[Nightcrawler]

I have a question. Today, for serious use, a detachable magazine fed, self loading rifle is considered ideal. It's what the military uses, and provides large capacity with a high rate of fire. Modern semiautomatic rifles provide a considerable advantage in these terms over, say, a lever action or bolt action rifle.

And yet, for shotguns, a tube-fed manually operated design is still prettymuch tops. There are semiautos out there, but many consider them to be too unreliable and too ammo sensative to be for "serious" use. First of all, is this true? If so, why? If they could make a reliable self loading rifle in 1918 (Browning M1918), why can't they make a reliable self loading shotgun now?

Manually operated, fixed magazine rifles used to be standard issue for military, but they evolved into self loading or select fire arms with detachable box magazines. Rimmed cartridges gave way to rimless ones to ease stacking in magazines and improve feeding in these weapons.

Yet the rimmed 12-gauge pump shotgun soldiers on, just like it did 100 years ago, a true testament to the effectiveness of the design.

But then, a .30-30 lever rifle is good enough for most police/civil "social" situations too.


One would assume that shotguns would evolve along with rifles and handguns. Yet this doesn't seem to be the case; people want large box magazines and semiautomatic (or higher) rates of fire from their rifles and handguns, yet are content with a fixed tube magazine and manual operation in a pump shotgun.

So how come we haven't developed more modern, rimless shotgun rounds, that feed from large box magazines in self-loading or select fire designs? Stupid laws notwithstanding, the military's been using a detachable box mag long arm since World War 1 (the BAR).

Now, of course, with a tube fed shotgun, you get the advantage of the "shoot one, reload one" method. You get the same advantage with a lever rifle, yet we don't see too many SWAT teams out there with Winchester 94s.

Obviously, if there was DEMAND for a new, rimless shotgun round, and a shotgun that fed from large box magazines, all of the companies would be making them. Even with our dumb gun laws, the law enforcement market would be buying them. Yet the one attempt to do this, the HK CAWS, was cancelled after a few prototypes. And standard, big rimmed shotgun shells don't lend themselves to box magazines.

So the BIG question is (and I'm sorry I was so wordy in explaining it), why does the market demand large capacity, box fed semiauto rifles and handguns, yet not demand the same from shotguns? Do people (including law enforcement and military) really use their shotguns so differently from their rifles that 20 or 30+1 is required/desired for a rifle but 4-8+1 is good enough for a shotgun?

(Don't get me wrong, I love pump shotguns. Just wondering here.)

[Skunkabilly]

FWIW I agree with you...I wouldn't mind getting a reliable box fed semi shotty. Probably hold 6 rounds or so before the mag starts to get too big, but why the heck not?

[Andrew Wyatt]

different ammunition types.


the shotgun is the only firearm with such a wide variety of ammunition available, and the only one where you might need one of them NOW, but still need to go back to buckshot for the next shot.



you can't do a very effective select slug with a saiga if you only have one magazine.

[Soap]

I think the shotgun is limited by its shell size. In order for it to be effective, the round has to be big in payload, and thus in size. This fact handicaps the number of designs that can be done with the shotgun.

[Kobun]

Are you guys dreaming of a gun like this?
http://www.izhmash.ru/pix/saiga12k.jpg

It is a Saiga (http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/weapon.shtml) 12K.

I am importing a bunch of these. :)
K.

[MrAcheson]

The pump shotgun is popular for the same reason that pistol (revolver) caliber lever actions are popular. Its a simple and elegant solution to the problem.

The reason that most of the world went to box mags was pointed bullets and, to some extent, rimless cartridges. Shotguns don't have either. You can use box mags but then you run into potential rimlock and you still can't have more than 8 rounds without the mag becoming cumbersome. And shotgun ammo is heavy. Do you really want to carry that much of it around?

In a semi-auto shotgun, the action is automatically (pun!) less tolerant of different ammo types. Shotguns and revolvers are inherently flexible and that is one of their primary strengths. Slugs, light, heavy, its all good. You need to worry about bullet shape and weight and OAL and all sorts of other problems with automatics. How annoying.

[Nightcrawler]

Well said, everyone.

Kobun, I would like a Saiga 12K, with the 16" barrel and folding stock. However, such a creature would violate at least three major federal US firearms laws.

I'll have to settle for the Saiga 12 with the "sporter" stock, 19" barrel, and 5 round mags. But, it's still cool.

I do, of course, have a pumpgun available as well. :)

[Kobun]

Nightcrawler, I should have mentioned that the model I have ordered is the 12K but with the long barrel.
This is so the gun will be legal for hunting also.

But check out their airguns! (http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/yunker2.shtml) :D

I just HAVE to get me one of those. :p

[foghornl]

Hmmmm....

How big and heavy would a 16-to-20 round double-stack 12Ga mag be ? ? ?

Probably bulky to the point of only carrying 1 reload.....

[Nightcrawler]

A mag-fed shotgun wouldn't, ideally, TAKE conventional 12 gauge rounds.

I'm thinking somthing more compact, with brass or alloy shells, that's rimless, so as to fit in magazines.

A double-stack 15 round mag wouldn't be that big of a deal. It'd be wide, but so what?

The weapon wouldn't have to be excessively heavy, either. Polymer parts. Titanium parts. Carbon fiber parts. It doesn't have to be a Remington 11-87 with a magazine coming out of it.

[Kobun]

Saiga 12 can have a 8 round mag at most.
Any bigger than that, and they had problems with feeding because of the weight.

[Correia]

Nightcrawler, I agree with part of your idea, but not all of it.

I do think that we are in need of modernized shotgun ammo. I don't see any reason that we can't design much more effective shotgun ammo. I don't think there has been much R&D thrown at making SG ammo much more effective since the 70s. (besides plated and buffered shot, and a few oddities like Quadrangle buckshot). Personally I want them to bring back the Schimitar. :)

However I don't see the box magazine being the answer. Shotgun shells by their nature are wide, they have to be to accomodate payload. a 5 shot mag for a Saiga is a bit bigger than a 20 round .308 magazine. The 8 shot mags are enormous. The USAS drum mag (20 IIRC) is huge. These are great and all, but their bulkiness kind of precludes carrying large numbers of magazines like we can with .223 or .308 on an LBE.

Plus from what I have been told, high cap box mags are tough on plastic shells. The bottom ones get squished and then don't feed right. Necessitating more expensive brass shells. This is second hand though, I don't know for sure.

As for the rim, it isn't that big of a deal. The Saiga mag has a pretty neat feature that keeps rim lock from happening.

Here is the kicker though, the shotgun in modern warefare is a 2nd string gun. Been that way forever, so it of course isn't going to see near as much R&D. That is why 97% of our serious shotguns are based on sporting guns. That isn't going to change anytime soon.

Don't get me wrong, I love shotguns. I'm the guy that wins all of the shotgun stages in our local 3 gun matches, (luckily for the other contestants I'm only mediocre with a pistol!). So I'm a bonafide shotgun nut, but in a military context (the kind you are talking about) the vast majority of the troops are going to be better off with a carbine.

The gun companies know that.

Look at the RHINO project. (Repeating Hand held Non rifled Ordnance) The Army went looking for a super shotgun. That was what the HK CAWS, Pancor Jackhammer, and the funky super S&W were developed for. When all was said and done, the Army didn't adopt any of them. Instead they bought a few crates of Mossbergs.

Now I still think that there is a market for a dedicated HD shotgun designed from the ground up. Trust me, when I build that one I'm going to consult with Dave McC. :) However right now the market is satisfied with their sporter derived guns, so there is no financial incentive for the gun companies.

[CMichael]

When I bought my last car I figured that I would have it for a long time. I therefore decided to not get power windows.

It's similar with a shotgun. The more simple it is mechanically the less chance of something going wrong and the more reliable it is.

[MLH]

Cost?:confused:

[Dave McCracken]

OK, leaving the cost issue aside, here's some armchair "Serious" shotgun designing. This would have military significance for urban warfare and counter guerilla action, as well as HD, CD and just plain fun.

First,it should use standard ammo. Logistics are the first things to go in combat. Ammo should be easily available, whether from the Armory or Abdullah's Bait and Tackle.

Second, to aid both the capacity and versatility of the weapon,the magazine should be a tube, easily detachable but capable of shoot one, load one.

Imagine a barrel with a hook under the muzzle the magazine butts into. The other end of the mag fits into the receiver with some sort of latch. BTW, the barrel should be VERY heavy by current standards. In place, it can be reloaded with single rounds,or totally replaced with a loaded unit, several of which can be carried. A cotter pin can keep the extra mags full of ammo. A forearm assembly/grip can be molded into each magazine. And the magazine can be made of something like Zytel for strength w/o weight.

The muzzle should have internal threads for things like suppressors,flash hiders, choke tubes,grenade launchers etc. Bayonet capability optional.

The gas system should be of the Kalishnikov type like the Saiga. And mounted over the barrel to give the magazine more accessibility.

A straightline stock and high sights like an AR, with a Pic rail on the reciever and more on each side of the muzzle for lasers, NVDs, taclights and so on.

I'd want the feel and controls similar to the AR system for ease of training, and a grip safety just because.

No full auto or burst, the soldier/shooter that can control such a beast would be better used to man an M-60.

Bring this in with an O/A length of 36-38" and weight of less than 9 lbs loaded, and you've a winner....

[Nightcrawler]

I want one.

The detachable tube idea is a good one, too. The shotgun troops could carry a few extra tubes plus pouches/banoliers of 12ga shells.

I imagine that operating in pair, one with a rifle and one with a shotgun (much like they did with the Krag and the 1897 in the Phillippine insurrection) they'd be pretty well equipped for urban warfare.

[Kobun]

Dave,
Why not put the mag on top, and instead of one, have two mags...
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1135396

K.

[Nightcrawler]

Kobun, are you saying you guys can actually GET Neosteads there?

The ATF won't allow their importation here. :cuss: :banghead: :fire:

[Kobun]

Nightcrawler,
I'm the distributor here.

Any THR'ers that come her can try it out. :)
K.

[Nightcrawler]

Well, I've got exams this week. Maybe next weekend I'll just PACK UP AND FLY TO FRIGGIN' NORWAY.

LOL

...say...Kobun, buddy...how's about mailing me a box of "scrap metal"...eh? Nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more, eh?

(I'm kidding, Mr. ATF..excuse me, BATFE guy who may be reading this. But just so you know, the guys at the FBI say the ATF is a bunch of nancy-boys and that they can kick your butts.) :neener:

[Skunkabilly]

Kobun, how's the Japanese food in Norway?

[Frohickey]

I'd take a pump action or lever action 12 gauge shotgun using rimless cases that can tolerate 45,000 PSI of pressure... I'd call it the 729 Nitro Express. :D

[Navy joe]

Belt-fed, alternating tracer slug and #4 buck. Shoot until the desired effect is achieved. Hey, a guy can dream right?

[Dave McCracken]

The Neostad looks nice, but I'd want an after action report as to how it holds up under truly awful conditions. Ever been in a firefight during a monsoon?

Also, 40 years of pumping back means it's hard for an old dinosaur like me to pump forward.

[Andrew Wyatt]

I like the design of a neostead, from my perspective as an engineering student. it's elegant.

why can't they block the tubes off at 5 rounds each and import them?

[Nightcrawler]

I don't think the capacity has much to do with it. Italian 1873 Winchester clones with 24"+ barrels, that hold 11 - 17 rounds in the tube get imported all the time. I think the capacity ban only means for detachable box mags.

I think the ATF just doesn't want to import it because it's "non-sporting". Congress, in all of their wisdom, gave them jurisdiction and discretion in these affairs, after all.

[Kobun]

Skunk, I don't really know much about Japanese food.
But we have a lot of good seafood here.

As for those of you wanting to test the Neostead, and like to shoot IPSC rifle and shotgun,
make plans to come to Norway next summer.
There is going to be the Norwegian Practical Rifle and Shotgun Championship.

It will be great. Rifle ranges of 1-300meters...
:)

The thing I like about the Neostead is the compactness, and the ability to carry two different loads, and select eighter the right, left or alternating feed tubes.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1135407

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1135405


The Neostead design has changed a little.
The guns produced today have feed tubes and chamber that has bigger tolerances.
I've had some feeding problems with mine, but I'm getting the gun upgraded to second gen.
Mine is a fairly early prod model.

K.

[Nightcrawler]

The thing I really like about the Neostead is that it's the first REALLY INNOVATIVE shotgun design to come down the pike in a good while. It takes maximum advantage of what you can do and what you can't do with the current selection of 12 gauge ammunition.

I really want one. If it's reliable and a solid design, I think it'd be about the ulitmate CQB shotgun.

Though, it would be nicer if you could reload the tubes without cracking the thing open, but I don't know if it'd be doable with the design. Still, 6+6+1 capacity is pretty durn good for a shotgun.

[Kobun]

Don't understand what you mean by "cracking" it open.
To load, you push a button on top, and up pops the mag tubes.
You then push the shells into the tubes, all the while you still have a round in the chamber, and you can still fire the gun with one hand.
Of course this is a new system, and takes a little getting used too.

[Nightcrawler]

Oh, so you can still operate it with the tubes up? That's pretty cool.

[Kobun]

Well, you have the one shot in the chamber, and then you will have to close the mag, by pushing down on the tubes, and then pump another round into the chamber.

[Blain]

....I think THIS is what you're looking for.


http://www.newrides.com/files/theflydestroyer.wmv