The reality of putting a primer inside a bullet


PDA






RyanM
June 8, 2006, 02:19 AM
Took a Berry's 180 gr plated hollowpoint. Drilled out the hollowpoint with a 3/16" drill bit. Inserted CCI small pistol primer. Donned eye and ear protection. Placed a broken 1/16" drill bit, taped to a stick, on the primer. Hit drill bit with hammer. Loud pop, bright flash. Ow, something hot hit my neck. Lots of blood and trip to the emergency room. Okay, that last part didn't actually happen. But something hot did hit my neck.

End result was a bullet with a lot of soot in it and a primer anvil stuck to the bottom, a stick with soot on it, and a drill bit with soot on it. Zero expansion. The hollowpoint cavity is still 0.183" in diameter. After prying out the anvil, though, it does look like there was some flame cutting at the bottom of the hollowpoint. But that's it. The primer cup seems to have disappeared. It may have flown off in one piece, or may have shattered into tiny bits. My bare feet haven't found any fragments yet. The wounding effect added by the tiny blast and possible fragmentation would be negligible, assuming the primer even went off on impact.

Conclusion: "Devastator" bullets may have expanded to a very large diameter, or possibly fragmented, but such performance was only due to the large diameter of the hollowpoint cavity. See test results of same bullet with same size drilled out hollowpoint cavity here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=201813&highlight=plated).

No, I am not crazy enough to try this again with gunpowder in the bullet. Besides, that would cushion the impact to the primer and keep it from going off.

If you enjoyed reading about "The reality of putting a primer inside a bullet" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
mete
June 8, 2006, 07:25 AM
A properly designed HP will do the job just as well .The use of primers in a bullet is not a new idea and they haven't been successful.

Brian Williams
June 8, 2006, 11:21 AM
Try a percussion cap and a few granules of FFFg in a dead soft lead bullet???

AirForceShooter
June 8, 2006, 12:35 PM
Are you NUTS????
just wondering
:what:
AFS

dogtown tom
June 8, 2006, 01:19 PM
I'm not advocating putting a primer inside of a HP cavity....but :)

Hitting the the primer at rest proves what?

I believe the issue is what effect the primer would have on that hollow point when it is traveling at more than 1,000 ft per second.

We know that hollowpoints will have the greatest likelihood of expanding when striking a soft gelatinous material. If I were to throw a handful of black cherry Jello at a hollowpoint, I would be as misled by the result as striking a primer inserted in a bullet at rest. And I would waste dessert and have to go to my room.

Having seen Jaws and Chief Brody...
Having ben mor stupider than I am now...

I too tried putting assorted crap in .38 Special hollowpoints when I was 19. My experience shooting with a primer in a hollowpoint showed that hitting an abandoned washing machine it would make a "pop/thunk" sound rather than the ordinary "thunk" on impact. Did the bullet show greater expansion- YES. But I could not convince my buddy to take one for science, so my results are only on hard targets. Wow. Even at 19 I realized I just wasted a perfectly good primer.

MCgunner
June 8, 2006, 02:00 PM
How about the old story of drilling out the hollow point, filling the cavity with mercury, and soldering over it? I ain't testin' it, can tell you that! Mercury is rather poisonous on its own. I imagine if you actually SHOT someone in self defense with such a bullet and the defense got ahold of the information, they could have a field day with it. :rolleyes:

RyanM
June 8, 2006, 02:26 PM
A properly designed HP will do the job just as well .The use of primers in a bullet is not a new idea and they haven't been successful.

You know that, and I know that, but a lot of people need real empirical evidence for something before they believe it. Maybe the test results will stop someone else from trying it. But I'm not counting on it. Still, blowing stuff up is kinda fun, even if the stuff doesn't actually get blowed up.

RyanM, doing stupid stuff so you don't have to! But you will anyway, even though you no longer have to.

Try a percussion cap and a few granules of FFFg in a dead soft lead bullet???

I considered trying that (with the bullet wrapped in many layers of rags, and using a longer stick), but I have no black powder. Only smokeless, which wouldn't do much except go "whoosh" and make a fireball. Plus I have no dead soft lead bullets. The Berry's are the softest I got. Send me some FFFg, a soft lead bullet (maybe a .38, so there's even less material around the same size hollowpoint), and a welding mask and I'll see what I can do. :)

Are you NUTS????
just wondering

Yes, I am nuts! I just like testing these kinds of urban myths, if it seems possible to do so with my budget. plus, I had a couple bullets that had been used for the "does crimp increase or decrease setback?" test, and they were kinda mangled from being chambered many times. So there was really nothing else to use 'em for.

Hitting the the primer at rest proves what?

I believe the issue is what effect the primer would have on that hollow point when it is traveling at more than 1,000 ft per second.

Which can be determined in this case by hitting it at rest. If a primer goes off on impact with a soft target, it'll do so before it's penetrated more than 1/4", since that's when the primer will be struck. That's before the bullet has started to expand. It's totally illogical to think that the primer would blow up at any time other than when the bullet is at its highest velocity. So that means that whacking a primer in a resting bullet should have the same effect as the primer going off on impact with a soft target, a fraction of a second before the bullet starts to expand. And the test has indicated that all that'll happen is the primer cup will vanish, a bunch of soot will appear, and there'll be a tiny amount of flame cutting on the bottom of the hollowpoint cavity. It won't initiate expansion, nor logically increase expansion, in that case.

How about the old story of drilling out the hollow point, filling the cavity with mercury, and soldering over it? I ain't testin' it, can tell you that! Mercury is rather poisonous on its own. I imagine if you actually SHOT someone in self defense with such a bullet and the defense got ahold of the information, they could have a field day with it.

Actually, that one former dictator of Finland was shot with one of those, so it's already been tested better than I could. I forget the guy's name, but you could look it up easily. There was no explosion or anything. The mercury formed an extremely brittle amalgam with the lead in the bullet. The bullet struck Mr. Dictator in the belt buckle, shattered into many fragments because the inside was so brittle, and pierced his intestines in several hundred places. He died of peritonitis, moaning "why... why?" over and over. The only proper death for a tyrant.

Sounds pretty similar to the unmodified Berry's plated bullets, actually. Brittle, inelastic material inside the hollowpoint bonded to the lead makes the bullet nose fragment rather than expanding.

Frohickey
June 8, 2006, 02:26 PM
How about instead of mercury, filling it with a nerve agent? :evil:

Biker
June 8, 2006, 03:21 PM
I do know of one individual who puts human feces in his HPs. He figures that if the projectile doesn't kill the target, the resulting infection might.
Who can say?
~shrugs~

Biker

M2 Carbine
June 8, 2006, 04:33 PM
The reality of putting a primer inside a bullet?

It's a waste of time. I experimented with that 40 years ago.:)




Biker, it worked in Vietnam on Punji sticks.
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/enc3/punji_stick

Smith357
June 8, 2006, 06:18 PM
I experiment with it about 20 years ago and reach the same conclusion.

zahc
June 8, 2006, 06:50 PM
How about the old story of drilling out the hollow point, filling the cavity with mercury, and soldering over it?

Master Alucard's .454 Casull seems to get the job done on vampires. Don't know about the real world, though.

Biker
June 8, 2006, 07:42 PM
Yup M2 Carbine. I was aware of that. Fact is, I told the guy about that practice and immediately his eyes lit up. :)

Biker

MCgunner
June 8, 2006, 07:52 PM
I did potassium cyanide in a .22 hollowpoint once. It didn't hold a lot, but apparently it don't need to. :what: Shot a feral dog in the butt with it, he ran about 50 yards yappin', stopped, stiffened, and fell over dead. That stuff works!

Biker
June 8, 2006, 08:32 PM
MCgunner...

Did ya eat 'im?

Biker

MCgunner
June 8, 2006, 08:33 PM
Did ya eat 'im?

If I had, I might not be here to tell the tale!:what: That stuff's mighty potent!

Standing Wolf
June 8, 2006, 10:51 PM
Dip your bullets in garlic juice so the wounds will hurt more.

redranger1
June 8, 2006, 11:21 PM
If i understand right C4 will explode under a hard impact, right? If so why not fill the cavity in a HP with it? :evil:

RyanM
June 8, 2006, 11:55 PM
Could fill the bullets with OC powder to make the wounds hurt more.

I think next I may test whether or not filling the hollowpoint cavity with vaseline or wax or something will help it expand if the bullet hits clothing first.

Nick1911
June 8, 2006, 11:55 PM
I did potassium cyanide in a .22 hollowpoint once. It didn't hold a lot, but apparently it don't need to. Shot a feral dog in the butt with it, he ran about 50 yards yappin', stopped, stiffened, and fell over dead. That stuff works!

Out of curiousity, where on earth did you get potassium cyanide? I thought that was illegal to own in the usa...?

EddieCoyle
June 9, 2006, 01:34 AM
I do know of one individual who puts human feces in his HPs.

I won't shoot that crap out of my gun.

DBR
June 9, 2006, 02:49 AM
I believe one of the Marshall and Sanow (shudder) books showed some test results from "exploding" ammo. The conclusion IIRC was that the net effect when they worked was an earlier and more complete expansion. Probably better for the defender and the target.

mnrivrat
June 9, 2006, 02:59 AM
I do know of one individual who puts human feces in his HPs.

LOL !!

First , the image of the process is pretty funny, I've been in public rest rooms where it was obvious someone had trouble keeping the load within the size of the stool, so I'll give the guy credit for hitting the little hole in the hollow point !!! LOL !!!!!!! :evil:

Then I have the image of needing a can of lysol or something just to be around this guy when he is carrying a loaded gun !! :neener:

Sven
June 9, 2006, 04:06 AM
sniff sniff

'OK, WHOS CARRYING?' :)

Rectodynia
June 9, 2006, 04:29 AM
I see no gigantic problem with dispatching a DANGEROUS feral dog with a *humane* rapid kill with a shot to the head. To deliberately "shoot him in the butt" to hear him yelp and cry in pain, during your chemical toxin experiment is the most dispicable and cowardly, and sleazy act I have heard of in many moons. This is the type of act I found to be typical of the degenerate perverts, commonly referred to as 'antisocial' in the prison I observed last year.

You are the type that gives gunowners and even hunters a bad name to the nonshooting world.

Edited in order to maintain The High Road Mission statement.

Rectodynia

Rectodynia
June 9, 2006, 04:36 AM
MCgunner, I discovered I failed tomention your name in my previous post. Let there be no doubt as to who I am speaking about.

Rectodynia

MCgunner
June 9, 2006, 11:22 AM
Rectodynia, I'm not a wild dog lover. I lived in the country at the time and was always shooting dogs city folks dumped around my place to keep 'em out of my chickens. I have no great love for feral, wild dogs. Have a pack that comes around here on the outskirts of town, killed my cat and kittens a while back. I'm going to kill every danged one of them dogs and I hope they suffer cause I'm going to shoot 'em center mass with a CB short that won't likely take 'em down quickly, but is quiet since I'm in the city limits. They only come around here on occasion, but I'm locked an loaded for 'em.

I'm sorry if you love your poodle and don't have problems with wild dogs in your penthouse or whatever your problem is, but if you ever lived out in the country, you'd have little use for feral dogs, either. They're far more destructive than any coyote, wolf, or what not. They seem to have no problem killing just for the fun of it, my cat and a litter of kittens from my other cat that survived that episode are examples. I see a wild dog I shoot it. I really don't care if it suffers. You don't like that, I'm quite sorry. You can go tell your PETA friends I'm a jerk, don't really care.

MCgunner
June 9, 2006, 11:27 AM
Out of curiousity, where on earth did you get potassium cyanide? I thought that was illegal to own in the usa...?

I worked in chemical plant laboratories for many years as an analyst and research technician in process research, pilot plants. I had access to stuff you woundn't wanna be around. ;)

1911Tuner
June 9, 2006, 01:05 PM
Better jump in here and try to put out a couple fires before they conflag wildly.
(Is "conflag" a word?):scrutiny:

I can identify with both sides of this.

No secret that I'm a dyed-in-the-wool dog lover. Got 12 of'em to prove it.

I've also dealt with feral dogs, and...as MCGunner says...they're scary, destructive creatures that are a danger to livestock and people alike.
I too, have killed my share, and it was as much to end their suffering as anything else...but I feel that even with such animals...to
purposely cause undue suffering is just wrong. Kill the dog, yes...but kill it as quickly and as cleanly as possible.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled flame war.

Haymaker
June 9, 2006, 01:47 PM
For the toxic & legal side-effects = Not worth it.:uhoh:
My solution for "Loading" a HP is simpler, non toxic, and avilable in the field... :D
You feel the need to make some particular target 'splatter', load a HP cavity With CHAPSTICK! :evil: Any petroleum jelly will do, but a chapstick in your pocket arouses a lot less attention than 'toxic' substances:cool: = I've
terminated feril kitties on occasion with a .22Short modified on the spot for the job at hand.
Works...............:p

MCgunner
June 9, 2006, 01:47 PM
I can remember when I worked for Dow Chemical attending safety meetings where they showed us pictures of rabbits eyes who had been squirted with sodium hydroxide in the eyes and purposely blinded while alive just to take pictures for safety classes on eye protection. Man, if PETA ever got hold of THAT. ROFLMAO! That was in the late 70s when they were throwing blood on people wearing fir coats and stuff, before they got into vandalizing SUV dealerships. :rolleyes:

Those dogs come back, I'm layin' waste to 'em with no concern for their suffering since they didn't seem to care about my cat's suffering. Same for my laying hens I found laying dead in the pen after one of their attacks when I decided to do a little testing on that dog. I have no mercy for such animals. What I'd really like to have done is caught the $@^#% that dumped 'em out when they were puppies, but that's another story. I've owned and loved dogs and I own and love cats though I do kill feral cats from time to time. I leave 'em alone around the house cause they keep the rats down out back, but out on my place I kill 'em 'cause they're hard on the quail and dove population. They don't suffer much when a .308 spatter's 'em, though. ROFL!

Anyway, I'm off topic.

Coronach
June 9, 2006, 02:52 PM
I do know of one individual who puts human feces in his HPs. He figures that if the projectile doesn't kill the target, the resulting infection might.What an amazingly stupid idea.

Consider the differences between shooting to kill and shooting to stop. I know that, in general Gunshop Commando usage, the two seem almost inextricably intertwined, to the point that we're good for at least one full-on debate every 6 months about how the differences are "semantic" (hint: they aren't), but here is an instance where your friend has managed to separate the two concepts quite neatly.

Shooting someone is who is attacking you is shooting to stop (giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt). Shooting someone with (essentially) a poisoned bullet is most definitely shooting to kill. It is also quite probably illegal. It is most definitely stupid.

What if the target is not human? Then it is inhumane and cruel. If he really wants the animal dead, he should learn to aim better. Time spent shooting is probably better spent than filling little HP cavities with poop. Besides, I'd bet real money that it would not work, anyway.

I would even go so far as to say that feces coating a bullet is assinine.

Mike

PS Sorry. I had to... :neener:

mnrivrat
June 9, 2006, 03:13 PM
Going back to the original post I wonder first of all wether producing a bullet with a small explosive charge is legal today ?

With that in mind I had a friend that did this litte tick using a 158 grain .357 bullet of hard cast lead (SWC) and placing a small piece of stiff steel wire (a cut section from a blow dart) at the anvil of the small pistol primer to assure good ignition. One way was to also add bullseye , and another was to use two primers anvil to anvil.

Testing seemed to prove this worked quite well for a high degree of framentation on target. Penitration was also not bad as I recall (it's been a long time ago)

Correia
June 9, 2006, 03:26 PM
MCgunner, you should buy a suppresor. :)

I agree with Cor, the poop bullet is the single dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. And I guarentee that the user will end up going to jail, even if he shot Jack the Ripper.

MCgunner
June 9, 2006, 04:49 PM
I would even go so far as to say that feces coating a bullet is assinine.

:D Oh, that's bad, that's real bad...LOL!

I really haven't taken anything in this thread as serious self defense tactics. I wouldn't carry poop bullets, anyway. I mean, they'd attract flies and ruin my love life among other things. :banghead:

cpileri
June 9, 2006, 04:59 PM
From:
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane2.html

Dictator was a Russian stand-in: Bobrikov.

"Amongst the first pioneers of special-purpose handloading was the very most valiant National Hero of Finland, EUGEN SCHAUMAN, who executed detestable Russian governor-general NIKOLAY BOBRIKOV with an explosive (mercury-filled ?) bullet from his BROWNING pistol model 1900, and committed a suicide with next two shots, in the June 1904. Schauman died instantly. Bobrikov languished many long hours, moaning in Russian: "Pochemu..? Pochemu..?" ("Why..? Why..?")...
Governor-general Bobrikov was fully authorized dictator in Finland since 1903. Among his very first dictations was "A Gracious Act On The Registration And License-compulsion Of The Rifled Fire-arms". "

and from: http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA10.html
" Mercury-filled bullet of a .32 ACP Browning/ FN Model 1900 pistol had a remarkable role in Finnish history: A Russian Governor General and a Dictator over Finland, Nikolay Ivanovich Bobrikov, was wounded by the very most lethal projectile of .32 ACP in 16th June 1904. This bullet hit his belt buckle, but the mercury filling of it, along with the fragments of lead & mercury amalgam, and shrapnels of bullet point cover, an "amalgam powder" (mixture of silver, gold, copper and tin, bought from some dentist) were able to produce more than 140 tiny perforations to the small intestine of a Dictator Over Finland. Neither explosive shell nor "DumDum" bullet of .32 ACP is able to cause such injury...In 1904 the peritonitis was a definitely lethal sickness. Old dictator deceased in 17th June, about 3:00 a.m. His last words were: "Pochemoo? Pochemoo?!" ("Why? Why?!" in Russian ). I hope that millions or a billion hoplophobes on the world shall ask this same question, everywhere on the Globe, before their slow and very VERY painful death!"


HTH,
C-

Cosmoline
June 9, 2006, 05:05 PM
Putting feces, primers, mercury and whatever else bubba dreams up inside a HP is pretty much like putting a pointy stick on the underside of a 10 ton weight, so when you drop it on the guy he's going to be extra dead.

Way back when, small charges of black powder were placed on delayed detonation inside the tops of very large lead slugs, because the black powder in the cartridge could not get them moving fast enough to expand a HP on its own, at least not reliably. The charges helped open the HP, that's all. There is no longer any need to go to these lengths to expand HP's.

Clipper
June 9, 2006, 05:10 PM
...A poop-filled HP a 'dump-dum'?

...Lord, I apologize...:(

RyanM
June 9, 2006, 05:29 PM
That was the dictator. Thanks.

I think I actually will test the vaseline in bullets thing eventually. Need some denim first, since it seems like the main benefit is preventing the hollowpoint from clogging.

MCgunner
June 9, 2006, 06:07 PM
This thread reminds me of a piece in the infamous book a roomate in college had, "The Anarchist's Cook Book". It told of making an explosive bullet of a shotgun slug and a hollow cavity drilled in which antimony pentasulfide fills the cavity. Antimony Pentasulfide is the compound on a match head that strikes the fire, a percussion explosive. It was claimed in this book that a rhino was shot with an 80 caliber black powder elephant gun with such a bullet and it was blown into rhino cutlets. ROFLMAO! We would sit around trying to carve the white stuff off matches, never did get that to work. LOL I found a couple of sites where you can BUY the chemical, so I don't know if the old cookbook was BSin' or what, but don't really need to blow up any rhinos. ROFL!

RyanM
June 9, 2006, 06:15 PM
Then there's one where you fill an aluminum arrow shaft with black powder, glue a shotgun primer on the end in place of the arrowhead, and glue a .177 steel BB to the front of the primer.

Biker
June 9, 2006, 06:18 PM
So, y'all are saying that my buddy who loads up the Turdintor Bullets is full of it?
:cool:

Biker

RyanM
June 9, 2006, 07:29 PM
He's full of it, his ammo's full of it, and his gun is full of it! And he smells funny! :neener:

MCgunner
June 9, 2006, 07:35 PM
I rather liked those screw on explosive arrow heads Rambo had. That would make an impression on a BG. :D

lbmii
June 9, 2006, 10:18 PM
Ok someone out there fill some hollow points with petroleum jelly and shoot some balistic jello with it and post your results.

I think it is an urban myth.

Michael Courtney
June 10, 2006, 09:49 AM
Such experiments can make for a useful contribution to the knowledge base.

One needs to decide whether the primer and/or powder is being added simply to assist in expansion, or whether they want the primer/powder to actually add to the wounding and incapacitation effects.

It is well known that contact wounds produce much more wounding, so it stands to reason that once one is igniting 5-10 grains of powder as a payload that one stands a good chance of increasing wounding and incapacitation.

If I was going to experiment with this sort of thing, my first work would probably be with a shotgun primer, a copper bullet, and 5-10 grains of fast smokeless. There are two approaches I'd take to setting it off: 1) Shoot into gelatin. 2) Shoot primer with an air rifle (from a safe distance behing a shield, of course).

My initial guess is that this set-up would go off too early in the wound channel to be optimal and so I would have to set out to find a way to delay detonation until a more optimal penetration depth. A bullet carrying 5-10 grains of smokeless powder which detonated reliably at 6-8" of penetration would be very devestating.

Michael Courtney

RyanM
June 10, 2006, 01:59 PM
Ew. That could do a lot of damage, but the bullet itself wouldn't crush much, since it would need to be completely hollowed out to hold that amount of powder.

The most practical idea I've been able to come up with is a bullet with a very deep hollowpoint cavity, with a primer (anvil side up) at the bottom, and a small powder charge. On top of that is placed as many shotgun pellets as will fit (would need to experiment to determine the optimum shot size), then a rod with a wide flat end (shaped like a nail) is slid through the shot and powder charge until it touches the primer (kind of like a Prussian needle gun). On impact, the primer and charge go off and shoot the rod and shot into the target, kind of like a micro-shotgun. Then the bullet penetrates and expands normally through the "tenderized" tissue.

Some kind of delayed detonation, scaled down to the common calibers, would be very expensive in comparison.

MCgunner
June 10, 2006, 03:23 PM
I'm sittin' here wonderin' in an automatic, what happens when the nose of that bullet hits the feed ramp??? :what: Maybe revolver only???

lbmii
June 10, 2006, 04:22 PM
The nail firing pin you are describing would have a high impact energy into the primer when the bullet is fired.

The thing would blow up in the barrel.

nyresq
June 10, 2006, 05:35 PM
I think when I read the first post the theme from looney toones started playing in the background some where and I swear I heard someone say "Hey lookie here whut I dun wit dis here bullit. hold mah beer for a sec and check dis puppy out!!!"

RecoilRob
June 10, 2006, 11:03 PM
I've shot scads of primer-in-nose loads in 50 BMG...they are the most favoritest rounds available.

The Spotter-Tracer was used in a sub-power semi-auto gun mounted co-axially on the 106MM recoiless rifle. The short 50 case matched the ballistics of the Main Gun and was used to get the gun on target.

We load the projectiles over 175grns of 5010 for approx. 1750 fps and really enjoy the bright red trace and when they hit anything semi-solid and explode. Big BANG and puff of smoke.

Of course, they have a bunch of explosive material in the nose so it isn't a primer only round. Buying them online results in a Hazmat charge per 416 and the boxes have the neat EXPLOSIVE stickers on them.

Have split several trees with them and they DO make a LOT more damage than the standard rounds when they explode. Fun stuff!

aryfrosty
June 10, 2006, 11:45 PM
Hey....when we get tired of playing primer in the cavity can we try super glueing little ball bearings in there to make 'em really blow out and wound Elephants and Rhinos and all kinds of things?

I guess there's no end to human curiosity. My luck would be that they'd explode in the chamber and waste my hands and an expen$ive handgun.

Mannlicher
June 11, 2006, 12:42 AM
bucking for a Darwin Award?

nyresq
June 11, 2006, 02:53 AM
try super glueing little ball bearings in there to make 'em really blow out

like Glaser ammo???

aryfrosty
June 11, 2006, 08:54 AM
Not like Glasers at all. Glaser Blues have a copper cup with some sort of matrix holding very small shot. Silvers are the same with slightly bigger shot. The ball on the end of those sort of rounds is plastic and only protects the shot and allows it to feed in a pistol. The ball bearing rounds I actually saw a fellow carrying were simply half-jacketed hollow points with one steel bearing superglued in the cavity. There's one seldom considered part of jazzing up your carry ammo...one which you hope NEVER comes to pass. One of my instructors in the early years always cautioned us that we might wish to consider only carrying loads we wouldn't mind being shot with because that happened at times.

Rick O'Shea
June 11, 2006, 10:53 AM
A guy in a pawn shop not too long ago was telling me about primer-tipped bullets, and I thought he was making this stuff up...

In his story, his "friend" was using pistol primers on top of a little black powder in a lead .38 bullet to make "exploding tip bullets" for shooting at trees and such :rolleyes: .
The problem occurred when one of his handloads squibbed on him, and none of these geniuses could figure out how to knock the bullet back out of the barrel without "blowing the gun up".
He said they finally found some old copper tubing and got it out without contacting the primer.

I heard all this and just stood there quietly trying to decide whether to laugh or cry....


As for the feces hollowpoint, it might or might not work.
Basically a crapshoot.. (*ducks for cover*)

redranger1
June 11, 2006, 10:29 PM
You can fill the cavity with lead so that whoever is shot by it will get lead poisoning.:rolleyes:

Boom-stick
June 12, 2006, 08:19 AM
How about a turd filled, mercury bullet, with a primer in it's hollow point and you seat the primer by pushing the whole thing against your forehead really hard??:neener:


All I imagined with the turd bullets, is someone carrying them in revolver in a barrel down shoulder holster and the bullet contents running out of the chambers in the heat & down ya shirt:barf:

Dionysusigma
June 12, 2006, 09:22 AM
What about something like this?

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=41066&stc=1&d=1150114761
Not to scale or anything, just something I whipped up in Paint real quick.

Maybe the cavity could be filled with something--FFFg, Blue Dot, C4, another primer, feces, U-235, mashed potatoes, etc. ;)

Michael Courtney
June 12, 2006, 09:58 AM
Ew. That could do a lot of damage, but the bullet itself wouldn't crush much, since it would need to be completely hollowed out to hold that amount of powder.

It depends on the bullet you start with and the powder quantity. Nitrocellulose is about 10 times less dense than common bullet materials (lead/copper), so as a rule of thumb, you'd figure on removing 50-100 grains of bullet material to hold 5-10 grains of powder. It's a tight fit in a 9mm/.38, but there is plenty of room to spare in 45 caliber bullets. I guess the 45 might just be useful for something after all. :neener: :neener: :neener: :D :D :D

Michael Courtney

MCgunner
June 12, 2006, 10:36 AM
I guess the 45 might just be useful for something after all.

Yeah, and I hear you can machine wash and dry 'em 'cause they won't shrink, or something like that.:D

Cosmoline
June 12, 2006, 10:52 AM
The most practical idea I've been able to come up with is a bullet with a very deep hollowpoint cavity, with a primer (anvil side up) at the bottom, and a small powder charge. On top of that is placed as many shotgun pellets as will fit (would need to experiment to determine the optimum shot size), then a rod with a wide flat end (shaped like a nail) is slid through the shot and powder charge until it touches the primer (kind of like a Prussian needle gun). On impact, the primer and charge go off and shoot the rod and shot into the target, kind of like a micro-shotgun. Then the bullet penetrates and expands normally through the "tenderized" tissue.

But if you have an explosion within the bullet's nose and send shot out, there will be an equal and opposite reaction SLOWING THE BULLET DOWN and decreasing penetration, not increasing it :scrutiny:

RyanM
June 12, 2006, 11:41 PM
It depends on the bullet you start with and the powder quantity. Nitrocellulose is about 10 times less dense than common bullet materials (lead/copper), so as a rule of thumb, you'd figure on removing 50-100 grains of bullet material to hold 5-10 grains of powder. It's a tight fit in a 9mm/.38, but there is plenty of room to spare in 45 caliber bullets. I guess the 45 might just be useful for something after all.

I don't know if that's a good average, or if you mean with compressed powder, but I know with Power Pistol, 6.9 grains fills up a .40 cal case to about a millimeter below the point where the bullet is seated. About the same volume as the cylindrical portion of a 180 gr bullet.

------------------

But if you have an explosion within the bullet's nose and send shot out, there will be an equal and opposite reaction SLOWING THE BULLET DOWN and decreasing penetration, not increasing it

Not by much. I'm guessing about 25 grains of birdshot could fit in a drilled-out .40 cal, which would still penetrate and expand well. Velocity wouldn't be much better than 400 fps. With that momentum, if the bullet hits at 950 fps, the blast would slow it down to 894 fps. Not that much.

Pork Fat
June 14, 2006, 08:34 PM
I hope that one day when someone does a search on the origins of the term "turd bullet" they find this thread and give credit where it is due. I am proud to have witnessed it.

How long before Stoppage Clearing Drills involve Ex-Lax?

I'm sorry.:(

AK103K
June 14, 2006, 08:54 PM
I'm sittin' here wonderin' in an automatic, what happens when the nose of that bullet hits the feed ramp???
When we were kids, my dad's buddy from the service used to tell us they would drill out the nose of a standard GI .45 ball rounds and insert a .22 blank in the tip. He claimed they used to shoot them out of a Grease Gun. Sounded like a good good idea as a kid. As I got older, I realized he "might" have been pullin our dingers, as he still had all his fingers and a face. :)

Biker
June 14, 2006, 09:04 PM
Pork Fat, I'm currently working on the patent for the Turd Bullet. I was, after all, the inspiration.

Biker

aryfrosty
June 14, 2006, 10:39 PM
I think we've all lost our marbles...but that's OK. They were our marbles and we can lose 'em if'n we want to.

Zero_DgZ
June 15, 2006, 11:52 AM
Cripes, I thought I loaded some strange stuff but this thread takes the cake by far.

When I got my NEF break open (before I lost it again, but that's a different story) I got ahold of some empty hulls and tried loading some pyrotechnic stuff for the upcoming 4th.

Pyrotech is a bit of a calling of mine. Using techniques similar to those used in commercial aerial shells (lift chage, divider, delay fuse, casing, burst charge) I whipped up a handful of air break shells. They worked the same way as those drop-em-in-the-tube-and-light-em aerial shells you can buy for the 4th in some places, but you could fire 'em out of a shotgun. They had the added benefit of being able to run 'em through the pump gun quick smart (but they wouldn't cycle a friend's semi - not enough recoil, I guess).

All in all they actually had less explosive power than the powder in your usual trap load and the projectile was a heck of a lot lighter, so with their cardboard casings and such I figured even if one went off right in the barrel it would just chuck a bunch of paper scraps and burning stars out the barrel, like... well, like a shotgun. I never had one misfire, for what it's worth.

Arguably such a gizmo would be a Destructive Device in the eyes of the ATF. For that reason I don't do it anymore, not to mention the fact that my home state at the time had recently outlawed all pyrotechnics without the proper paperwork and hoops to jump through. Figured it was too much trouble and left it at that. It was fun, though.

I also tested the old shell-fulla-dimes thing (I used washers, they were cheaper) and concluded that garden variety buckshot would do a better job. I also kept those blasted varmits out of my garden with shells loaded up with just primers and a backwards shot cup, which gave 'em a little tap on the rear end but wouldn't actually do any damage. Also made minimal noise. I only did it because the only air rifle I had would have pinned 'em right to the nearest tree, and people got all uppity about killing anything furry where I used to live.

For daytime airsoft games I used to make custom 'flares' to launch out of my flare gun. Tricky thing is, if you launch a flare in a non emergency and emergency responders see it and deploy to your location to find nothing actually happening you can be charged with a crime. You're supposed to use white 'practice' flares, but they cost a bundle and can still set things on fire if you hit something going up or down. For signaling in the fields and woods I'd use a shell loaded with a little tiny powder charge and a shot cup with the leaves held together with a wrap of electrical tape. I filled 'em with brightly colored marking chalk (available at a hardware store near you in white, red, blue, neon orange, or yellow) and they'd make a big 'smoke' trail into the sky that was non-flammable and insofar as I know legal to be shooting off in the woods.

HankB
June 15, 2006, 04:30 PM
Explosive bullets aren't new - IIRC, one of the early elephant hunters - Sir Samuel Baker? - used a great big rifle (probably a 4-bore, though some claim it was a 2-bore) which fired an explosive round.

Some years back I encountered an "inventor" at the range who was shooting his own explosive bullets. (This was around the time "Exploder" and "Devastator" rounds were introduced.)

He was putting a primer in the nose of a drilled-out hollowpoint, but was also taking apart more primers, scraping out the priming compound, and stuffing it into the cavity. IIRC, he said he was using at least 30 primers per round.

They made a satisfying "bang" when they hit the steel backstop at the range . . . but I declined his offer to try a few in my own guns. (He still had both eyes, and wasn't missing any fingers, so maybe it wasn't quite as dangerous as I supposed.)

A good 30 years ago I also remember seeing - as reloading components - "Mer-Cor" bullets. These appeared to be ordinary jacketed bullets, sealed with what looked like a glob of asphaltum. There were only a handful in each package, they contained mercury, and were probably made locally, maybe even by the gun shop's owner. Forget the cost, but my father and I both thought they were rather pricey at the time. (We didn't buy any.)

Hmmm . . . if you simply added mercury to a lead core hollowpoint, wouldn't the metals tend to form an amalgam?

Now we have the fecal bullet . . . which joins this: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE2D81639F93BA1575BC0A962958260

barnetmill
June 15, 2006, 06:35 PM
I once tried attaching with glue large rifle primers to the flat nose of .22 cal pellets and firing them in a crossman pellet gun. When striking wood they would not go off, but would when striking an empty metal can. Decided not too experiment further due to the danger of a fragment coming back to hit me. In a pellet gun a small explosive charge would greatly increase killing power.

By the way, the US Army during the civil war did issue as I recall a 300 grain .58 slug that had fulminate cap and black power charge to do in munition stores. I also think that there were some metallic blackpowder express rounds that had explosive loads, but I am not very sure about that.

Biker
June 15, 2006, 08:22 PM
HankB...

When I market the fecal bullet, I plan on labeling it the Turdinater.

On a serious note, I know we have some medical type folks here. Could enough fecal matter be secured in a large hollowpoint to infect a non fatal wound?

Biker

1911Tuner
June 15, 2006, 08:33 PM
Biker asked:

>On a serious note, I know we have some medical type folks here. Could enough fecal matter be secured in a large hollowpoint to infect a non fatal wound?<
***********

Oh yeah. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Brother, if you can contract Hepatitis C from a smidgen of turd off the fingernail of a sick fry cook at the local greasy spoon, you can get all kinda unpleasant things from a hollowpoint fulla the stuff.

No medical background here...but I did sleep with a nurse at a Holiday Inn once...(Late December back in '63...Sweet surrender, what a night!):D

Biker
June 15, 2006, 08:46 PM
My wife is a Nurse...heeeyyyy.:cuss:

Biker

roscoe
June 16, 2006, 03:41 AM
I also tested the old shell-fulla-dimes thing
That is for werewolves.

EddieCoyle
June 16, 2006, 08:51 PM
On a serious note, I know we have some medical type folks here. Could enough fecal matter be secured in a large hollowpoint to infect a non fatal wound?

My ex-wife is a microbiologist, and at 7:30PM EDT I asked her this question. She said, "It depends on the turd. One of yours would without question."

Biker
June 16, 2006, 09:10 PM
Eddie, your wife just made me laugh so hard...Lord.

Biker

EddieCoyle
June 16, 2006, 09:23 PM
Eddie, your wife just made me laugh so hard...Lord.


Ex-Wife.

aryfrosty
June 16, 2006, 10:47 PM
I think it's time we gave this up as the unanswerable question of life and went shooting......:D

Michael Courtney
June 17, 2006, 08:45 AM
I don't know if that's a good average, or if you mean with compressed powder, but I know with Power Pistol, 6.9 grains fills up a .40 cal case to about a millimeter below the point where the bullet is seated. About the same volume as the cylindrical portion of a 180 gr bullet.

Most nitrocellulose powders have density comparable with water, which is 9 times less dense than copper and 11 times less dense than lead. There is some variation in powder density, but a factor of 10 is a good rule of thumb.

From your description, it seems like power pistol is considerably less dense than most other powders. (Some of the newer powders are intententionally made less dense to fill cases more completely for more consistent ignition and burning.) I have no trouble at all putting over 11 grains of Blue Dot in a .357 Sig case without compressing the powder.

The most practical idea I've been able to come up with is a bullet with a very deep hollowpoint cavity, with a primer (anvil side up) at the bottom, and a small powder charge. On top of that is placed as many shotgun pellets as will fit (would need to experiment to determine the optimum shot size), then a rod with a wide flat end (shaped like a nail) is slid through the shot and powder charge until it touches the primer (kind of like a Prussian needle gun). On impact, the primer and charge go off and shoot the rod and shot into the target, kind of like a micro-shotgun. Then the bullet penetrates and expands normally through the "tenderized" tissue.

Momentum conservation may slow the bullet more than your simple recoil calculation suggests because of the jet effect of the primer detonation and powder burn. You've definitely got a design that is interesting, but simple estimates of mow much momentum conservation may slow the bullet are unlikely to be accurate. Knowing with any certainty how much this bullet will penetrate would require shooting some into gelatin.

Perhaps another approach to packing more energy into the projectile would be to fill a hollowed the bullet with nitrocellulose (or some other rocket fuel) and design the bullet so that the fuel is ignited when the cartridge is fired and is designed like a minature rocket to continue accelerating after it leaves the barrel. Rifle velocities might be obtainable for flight distances sufficient for a complete burn. For shorter flight distances, you'd get the pressure and gas volume released inside of the wound (just like contact wounds).

Michael Courtney

WhoKnowsWho
June 17, 2006, 02:05 PM
Geez, I thought I had seen all the strange threads I could see...:D

RyanM
June 17, 2006, 02:46 PM
Perhaps another approach to packing more energy into the projectile would be to fill a hollowed the bullet with nitrocellulose (or some other rocket fuel) and design the bullet so that the fuel is ignited when the cartridge is fired and is designed like a minature rocket to continue accelerating after it leaves the barrel. Rifle velocities might be obtainable for flight distances sufficient for a complete burn. For shorter flight distances, you'd get the pressure and gas volume released inside of the wound (just like contact wounds).

Hm. That could be a very interesting design if it could be made with a hollowpoint with a bottom thick enough to contain the burn, but thin enough to rupture on impact with a soft target. At longer ranges, the velocity is increased. At shorter ranges, approximately half the remaining fuel is directed forwards, into the target. That'd require a tube-shaped block of propellent which burns from the center to the outer walls, not a disk or cylinder which burns from the base to the middle. Not hard to do, I don't think.

I think that would be a lot more effective than the extra wounding effect of the gas being released from the back of the bullet, within the wound.

P95Carry
June 17, 2006, 06:32 PM
Quite frankly we are treading into realms bordering on illegal and at very least far from sensible and High Road.

If you enjoyed reading about "The reality of putting a primer inside a bullet" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!