CCW Blackpowder


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huli
June 7, 2006, 11:35 AM
Is it illegal to carry a ROA loaded without a permit, If the caps are not on the nipples? Thanks :what:

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Car Knocker
June 7, 2006, 01:39 PM
I have no idea what state you're in, but in Utah that would fall under "carrying a concealed dangerous weapon". Laws vary by state, often greatly.

Smokin_Gun
June 7, 2006, 02:55 PM
Dunno about ROA's they aren't an "Antique Firearm" or a replica as listed under the 2nd ammendment. As far as I know it would e considered a modern 20th Century BP Rev... but with out caps in or near it I couldn't tell ya.

dwave
June 7, 2006, 03:13 PM
I believe the best thing to do is ask the police or someone like that.

ribbonstone
June 7, 2006, 05:54 PM
In this location, it's gainst the law (unless you have a permit).

Does bring up an interresting question..why would you ant to carry a percussion revolver. minus the percussion caps, concealed?

RyanM
June 7, 2006, 11:43 PM
Depends on state. In PA, cap and ball revolvers are firearms for the purpose of concealed carry, but not firearms for most other purposes.

Smokin_Gun
June 8, 2006, 01:36 AM
Without a cylinder in the Revolver but having a capped loaded cylinder even in the cab of a vehicle. Or Holstered Rev and cylinder in a cylinder pouch is not concidered a loaded firearm, here anyway. Advantange of owning an 1858Remington. Granted one may be delayed if stopped but you can't be arrested for it.
Don't they make a replacement button for that screw you have to remove on the ROA to remove the cylinder?
Kinda a grey area indeed though...especially from State to State, Country to County.

pohill
June 8, 2006, 02:48 AM
SG, I think what covers the ROA is the fact that they use "unconventional ammo", despite the fact that they're not based on any actual pre-1898 firearm. Converting to cartridge changes everything. As far as carrying an uncapped BP revolver...first of all, you got the gun, powder, and ball - try telling a judge it wasn't loaded. Secondly...why carry it that way?

gmatov
June 8, 2006, 05:53 AM
Ryan M,

What do you know about the PA firearms ordinances? Not to be picking on you, but if you could point me to where in the hell you CAN get where you may or may not carry, I would be deeply appreciative.

There are places I think I may, and then there are places that I keep reading that I may not.

F'rinstance, I go into an eating place that also serves liquor, but I don't drink, am I in violation? If it derives over 51 % of its income from food, it is a different animal, Am I in violation?

Tough to determine what you are allowed to do with a permit. No rules posted to tell you what you can't do.

Cheers,

George

pohill
June 8, 2006, 08:25 AM
In MA, if it's a "weapon" (gun - BP or otherwise), and its concealed, then it's a concealed weapon. Laws in restrictive states do not vary alot in concept.

RyanM
June 8, 2006, 02:58 PM
http://members.aol.com/StatutesP2/18.Cp.61A.html

If you have a concealed carry permit, there are very few places where you cannot legally carry. Any Federal or State property, such as post offices, state parks, jails, etc. In most counties, you also may not carry in local courthouses, though in 1 or 2 counties, only the courtrooms, DA's office, Judge's chambers, and other rooms where legal business is actually conducted, may be marked no firearms. http://members.aol.com/StatutesP7/18PA913.html

Also, in the case of post offices, the post office must be clearly marked at the main entrance "no firearms allowed," otherwise you can't be charged for bringing a gun in. Same with state parks. Still looking for that one, but I know it's in there.

Other than that, it's all good. Churches, bars, restaurants, even public schools! http://members.aol.com/StatutesP7/18PA912.html

(c) Defense.--It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.

There was a guy awhile back who stopped an attempted school shooting with a legally carried concealed handgun that he'd had with him while attending some kind of school event. He wasn't charged with a thing. Stopping a killing spree is actually a "lawful purpose?" Who woulda thunk it?

Also, the PA CCW is a concealed firearms license. PA state law defines a firearm thusly:

http://members.aol.com/StatutesP7/18PA6102.html
"Firearm."
Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable.

Also relevant is 6118. Antique firearms. http://members.aol.com/StatutesP7/18PA6118.html

(a) General rule.--This subchapter shall not apply to antique firearms.

(b) Exception.--Subsection (a) shall not apply to the extent that such antique firearms, reproductions or replicas of firearms are concealed weapons as provided in section 6106 (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license), nor shall it apply to the provisions of section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms) if such antique firearms, reproductions or replicas of firearms are suitable for use.

(c) Definition.--As used in this section, the term "antique firearm" means:

1. Any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock or percussion cap type of ignition system 1050.
2. Any firearm manufactured on or before 1898.
3. Any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (2) if such replica:
i. is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire fixed ammunition; or
ii. uses rimfire or conventional center fire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

The legalese in (b) is kind of convoluted, so let me translate. "Antique firearms, as defined below, are not usually firearms. They are firearms for the purpose of concealed carry, and they are firearms if you're a convicted felon or wifebeater."

Hm, darn. So an NAA Companion actually wouldn't be a good CCW piece for a convicted felon, in this state.

Also relevant is 908. Prohibited offensive weapons. http://members.aol.com/StatutesP7/18PA908.html

(a) Offense defined.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if, except as authorized by law, he makes repairs, sells, or otherwise deals in, uses, or possesses any offensive weapon.

(b) Exceptions.--

1. It is a defense under this section for the defendant to prove by a preponderance of evidence that he possessed or dealt with the weapon solely as a curio or in a dramatic performance, or that, with the exception of a bomb, grenade or incendiary device, he complied with the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. 5801 et seq.), or that he possessed it briefly in consequence of having found it or taken it from an aggressor, or under circumstances similarly negativing any intent or likelihood that the weapon would be used unlawfully.
2. This section does not apply to police forensic firearms experts or police forensic firearms laboratories. Also exempt from this section are forensic firearms experts or forensic firearms laboratories operating in the ordinary course of business and engaged in lawful operation who notify in writing, on an annual basis, the chief or head of any police force or police department of a city, and, elsewhere, the sheriff of a county in which they are located, of the possession, type and use of offensive weapons.
3. This section shall not apply to any person who makes, repairs, sells or otherwise deals in, uses or possesses any firearm for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.

(c) Definition.--As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection:

"Firearm."
Any weapon which is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.
"Offensive weapons."
Any bomb, grenade, machine gun, sawed-off shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches, firearm specially made or specially adapted for concealment or silent discharge, any blackjack, sandbag, metal knuckles, dagger, knife, razor or cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or otherwise, or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose.

PA state law has a lot of clauses like that. Makes the law look a lot stricter than it really is.

Carl N. Brown
June 8, 2006, 04:37 PM
ROA? Ruger Old Army?

MCgunner
June 8, 2006, 08:06 PM
Man, I think I could conceal a shotgun about as easy as an Old Army! ROFL!

A black powder is a firearm under Texas law and you need a permit to carry it on your person loaded or not unless hunting or fishing or otherwise in an outdoor activity where exposed firearms are not prohibited.

http://www.packing.org is a good source of info on concealed carry laws state by state.

Derek
June 9, 2006, 11:29 PM
Carl, yes, as in "Fabrici diem, pvnc!"

gopguy
June 10, 2006, 11:53 AM
Ohio bans carrying firearms in all government buildings...state, local, federal. No black powder firearms either.....

wdlsguy
June 10, 2006, 11:40 PM
A black powder is a firearm under Texas law

Generally true, unless it's "a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899" and "if the replica does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition" [Texas Penal Code 46.01(3)(B)].

I don't think a Ruger Old Army qualifies as a replica of anything manufactured before 1899, so I believe it would be considered a firearm under Texas law.

pohill
June 11, 2006, 12:03 AM
In MA (for example), the ROA would be on the same level as an 1860 .44 as long as it used black powder (or Pyrodex, 777), ball and caps (unconventional ammo), even though it's not a replica of any particular revolver. Convert to cartridge and everything changes. This info I actually got from the ATF and MA State Police about a year ago.

MCgunner
June 11, 2006, 01:21 PM
wdlsguy, so you're saying I could carry a concealed 51 Remington in Texas with no permit? I haven't looked into it specifically, I'll admit.

wdlsguy
June 11, 2006, 04:19 PM
so you're saying I could carry a concealed 51 Remington in Texas with no permit?

The law seems to read that way, but the Harris County DA (http://dao-web.dao.hctx.net/ie/TEXAS%20WEAPONS%20LAWS.pdf) seems to think otherwise.

MCgunner
June 11, 2006, 04:55 PM
Sounds like some creativity going on. However, if you were just caught with it and not "using it as a weapon"? Ah, I'll let others test the law, I reckon. I have a CCW anyway, I just like to know the letter of the law. Might be handy to know someday if I COULD carry a Remmie legally. But, I've also heard that in Harris county, no one has ever been found to be "traveling" by the old statute before the passed the "presumption of travel" thing a while back.

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