[sierrabravo45]

http://www.idahopress.com/art/photos/wolfattack.jpg

Here is the link to the story:

http://www.idahopress.com/articles/2006/06/08/news/news3.txt


GRANGEVILLE Hello. My name is Scott Richards. I have lived in Grangeville for the last 17 years. I have enjoyed training my hunting dogs for the past 34 years.

To do this it takes a great deal of love for your dogs and for the great outdoors. I have always prided myself in the manner of which I train my dogs and take care of them. When I choose a new pup, he or she spends the first 6 months in my house. He or she is loved and a bond is there forever.

I do not believe there are bad dogs, just inexperienced owners. I have spent the last four years trying to introduce this sport to as many young people as I can. My photo albums are full of pictures with children sitting under a tree with the dogs, telling them they did a good job.

That has all changed now.

The reason I am writing this story is not to debate whether the Canadian gray wolf should be or should not be here. I am not going to debate anyone about how many wolves are really in the state of Idaho. I will say our elk, moose and deer populations are in serious trouble now.

The real reason I am telling this story is that I have a conscience, and what happened to my dogs and me Wednesday, May 24, at 9:45 a.m. might open a few eyes.

Its been a few days now, and the shock has turned from fear to disbelief to anger, and now the major concern for the safety of anyone who lives in or visits our state. My life that I have loved raising and training these special working dogs is now over.

Crying wolf

This Wednesday morning started like most days when I train dogs. I was a few miles from my house and turned up the hill on the Service Flats Road. I let my dogs out of the box, jumped into my truck and followed them up the road for a mile, letting them clean out. I had eight dogs with me, and seven of them were very experienced 2, 3 and 4-year-olds. I had one five-month-old pup.

I loaded four dogs on top of the box and four inside the box. I did not have to drive far, and the dogs sounded off, letting me know a bear had crossed the road.

My friend, Bryon, had driven up from Lewiston to train some of his young dogs.

I turned out a 4-year-old named Jasper. He left the road and let me know the track was fresh. I told Bryon to turn his dogs loose as did I. They quickly dropped into a canyon, where bears hang in the brushy bottoms in daylight hours.

When all the dogs reached the bottom, five went up the other side of the canyon headed toward Fish Creek campground. The other group of dogs came right back up the hill to us. They put the bears in a tree 20 minutes later.

The other group of dogs treed about the same time about 1 1/2 miles away. Bryon and I went to the nearest dogs first. When we were under the tree, we found they had a mature sow and a 2-year-old cub. We took a few pictures and were back in the trucks ready to go to the other dogs.

We drove back up to where we heard the group of five dogs top over and shortly thereafter tree the bear. We checked where the dogs still had the bear treed. We drove as close as we could and stopped and listened.

They were about 400 yards away, treeing solid. I made the decision to move the truck 200 yards to the low side of the saddle; this would be an easy way back with the dogs. When Bryon and I crested the hill, instead of hearing a roar of barking dogs treeing, we heard nothing. We were looking at each other like, Where did they go? We just heard them there five minutes ago.

One dog barked, and another barked just 50 yards away. I said to Bryon that neither of the dogs we heard sounded like any of our dogs. He agreed. Then I heard a dog bark that I knew was mine, but at the end of his bark there was a sharp yelp. Bryon and I headed down the hill in a hurry about 75 yards apart.

About 300 yards down the hill I was stopped dead in my tracks by a big dark-colored wolf. Blackey, my dog, was getting attacked; I was 20 yards away now and closing fast, screaming and yelling as I ran. I stopped at about 12 feet from the wolf, and even though I was screaming and waving my arms, the wolf did not break from the attack. Every time Blackey tried to run, the wolf would sink his teeth into Blackeys hindquarters.

All the while I was screaming louder than I ever screamed in my life. Without any thought I picked up a 4-foot stick, stepped toward the wolf, swung and hit a tree. When the branch went crack and the tree went thud, the wolf instantly lunged at me.

I remember thinking I was going to die.

I ran from tree to tree straight up hill toward my truck. When that wolf lunged at me, I believed I would have been seriously hurt or dead if not for Blackey. I did not see what took place, but what I heard was my dog giving his life to save me.

As I reached the truck, Bryon was digging around in his truck for a gun. As I ran up he started yelling, We got wolves. I was trying to listen to him as I was searching for a gun as I took my pistol in my hand and turned toward Bryon.

When I looked into his eyes I realized I was not the only one threatened by wolves. We headed back down to see if we could save Blackey, Lady or Halley, but there was no sound. I wanted to hear a bell dingle or a bark, but nothing. As Bryon and I hurried back to the truck to get my tracking box, I finally understood that Bryon was able to fight off three wolves and save two dogs. Snyper and Bullet were safe in the dog box with no life-threatening injuries.

With the tracking box in hand, I tuned in on Ladys tracking collar and said to Bryon, Not Lady, not Lady, but I knew she was dead. Then I tuned to Blackey and told Bryon that Blackey was dead, and then I tuned in Halleys collar. One beep every four seconds that means all three dogs had not moved for at least five minutes. All dead.

I was just standing there in shock.

We decided to look for Halley first. We were getting real close; the receiver was pegging the needle. I knew that with a few more steps I would be looking at one of my babies.

My heart skipped a beat when Halleys tree switch went off. I didnt know if she was alive or if a wolf was dragging her off. We ran the direction the needle was pointing, and in a few yards there she was.

She was trying to get up; her stomach was ripped open and her guts were hanging out a foot. She had more than 60 bite marks and deep gashes all over her body. Her stomach was torn in multiple spots.

Bryon went into action. Of came his shirt, and we wrapped it tightly around her stomach. I carried her back to Bryons truck and put her in the front seat; Brian headed for the vets. I remember thinking I wouldnt see Halley alive again.

I started tracking Blackey next; it did not take long to find him. He wasnt far from where the wolf came after me. He was dead and lying in a pool of his own blood. He was bit and torn so full of holes that I just fell to the ground bawling and crying. I could not quit thinking, He gave his life to save me.

I was sitting there when it hit me: Lady! Id better get to Lady. When I tuned her in, I knew she was within a 100 yards. I lined up with her collar, and the next thing I knew there she was in a heap, her eyes wide open, looking straight into my eyes. For one second I thought she might be alive. When I knelt down beside her, I knew she was dead.

Its very difficult to describe the type of death these dogs were handed. It was easy to see that the wolves want to cripple their prey, torture it and then kill it. I have never seen a worse way for any animal or person to die.

I made it back to town and took care of my dogs who made it through this nightmare that happened in the light of day. Then I headed to see if Halley needed to be buried.

When I walked into the veterinarians office, I was greeted with, Did you find the rest of your dogs? I tried to say they were all dead, but I could not get the words out; all I could do was cry.

After a few minutes standing alone, I heard a voice behind me say, Halley is still alive; do you want to see her? I instantly headed for the back room, and when I turned the corner I saw this little black ball covered in stitches swollen twice her normal size.

I stopped and said out loud, Oh my God, Halley, what have they done to you? When she heard me say her name, she lifted her head, whined and waged her tail. I kneeled down, held her and comforted her the whole time wondering if she was the lucky one, or were Blackey and Lady the lucky ones? When I looked into her eyes it was easy to see the only reason she was still alive: the wolf had choked her out.

Her eyes were full of blood; they had left her for dead. The doctor said it was a miracle she was alive at all. Her lungs were badly damaged, but what most concerned us all was infection from all the tears and bites.

I knew this little dog had more heart and desire than a 1,200-pound grizzly bear, and yet was as gentle with my granddaughters as my chocolate lab. If it were just a fight with infection, she would win.

On the way home I called the Idaho Fish and Game to report what had happened. They were very understanding, and I could tell they were sincere when they said they were sorry for my loss. They also made it clear there was nothing they could do for me and that their hands were tied. They said they would write the report and call a federal agent.

Justin, the government trapper, contacted me by phone and arranged to meet me at first light. We were at the site of the attack early the next morning. We went to the site where I had laid Lady in the shade.

She was gone without a trace.

I took Justin to where Blackey was laying, and he had also disappeared. We searched around and found nothing. About that time a crow down below me called three times, so we walked toward the sound.

It did not take long before we were standing over the remains of the dog that saved me from harm. All that was left of him was his head and backbone. Had we been an hour later, there would have been nothing left of him.

We had spooked the wolves off while they were finishing their prey. In five hours all we found of Lady was a pile of fresh wolf scat full of white, brown and black dog hair. Lady was a tri-colored walker that color.

Justin and I buried what was left of Blackey. We piled heavy stones on his grave, and I walked away thinking that it could have been me. I could have been just a pile of wolf scat lying on the ground and leaving people to wonder where I had disappeared to.

I couldnt help but think of the 22-year-old man who was killed and eaten by wolves in Canada this winter. Theres been a slaughter on hound dogs and pets in Idaho, and it is getting worse daily. I have been assured that if these wolves kill any cows, sheep, goats, pigs or horses, they will become a problem and will be dealt with, and the owners will be compensated.

Thats a relief.

Dogs have no value to anyone in the government, it seems.

So what I love to do is over; I will not send another dog to slaughter or feed another starving wolf pack. My concerns now are that the wolves are running out of easy prey and are now eating dogs.

In wet, muddy areas where elk and moose have always been plentiful, I no longer can find even a track.

Perhaps aliens took them off to a safer planet. I hope you did not find that funny.

This is the first documented case in Idaho where wolves have eaten a dog after killing it. The real reason I had to write this story is public safety.

The general public is unaware of the danger that awaits them. Since I retired, I have spent no less than four days a week in the mountains. What has amazed me are how many of these wolves are right around peoples homes. When they are out of easy prey, be ready.

For as long as I can remember, when you were in the mountains for any reason, a dog by your side was a great defense to warn you of predators. I used to believe in this. But now a dog is nothing more than bait to lure wolves.

Recently, while cougar hunting, an associate of mine, who is a licensed guide like myself, had a wolf encounter. He was cougar hunting with a dog on a leash when three wolves charged up on him. With waving arms and a screaming voice, he was able to persuade them to leave, but what if they had been a little hungrier? Your natural instinct will be to defend your companion. I am not saying you should leave your friend at home, but be prepared.

Put a bell or a beeper on him or her so you know where they are at all times.

The most important thing, in my opinion, is to pack a firearm. I personally believe pepper spray will not work in a pack attack. Keep your dogs quiet when you are walking no barking. If they are tied up in camp, no barking. And dont let your children play with your pets and have them barking while theyre playing.

My personal belief is that the war has been lost. Its too late to save our big-game herds in my lifetime.

What I have loved to do for most of my life is over, so enjoy it while you still can. Be prepared. I pray you never encounter a pack of Canadian gray wolves.

What do you think?

Whats your reactions to the reintroduction efforts of wolves into Idaho and the western states?

Send your letters to:

Idaho Press-Tribune

P.O. Box 9399

Nampa, ID 83652

[Double Naught Spy]

You know how it is. You train a predator to help you hunt and then you cry when another predator comes along and hunts your predators.

If he is so concerned about his dogs, maybe he should keep them in sight better than just letting them loose to roam and chase. Just because bears may turn tail does not mean he has been sufficient as a dog trainer in letting them roam on their own.

Wolves eat. Scott trains his dogs to chase other animals, such as bears, tree them, remain on station until he arrives, barking the entire time. Translation to other predators such as wolves, "We are a bunch of stupid citified dogs with no gun toting master around and we have treed a bear and will keep yelling until our master comes and hope that in the meantime that we aren't calling out to other predators that the dinner bell has rung and that they won't attracted to our sounds that give the impression we are a bunch of weak, wounded animals as no predators in the wild waste time and energy screaming at the top of their lungs like we do because they don't want to be eaten either."

I am sorry for his loss, but there are inherent risks in letting your hunting dogs run wild, knowing you have taught them to NOT be aggressive to kill game, helping make them tender vittles for real predators like wolves.

[PinnedAndRecessed]

Are wolves protected? Is that the problem? They are decimating the wild game herds because the (idiot) feds say you can't shoot them?

If that's the case, then it's time to repeal that idiotic law. In fact, it's time to repeal environmentalism.

Gators are eating Floridians. But Floridians can't defend themselves cause of the idiot lawmakers.

Mountain lions are eating Californians. But Californians can't eliminate the problem because Sacramento is more concerned about the enviroNazis than human life.

And in Idaho, the wolves which, IIRC, were reintroduced into that area by the feds, are tearing everything up.

maybe he should keep them in sight better than just letting them loose to roam and chase

The article points out that the wolves feel comfortable in urban settings.

What has amazed me are how many of these wolves are right around peoples homes.

Since the wolves are coming onto residential property, it's unreasonable to require the homeowners to lock up their dogs/animals.

Again, if the article is bemoaning the protected status of wolves, then I think he's right. Wolves weren't almost eliminated for nothing, you know.

[Dr.Rob]

?? treeing bears without a firearm? Were they hunting or not?

Wolves kill and (sometimes) eat dogs because they are the same animal in the same habitat (and to the wolf) vying for the same resources. Wolves from rival packs kill each other too.

Sorry to read about this guy's dogs but assigning anthropomorphic adjectives like 'cruel' and this statement: "wolves want to cripple their prey, torture it and then kill it." Guess what, when your house cat is teaching its young to hunt it will maim a prey animal to let its young finish it off.

Humans tend to forget that while we are at the top of the food chain most days, we are not unconnected from it.

[ID_shooting]

This guy shares the same feelings about the wolfs a good chunk of us from Idaho have.

I have no use for wolfs, especially a non-native variety. My great-great garndfather wiped out the wolfs that were here for a reason. I was and am still opposed to the reintroduction. I can't remember where the paper is located, but a wildlife student from BSU put out a paper a few years back comparing the historical records of the native wolfs to those of the Canadian wolfs.

The dogs that used live in our area were closer to that of the southern US/northern Mexico wolf. 50 pounds lighter and much less agressive.

For me, it is S,S, and SU.

[Sgt Stevo]

I train dogs for a living. LE dogs mostly. Just to have too put an old one that is sick down. Is crushing for me.

To lose them this way is brutal. I Just lost a 14 year sch.111 dog I started my career with.

I understand. I think mabe you should look into a dog that will protect your hounds until you can get to them.

Like a big fila from Brazil. I can help if want.

stay frosty. And vote to get seasonon these things. www.cooperhaus.com. Thats me in trainining with max. I am the bald one.

[Stormin n]

First observation: I hear the term "decimating game" quite a bit, but that was part of the rational for re-introducing predators in to their original habitat. Overpopulation by game species, resulting in large die-off due to drought/disease. Or is starvatiuon/chronic wasting disease better than feeding woves?. I have not seen any stats to back up this so called devistation. There are domestic animals killed, and most of these are compensated.

Obs. #2: Ammusing oneself by harasing game (bears) is not much of a sport.

Obs #3: When you are in the woods/predator habitat, use your head, keep dogs/kids on a short leash and pack a gun. I would no more send my dogs out in the woods unsupervised than I would send my 6 year old son.

[Cosmoline]

They quickly dropped into a canyon, where bears hang in the brushy bottoms in daylight hours

OK, you set some newbie hunds out into a known bear area, hoping to train them to tree bears. But where was his rifle? Something about this story seems very odd. He's expecting train inexperienced dogs to deal with a lethal predator but he runs out to the alarmed barking with no iron at all. He has to supposedly go back and get his firearm which is buried in the truck after seeing wolves (supposedly) eating his dogs, and then all he has is a pistol. A pistol for bear hunting, not a hunting revolver or rifle?? He's either a complete idiot or he's BS'ing in order to explain why there's no wolf body with dog meat in its belly.

One dog barked, and another barked just 50 yards away. I said to Bryon that neither of the dogs we heard sounded like any of our dogs.

WOLVES DO NOT BARK, at least not like a dog does. A wolf "bark" does not sound like a stranger's dog.

Do I doubt that wolves or large coyotes would challenge domestic dogs and eat them? No, not at all. Coyotes get a lot of dogs and cats every year. But wild wolves are deeply wary of men, and in this case they supposedly showed no fear at all. We have many thousands of them up here, and while we get plenty of bear attacks and charges, WOLF attacks on man, or even close range sightings, are extremely rare. The only known bite came from a wolf in SE some idiots had been feeding. They don't like being near people, and if they do attack dogs or livestock you'll rarely see it happen.

Basically, if these animals were barking and showing no sign of fear, I suggest they were large feral dogs. Either that or we have another "KILLER BEAR" story spun off of some internet photos. I suppose it's possible this fellow just happened to let his dogs loose right smack in the middle of a pack, but if he did it's his fault.

I guess up here we don't view the woods as a sort of parkland, like the people from Idaho apparently do. There are many things out there that can and will kill you and your dogs. Personally I prefer it that way. A wilderness with no teeth isn't a wilderness. And I think our grandfathers made a huge mistake civilizing the US. I don't want this country to become a clone of Europe. I want it to remain lethal, so we never forget that life is walking on a razor's edge. People who grow up removed from the great predators are prone to either think they're big cuddly bears like Treadwell and his followers or demonize them into incarnations of evil. In truth they are neither. They are what they are. Once you understand that, and learn to respect it, I think you learn a lot more about the world itself.

But if the folks in Id don't want wilderness, then so be it. I think we should reintroduce brown bear and wolves into California first, as the need for a dose of reality there is greatest.

[Sgt Stevo]

:uhoh: You guys are harsh! I dont walk around the silicon valley hills with nothing. And all we have is coyotes and the rare big cat.

But I dont think this dude beheaded his own dog, but who knows.

[Sharps Shooter]

The following passage is from author John Murray’s book The Great Bear: Those who have packed far into grizzly country…know that the presence of even one grizzly on the land elevates the mountains, deepens the canyons, chills the wind, brightens the stars, darkens the forests, and quickens the pulse of all who enter it.

Cosmoline, there is no reason to insult me by categorizing all Idahoans as thinking and acting like the guy who wrote that article for a newspaper. Personally, I was all for wolf reintroduction in Idaho, just like I was for grizzly reintroduction in the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness. Though I felt Gale Norton and Chris Servheen’s idea that the reintroduction of grizzlies in the Selway-Bitterroot region would somehow provide a link for the grizzlies in the Yellowstone Ecosystem to the grizzlies in the Selkirk Mountains of northern Idaho was ludicrous. It doesn’t make any difference now. Idaho’s ex-governor Dirk Kempthorn, the same one who filed suit against the Clinton Administration over the grizzly bear question has now replaced Gale Norton as Secretary of Interior. The plans for grizzly reintroduction in the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness have been shelved and I doubt it will be brought up again in my lifetime.
Getting back to wolves, like I said, I was all for their reintroduction. Another Idahoan participating in this thread said his great-grandfather helped in wiping out the wolves in Idaho for a reason. Well so did mine, as did my grandfather. My grandfather’s reason was a bounty. I’m sure those gold miners that left that huge mess up on the Yankee Fork of Idaho’s Salmon River had even bigger reasons. I’ve seen very little of Alaska, but I’m sure you know of animals or places there that have been severely harmed by the intrusion of human beings.
I fear I’m starting to sound like an environmentalist, animal-rights wacko. I’m not. I’m only environmentalist enough to know that there aren’t any more wildernesses being created so we have to take care of what we have left. I love to hunt and if there’s getting to be too many wolves to be healthy for our big game herds I’m in favor of opening a season on them.
However, I don’t put much stock in what that guy who wrote that article for the newspaper said. I mean after all – here’s a guy who approaches a treed bear without a gun and whines “Dogs have no value to anyone in the government, it seems.” Who does he think puts money in the “government’s” pocket? Does he expect me to pay because he chooses to let his dogs chase bears in an area where there is known to be wolves? You know, I had a beautiful Chesapeake Bay Retriever a few years back. He got ran over by a train. Compensation never even occurred to me – my dog was on railroad property. Yeah, it hurt. But it was my fault! I’m not sure about the elk and moose in the Grangeville area of Idaho (where the guy who wrote the article lives) but in other parts of the state, elk and moose are doing great. We are actually allowed 2 moose permits (1 bull and 1 cow) in a lifetime now. Before a couple of years ago it had been only 1 moose permit in a persons lifetime. Idaho’s mule deer herd still isn’t all that healthy due to a large winter die-offs back in the early 90s, but that had nothing to do with wolves. I don’t doubt that wolves are capable of “decimating” big game herds, I just wouldn’t take that guys word for what’s happening. And as far as compensating farmers and ranchers for their loss of livestock, if I were running the show those farmers and ranchers would be paying a lot higher fees for grazing their cattle on public land – land that belonged to wild animals in the first place.

[Creeping Incrementalism]

I think we should reintroduce brown bear and wolves into California first, as the need for a dose of reality there is greatest.

Don't people ever get tired of bashing California?

if I were running the show those farmers and ranchers would be paying a lot higher fees for grazing their cattle on public land – land that belonged to wild animals in the first place.

Humans are wild animals, too.

Does he expect me to pay because he chooses to let his dogs chase bears in an area where there is known to be wolves?

If he's been doing it for 34 years, the government is the one who ruined it by introducing Canadian wolves onto public land.

Obs. #2: Ammusing oneself by harasing game (bears) is not much of a sport.

First, he says he was training dogs, not merely harassing bears for idle amusement, and two, you are not the ultimate authority on what is sporting and what is not.

[Art Eatman]

Sharps Shooter, when you lease private lands, the owner provides the fencing (if needed), barns, corrals, loading chutes and water supply points.

When leasing federal lands, the leaseholder provides all these necessary items. That's why federal land lease values are low. The overhead is higher.

Art

[grimjaw]

Man goes bear hunting with bear rifle.

Dogs or no, doesn't seem like he was prepared. It also sounds like he knew wolves were becoming a danger *before* he was in the situation.

Sympathize with the guy's loss, but seems like he put himself in a situation for it.

jmm

[swampdog]

I found this story kind of strange, also. I've run bear with dogs. Larger bears don't always tree. Sometimes they'll bay up and swat the hell out of the dogs. I've seen dogs torn up badly. It can get pretty exciting.
The guys I know that run bear dogs are just as hard on their dogs as they are on the bears. Maybe they do things differently in Idaho, but I kind of doubt it. If some wolves did jump on my neighbor's pack of plott hounds, I bet it would be a shot up pack of wolves. Something just doesn't ring true about this story. I don't think that seeing a couple of his dogs messed up would put a real bear hunter off running dogs but maybe the bear hunters in Idaho are more sensitive or something.

I feel sorry about him losing his dogs, but bear hunting is a dangerous sport, for the dogs anyway. Maybe he should train them to chase frisbees or something. I've got a couple of labs I love. They're part of the family. I don't chase bears with them, though.

The only wolves we have around here are the red wolves that they have been trying to reintroduce. I have a friend in Creswell that shot one in his chicken pen. I guess wolves will act like wolves.

[H&Hhunter]

HEY GUYS!!! HAVE ANY OF YOU ARMCHAIR EXPERTS EVER HEARD OF PURSUIT SEASON????:banghead: :mad: :cuss:

Apparently NOT!

That is a season, usually in the spring that is set aside for the pursuit only of bears with dogs for the purpose of training bear dogs. The bear is not killed but only treed and then let loose. In case some of you guys didn’t know it hound hunting is one of the only forms of catch and release hunting on the planet. The hounds men is NOT allowed to carry a firearm during pursuit only season although many do for obvious reasons but they risk a fine by doing so. The hounds men will use older dogs mixed in with younger dogs. The older dogs do much of the training of the younger dogs once a scent is hit.

Doublenaught writes,
If he is so concerned about his dogs, maybe he should keep them in sight better than just letting them loose to roam and chase. Just because bears may turn tail does not mean he has been sufficient as a dog trainer in letting them roam on their own.


Dear Mr spy,

This may be one of the ALL time most ignorant statements ever written on this or ANY hunting forum in existence. You sir have OBVIOUSLY never hunted bear or cat behind hounds. And while that doesn't stop you from posting like you do have some knowledge if you had even the slightest idea of what you were talking about you'd realize just how ridiculous that statement was. Hounds do not stay in sight of the hunter after "striking" a solid scent. Once a solid scent is hit the dogs take off in pursuit and you may not see them again for many many hours.

Which brings us into point of fact number two.

Since there is no possible way of keeping pace with a pack of hot trailing hounds they have been bred to bark and bay loudly so that the hunter can locate them during the pursuit and after they tree an animal DUHHHH!!!!!:mad:

Which pretty much covers this little jewel that was also written by Doublenaught,

Wolves eat. Scott trains his dogs to chase other animals, such as bears, tree them, remain on station until he arrives, barking the entire time. Translation to other predators such as wolves, "We are a bunch of stupid citified dogs with no gun toting master around and we have treed a bear and will keep yelling until our master comes and hope that in the meantime that we aren't calling out to other predators that the dinner bell has rung and that they won't attracted to our sounds that give the impression we are a bunch of weak, wounded animals as no predators in the wild waste time and energy screaming at the top of their lungs like we do because they don't want to be eaten either."


Sir right here and right now you tell me what animal on this planet predator or not besides a pack of wolves will be attracted to a pack of baying hounds!

Double I have to ask you this public forum if you are a hunter , if you have ever hunted, and what are your true motifs in regards to posting on this forum? Some of the statements you’ve made in the past have got me thinking that there is something a little more sinister than just a name in regards to your handle. Are you or are you not an anti hunter. Because you sure as heck sound like one most of the time.


People who have drank the cool aid on these wolf reintroduction programs fail to see the big picture. This is the most effective anti hunting program ever devised and will effectively wipeout big game hunting in many areas of the United States

Wolves have been knocking the heck out of hunting dogs in many other areas too. This is nothing new. It doesn’t bother me that wolves have been reintroduced into several areas. Yellowstone being one of them. What does bother me is that the local citizens had no say in the process. That affected states do not have any oversight or management tools to control wolf populations. That these wolves remain federally protected once they leave their intended reintroduction areas. That people are not allowed to defend themselves or their property from wolves and are criminalized if they do. That the federal government has maintained draconian rules with regards to wolves and are generally acting like a bunch of oppressive leftist animal rights nazis in regards to the whole wolf program.

Some of you guys sound like a bunch of fuzzy legged tree huggers wearing stop the killing tee shirts standing in line to get into the re-elect bilHillary meeting!

I can't even believe some of the CRAP I'm reading here!

Cosmoline,

I agree with your premise about wild country and teeth. However having lived in AK for awhile I seem to remember many of the same arguments about wolves and I still hear them today in regards to big game population and in particular these arguments when Ak stopped aerial shooting of wolves.

Most pointedly Alaskans would FREAK out if the federal government decided to, without the approval of Alaskans reintroduce some animal into the state than declare it to be the holy grail of all animals which can never be managed by the human hand and not allow the state of AK to have any say in its management. And of course there is a hunting season on wolves in AK. That is all that Idaho residents are asking for at this point. A way to manage the burgeoning wolf population.

[Cosmoline]

Don't people ever get tired of bashing California?

My people have been doing it since the 19th century. It's really not something one ever grows tired of :neener:

Most pointedly Alaskans would FREAK out if the federal government decided to, without the approval of Alaskans reintroduce some animal into the state than declare it to be the holy grail of all animals which can never be managed by the human hand and not allow the state of AK to have any say in its management. And of course there is a hunting season on wolves in AK. That is all that Idaho residents are asking for at this point. A way to manage the burgeoning wolf population.


I know all about the current wolf controversy up here. I'm also willing to bet the decrease in their ranks in the afflicted GMU's will not increase moose populations. Bear get a lot more moose than people realize, as well as subsistence poachers.

As far as reintroduction, I sympathize with the frustration with the federales and their restrictions. But if the state's response would simply be to destroy all the wolves again what other choice is there? If Alaska started trying to destroy every last wolf in the state, I'd agree it was time for the feds to stop it with the ESA.

Is a new hunting season all they're asking for? It seems to me they want to drive them out again. At least that's the tone I picked up from the article.

[Sharps Shooter]

H&Hhunter, no I sure didn’t know that about the spring “pursuit only” bear hunts where the pursuers, or dog trainers, or whatever you call them are not legally allowed to carry guns. I’ve hunted bears during the spring season, though never behind hounds. I’ve never hunted anything behind hounds for that matter. Not that I’m against it – I’ve just never had the opportunity.
I believe you’re absolutely correct in your assessment that the main thing Idahoans were upset about with the “reintroduction” of wolves in Idaho is the fact that we had no say-so in the matter. And we continue to have no say in their management. Even though I personally was thrilled the first time I heard a wolf howl when my wife and I were backpacking up near Challis a few years ago, the fact remains Canadian wolves were forced upon us Idahoans by Bill Clinton and gang. Even the word “reintroduction” implies that Canadian wolves were here in the first place, which is of course absurd. It was an introduction, pure and simple.
I also made a misstatement in my original post about the so-called “reintroduction” of grizzlies into the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness of Idaho and Montana. I wrote that it was Chris Servheen and Gale Norton’s plan. Bruce Babbitt was Secretary of Interior under Clinton, and Gale Norton had the plan shelved when she took over as Secretary of Interior under Bush. Idaho’s former governor Dirk Kempthorn, who has now replaced Gale Norton, actually did file a suit against the Clinton administration over the grizzly bear question though.

[Art Eatman]

Even without the no-gun "Pursuit season": People have been hunting with dogs for centuries. Heck, didn't you guys ever read McKinlay Kantor's "The Voice of Bugle Ann" in school? One of the finest short stories ever written. And read Robert Ruark's "The Old Man and the Boy" and "The Old Man's Boy Grows Older".

Aside from hunt-and-kill, there is the music of listening to the dogs. For many, it's music more beautiful than any philharmonic symphony orchestra.

Any dog has to be trained, no matter the purpose. Training to hunt is no different a chore than house-breaking. Dogs aren't born knowing to not chase in and attack a bear or lion, just as they're not born knowing you don't want them to piddle on the carpet. They must be trained to stop and bark/bay at cornered critters. Slow learners can die--even when chousing feral hogs.

Wolves are not stupid. If they're not themselves "attacked" by people, they quickly lose all fear of people. No different from the behavior of cougars in sacrosanct areas such as national parks or California. A predator without fear is indeed dangerous to whatever they think is edible.

I've only seen one wolf, and he was stuffed and mounted in the window of a gunstore in Detroit. This was in 1963. His forelegs were about the same diameter as my forearms. Overall, I'd bet that alive and on the paw, he must have weighed around 140 pounds or so. Dunno; maybe more. Any way you hack it, he was for sure a serious critter.

I'm part of nature. I've felt that way for over sixty years, and I've yet to hear a convincing argument from Ingrid Newkirk or Wayne Purcelle to make me think otherwise. I get a serious case of the chapped whatzit at the (bleeping) idea that any animal has more man-given rights than I do when it comes to survival. (IMO, animals don't have rights. People have responsibilities toward them. Dogs, cows, birds, wolves...)

Rant mode off. For a moment.

Art

[mikeb3185]

i am a dog owner, althogh i have never lost a dog especially in that maner, and i can understand your pain. the thought of losing my dog is something i dont even think about. your story has reminded me of why i carry whenever i take my dog in the woods. i live in a city, but do have a hunting cabin that we frequent. everytime i go in the woods i will think of your story, so know your dogs did not go in vein. my condolences to you.

[eastwood44mag]

First it will be someone's dogs. Then someone's child. And no one will care.

Then a Senator's child will be killed by wolves, and suddenly real action will be taken.

I'd sooner be judged by 12 than eaten by them.:fire:

[birddog]

H & H,

Thanks for your post. I have been silently banging my head over this thread for two days. I simply didn't know where to start. I've never seen such an anti-hunting crowd of gun owners in my entire life. I love this place, but threads like this make my blood boil.

Nice job in breaking down the idiocy into digestible, confrontable bits. Threads like this just boggle the mind and give me little hope for the future of hunting if this is how a bunch of gun owners respond to the idea of hunting with hounds. What's next, bird dogs? I know I know...I've already gotten the nasty emails, like when my last book came out.

:banghead:

[Cosmoline]

Who's anti-hunting? I'm against sending your novice dogs out into the woods to search for bear then acting surprised and having to scout around for a *pistol* when the dogs actually find something out there that fights back. Whether it was a bear, feral dogs or Canadian wolves that killed the dogs, any fault or responsibility is with the owner alone. What kind of nut tries to hunt BEAR without any iron in his hand? Moreover, if he's not actually hunting bear, the decision sending dogs out to chase them out of season for "training" is harassment of wildlife. At least it is up here. The "pursuit season" sounds like an extremely stupid idea. If the fellow really can't carry a firearm while his dogs chase down a black bear, which happens to be one of the only animals in North America which ACTUALLY HUNTS HUMANS, then the law is patently insane and he should either break it or not participate. If the law actually does forbid carrying arms, then the problem is not with the federales but with the boneheads at Idaho F&G who drafted that reg. I don't even HIKE in bear country without iron, let alone hunt the buggers. And it isn't the brown ones that keep darting out in front of me and eyeing me up, its cute little blackie.

The fellow got used to treating the woods as his own park. Well he got nailed. Whether it's feral dogs or wolves or a sudden snow storm or getting lost or whatever, that's what happens when you let you get too casual.

[Art Eatman]

Cosmoline, I imagine this guy, like most folks, acted upon past experience. If you've been training your dogs in this manner for some years, you have certain expectations as to bear behavior. If the regulations say, "No guns," then you're stuck. And, per the story, it wasn't the bear that caused the problem, anyway.

In all my decades of reading hunting magazines, stories about black-bear attacks have NEVER involved men (plural) and dogs as targets for a hungry bear. A solo person or a person(s) in a tent in camp, or some such thing, yeah. And, of course, the proverbial "got between a mother bear and her cubs". But that's irrelevant to this deal.

The problem here was unexpected wolf location, and unexpected wolf behavior. Aside from livestock depredations, this sort of attack--or potential for attack--was why the wolves were hunted out in the first place.

My summary take on all this deal is that an honest man was trying to obey the law and work within the system when pursuing an activity that is both historical and legal. "The System"--as represented by the Sierra Club types and the USF&WS--put the shaft to him. Pardon my cynicism, but "As usual" is my add-on. Which leads me to Heinlein's "Government does not exist for the benefit of the governed."

Art

[Cosmoline]

Wouldn't you agree that if Idaho F&G really forbids carrying iron in the field, IT is also to blame for this situation? Wolves or no, I find such a rule outrageous, not to mention a violation of the RKBA. Assuming you're safe around predators because you've always been able to get away with harassing them and never needed a rifle is really no different from Treadwell's assumption that the brownies wouldn't eat him because they hadn't yet.

[Sharps Shooter]

I have a copy of the 2006 Idaho Big Game Regulations sitting in front of me. I also searched the Idaho F&G website for the rules about the so called "dog training season" for black bears, and for the life of me I can't see where carrying a firearm while pursuing bears with hounds is illegal. The regulations DO read: "During a dog training season, black bear may be pursued and treed, but may not be captured, killed, or possessed."
I have to go along with Cosmoline - I think a rule forbidding the carrying of firearms in the field by the Idaho F&G while in pursuit of black bears, whether one intends to kill the bears or not, would be outrageous, as well as a violation of the RTBA. And like Cosmoline, it sounds to me also like the guy was acting like "the fellow started treating the woods as his own private park." Or maybe he WAS thinking like Treadwell, which I also find outrageous.
Furthermore, I searched this entire thread and I couldn't find but one poster who sounded a little bit anti-hunting and it sure wasn't me. I love hunting and have been doing it, quite successfully, for over 50 years. I said I've never hunted behind hounds but that's only because I've never had the opportunity. I don't really approve of the so called "training season" for black bear hounds as it sounds a little like harassment of game to me. But it's legal and I understand that it's the only way to train dogs for hunting bears. Besides, I've argued with bowhunters who feel I'm not being "sporting" enough because I use a .300 Magnum. It's legal and occationally it's the only way to put venison in the freezer on the last day of the season. Now, with the reported "decimation" of Idaho's big game herds by wolves, maybe even my .300 Magnum won't give me any advantage.:D

[killzone]

He should get a sheep dog - like a shepard and train'em to hunt. It works! :evil:

Google, KANGAL. Its a real Wolf Killer and a good huner!

[H&Hhunter]

As far as the wolf thing goes. The affected wolf depository states are not wanting to "wipe out" the wolf populations. They are merely demanding a way to deal with managing the populations and to handle a depredating wolf without becoming criminals. Oh and by the way you can not legally shoot a wolf that is killing your dog by law in the reintroduction states to do so is a Federal Felony. What do you think about this reintroduction program and it's more than slightly oppresive rules now?

Ok from our previous post we have learned a tiny little bit about hunting with dogs maybe we can learn a tiny little bit more. Bear with me if you will, I am passionate about this subject and have been a bear and cat guide who used hounds in the past. I do not consider myself a "houndsmen" as that is far too complimentary of title for me to claim.

The pursuit only season is exclusively for the training of bear dogs PERIOD. Whether you think it's stupid or not to be able to carry firearms legally is besides the point. You see in many states if you are carrying a firearm during pursuit season the DG&F considers that to be hunting not pursuing. If you don't hunt with hounds I guess it's impossible for you to understand the need to train new dogs every season to keep up with attrition and figure out which dogs are going to make the cut and which ones aren't.

While I can tell you that for obvious and before mentioned reasons I always carry a firearm in the wilderness. A good houndsmen with a seasoned pack of hounds seldom finds a need for a firearm unless he's actually going to kill the bear or cat he's pursuing. Here's why.

I'd dare say that there isn't a black bear on the planet that can work through three good bear dogs. I've seen a good pack put an aggressive big old male blackie up a tree 4 times in a row. The way a good hound pack works a bear is by hitting him from multiple angles at the same time with incredible speed and never latching on. They just dive in and out like a pack featherweight boxers nipping the bear, when the bear turns to get a dog another one hits him from a different angle keeping him spinning and turning totally confusing the bruin. Pretty soon all ole blackie wants to do is either exit the country or get up a tree. Of course the dogs job is to stay with the bear until he's had enough and trees up for good. It takes one hell of a special and brave dog to do this job. I'd put up three good dogs against a green horn with a .44 any day of the week for effective bear defense no two ways about it. A good dog is mans best friend under the most challenging circumstances.

Here are some hound hunting terms you should know.

When the dogs are milling around looking for a hot scent it's called "casting"
When they hit a scent it's called "Striking".
The time between the strike and sighting the animal is called the "race". The race is run by dogs who are either "hot trailing", that is on a straight line hell bent for leather on a hot scent or "cold trailing" where the dogs lose and reacquire the trail or they may be "sight trailing" where the dogs are visually chasing the critter. A good hounds men knows by the sound of the bark the dog is making what mode his dogs are in.
The dogs will race until they tree up or loose the scent or tire out. The race can go on for many hours and multiple miles across some of the toughest terrain on the planet. This is where we separate the men from the boys, most people are completely incapable of following the race from a strike to a tree. Hound hunting is the most physically demanding hunting that a person can do, bar none. I’ve had grand slam sheep hunters tell me they didn’t work half as hard for their sheep that they did for their properly hunted hound chased bear. Especially when the critter being chased goes "jackrabbit" that’s a bear or a cat that won't tree up or won't stay treed up. If you ever start hunting bear with hounds you must be prepared to walk and ride further into the wilds than you ever have before and you must also be prepared to siwash with minimal equipment on a regular basis because hounds will take you places you never dreamed of going or never wanted to go and once they start there is no stopping them. You go where they go until they end it some times spending cold nights in rugged country with only the gear you have on.

A good proven dry land cat or bear dog can be worth over $10,000 USD a good dog man is becoming a rare breed and they are some of the last true mountain men left in Americas. They are a rugged tough breed of individuals they become deeply attatched to their dogs and their horses or mules as their very life depends on them at times. Most of the ones I know carry some kind of revolver in their packs or in their trucks or on a saddle at all times. But most don't feel they need to carry one for bear protection when they have between 4 and 8 good hounds with them. Apparently in wolf country that just ain't so.

It absolutely SICKENS me to see a bunch of citified wana be "hunters" rail against houndsmen. The VAST majority of these arm chair, outdoor network watching, Real Tree wearing, once a year deer hunting fools have no knowledge of the tradition or the time and effort that goes into hunting with hounds not to mention the extreme physical stamina required and the vast amount of outdoor knowledge it takes to be a successful hounds men. The hunting houndsmen is one of the last true vestiges of our outdoor heritage they are link to our not so distant past, the last of a breed of truly in tune rugged outdoorsmen and what every hunter dreams he could be at some time in his life. And the average fat assed lazy boy "hunter" is doing his level headed best with his miss notions and misunderstandings of this great sport to destroy this truly American and extremely rugged way of life.

THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE SHOULD BE ASHAMED !!!:fire:

Because wether you know it or not your seemingly innocent way of hunting will be the next one on the chopping block.

PS

Doublenaughtspy

I asked you a question and would appreciate it if you would be man enough to answer it in public. Are you or are you not an anti hunter?

[Art Eatman]

There used to be a man in Alpine, Texas, named Roy McBride. Dog man. On up into his eighties, he regularly worked his dog pack some fifteen miles a day in mountain country. Mr. McBride was regularly hired to work lions: Both cougars in the U.S. and real lions in Africa. He trained people as well as dogs...

Cosmoline, poachers bring on a lot of the "dumb" laws or regulations. For instance, in some states you can't shoot a deer that's been hit by a car because they worry that a poacher would shoot a deer by a road and claim it was first hit by a vehicle. Same for carrying a firearm during bow season, or a modern gun during blackpowder season.

Again, as emphasized by H&H, the guys in Idaho didn't have bear trouble, they had wolf trouble. Heck, I don't always carry a gun here on my land, and I have mountain lions all around the place--but in 23 years here, no problems. No wolves, either--yet.

Art

[swampdog]

An excellent description of hound hunting, H&H. It's tough enough in the swamp. I can only imagine what it's like in the mountains.
The guys I know that run bear tree many more than they kill, just like some coon hunters I know. It certainly isn't all about killing. My neighbor has around 30 dogs in his pen, some of them deer dogs. It's a full time hobby for him. He certainly puts a large amount of work into them as well as a huge chunk of his income.
I know my neighbor has lost dogs in the past. One of the days last year I hunted with him, he had 2 that needed stitches. He uses a staple gun like they have at the ER.

These are hunting dogs, though, not family pets. I feel like the guy that did the newspaper interview has an axe to grind about the wolves and he played up to the media. I don't doubt that wolves ate his dogs, I am kind of leary of the histrionics, though.

People around here raised cain over the reintroduction of the red wolf. So far, I don't think it has been successful enough to cause many problems. Red wolves are quite a bit smaller than Canadian greys, though, and I can see why people in Idaho are "upset". As far as getting a felony for killing a wolf that was attacking you or your animals, stupid laws are meant to be ignored. My friend that killed the red wolf in his chicken pen got his picture in a national magazine. No charges were ever pressed.

[Cosmoline]

You see in many states if you are carrying a firearm during pursuit season the DG&F considers that to be hunting not pursuing. If you don't hunt with hounds I guess it's impossible for you to understand the need to train new dogs every season to keep up with attrition and figure out which dogs are going to make the cut and which ones aren't.


Then those state F&G departments are as bad or worse than any feds, and the regs should be changed. Just like those hunters who got burned by the wee Hmong fellow, I do wonder what the devil they're doing in the woods with no iron. You just don't do that. It's a good idea to armed into wild places for a lot of reasons, and if regs prohibit it then the regs are stupid and should be changed at once.

Oh and by the way you can not legally shoot a wolf that is killing your dog by law in the reintroduction states to do so is a Federal Felony.

A federal felony to do a DLP? By what law?

I have no problem with houndsmen, and I'm well aware of the physical difficulties and stamina required to hunt in rural Idaho. But nowhere did I read anyone on this thread saying the man was lazy or that hunting with hounds was bad. It just strikes me as a real bad idea to let novice dogs run around and have NOTHING to help defend them if they get in over their heads. And according to his own story, those concerns are well justified.

Anyway--aren't there griz in Id? A griz can go through a pack of dogs and have enough sand left to eat your liver. Heck there are pissed off elk in there I wouldn't want to tangle with.

Again, as emphasized by H&H, the guys in Idaho didn't have bear trouble, they had wolf trouble. Heck, I don't always carry a gun here on my land, and I have mountain lions all around the place--but in 23 years here, no problems. No wolves, either--yet.

I hope to never have to shoot anyone or anything in self defense, but I still pack heat everywhere I go. In the woods I take a rifle. Nobody has bear trouble until they have a whole lot of trouble. I could be like Timmy boy and note that I've been hiking in bear country for years and no bear has ever tried to attack me, but look where that road ends.

No matter where you are or what you're doing, SOMETHING or SOMEONE is out there who'll kill you if your paths happen to cross at the right time in the right circumstances. When this happens you can blame society or blame the President or blame the feds or blame nature, but none of that will stop it from happening. You just need to be prepared for the dark shadow to cross your path.

Anyway, everyone knows REAL men hunt bears buck naked with CATS, not dogs.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i25/marylynnk9/cat3.jpg

[trapperjohn]

i can not believe the ignorance expoused on this thread. on top of that, I can not believe the long pontifications of those that have this ignorance.
the next time someone here rails about hunters not doing anything to support the RTKBA I want them to remeber this thread and realize that not all RTKBA fanatatics support hunting rights.

I just wish people with virtually nill hunting nowledge would stop standing in judgement of hunters whose whose sport the poster knows nothing about.

In my state and in many states it is Prima facia evidence of hunting (poacihng)if someone is in a habitat known to contain game and has a firearm. If Idaho is the same way then this man could have lost a lot if caught with a firearm during the pursuit season.

in ANY kind of huntig involving dogs is concerned, the most effective mode of training is having young dogs with experianced dogs. thats why this man let some inexperianced dogs out, he was doing the responsible thing and TRAINING Them.


In addition many states do have a pursuit season where the dogs are used to tree game.

A man does the responsible thing, obeys the law, suffers a financial and emotional loss, and our "freedom loving" gun owners crucify him :banghead: :banghead:

[H&Hhunter]

A federal felony to do a DLP? By what law?


By the federal wolf reintroduction program protective laws.

Cosmoline,

It's time for you to WAKE UP on this wolf reintroduction thing down here. This program is leftist government oppresion at it's ugliest. Animals over people and government not by the people but by a small special interst group that cannot be affected by their actions as they don't live or work in the affected areas. Thank you very much Bill Clinton!

It is illegal to kill a wolf for any reason what so ever. And specifically the regs state that you can not harm a wolf that is attacking your dog. Hell you can't even legally kill a wolf that you witness killing your live stock. You are supposed to call the feds and they'll come out and investigate the scene and let you know if they'll reimburse you for your loses. It is a felony to kill a wolf for any reason in the effected states by current law.

Can you now see why these people are more than just a bit pissed off with this program?

Anyway--aren't there griz in Id? A griz can go through a pack of dogs and have enough sand left to eat your liver. Heck there are pissed off elk in there I wouldn't want to tangle with.


Not true in fact I've got an aquiantance who protects his camps in Wyoming grizz country with two grizz hating blue heelers. In 10 years he's never had a grizz decide to stay in camp with these two devil dogs on the guard. There have been many try but none feel welcome for very long.

Back in the day grizz were reguarly hunted with hound dogs. From reading about old time hunters like Ben Lilly I would surmise that hunting grizz with dogs was a true adventure. He often describes 60+ mile races before his dogs were able to catch the grizz.

Anyway, everyone knows REAL men hunt bears buck naked with CATS, not dogs.



That is one bad cat, must be a rare and dangerous dry red bone bear cat.:D :D

[Cosmoline]

In my state and in many states it is Prima facia evidence of hunting (poacihng)if someone is in a habitat known to contain game and has a firearm. If Idaho is the same way then this man could have lost a lot if caught with a firearm during the pursuit season.

This is no different from NYC, Chicago or the UK where having a firearm is seen as prima facia evidence of being a career criminal. It's anti RKBA and HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HUNTING! I live in a state with more hunting per capita than any other state in the union, BAR NONE. I love to hunt. I'm not anti-hunting. But the sort of regulations you're talking about CANNOT BE DEFENDEND. They are anti-gun and anti RKBA.

But as far as this case, I thought we had established that Idaho does NOT ban firearms during the pursuit season. I hope this is the case. If it isn't, the regs need to be changed.

Not true in fact I've got an aquiantance who protects his camps in Wyoming grizz country with two grizz hating blue heelers. In 10 years he's never had a grizz decide to stay in camp with these two devil dogs on the guard. There have been many try but none feel welcome for very long

A man who relies on DOGS to protect him from UAH is a man waiting in line to join Timmy boy. We've had griz go through entire dog teams up here. You should not rely solely on your hunds to protect you. YOU have the obligation to back THEM up. Unless you're just using them as bear bait like the sourdoughs used to.

It is illegal to kill a wolf for any reason what so ever.

If this is indeed the federal law, then I agree that's totally outrageous. But while I've heard this repeated I still haven't seen any evidence that it actually *IS* federal law. What's the code provision? Where is it made a felony? I'm not saying the federales with always believe you if you claim self defense. They didn't in this case:

http://www.idahostatesman.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060413/NEWS01/604130334

But that doesn't mean DLP isn't a defense. It just means if you kill a griz sow because you say you thought it was a black bear and then kill the cub because you say you had to in order to claim the sow (who's radio tag you just destroyed), people may have a hard time believing you were doing a DLP and not poaching. None of these charges are federal felonies, they're misdemeanors. Indeed you'd face charges just as serious for shooting a brown bear up here out of season, where the ESA plays no role.

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/6807888p-6697807c.html

[H&Hhunter]

A man who relies on DOGS to protect him from UAH is a man waiting in line to join Timmy boy. We've had griz go through entire dog teams up here. You should not rely solely on your hunds to protect you. YOU have the obligation to back THEM up. Unless you're just using them as bear bait like the sourdoughs used to.


Cosmoline,

The outfitter I am refering to as all outfitters I know, has a gun with him in camp. He's just never had to use it...yet. Those heelers have saved him a lot of time and trouble with the local fish cops. Because shooting a grizz in Wyoming is worse than shooting a person as far as I can tell.

Your point about the pursuit season regs being anti RKBA is right on. And I'm sure if you get an understanding judge he'll forfeit the ticket when you use this as a defense after shooting a bear that came out of a tree and latched onto one of your pups you've been training. (What do you think?) The problem was that in the past some unscrupulous people were shooting big bears during pursuit only seasons and claiming self defense. Various states made a deal with the dog hunters that they could keep their season but they couldn’t carry or shoot a bear for any reason. Can you see the gray area here and why lots of guys don't like to carry during pursuit seasons? It can get you in a bunch of trouble.

This is exactly why the carriage of a firearm is prohibited in some states during a pursuit only season. I didn't make the rules I don't agree with them but they are on the books for that reason. In fact I don't even follow them for common sense reasons. I also believe that they are indefensible (Shoot shovel & shut up is the motto if it ever happens to me.);)

If you have any questions about the abuses being perpetrated by the feds on the good citizens of Idaho I suggest you call Mr. Tim Sundels of Buffalo Bore Ammunition and have a little chit chat with him about what happens to you if you kill a wolf in defense of Property in that state.

You and I are pretty much on the same page. But I think that you do not understand the iron fisted tactics that the feds have been using with this wolf thing. It is very difficult for any free thinking, honest man to comprehend.


PS.

Are you a fed?

[Cosmoline]

PS.

Are you a fed?

:D :D :D

H&H, I guess you haven't read my other posts here.

I'm the last person to defend the federales, but they're a multi headed beast. Some agencies I detest and regard as an occupying foreign power. The NPS, for example, or the BIA. Others I've never had any problems with at all and they've actually been helpful, such as the Forest Service and BLM. Our own F&G is generally pretty good, though they have their own problems. They do investigate all DLP shootings as they should, and in the recent prosecution of the kid who shot the sow with the SKS, I think there was very little evidence it was done in self defense. It was just rather sadistic poaching.

As far as the regulation of ESA listed predators in the lower 48, I don't have enough facts to come to any conclusions one way or the other. I see references to a federal felony for shooting an endangered predator under any circumstances, but a cruise of the cases doesn't seem to confirm that. I'd like to know what specific code provisions deal with this issue, but nobody seems to know where they are. The main article here was full of emotion but as far as I can tell the feds had no involvement in anything that took place. If he was banned from having a firearm that would have been a matter of state law. And I haven't seen any evidence that hunters are being prosecuted for killing wolves who are eating their dogs or livestock. The one case I could find had some rather questionable claims from the defense, such as killing a sow griz at close range with a bow because you thought she was a black bear, then destroying her tracking collar, then killing her cub.

[PinnedAndRecessed]

Overpopulation by game species, resulting in large die-off due to drought/disease.

IIRC, all this was taking place during a time when the nanny-state experts were simultaneously limiting hunting.

Those idiots were anti-hunting yet were also wringing their incompetent hands about overpopulation of the above mentioned species.

All the while, those of us who hunted, were lobbying that the "experts" would simply extend game season, etc.

We all knew the reintroduction of wolves was ultimately going to be bad.

I've never seen such an anti-hunting crowd of gun owners in my entire life.

+1

[Art Eatman]

Well, Cos, as an example of justhow bad it is down here, a rancher in Montana was fined four thousand dollars for killing a grizzly bear that was in a pen by his ranch house, going after livestock. I disremember if it was calves or a horse.

It's worse with wolves.

I was talking to some New Mexico folks not long back, ranchers, and in some areas toward SW New Mexico they're almost out of business because of the reintroduction of the Mexican Wolf. One problem is that the pro-wolf entities are supposed to repay for depredations, but they always seem to find an excuse to believe that the wolf didn't do the killing. The usual problem: Unless you see the kill, it might be days or weeks before the kill is found, and the buzzards and coyotes have cleaned up the evidence.

There is an outfit called "Range Magazine". http://www.rangemagazine.com They're obviously anti-fed on the issue of reintroduction, but they do detail specific events and speak to the laws and regulations.

Art

[H&Hhunter]

The main article here was full of emotion but as far as I can tell the feds had no involvement in anything that took place.

Cosmoline,

The feds had everything to do with this. They are the ones who let the wolves loose and declared them to be holy beasts of the sacred order of the untouchable in the first place.:)

I didn't mean to insult you by asking if you were a fed. I was just curious.;)

You never know who you are talking to.

[Cosmoline]

But are the untouchable? Would he have been put in prison for shooting one that was attacking his dog? I still haven't seen the code provision outlawing DLP shooting of predators.

[Sharps Shooter]

Not to get off track, but to answer your question Cosmoline about if there are any grizzlies in Idaho - no, I don't believe there are any grizzlies around Grangeville. Grangeville is about in the middle of the state and on its west side. There are reported to be grizzlies way up in Idaho's northern panhandle and of course there is quite a few of them that don't recognize the boundary of Yellowstone Park which borders Idaho's east side.
If the feds would have gotten their way back when Clinton was in office, I would wager there would be a lot of grizzlies around Grangeville by now. They wanted to "reintroduce" Canadian grizzlies to the Selway-Bitteroot area of Idaho and Western Montana. That's right close to Grangeville. But as it stands now, the last verifiable death of a grizzly in the Selway-Bitteroot area occured in 1932.

[H&Hhunter]

Cosmoline,

This is from the Idaho dept of Game and Fish,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Private Land
Wolves seen attacking livestock (PDF Format, 702 KB), livestock herding and guarding animals, and dogs (PDF Format, 252 KB) on private land can be shot by the landowners without prior written authorization. It must be reported within 24 hours and there must be evidence of a wolf attack such as dead or wounded livestock, trampled vegetation, and mixed wolf and livestock sign. State lands are considered private for the purpose of this rule, and permitted livestock producers on state land can kill a wolf attacking their livestock.

Public Land
Wolves attacking, chasing, molesting, or harassing livestock and livestock herding and guarding animals on public federal lands can be shot by grazing permittees and guide/outfitters that use livestock as part of their federal land-use permit, on their active livestock allotments, and on public ceded lands by tribal members, without prior written authorization. It must be reported within 24 hours and there must be physical evidence of a wolf attack.
Under some circumstances landowners and public land grazing permittees and guide/outfitting permittees may be issued written authorization to use rubber bullets to harass wolves, or shoot-on-sight permits to kill wolves on their private land or their federal grazing federal allotments. Also under the revised rule, wolves determined to be causing unacceptable impacts to deer and elk populations can be controlled. This is allowed only after the states complete science-based documents that have undergone public and peer review and have been approved by the USFWS.

Under the revised rule, the states of Idaho and Montana each have developed agreements with the USFWS, listing authorities and responsibilities to lead gray wolf management in their states. Wolves in Wyoming still are managed under the old 10(j) rule, because that state doesn't have a wolf management plan approved by USFWS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no provision to shoot wolves who are attacking your dog on PUBLIC land IE Forest service or BLM.

Plain and simple the I think that any one of us here would have had a pile o dead wolves in this circumstance. But you had better not be telling anybody about it because even if you did everything right and repoted this to the federal fish cops you'd better have a whole stack of cash to defend yourself in this situation. The feds will prosecute on these cases.

Please see below!

[H&Hhunter]

Cosmoline,
I hope that this answers your question. Please refer to the bottom of the paragraph regarding wether or not this gentlemen was within his rights to shoot these wolves.

Now you have seen the code and in specific the code addressing dogs on public lands.

Comments?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What you can do to protect your dog:
Currently wolves are protected under the ESA.
However, the USFWS recently published new rules
that allow take of wolves that harass or attack
livestock or dogs on private property, known as the
“10(j)” rules. Under the new 10(j) rules,
landowners, outfitters, and permittees on private
property or grazing allotments can legally kill wolves

Bells placed on hunting dogs may reduce the
likelihood of encounters with wolves.

“attacking (killing,
wounding, or biting) or
in the act of attacking
(actively chasing,
molesting, harassing)
their livestock (includes
livestock herding &
guarding animals) or
dogs.” However, the
taking of a wolf must be
reported within 24 hours
and the injured or dead
livestock or dog and any
other evidence must be
evident to verify that a
wolf attack was
imminent. Furthermore,
where confirmed wolf
depredations of livestock
or dogs on private land
or grazing allotments
have occurred, and are
likely to occur again
based on the continued
presence of wolves, the
private landowner or
grazing allotment permittee may be issued a
“shoot-on-sight” permit. Keep in mind that it is
only legal for the land owner, outfitter, or
permittee to shoot wolves that harass or attack
dogs on private land or grazing allotments—it will
remain illegal to shoot a wolf attacking pet dogs
or hunting hounds on public land.

[Dr.Rob]

Well I for one wasn't trying to come off as a tree hugger. But I do consider myself a conservationist.

H&H thanks for the info on the catch and relesae bear season... since the spring bear hunt was banned here in CO I never imagined such a thing existed. I stand corrected on the laws and how they force a man to make his choices.

On hunting with dogs:

I know full well the value of a hunting dog... I've come across bear while grouse hunting before and beleive me my FIRST reaction was to get my well trained dogs out of dodge. (One of them had a close encounter with a bear and ran all the way back to the truck to hide.) I also chose NOT to return to that area without a BIG pistol (at the time I was armed only with a shotgun and birdshot) which you CAN open carry in CO.

I can't imagine going out in the woods without a firearm. Even a warning shot could have saved one or more of his dogs. I feel bad for the guy, I do.

Back to wolves:

Seriously... there is an old Russian Proverb that 'wolves eat dogs' for a reason. To a wolf a dog is a rival. It may or may not feed on your dog but if it runs into a dog on what it thinks is ITS territory, your dog is in danger.

In fact in almost every kind of hunting with dogs (raccoons, wild boar, bear, etc) there is a risk to the dog's saftey. Someone once explained to me that 'bay dogs' were valuable, fighters are a dime a dozen (he was discussing knife hunting for feral pigs.) I'm not sure I can get behind 'devaluing' a dog like that, but some people do.

But what happened here in THIS incident?

Is the wolf to blame for being a wolf? Is the Division of Wildlife guilty for NOT letting hunters cull predators in the act of attacking a dog? Is the guide not guilty of at least going unprepared?

Wolves are returning to our ecosystem, most times in an ecosytem that is VASTLY different from when they went extinct. The 'experts' don't have it all figured out yet, and I think there is room for discussion on both sides, and room for the experts to re-evaluate what is working and what isn't.

As hunters we should make a POINT to be involved in that discussion, and I hope that's what we are doing here... discussing rather than berating each other.

Knowledge is power, thanks for sharing.

[IV Troop]

H&Hhunter
Senior Member



Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Colorado USA
Posts: 1,207 HEY GUYS!!! HAVE ANY OF YOU ARMCHAIR EXPERTS EVER HEARD OF PURSUIT SEASON????

Apparently NOT!

That is a season, usually in the spring that is set aside for the pursuit only of bears with dogs for the purpose of training bear dogs. The bear is not killed but only treed and then let loose. In case some of you guys didn’t know it hound hunting is one of the only forms of catch and release hunting on the planet. The hounds men is NOT allowed to carry a firearm during pursuit only season although many do for obvious reasons but they risk a fine by doing so. The hounds men will use older dogs mixed in with younger dogs. The older dogs do much of the training of the younger dogs once a scent is hit.

Doublenaught writes,

Quote:
If he is so concerned about his dogs, maybe he should keep them in sight better than just letting them loose to roam and chase. Just because bears may turn tail does not mean he has been sufficient as a dog trainer in letting them roam on their own.



Dear Mr spy,

This may be one of the ALL time most ignorant statements ever written on this or ANY hunting forum in existence. You sir have OBVIOUSLY never hunted bear or cat behind hounds. And while that doesn't stop you from posting like you do have some knowledge if you had even the slightest idea of what you were talking about you'd realize just how ridiculous that statement was. Hounds do not stay in sight of the hunter after "striking" a solid scent. Once a solid scent is hit the dogs take off in pursuit and you may not see them again for many many hours.

Which brings us into point of fact number two.

Since there is no possible way of keeping pace with a pack of hot trailing hounds they have been bred to bark and bay loudly so that the hunter can locate them during the pursuit and after they tree an animal DUHHHH!!!!!

Which pretty much covers this little jewel that was also written by Doublenaught,


Quote:
Wolves eat. Scott trains his dogs to chase other animals, such as bears, tree them, remain on station until he arrives, barking the entire time. Translation to other predators such as wolves, "We are a bunch of stupid citified dogs with no gun toting master around and we have treed a bear and will keep yelling until our master comes and hope that in the meantime that we aren't calling out to other predators that the dinner bell has rung and that they won't attracted to our sounds that give the impression we are a bunch of weak, wounded animals as no predators in the wild waste time and energy screaming at the top of their lungs like we do because they don't want to be eaten either."



Sir right here and right now you tell me what animal on this planet predator or not besides a pack of wolves will be attracted to a pack of baying hounds!

Double I have to ask you this public forum if you are a hunter , if you have ever hunted, and what are your true motifs in regards to posting on this forum? Some of the statements you’ve made in the past have got me thinking that there is something a little more sinister than just a name in regards to your handle. Are you or are you not an anti hunter. Because you sure as heck sound like one most of the time.


People who have drank the cool aid on these wolf reintroduction programs fail to see the big picture. This is the most effective anti hunting program ever devised and will effectively wipeout big game hunting in many areas of the United States

Wolves have been knocking the heck out of hunting dogs in many other areas too. This is nothing new. It doesn’t bother me that wolves have been reintroduced into several areas. Yellowstone being one of them. What does bother me is that the local citizens had no say in the process. That affected states do not have any oversight or management tools to control wolf populations. That these wolves remain federally protected once they leave their intended reintroduction areas. That people are not allowed to defend themselves or their property from wolves and are criminalized if they do. That the federal government has maintained draconian rules with regards to wolves and are generally acting like a bunch of oppressive leftist animal rights nazis in regards to the whole wolf program.

Some of you guys sound like a bunch of fuzzy legged tree huggers wearing stop the killing tee shirts standing in line to get into the re-elect bilHillary meeting!

I can't even believe some of the CRAP I'm reading here!

Cosmoline,

I agree with your premise about wild country and teeth. However having lived in AK for awhile I seem to remember many of the same arguments about wolves and I still hear them today in regards to big game population and in particular these arguments when Ak stopped aerial shooting of wolves.

Most pointedly Alaskans would FREAK out if the federal government decided to, without the approval of Alaskans reintroduce some animal into the state than declare it to be the holy grail of all animals which can never be managed by the human hand and not allow the state of AK to have any say in its management. And of course there is a hunting season on wolves in AK. That is all that Idaho residents are asking for at this point. A way to manage the burgeoning wolf population.
__________________
If you ever have the good fortune to get tangled up with an elephant at close range in tight cover. I promise you the last thing on your mind will be "Well, Bell used a 7X57 mauser......"

Double rifle,The weapon that made Africa safe for the bolt gun..

A man hasn't truely lived until he's been to a place where he isn't the top of the food chain.



H&H great post.

As an Idahoan and an extremely avid sportsman year round (when I am conus) I must say that I get the impression that many of the posters, though well intentioned, do not know much about the various methods of hunting big game outside of deer or pigs. Not that that is a bad thing but hunting in the wilderness areas of central idaho is not the same as a hunting lease in the south that "grows" whitetails.

BTW, I can on any given night take my coyote howler and howl from my dads back deck in the mountains of central Idaho and have a number of wolves anwer. It is great to tell that to city folks who don't believe it, then watch as their eyes get HUGE when I do it:)

[Art Eatman]

IV Troop, you make some very good points. Howsomever, calm down the vituperative rhetoric as you express your ideas, okay?

And that goes for everybody else, as well. :)

Art

[IV Troop]

Art,

I think there was some confusion on what I posted. I simply cut and pasted H&H's post which I happen to agree with the majority of the content.

This part is what I addded on the end:

As an Idahoan and an extremely avid sportsman year round (when I am conus) I must say that I get the impression that many of the posters, though well intentioned, do not know much about the various methods of hunting big game outside of deer or pigs. Not that that is a bad thing but hunting in the wilderness areas of central idaho is not the same as a hunting lease in the south that "grows" whitetails.

BTW, I can on any given night take my coyote howler and howl from my dads back deck in the mountains of central Idaho and have a number of wolves anwer. It is great to tell that to city folks who don't believe it, then watch as their eyes get HUGE when I do it

I HOPE you did not find that too offensive:D

Thanks, IV TROOP

[H&Hhunter]

QUOTE]Howsomever, calm down the vituperative rhetoric as you express your ideas, okay?
[/QUOTE]

Art,

That was all me. IV did nothing more than cut and paste them.


Dr Rob,

Did you or did you not see the part about.....

"it will remain illegal to shoot a wolf attacking pet dogs
or hunting hounds on public land"

Is the guide not guilty of at least going unprepared?

Rob prepared to do what? Commit a felony by DLP?

My point is simply that the federal government has us between a rock and a hard place. These laws are unjust they force us to make choices that a free man shouldn't have to make. And they were put into place without the concurrence of the local people whom are to be affected by them.

And finally I am trying to point out that there are more ways to hunt than sitting in a deer stand over a corn bait. That by berating these other forms of hunting you are only shooting yourself in the foot. You are either with us or against us.

I hope that my “vituperative rhetoric” has at least partially pried open some very tightly shut eyes on this forum.

[bearmgc]

Reintroduction of wolves= Government sponsored terrorism. Put a Canadian wolf into Southern territory where the game is smaller and its a no contest. Yes it seems to me that this thread attracted an anti-hunting response from the uninformed. And without predator pressure ie hunting by humans, wolves will become more enboldened to hunt humans, little humans, solitary humans. This is what is starting with the Grizzley. They have no fear of people eventually, and teach their young to stalk humans. Many a story in my area about this by hunters in Grizzley country. I believe we will have to prepare for possible attacks by wolves more with each coming hunting season. That along with the Grizzley issue, is enough for me, a solitary hunter, to find another area to hunt. I have no problem at this time with SSS.

[Dr.Rob]

H&H I did see that part.

Are crackershells (or a warning shot fired in the air) illegal in this instance?

When I took my dogs out to train them to flush birds I carried a pistol (or a blank pistol within city limits) to get them used to the sound of gunfire. Seems like that's reasonable when training bear dogs.

I'd agree (after reading up) that it sounds like the laws are not on the side of the reasonable man (hunter or otherwise) when it comes to protecting one's self or pets against wolves in Idaho.

Some kind of noisemaker bigger than a bell on a collar seems prudent doesn't it? Especially by a guy who is in the business of raising dogs and taking them into the woods to train them. That's what I mean by being prepared.

I don't see how that's remotely anti-hunting.


THIS is something I'd comepletely agree with you on (emphasis mine):

"What does bother me is that the local citizens had NO SAY in the process. That affected states do not have ANY OVERSIGHT or management tools to control wolf populations. That these wolves remain federally protected once they leave their intended reintroduction areas."

(Note that landowners, ranchers, etc. have successfully lobbied in many areas to get an exemption built into these rules ie: Yellowstone.)

"That people are not allowed to defend themselves or their property from wolves and are criminalized if they do. That the federal government has maintained draconian rules with regards to wolves and are generally acting like a bunch of oppressive leftist animal rights nazis in regards to the whole wolf program."

This is indeed another form of 'the rest of us' being treated like serfs with laws (or rules and regulations that carry the weight of law) that we did NOT have a say in passing.

Sounds to me like there are several options to "solve" this problem without eradicating all the wolves.

A.Lobby for the right to self protection of self and property in the legislature.

B. Lobby to have dogs re-classified as "livestock" (sad to say this is probably easier) protected by the same laws as cattle, sheep and horses. Of course B will cost the dog owner money in the form of fees and taxes.

C. Carry a firearm anyway if you can do so without violating the law.

of those 3 only one is effective without talking to a politician.

[Poppy270]

H&H
I thought your post was great,the rhetoric didn't bother me.Some of the posts had my jaws getting tight also.Hunting with hounds is a great sport,but it takes more time and commitment than most are willing to give.My Dad was a coon and cat hunter,but mostly a fox hunter.The hunt was about the fox race,but most hunters don't know about anything like this.I don't like feed bucket deer either,but that seems to be what most deer hunting is now.Some one needed to tell these wannabes a few things,and your rhetoric is better than mine.

[Dr.Rob]

I met a young englishman who talked to me a lot about fox hunting. He had been to Africa with a bow and had a lot of hunting experience... he prefers 'fox hunting' with coyotes here in the states because... you RARELY catch the coyote. It's like a big steeplechase through unknown terrain.

Reminded me a lot about a quote I once heard. "The catching wasn't so good but the fishing was excellent."

I've been on a raccoon hunt or two and I understand the thrill of treeing a big one.. heck most 'coon hunters I know don't even kill the critters anymore.

I still don't understand going into territory with known dangers without a firearm.

[killzone]

I feel bad for the guy. It must have sucked! He kept saying that he will never be able to hunt with dogs again. Why, so he wouldn't thave to see that happen again? Well if you have wolfs then get this dog.! Kangal.

[Q-Lock]

finding a Kangal may prove to be a difficult feat, seeing as how "The export of pure Kangal Dogs from Turkey has been controlled and now is virtually forbidden."

quote taken from: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/kangaldog.htm


Regards,

[Poppy270]

The old fox hunters I grew up around,didn't want to catch the fox,they just wanted the dogs to chase it.The race was what it was all about.I don't go out to eat without packing,I'll sure have something if theres a critter around big enough to eat me.I don,t know much about wolves except what I've read.I understand they are protected by law,so it's almost impossible to kill one legally.......I know what I would do.

[killzone]

"The export of pure Kangal Dogs from Turkey has been controlled and now is virtually forbidden."


Good Point, However there are many legal ways. For example getting in contact with the natural resources departmnet and get the ok... They do run a lot of checks on you like, personal referances and things that would proof that you would be owning that dog for only yourself and not sell or cross breed...
If you own a pet shop they would not give the OK see?

[Jeremae]

Instead of a Kangal, get Irish Wolfhounds. Haven't been wolves in Ireland for centuries because of them.:D

met a fella who used retired greyhounds to control the jack rabbits on his west texas ranch. Technique was to drive around with dogs in back of pickup till one flushed, hit brakes and chase was on... Laughed when I asked if my dog could try it. After first time, Mona ALWAYS beat greyhounds to the rabbit, of course she didn't wait for the truck to stop :D I guess he didn't know wolfhounds were used to run deer.:evil:

[Blacklabman]

Reintroduction of wolves= Government sponsored terrorism. Put a Canadian wolf into Southern territory where the game is smaller and its a no contest.

I dare say that if that happened in the South, wolves would meet the same fate as many coyotes. Coyotes that were not wanted, nor needed with the problems they bring, but were dumped on us by the Feds anyway.
I have no problem with hunting with hounds. My Grandfater fox hunted , and had atleast 12 fox hounds.
I have never bear hunted with hounds , but did coon hunt when I was younger.
Those who have never heard a Black and Tan baying while on trail, have missed something great in life.
Monday Moring Quarterback thought.
I do not understand why the gentlemen in the story were not armed to begin with.. Even when just walking over my land(70 acres) I always carry a revolver.

[Illuminaughty]

Don't people ever get tired of bashing California?



No.



Humans are wild animals, too.




No, they're not. Look up what "civilization" means, and how being "civilized" seperates us from wild animals. Perhaps you're not used to the concept of civilization there in commiefornia, but the rest of us know well the difference between wild beat and civil human.

H&Hhunter
Senior Member



Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Colorado USA
Posts: 1,212
As far as the wolf thing goes. The affected wolf depository states are not wanting to "wipe out" the wolf populations. They are merely demanding a way to deal with managing the populations and to handle a depredating wolf without becoming criminals. Oh and by the way you can not legally shoot a wolf that is killing your dog by law in the reintroduction states to do so is a Federal Felony. What do you think about this reintroduction program and it's more than slightly oppresive rules now?

Ok from our previous post we have learned a tiny little bit about hunting with dogs maybe we can learn a tiny little bit more. Bear with me if you will, I am passionate about this subject and have been a bear and cat guide who used hounds in the past. I do not consider myself a "houndsmen" as that is far too complimentary of title for me to claim.

The pursuit only season is exclusively for the training of bear dogs PERIOD. Whether you think it's stupid or not to be able to carry firearms legally is besides the point. You see in many states if you are carrying a firearm during pursuit season the DG&F considers that to be hunting not pursuing. If you don't hunt with hounds I guess it's impossible for you to understand the need to train new dogs every season to keep up with attrition and figure out which dogs are going to make the cut and which ones aren't.

While I can tell you that for obvious and before mentioned reasons I always carry a firearm in the wilderness. A good houndsmen with a seasoned pack of hounds seldom finds a need for a firearm unless he's actually going to kill the bear or cat he's pursuing. Here's why.

I'd dare say that there isn't a black bear on the planet that can work through three good bear dogs. I've seen a good pack put an aggressive big old male blackie up a tree 4 times in a row. The way a good hound pack works a bear is by hitting him from multiple angles at the same time with incredible speed and never latching on. They just dive in and out like a pack featherweight boxers nipping the bear, when the bear turns to get a dog another one hits him from a different angle keeping him spinning and turning totally confusing the bruin. Pretty soon all ole blackie wants to do is either exit the country or get up a tree. Of course the dogs job is to stay with the bear until he's had enough and trees up for good. It takes one hell of a special and brave dog to do this job. I'd put up three good dogs against a green horn with a .44 any day of the week for effective bear defense no two ways about it. A good dog is mans best friend under the most challenging circumstances.

Here are some hound hunting terms you should know.

When the dogs are milling around looking for a hot scent it's called "casting"
When they hit a scent it's called "Striking".
The time between the strike and sighting the animal is called the "race". The race is run by dogs who are either "hot trailing", that is on a straight line hell bent for leather on a hot scent or "cold trailing" where the dogs lose and reacquire the trail or they may be "sight trailing" where the dogs are visually chasing the critter. A good hounds men knows by the sound of the bark the dog is making what mode his dogs are in.
The dogs will race until they tree up or loose the scent or tire out. The race can go on for many hours and multiple miles across some of the toughest terrain on the planet. This is where we separate the men from the boys, most people are completely incapable of following the race from a strike to a tree. Hound hunting is the most physically demanding hunting that a person can do, bar none. I’ve had grand slam sheep hunters tell me they didn’t work half as hard for their sheep that they did for their properly hunted hound chased bear. Especially when the critter being chased goes "jackrabbit" that’s a bear or a cat that won't tree up or won't stay treed up. If you ever start hunting bear with hounds you must be prepared to walk and ride further into the wilds than you ever have before and you must also be prepared to siwash with minimal equipment on a regular basis because hounds will take you places you never dreamed of going or never wanted to go and once they start there is no stopping them. You go where they go until they end it some times spending cold nights in rugged country with only the gear you have on.

A good proven dry land cat or bear dog can be worth over $10,000 USD a good dog man is becoming a rare breed and they are some of the last true mountain men left in Americas. They are a rugged tough breed of individuals they become deeply attatched to their dogs and their horses or mules as their very life depends on them at times. Most of the ones I know carry some kind of revolver in their packs or in their trucks or on a saddle at all times. But most don't feel they need to carry one for bear protection when they have between 4 and 8 good hounds with them. Apparently in wolf country that just ain't so.

It absolutely SICKENS me to see a bunch of citified wana be "hunters" rail against houndsmen. The VAST majority of these arm chair, outdoor network watching, Real Tree wearing, once a year deer hunting fools have no knowledge of the tradition or the time and effort that goes into hunting with hounds not to mention the extreme physical stamina required and the vast amount of outdoor knowledge it takes to be a successful hounds men. The hunting houndsmen is one of the last true vestiges of our outdoor heritage they are link to our not so distant past, the last of a breed of truly in tune rugged outdoorsmen and what every hunter dreams he could be at some time in his life. And the average fat assed lazy boy "hunter" is doing his level headed best with his miss notions and misunderstandings of this great sport to destroy this truly American and extremely rugged way of life.

THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE SHOULD BE ASHAMED !!!

Because wether you know it or not your seemingly innocent way of hunting will be the next one on the chopping block.

PS

Doublenaughtspy

I asked you a question and would appreciate it if you would be man enough to answer it in public. Are you or are you not an anti hunter?

Nice! I'm glad to see a rational post among these. I don't know either way as I don't hunt, but things weren't adding up with what I was seeing, and what you're saying adds up and makes sense. I wish there were more posters like you on these boards! Keep up the good work!

[Cosmoline]

The usual problem: Unless you see the kill, it might be days or weeks before the kill is found, and the buzzards and coyotes have cleaned up the evidence.

Easy solution: CARRY A RIFLE. Shoot the wolf when he has dog in his belly. Call a lawyer and document the whole scene carefully.

It sounds like the problem isn't so much expanding range and reintroduction but the federal gob'ment's attitude about it. That said, I'm skeptical about anti-wolf tales. It's like up here, there can be a brown bear gnawing at some fellow's legs and he'll still be blaming the wolves for all the evils of the world. There's something about wolves that really gets certain people worked up into a lather.

[Scottso]

I am sorry for his loss However hunting bear or pig with dogs chances are you run into wrong bear or pig dogs get hurt or killed, I've seen dogs get torn up by hogs, yes some passed. A loss yes but when put in harms way we all have risks. He put his dogs in harms way what if they ran into a big male bear who did not want to be treed? The bear would fight and inexperienced dogs would get hurt/killed. I love the sound of beagles chasing rabbits, or hounds on a hog,it is music however if you are not in time when the hog picks his ground fighting starts and wounds all around.Some of us treat wild land as if it were our backyard, sometimes it is not safe in our own backyard!! As far as carrying a firearm, I am sorry but yes i would be in fact a lawbreaker if I new my dogs would be in wolf country while treeing bears. If not for there own safety but mine as well, choice between shooting a wolf or becoming its meal there is no choice the wolf would not be feeding anymore!! Ranting and raving will not change laws, the only law I know in the wilderness is survival of the fittest. I am not going to argue about the wolves place, or regulations about not carrying a firearm during whatever season, just use common sense, laws are just that but my safety comes first!! My .02 and yes I hunt and own dogs I lost a great female at 5 and it hurt like hell, but in the woods I Pack.As far as his story I would not have left my dogs,dead or not to be eaten.

[Bigjake]

So, anybody point me towards the rock doublenaught_spy is hidding under? I'm just aching for his response on this.

[QuickDraw]

Quote:

Don't people ever get tired of bashing California?


No.

After all the crying that we all need to
stick together as firearms owners,its
no wonder that nothing ever gets done.
We can't even be civil to each other.
I'm thinking about renouncing my THR
membership and looking for more friendlier places.

[silverlance]

they're bashing kali, not california residents.

seriously, though, kali would be such a ncie place to live if not for the blissninnys and whatnot.

[Art Eatman]

Cosmoline, most ranchers I've known--and I, when I was running cattle on my place--check the stock pretty regularly; daily, if at all possible. We're not unable to read sign as to what sort of critters are ranging across the land.

If before wolves were reintroduced you have few losses to predation, and an increase in losses to predation after wolves are reintroduced, isn't it rational to infer a causal relationship? (I only know from reading, but it seems that predation on livestock by grizzlies is not all that common or steady--and there are no grizzlies in New Mexico, where predation has increased with the reintroduction of the Mexican Wolf.)

http://www.rangemagazine.com has quarterly issues. Their archives have a fair number of articles about the problems with wolves.

Art

[KimberTLE.45]

Wow, That was one hell of a story. I feel sorry for the authors loss. All I can say is first off I would not be running around in the wilderness taking pictures of bears without some sort of sidearm on me at ALL times. The wolf that lunged at the author would have been full of .45 holes had it been me.

[HKGuns]

Cosmoline wrote: But if the folks in Id don't want wilderness, then so be it. I think we should reintroduce brown bear and wolves into California first, as the need for a dose of reality there is greatest.

I agree with all of your sentiments. Makes me want to move to Alaska. The one quoted above is absolutely PRICELESS!!

Birddog wrote: Nice job in breaking down the idiocy into digestible, confrontable bits. Threads like this just boggle the mind and give me little hope for the future of hunting if this is how a bunch of gun owners respond to the idea of hunting with hounds. What's next, bird dogs? I know I know...I've already gotten the nasty emails, like when my last book came out.

Don't get frustrated by the "it's cool to be tactical" crowd that don't identify with hunting. As a hunter, I agree with your sentiments regarding the "tactical crowd" (which is what they really are). However, I also find fault that most hunters see no threat to their firearm ownership and ignore the politics of gun ownership completely.

[Harve Curry]

H&H Hunter has it right.

Within 10 miles of my place the USFW released a male and female in April.
At last count in June the pair killed 8 beef cows w/calves. The calves were not always found. The wolves just ate the milk udders and went to kill another.

Some facts:
There must be 3 seperate incidents before a wolf/wolves can be declared killers and removed by trap or "lethal means" . It doesn't matter how many domestic livestock are killed, 3 seperate incidents .
Once a kill order is authorized only a goverment employee can shoot a wolf and only under certain rules.
Only in the defense of human life is shooting a wolf legal and you better be able to prove you were in danger. Nothing else matters. The wolf is covered by the 1973 Endangered Species Act.
Penalties are listed here http://www.fws.gov/endangered/esa.html#Lnk11

and the main page here http://www.fws.gov/ifw2es/mexicanwolf/

There is a $500,000.00 reward posted locally for a wolf killed illegally.


I believe that it is the same people and mentality of enviroment/wildlife saver groups as do that want gun control. So to side with the wolf reintroduction is to side with the same people who would take our gun rights away.