) carry Chinese copies. The copies aren't significantly cheaper, and I would just as soon reward the guy who came up with it.

For the rings, the Warne 7.3 rings are the ticket. The mount and rings can be had for $80-90 together. The medium height rings can handle up to 40mm (maybe even 44mm, but don't quote me on that) objective lens and still clear the rear sights. I plan to get something in a 40mm objective. Plenty of clearance.

Pierre (the developer of the mount) is a contributor over on swissrifles.com, and he has a neat no-modification bipod mount coming out. I plan to add that too; I'll have a nice little tacticool walnut stocked piece of history. :evil: :D

[50caliber123]

I asked b/c graf's has an aluminum and a steel version. What's the biggest size objective lense I could mount with low/medium height rings?

[Silent Sam]

Rebarrelling a K-31 can be done but it is not cheap. The issue is with the bolt lock-up not the chamber. Look at a K-31 bolt and you will see the lugs are helical not square. The "normal" method of rebarrelling involves cutting the existing barrel to a stub and mounting a new barrel to that. If you reload it is not hard to get an accurate load worked up. Especially if you are comparing it to Mosin carbine accuracy. 165gr and heavier usually work best and we are talking about a long ogive spitzer boattail bullet. You also need to pay attention to seating depth. GP-11 is essentially a match bullet design. It is not however a hunting bullet. It will penetrate quite well but is not made to expand. If you look at the history of it you will find out that the US .308 / 168gr match bullet owes a lot of its design to the Swiss bullet. K-31 chambers were not meant for roundnose / flatpoint bullets. The closest commercial match would be a Berger bullet I believe but I have used Hornady, Nosler and Sierra bullets with success.

As far as the whole "scout rifle" debate goes... just because I put a "scout scope mount" on a rifle doesn't mean I am trying to comply with anyone's definition of what a "scout rifle" is. Actually neither really qualifies. It just happens to be the best hunting option for me. The K-31 is definitely longer and heavier but not too much so. Restocked it is quite handy and swings well. Balance is well forward and it is easy to get on target.

For those hunting with the Mosin, how are you dealing with the safety? That is my biggest problem followed by the bolt / bolt handle design. Comparitively the K-31 is a joy to cycle. Slap it back and then forward and you are good to go. You don't even need to break your cheekweld. I know hunting shouldn't take more than one shot, but I am of this school of keep shooting till the game is down.

[Technosavant]

You know, after looking at it, mine IS aluminum. Go figure- I didn't mess with it much; just put it on to see how it fit and then took it off again. One advantage to the Al is that since it is softer than steel, it can't hurt the receiver.

For the size of scope vs. the rings, since the medium rings will go up to no more than about 44mm (and 40mm is about as small an objective lens as you might want to mess with), I wouldn't bother with the small. You can ask over at swissrifles.com, but I went with the medium, it seems most people go medium, and there aren't any problems.

[steelhead]

"For those hunting with the Mosin, how are you dealing with the safety?"

Not much you can do. I just don't carry a round in the chamber. Yes, it has cost me some opportunities but that doesn't bother me.

[seeker_two]

Since part of Col. Cooper's characteristics for a Scout Rifle involve it being chambered in a "easily obtainable" cartridge, I'd think the M-N would be a better choice. 7.62x54R is still standard issue with many countries, and ammo supplies don't seem to be drying up here--both new and surplus.

I hope the Colonel does a write-up on the M-N soon. His health hasn't been the best lately... :uhoh:

[Cosmoline]

"For those hunting with the Mosin, how are you dealing with the safety?"

Not much you can do. I just don't carry a round in the chamber. Yes, it has cost me some opportunities but that doesn't bother me

Where the devil did you get this idea? I've been carrying Mosins locked and loaded for years now. You simply use your hands and operate the safety. Why people are so afraid of the Mosin safety is beyond me. It's extremely easy to use and can be taken off silently. It's also about the safest safety ever designed.

[steelhead]

Cos,

I'll go halfway with you on that one. The safety on my 91/30 is easy to operate but , for some reason, the M38 is very stiff. I just found it easier to not chamber a round. Any ideas on what might be making the M38 safety tougher to manipulate?

[euclid]

I second the assertion made by steelehad. I have a diffcult time manipulating the saftey on some of the MN rifles I have. Some are real easy, others not...

[MudPuppy]

I think 7.5X55 is being mfg'ed by more producers, so it should be more easily obtained.

I love my K-31, but can't compare it personally. A 91/30 is on the wish list--but not really a good candidate as a scout rifle.

[Dark Helmet]

Get a Finn M39 from here- I did! http://www.gunsnammo.com/ :D

[bluedsteelnwood]

Check out surplusrifle.com in the article section for a story on the new scope mount that goes more directly over the action, no drilling etc. needed. The K31 is the most accurate centerifle rifle in the world for it's price and several times it. As for ammunition not being available Wolf Gold seriirs which is made by privi partison is excellent stuff also Graf's sellls Horanday loaded ammo too. The round is almost exactly like the 7.62 NATO and can be used out ot several hundred yards with a scope or diopter sites.Big Problem with K31 is there will be no more coming in and the price is going up. Very similar to the Swedish M96 which I bought all matching serial numbers for $70 in the eighties and now worth about $300, the K31 is going the same way, goty mine for $89.95 with walnut stock, muzzle cover and slling for ten extra. AIM is out of them now along with the bayonnets which were more expensive than the rifle at times.

[Cosmoline]

Any ideas on what might be making the M38 safety tougher to manipulate?

The bolts are identical on the models, but your M-38 may simply have a tighter mainspring. Just grip the knob when the stock is set firmly against your shoulder and pull back with your arm muscles. People get into troubles when they try to actuate the safety without sufficient leverage or using only their small hand muscles.

[50caliber123]

I have made a decision: I will eventually order the K31 scope mount from St. Marie's. I have a red dot scope laying around and ordered on ebay for $26.00 with shipping, a mount rail for a scout gun. Best of both worlds this way.