Why join the military?


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Maser
June 11, 2006, 10:06 PM
First of all I mean no disrespect for anyone serving or who has served. A friend of mine asked a similar question like this over at glocktalk and well, since the immature members of that site didn't flame him, then i'm sure the mature class of members here will not flame me either.

My question is that how come anyone who has served in the military feels like anyone else who has just turned 18 has to also. I mean there's nothing wrong with it. It's an honorable thing and everything, but most people getting out of high school want to go to collage to get good money making careers. I understand that the military pays for collage, but lots of high school graduates already have a good collage fund saved up from all their years in school. I don't like the idea of military recruiters hanging around high school graduations and then trying to pressure new grads to join the military and then if they say no then the recruiters try to make them feel bad saying that they are turing their backs on their country or that they are afraid or stuff like that. Don't try and deny that it happens because it really does. Same thing goes with posting on gun forums. If you say you don't want to join the military then everyone comes down all hard on you and tries to make you feel like a lowlife.

As far as I go. I am NOT joining the military EVER. I can't say the same for my little brother or my son, but I hope they don't join either. Here's my reasons. It has nothing to do with being anti American or that I don't want to serve my country or anything like that. Or even that i'm scared because I have been through a lot in my life so far and I fear nothing except my maker (God). My reason for not joining is the simple fact of my son. Before he came along I most likely would have joined the military, but after Andy was born, I wanted to do anything in my power to be with him as much as I can. I'm sorry to all you military guys defending this great country, but me joining is just too great of a gamble in my life. Even if there was a 100% garentee that I wouldn't get killed in combat I still wouldn't join now. My son is the most important person in my life and I am NOT going to miss any day of him growing up.

There, I hope this clears everything up and lets you all know that i'm not a coward or don't care about my country or the other fine men and women who have fought and/or died for this great country.

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atlctyslkr
June 11, 2006, 10:10 PM
You have made alot of generalizations in your post. While you make some good points, you're probably going to get ripped. I served but I don't carry that chip on my shoulder, it's something I did when I was younger and it's over now.

Dave Rishar
June 11, 2006, 10:17 PM
Not everyone who has served, or is still serving, thinks that service should be mandatory. I certainly don't. We have a volunteer military. If you don't feel like volunteering, don't. There's no need to explain why.

Maser
June 11, 2006, 10:18 PM
Oh I don't mind the fact that i'm going to get ripped. I just wanted to give valid reasons for my own self not joining. All i'm asking is that my decission gets respected and that nobody tries to pressure me into doing otherwise. I don't mind hearing arguments about it or give me valid reasons for joining, but please make sensible comments and not a bunch of BS saying i'm stabbing my country in the back. If that was the case then I wouldn't salute the US flag everyday and include this great country in my prayers everynight before bed.

rbernie
June 11, 2006, 10:20 PM
I served because at the time I enlisted I felt as if I was out of options. During my service, I learned a lot about myself and about the options I really had (and have). I gained a significant respect for the military, and I learned to recognize its shortcomings for what they are. I elected to NOT re-up, but am glad for having done a stint.

I now have three kids. If any of them told me that they were seriously contemplating a stint or a career in the military, I'd not try to talk them into it nor out of it. I understand why it would be of interest.

YellowLab
June 11, 2006, 10:20 PM
Because service will get you better opportunites MOST of the time.

I've gotten jobs over non-vets because, well, I was a vet. Just about every state will have 'Veterans Preferance' on Civil Service exams (I scored 113 on my Civil Service test... was ranked 1 out of 1200+ applicants, Veterans preferance was +10 points added to the final score).

I go to interviews and I make sure that I always put my Navy service on the app, even though it may not be in 'chronological' order.

When it comes my time to do the hiring, all things considered, the Vet get the nod over a non-vet. Why? Because an Honerable Discharge says something about a person character... and while you are hiring a person for thier skills, character (trustworthyness, initiative etc) means A LOT. Sure you can be a dirtbag with an Honerable Discharge... but there are exception to EVERY rule.

Lebben-B
June 11, 2006, 10:24 PM
"A pity that youth is wasted on the young"

- George Bernard Shaw

warriorsociologist
June 11, 2006, 10:28 PM
Are you sincerely looking for "reasons someone else would join" or merely looking for a place to post what you didn't?

Of course there are lots of ways to serve...and many new fathers & mothers choose to join up anyway and/or don't whine when deployed (if already in). I remember my last deployment news hit me 1 week before I was supposed to finish my PhD exams (I was in the reserve at the time) and not only did I have to wait 'till I got back to continue working on it...and be away from wife, take a pay-cut, yadda-yadda... I NEVER complained. Sure, the timing royally sucked...but I reasoned that I joined knowing this was part of the deal... I had fully taken advantage of the GI Bill and such for almost 9 years by then & now it was my turn to repay my end of the bargain...that's all. Hell, when I got back to find my PhD committee were all either working at new institutions or retired which forcing me to change programs/sell house & move me & wife across the country & start my program mostly over at the U that my committee chair had relocated (adding 2+ years) - did I grumble a bit at my bad luck...sure. Did I bitch and moan "poor me, damn the government for messing up my life" to anyone else...hell no. Not then, not ever. In fact, this is actually one of the first times I have laid this all out and it's been over 2 years since I have been back.

My point is, if you are compelled to serve your country, like I was and many of us here were, you can do it in the military or elsewhere. Does it involve personal hardship? Sure – “freedom isn’t free” – right? If your question is asked the right way, this thread should generate some good replies...but if you start down the path you took on SnipersHide, it may not.

wingnutx
June 11, 2006, 10:28 PM
I get a lot of satisfaction out of being the 'thin red line'.

Somebody has to do it, might as well be me.

Same reason I do EMT work on the civilian side.

I probably read too much Heinlein as a lad. (as if that is possible)

warriorsociologist
June 11, 2006, 10:32 PM
Are you sincerely looking for "reasons someone else would join" or merely looking for a place to post what you didn't?


I guess your second post answered this before I hit "send" on mine.
Ok then. Like someone said above....if you don't want to join...don't. If it bothers you that some end up giving you a hard time for it, well, get a thicker skin. :) I think you are pretty self-assured for someone you age and you shouldn't worry too much about what others think here. This is afterall "only the internet" - right?

BullfrogKen
June 11, 2006, 10:32 PM
I don't fault you one bit for wanting to spend time with your family. I've watched MANY fellow Marines' marriages fail; whether the service contributed, who can tell?


I am AGAINST mandatory service, 100%. It DOES NOT make people better. Good people join the military voluntarily, and good people benefit from it by virtue of being good people. Scum doesn't. Compulsory service destroys anything, as people forced into it don't want to be there, and rightfully feel like slaves. Anytime its brought up in front of me, I denounce it.


I joined for personal reasons. I don't mention it in job interviews to gain points. I keep it to myself. My friends know about my past, but to me, its my past, its mostly an afterthought.

wingnutx
June 11, 2006, 10:41 PM
I am also against mandatory conscription, fwiw.

Mauserguy
June 11, 2006, 10:42 PM
I never served in the military, but I have known many people who have. It is a personal decision that springs from many areas- love of country, college money, desire to have a little adventure, to gain leadership skills and discipline or to simply get a start in life. There are lots of valid reasons to join the military, and if you decide not to do so, okay, that's your decision.

Regarding barring recruiters from schools, well, that smacks of restricting free speach. I don't like that.
Mauserguy

Maser
June 11, 2006, 10:53 PM
Ok then. Like someone said above....if you don't want to join...don't. If it bothers you that some end up giving you a hard time for it, well, get a thicker skin. I think you are pretty self-assured for someone you age and you shouldn't worry too much about what others think here. This is afterall "only the internet" - right?

See, the problem is that I have a very carismatic attitude and I do care a lot about my image. If I feel that my image is being threatened either in real life or in cyber space I will defend it at all costs. Being my age and not technically a man yet and being called a coward will definatly hit below the belt. I feel that giving a good reason as to why I am or am not doing something and setting the record straight is a courteous thing to do.

mikeb3185
June 11, 2006, 11:03 PM
iam 22 married (my wife is in too) and have been serving for 4.5 years, in the air force. and i truly believe the military s not for everyone. i have said "that guy needs basic" but that is my way of saying that they need some help in how to act. by no means is the military for everyone or a fix-all. so if you belive it is not for you, then its not period

strambo
June 11, 2006, 11:03 PM
Thankfully, we live in a country with vast resources so we don't need you. Don't sweat it, no explanation necessary.

Now, if the entire population shared your sentiments (not implying they're bad/wrong) we'd be in trouble.

Zen21Tao
June 11, 2006, 11:16 PM
My question is that how come anyone who has served in the military feels like anyone else who has just turned 18 has to also.

I think that most who have served in the military (myself included) would say that military service offers valuable life lessons but that it is an undertaking that should be chosen not required.

most people getting out of high school want to go to collage to get good money making careers. I understand that the military pays for collage,
I personally feel that money for college should never be a reason for joining the military. The military deserves better than losers that slacked off in school so much that the military is the only way they can find to pay for a college. For those that work hard and excell in school there are grants and scholarships available. For everone else there are student loans.

The number one reason, in my opinion, to serve in the military is out of a patriotic desire to serve the country. It infuriates me to see those that join the military for college money or an extra weekend pay check whine like a little girl when they are called up to go serve during war time.

I don't like the idea of military recruiters hanging around high school graduations and then trying to pressure new grads to join the military and then if they say no then the recruiters try to make them feel bad saying that they are turing their backs on their country or that they are afraid or stuff like that. Don't try and deny that it happens because it really does. Same thing goes with posting on gun forums.

I don't disagree with recruiters being allowed on school campuses but I do agree that they shouldn't be trying to pressure someone to join. In fact, I don't even think that they should be advertising the benefits that come from military service (e.g. college fund). They should sit back and wait for the students that come to them and ingrain in them that military service should only be done for patriotic reasons. If they wan't college money they should get grants, earn scholarships, or take out loans. If they want a trade they should go to a trade school. If they want an extra paycheck learn to flip burgers.

If you say you don't want to join the military then everyone comes down all hard on you and tries to make you feel like a lowlife.


No one should come down on anyone for not serving in the military. The military isn't for everybody. In fact, as I said before, I think that many of the problems within the military are the result of the wrong types of people serving for the wrong types of reasons.

Edmond
June 11, 2006, 11:17 PM
No need to explain to us. Some people like Ford while other like Chevy. It's all your thing.

Whatever you end up doing, someone is going to disagree. Like some of the guys I know who were in the military. Some guys look down on them because they've never seen combat. WTH? That doesn't make any sense at all. To me, I consider you military if you graduate. Kind of like college. As long as you see something through from beginning to end, I think you've done quite well.

I don't think employers will look at your military history to see if you've fought, where you've fought and how many people you've plugged. I think they'd like to see that you had the discipline and determination to see something through. Seeing something through over a period of time like that, whether it be college or military, should be something that you should be proud of.

As for me, I am a college grad, I'm only 26 and I haven't ruled out OCS. If I do it, it'll be for college money and to learn leadership skills.

badgerw
June 11, 2006, 11:27 PM
I spent 25 years in the Army and Army Reserve. Some of it sucked (I refer to those times as "adventures") and most of it was great.

I have a son (17), a daughter (11), and am in the process of adopting my two stepdaughters (12 and 6). My wife and I had a son last year who died suddenly.

I've had the question asked of me, "Would you send your son/daughter to [insert current unpleasant location]?" Well, I can't send them, as this is an all-volunteer military.

But I think the realk question is, "If not my son/daughter, then whose?"

If not me, then who?

I would give up my life for my children. Easy choice. Being willing to do the same for something bigger than yourself takes a bit more.

Perhaps you'd do well to read Henry V's speech to his men on the eve of Agincourt.

I personally would be ashamed to expect someone to risk their life on my behalf, while I was unwilling to do the same.

Figure it out.

Bill

KC&97TA
June 11, 2006, 11:38 PM
I joined the Marine Corps in Sept 1998 at the beginning of my Sr year, I went to Boot Camp in Aug 1999 and never looked back. I rarely keep in touch with any friends I had in high school, my family is a telephone call away, some times they don't hear from me for months at a time. I've gained Friends that will last a life time. How my marrage continues to work out I do not know, maybe it's because my wife is active duty or maybe it is that we are truely sole mates or some crazy thing they call love, or maybe we're just crazy enough to make it all work out.

The best of times have been the worst of times; battered and bloody, looking for an American Cigaret only to bump into Reporters that don't smoke cause it's bad for your health(like the city of Ramadii is good for anything), takeing bets on who will shoot at you next, being away from home with 42 of your men, plus a couple of Corps Man, who you've come so close to, that you know thier wifes, kids, girlfriends, some of thier parents, when they "do a #2 durring the day", what thier tatoos mean, thier grades in highschool, knowing that each day you're in harms way, and each day, maybe the day I have to zip one of these men up in a bag. Some civilians talk about, "how hard things are"... thier problems are usally easier to digest than a months worth of MRE's.

As far as dieing goes... I have shrapenal in 6 areas of my body; been blown up by 2 IED's, 1 RPG, had way too many close calls with Rockets and mortars, Tactical Vehicle accidents and been shot at more times than I could ever count... I've even had close calls with some of my own demo. If God Wants me, He knows were to find me. I'm not down for dieing for my country, I'm in it to kill for my country.

I don't know when I'll leave the Corps, not till after Jan 2010 with this last enlistment... I wear what I've earned right thier on my sleave, Purple Heart Licence Plates and an attitude, that I've "been there". I feel that anyone who is a Veteran of a Foreign War, deserves a parking spot up front and a discount on every meal. I don't even have to say were this country would be with out it's brave men, protesting and talking only make it so far, those men who have picked up arms, the ones lucky enough or well trained enough to make it back home, have shapped this country.

Many men join, "to serve thier country" what ever that means... you soon learn that you do it for the men; in charge of you, your men below you, and any man who takes a fire position in your pause. You even do it for the pansy's that have more time in service/grade than you that have been able to scam out of every Iraq deployment. Being GI Joe takes alot out of a man, and I'll tell you that the temper gets short for the civilians who "don't understand". What those who have served have earned and been given, isn't something that can not be bought for any price.

Those Recruiters have a hard job, and high school kids are the best ones to enlist; The Very Best, Put them in Boot Camp at 18, they're out at 22 and ont with thier lives. War is a young mans game, you have to move quick, shoot quick, think quick, put some weight on your back and not be tied down to drama back home. Those High Schools and Colleges that object to the Recruiters and ROTC, they can become private schools or welcome the recruiters with fake smiles. I'm all for makeing everyone serve in one way or another, those who don't want to join the "Active Duty Regular" should be part of thier "States National Guard". The Military has alot to offer, besides Being GI Joe. "If you haven't been there you wouldn't understand", sums up everything. What better way to prepare for SHTF or RAHOWA than the US Military Training.

But your " WHY? "... was never a question to some of us... our " WHY " is "WHY? do it for men who ask, WHY?"

rangerruck
June 11, 2006, 11:54 PM
well , let me start by saying , good for you . You are not supposed to join the military, you have a job to do here. I can't say what recruiters you have been listening to, so i will say if you have heard them talking to peeps like that , you should turn them in. However, i am going to say i doubt that part of your story, it is just something you heard somewhere. From what I have been reading , all branches of military have been hitting their recruiting goals, or darn near, and it has allways been that way, except during Carter, and Clinton.
I am ex military, and wouldn't trade my service for anything, in fact i have been thinking of going "over there" in a private contractor role. Why you may ask? Because of something you may not understand, but some people have been born with a gift of help. Some people are gifted for sports , music, singing, acting. Look at the Chunky Chicks, and Tiger woods. They were allready practicing their craft at a very young age.
The bible calls this gift, and describes these positions, such as doctors, nurses, civil servants, police, and more importantly, soldiers. In both old and new testaments , the bible proudly describes these folks, that this is someting they are called to , no different than preachers, prophets, evangelists, teachers, and ministers. There is a verse that i will paraphrase," Beware that you do not lay a hand on any of these soldiers CALLED BY MY NAME, for they carry the sword and the word of truth in their hearts. King David was called by God and others "a man after My own heart." Why? it is because from the time David was a 13 year old boy, his goal was to remove evil from out of the land, Same goal as our Father's.
I am sure you know people in your own lifetime, that just felt the need to serve, to volunteer, help out community services, help food kitchens, churches, etc. this is the gift of Helps.
but it is the folks called to military service, who have it in their hearts, and go, that are extra special to God. they are mentioned freely in the old and new testaments.
If you are not a God fearing man, then let me paraphrase a small speech made by a General, made sometime ago, not sure when it was, and I think the person is not attributed.
"Throughout every generation, there are young men and women who put on the uniform, and perform their call to service. I thank God for those young people, to do what most will never do , they do willingly, they are serving their country and they are glad to go. Every generation has this group of young folks , and I thank Him daily for it, and I fear the day, for myself and this country , that a generation comes up that is not called to service, for that will be the ruin of our military, and the end of our country."
My wish for you sir, is to install fine values in your sons, and if they decide to join the military, HONESTLY teach them the pro's and cons of service, get them to talk to veterans, but don't try to talk them out of it, if you see it is their true desire, not just something they are thinking might be cool to do.
I wish I could be more eloquent im my desire to confer to you why people join, I can explain on a cerebral , mental level, about math, electricity, logic, etc., and I love mathematics, and physics, truly. But this is more from the heart, and it cannot be done simply with x's and o's and numbers, facts and logic. Some people are called , some know Who Is; calling them, some do not, but just know that is what they are supposed to do.

Olys45
June 11, 2006, 11:56 PM
From the standpoint of a former Air Force Recruiter all I can say is that I didn't "pressure" anybody to join.
With some people you have to hound them and try to corner them to get a straight answer out of them and that is were we get a bad rap on the whole deal. I never once "pressured" somebody that was not interested, or showed an interest. I always had a problem with somebody that asked for information and/or came in for an appointment, then never had the guts to tell me that they were not interested. I wasted a lot of time trying to get a straight answer out of them. A simple, "No thanks, I changed my mind" would've helped!

The other group that I hated to deal with was the clowns that entered the Delayed Enlistment Program, took a job and then deicded not to leave for Basic. 99% of them are chumps and wimps, a total waste of time. The other miniscule percentage had a vaild excuse and I didn't mind to see them go.

As for promoting the college/voc training, it is a fact and some people need that brought to their attention. With the state of the "most" teachers/counselors in the high schools today we need to advertise this fact. Why should somebody take out huge loans when they can have Uncle Sam help them out? It is not a handout, but a reward.
Depending on the job, I could set somebody up with the same exact training, real life experience and they could come away with a A.A.S. degree with a little bit of extra work on their part. Just for serving thier country for 4 years. How many people on the outside of the Air Force would know that?

Mauserguy
June 12, 2006, 12:13 AM
I may be attacked for this statement, but I will say it. There has bee a lot of talk about college in this thread. I personally have seven years under my belt, but I have to say that most of the people coming out of college are worthless. The military veterans that my company has hired have, however, never failed to perform acceptably.

Vets may not be well polished, and they may not have in depth knowledge of "business theory", but they know how to work hard without complaints. I'm sure that you can find a loser in any group, but in my experience, most college grads are worthless, vets, however, know how to try hard.
Mauserguy

Sam
June 12, 2006, 12:20 AM
Maser,
I really can't see why you brought up the subject at all.

I am against conscription and for Universal Military Training

I wanted to join, I did, spent 26 years active duty. Lived through it even though I didn't always enjoy it. It was good for me and for America and for several hundred sons and daughters of Americans that I was able influence in a positive way and 2 that I saved.

If you don't want to join, don't. We don't have room for folks that want something other than to defend the nation in an active way.
Oh, don't expect anyone to have much respect for your opinion on things military.

Sam

warriorsociologist
June 12, 2006, 12:22 AM
See, the problem is that I have a very carismatic attitude and I do care a lot about my image. If I feel that my image is being threatened either in real life or in cyber space I will defend it at all costs. Being my age and not technically a man yet and being called a coward will definatly hit below the belt. I feel that giving a good reason as to why I am or am not doing something and setting the record straight is a courteous thing to do.

Sounds good. I am only suggesting that if the "image" others have of you seems to not match the one you have for your self...you may have to learn to shrug it off and be confident enough to not worry about it or think hard about whether or not the "other(s) have a valid point. Charisma has often more to do with what others see in you than what you see in yourself though (the later is “confidence” and it is often the by-product of the former)…though, you seem to “have you head screwed on right” based on some of the posts I have seen you make in times past, so it looks like you have come a long way in a short period of time. Remember that you will never change the minds of some folks...and you probably shouldn't care if you do. Also (not to sound “preachy – as this is already longer than I had planned) remember that your world view is the product of your life experience & learning...it will likely continuously evolve and change and you move through life.

I guess what I am saying to you is if someone calls you a coward for not joining the military, I doubt what you have posted will change their tune. Such simple-mindedness is rarely amenable to reason. If your reasons are good enough for you, then that should be enough for you. You can't win over everyone...and trying to do so "at all costs" isn't likely a worthwhile endeavor. I think more people respect quiet self-assurance than loud boastfullness by a loud margin. Now, go take care of that fine family of yours. :)

Take care.

SAG0282
June 12, 2006, 12:23 AM
You serve to protect your country, and you serve to be a part of something bigger then yourself.

Maser
June 12, 2006, 12:52 AM
Thanks guys for listening to what I have to say and not coming down hard on me. It's not a thing that I couldn't handle being in the military because if you knew me in real life then you would know that's completly untrue. I would make a great soldier if I chose to be one because my parents have showed me great discipline over my lifetime so far. My uncle has taught me a few military hand to hand combat techniques. Also whenever i'm at his house and on his land I feel like a soldier with his CO because of the way I have to talk to him. He's a real military type of person who served in desert storm with my dad and he knows that I don't want to join the military and yet doesn't say anything about it. All he says is that it's my discission and that if and/or when I decide to join then I would be made into one of the greatest soldiers ever. He does real wonders into boosting my ego and I love that.

usmarine0352_2005
June 12, 2006, 12:59 AM
Well, first off, going to college would help you spell "college" and "decision" correctly.

"Those who don't fight for freedom, certainly shouldn't expect it."


When I got out, a friend who was going to get out, re-enlisted because of the war. He had a gorgeous, pro-football cheerleader wife, 3 kids, and everything going for him.

He was killed by a roadside bomb.

Because of him I get to live free. I don't thank God, I don't thank spirits, I don't thank fairy tales. I thank him everyday for that. And the men and women every day who serve.

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell

greg700
June 12, 2006, 01:06 AM
I am in the military. I also graduated college before joining. In fact, my father who served more than twenty years tried to talk me out of joining, though he has supported my decision completely.

I see absolutely no reason why you should be expected to join the military. It isn't for everyone. And I don't mean that in a chest thumping I'm better than you are way. Rather, we have to put up with a fantastic amount of bull****, and deal with a day to day grind that is monotonous at best (and I am luckier than most). There are many ways to serve your country and most of them have nothing to do with the armed forces.

If you don't want to join the military then simply say so, nobody should require further explanation from you. Ultimately, despite all the other reasons people will give you most soldiers joined the military because they wanted to. Service and patriotism are great, but they are doing a job they love.

That being said, I make a huge distinction between someone who decides to not volunteer for service, and someone who shirks a duty that has been placed upon them. If you dodged the draft/refused to deploy/went AWOL/deliberately got chaptered out then I have nothing to say to you. You don't have to volunteer for service, but if times ever get rough and service is asked of you then you had better be willing to man up and go.

usmarine0352_2005
June 12, 2006, 01:10 AM
Second what greg700 said.

wingnutx
June 12, 2006, 01:18 AM
My question is that how come anyone who has served in the military feels like anyone else who has just turned 18 has to also.

I don't think everyone has to, and I don't think any of my GI buddies think that way either. Hell, we definitely have a few people that never should have enlisted in the first place.

Walter
June 12, 2006, 01:24 AM
hanks guys for listening to what I have to say and not coming down hard on me. It's not a thing that I couldn't handle being in the military because if you knew me in real life then you would know that's completly untrue. I would make a great soldier if I chose to be one because my parents have showed me great discipline over my lifetime so far. My uncle has taught me a few military hand to hand combat techniques. Also whenever i'm at his house and on his land I feel like a soldier with his CO because of the way I have to talk to him. He's a real military type of person who served in desert storm with my dad and he knows that I don't want to join the military and yet doesn't say anything about it. All he says is that it's my discission and that if and/or when I decide to join then I would be made into one of the greatest soldiers ever. He does real wonders into boosting my ego and I love th

Well, first off, going to college would help you spell "college" and "decision" correctly.

First of all, the ability to spell "college" and "decision", if I remember correctly,
is about 5th grade-level ability. I don't think anyone who can't spell above
a 5th grade level ability should be allowed into college. Just my opinion.

Secondly, I don't understand why someone so opposed to military service
for himself would come on a forum like this and seek approval of his
attitude.

While there is a war on, there is no "Draft". Why go out of your way to
stir up controversy where it doesn't have to exist?

Just my wonderings.....

Walter

Hoploholic
June 12, 2006, 01:30 AM
Everything seems to be an absolute to you Maser. I will never do this, I will defend that bitterly, I always so this...ect. You are a young guy, and your attitudes reflect this. There are few absolutes in this life, things just don't work out that way. You can absolutely be sure of this though. While you enjoy the nearness of your child, there are thousands of men who haven't seen their little ones in months. They feel the pain dearly, but also know that they cannot just sit back and enjoy the bounties of this country without doing their fair share. Part of being a man is knowing that some sacrifices are worth making. When one man decides not to serve, that means some other poor SOB will be away from those he loves that much longer. I love this country. The gov't has gone to pot but we still enjoy more freedoms than any other nation. We are the bravest men and women of the highest moral fiber. Be mindful that when I say country, the Feds don't figure. There is a trend of late that really makes me sick though. I am tired of the "me now at all costs" nihilism of the younger Americans. The individual is priceless, but some just plain have an over inflated opinion of they place in the grand scheme of things.

Jorg Nysgerrig
June 12, 2006, 01:38 AM
I would make a great soldier if I chose to be one because my parents have showed me great discipline over my lifetime so far.

After reading your profile, I have to wonder exactly what kind of "great discipline" resulted in you being an unmarried parent living at home at the tender age of 16.

I would think that one would be more concerned about how you're going to deal with being a father than what some people on an internet messageboard thought about your choice to not join the military.

In the end, not many of us here are concerned whether you join the military or not. You've got a tough path ahead of you, there's no need to invent worries about how a bunch of strangers perceive a decision they weren't aware you had made.

Good luck out there.

ETA: But, your spelling errors aside, I have to admit you write more coherently than most teenagers, so you've got that going for you. :)

warriorsociologist
June 12, 2006, 01:39 AM
Thanks Hoploholic for saying what I failed to articulate.

Len
June 12, 2006, 01:54 AM
I don't know you, Maser, nor anything about you. You say you're "charismatic," and glad your uncle helps your "ego." I'll take you at your word.

As I read your post, I only wondered why you set up the "straw man." In other words, you post, and then preface by stating which responses you want to hear, and which you don't.

First, I come from a background of having been drafted once, several years after ETS, reenlisting. No one who has served would ever "pressure" you to join. Neither do your peers have any right to judge or pressure you regarding your decision. It's not for everyone. But, and I hope no one takes this the wrong way, it is never a "given" that anyone can be a good soldier, sailor, marine, coastie! The average civilian thinks that anyone can do it! Not true.

Some people are cut out for it, some aren't. It has no bearing on a man's worth in and of itself. Some men and women are better servants of the republic as civilians. But for those who served, they, in part, helped bestow on you your "right" to choose your life's path.

Hats off to your uncle for showing you some of the ropes...but you'll never know if you could have been a good soldier unless you were one. And you'll never understand the bond that soldiers have experienced, as so nicely stated Shakespeare:

From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;

As those who have served will always be "different" due to the experience, those who did not choose the military will also be "different." There's nothing good or bad about that...it just is.

Harry Paget Flashman
June 12, 2006, 01:58 AM
My question is that how come anyone who has served in the military feels like anyone else who has just turned 18 has to also.

I enlisted in 1965 during the draft and served 26 years. Most of the people I know who served both before and after the military became an all-volunteer force like it better as a volunteer force. It someone doesn't want to serve it's their own private business. No hard feelings here.

No regrets either. Belonging to the largest fraternity in the U.S. is a great feeling.

Rezin
June 12, 2006, 02:02 AM
Since you generalized, so will I.


I find, that on the whole, military folks have more "virtures" like discipline, fortitude, bearing and the like, while civillians tend to be....different.

The military guys are strong. They can handle things when they are not roses and puppies, and still get the job done (I don't even mean physical jobs either) and this really shines in civillian life when things get rough........

My business partner is the perfect example. He has no self control, no discipline to put his p[ersonal feelings aside and get the job done. A Marine, for example will just get done what needs to be done......


Given the choice, I'd hire a vet over a civillian any day... Given the choice, a vet gets my business over the non-vet.


And thanks to vets, I AM given that choice........

Pilgrim
June 12, 2006, 02:09 AM
I have had a number of people come up to me and say, "I wish I had gone into the service when I had the chance." Their reasons are varied, but it seems a number of them feel they somehow came up short when it came to repaying the country for the freedoms and opportunities they have enjoyed throughout their life.

Sgt Stevo
June 12, 2006, 02:25 AM
After my last tour in OEF, I was hurt and I was put in a recruiters office on ADME.

I hated it. I had to explain to kids why they should join. I loved spending my adult life in the Army.

I have been to seventeen countrys. Two wars and had a blast. I also got to go to schools.

I have wife of ten years, a little girl I adore. But if I could get past the broken back and shoulder and leg I got. I would dive in for another ten.

They took great care of me. Lots of operations, hosp stays at Travis, etc. And now I have pension forever.

The reason I joined was it would be a rush. And I have done stuff, you will never do.

I never want the draft to come around. we would get every dirtbag, doper and peace loving nipple ring freak out there. Your country is at war, are you a coward? Only you can answer that. I dont care. But I can tell you, that if I was still an NCO, I would not want you in my team.

ProficientRifleman
June 12, 2006, 03:24 AM
SGT Stevo, Well said.

I joined the Army in the Reagan years. In my first enlistment, I served with the 1st Ranger Bn.

I was proud to be a part of that esteemed and valourous unit.

I was young and idealistic. I wanted to go kill communists. I still think that is a worthwhile activity.

The truth is, that whenever a war breaks out, it is the type "A" personalities who go rushing to the front ( I can do it! And by Golly I will!!!). The sad fact is that this ends up taking some of the best and brightest out of our collective gene pool.

We are left with men like Maser, I quote:

I'm sorry to all you military guys defending this great country, but me joining is just too great of a gamble in my life. Even if there was a 100% garentee that I wouldn't get killed in combat I still wouldn't join now.

Maser, your country is at war NOW. When will you be willing to shoulder YOUR SHARE of that burden? Lets say China invaed North America tomorrow. Would you be willing then? When your friends and neighbors are abandoning their civilian lives and shouldering their burden, would you be willing also?

President Clinton embodied the classic definition of a coward. In his letter to the commander of the ROTC district, he stated (amoung other things) that he wanted to protect himself from physical harm. This is the definition of a coward.

:banghead: Maser reminds me of the kind of man who will refuse to see the Chinese Army as they are crossing the Bearing Strait, saying, "Oh, come on now...you don't REALLY think they will actually invade...now do you? I mean guh... aren't you being a little extreme? I mean jeez, don't you think the Chinese want to live in peace and raise their children...?"

And as the enemy is rolling across the plains, men like Maser will say... "Why is somebody doing something about this?!?!? I mean! We're in danger!"

At what point, Maser, are you willing to shoulder YOUR SHRE of the burden of defending your country? We are at war NOW. We have good men, brave men, determined men, bleeding in the field. And here you sit chanting "...hell no, we won't go!"

I do not want a conscripted army. Conscripts do not fight because of their belief in the mission. They fight because they are thretened with various punishments, if they do not.

I want an Army full of young enthusiats, who will fight when the enemy is far from their shores, who believe strongly in the rightness of their mission and who have nothing for which to apoligise.

Sua Sponte!

Old Dog
June 12, 2006, 04:04 AM
Why should you serve? Perhaps you should not. But, know this -- if you choose not to serve, there's always the possibility that for many years later on in your life, you will always be plagued by the nagging question of whether you could have actually handled military service, and beyond that, perhaps even actual combat.

Those who've served, even those who may have hated every second of their service, usually feel distinct pride in having served.

Those who've served -- whether they barely survived one enlistment or did a full twenty, were quartermaster or signal corps, motor pool, cooks/stew-burners, grunts/infantrymen, supply pukes, admin weenies, twidgets, hole snipes, pecker-checkers, cannon-cockers, cops, airdales, wingnuts, Seabees, tooth-fairies, nukes, skivvy-wavers, intel idjits, or just handed out basketballs and towels at the base gym -- are a cut above, and always will be.

I've seen thirty countries, learned to shoot the 1911 courtesy of the USMC, known some of the world's most beautiful women on some of the world's most beautiful beaches, drank daiquiris and sang "Proud to be an American" at the Daiquiri Palace on Magaluf Beach in Palma, ran from the PCs on Magasaysay at curfew in Olongapo City, smoked cigars at the Raffles in Singapore, had martinis at Harry's Bar in Venice, quaffed VBs in Ned Kelly's Last Stand in Kowloon, Hong Kong, run with the bulls in Pamplona, gazed up at the snows of Mt. Kilimanjaro, bartered with vendors in Mombasa, Dubai, Bahrain, Hong Kong, gazed at the ladies at Bondi Beach in Sydney and Scarborough Beach in Perth (among other things), watched "Shock and Awe" in person, seen actual combat, sweated through the Fallujah summertime ... all thanks to Uncle Sam and over a quarter century in the USN.

Your choice.

U.S.SFC_RET
June 12, 2006, 08:17 AM
Don't worry a single bit about how anyone thinks about you because you don't want to serve. The military IS a sacrifice. IT will DEMAND EVERYTHING from you to include you being a father to your son. It is a personal choice (yours and yours alone to make). You serve this country whether you realize it or not with your tax dollars and if you don't feel satisfied with that become a fireman, smoke jumper, LEO. I am just as proud of you stating your position as anyone else. I know total losers in the military who should never have put on the uniform. It's not all glory in the service.

'Card
June 12, 2006, 09:16 AM
If you feel the need to go on some internet forum, bring something up completely out of the blue, and try to justify yourself, your decisions and your life to complete strangers who don't know you and don't know anything about you... then I'd say you've got some issues with inferiority, guilt, and maturity you need to work out before you even consider serving your nation.

Personally? I've got an 18 year old son who will be joining the National Guard this summer, and starting ROTC at college this fall. It should go without saying that I'm proud of the decisions he's making. It's not something he has to do for financial reasons, thankfully - he just wants to. Every male member of my family (uncles, cousins, you name it) back to my great-grandfather has served at least one term in the military, and I think my son sees it as continuing a proud tradition and performing an important service.

As part of the process, I've gotten to see several recruiters and watched what they do, and I've never seen one of them try to pressure anyone. Military people tend to be very direct and to-the-point, and civilians often find themselves intimidated by that, and subconsciously intimidated by the bearing and confidence that a military person possesses. Some people construe that as pressure, but it's almost entirely self-imposed, as far as I can tell.

Eleven Mike
June 12, 2006, 09:46 AM
Maser, you've gotten a lot of criticism for being a young no-nothing, which is to be expected. Just take it in stride. Experience is how we learn, and you've got much less of it than most of the military people you're confronting, so we will point this out. However, you do have the experience of being a teenaged parent, and had the character to face up to it. The military can take its toll on families, so your concerns make a lot of sense. Do what you need to do to make a career for yourself and your family, and don't feel guilty about not joining up. And don't get down our throats if we think you would benefit from military service; it just makes you look bad.

God Bless,

a humble veteran

airborne19822003
June 12, 2006, 10:09 AM
I would make a great soldier if I chose to be one because my parents have showed me great discipline over my lifetime so far. My uncle has taught me a few military hand to hand combat techniques.

Let me start off with saying this:
I have been with the Airborne Artillery for 5 years now and I am currently serving in Iraq. I am a Non-Commissioned Officer. That being said; here is my reply.

PROVE IT.
If you would be such a great soldier, excelling in hand to hand, PROVE IT.

I don't want you to prove it to me...I mean that you might find a desire to prove it to yourself.

I respect any decision you make, as I will not bear the weight of your decision.

_____________________
SGT D
Mosul, Iraq
"A good leader inspires other men and women with confidence. A great leader inspires them with confidence in themselves." ~Dr. Reed Markham

MarkDido
June 12, 2006, 10:21 AM
See, the problem is that I have a very carismatic attitude and I do care a lot about my image. If I feel that my image is being threatened either in real life or in cyber space I will defend it at all costs. Being my age and not technically a man yet and being called a coward will definatly hit below the belt. I feel that giving a good reason as to why I am or am not doing something and setting the record straight is a courteous thing to do.

Ummm, since you started the post, why do you feel obligated to defend a position when no one here has questioned your "image?"

Moondoggie
June 12, 2006, 10:28 AM
That's one of the beautiful things about America....

Serve others, serve yourself; the choice is yours.

You're 16, living with Mom & Dad, unmarried father; if you wanted to serve others you're still eligible to be a Boy Scout. Except for the "Morally Strong" part of the creed.

You claim to be fearless. Ask any of the vets hereabouts if they are fearless and 100% of them will respond in the negative. At the very least they have been/are afraid that they would let their comrades down in a critical situation. EVERYBODY is afraid of SOMETHING. How you deal with it makes all the difference.

Despite what you reportedly think your Uncle's opinion of you is, you have all of the makings of a fantastic keyboard commando. Others have endured long separations from THEIR loved ones to ensure that you can make the choice to stay home.

I'm not "coming down" on you. I'm providing honest input to the premise that you framed.

SSN Vet
June 12, 2006, 11:16 AM
Because I didn't want to live my life and when I was older and starting to show a little gray (like I am now) look back and think "Gee, because I was self-centered, I forewent the opportunity to serve my country, passing the buck to others and enjoying a free ride on the liberty and prosperity that they were securing for me".

Being an submarine officer for close to nine years was something very special. I've never come even remotely close to matching the sense of "doing something that really mattered" since then. Everything I've done since has been "just a job".

Now, I pursue "meaning" in my life through being a husband and father. And though these are very high callings, I miss the days when my work really mattered and the guys I worked with depended on me with their very lives, as I depended on them. Having "co-workers" is not the same as having "shipmates".

But I seized the day, when the day was there to be seized.

In case your not aware, the door for military service closes (as it does for police work) sooner than you might think.

So much for waxing sentimental

Clipper
June 12, 2006, 11:52 AM
...By abolishing the draft the way we did. I firmly believe that every male child in the country should at least be compelled to go through Basic Combat Training. It shows them they can get along without Mommy and Daddy to hold their hand every second and bail them out of every 'scarry' situation that comes along...Then ask 'em if they want to join... We're raising a nation of wusses. We don't allow our kids to scrape their knees & bump their heads (unless we can sue someone for our own stupidity because nothing is ever our own fault) like we did. I didn't particularly like my service, but I see how valuable the lessons I learned there were in my life, and am thankful for the time I spent in the service, which made me a better man.

greg700
June 12, 2006, 12:04 PM
Clipper,

There is a big difference between a draft, which forces SOME people to serve, and mandatory service for ALL young people. I will support mandatory service long before I support the draft. If you are going to require service of people, then require it of everybody for a year or two. Neither of which are good solutions for those who choose to serve. I take comfort from the knowledge that my buddies chose to join the military (and often gave up a lot to do so) and are with me because they want to be, not because they have to.

Clipper
June 12, 2006, 12:19 PM
...You're not paying attention. I said abolishing the draft THE WAY WE DID...And I DO NOT support mandatory service, I support mandatory BASIC for all males...

AndyC
June 12, 2006, 12:44 PM
Well, the nice thing about the US is that you have the choice and you don't need to heed anyone's approval or criticism - but if you're willing to listen to those viewpoints, you may see a few things you hadn't otherwise known about.

To show you a foreigner's perspective, my military experience was as a result of being drafted into the South African Defence Force - given the choice, I wouldn't have joined. However, I went in with a positive, "let's-make-the-best-of-it" attitude - and I came out at the end as a 2nd lieutenant (oh, the horror :D ) which has served me well in various situations including job-interviews ever since (he must have leadership qualities, blah, blah, blah).

The military experience led me to security + PSD work in interesting countries where I learned more skills from people of different countries and made some life-long friends. It's hard to explain to someone who's never been shot-at that it's easy to be convulsed with laughter after crawling out the window of a blown-up SUV and coming under heavy fire while dragging a civilian by the scruff of his neck to cover. It's funny as hell even now - what a pity you'll never experience the feeling of comradeship made in combat :neener:

I wish you a great future, but don't forget to thank the military men and women for making the sacrifices they do to ensure the freedoms you enjoy :)

Thin Black Line
June 12, 2006, 12:48 PM
The military IS a sacrifice. IT will DEMAND EVERYTHING from you to include you being a father to your son.

Bullseye.

I know one of the biggest morale busters one individual complained to me
about was hearing his 1SG say to him in Iraq "F*** your family" when he
expressed some concerns about something extremely serious going on back
home. Now I have no where near the time in service as some of the
people posting here, so due to my own inexperience I must completely
fail to see how such a retort was suppose to build up this soldier.

No one should join unless they are willing to sacrifice everything: family,
life, etc.

IMHO, I'd rather see us realign ourselves toward a swiss-style system of
secure borders and a certain level of training for everyone for domestic
defense rather than maintenance of a far-flung global empire.

Hkmp5sd
June 12, 2006, 12:55 PM
I joined for one reason: Education. Couldn't afford college and the Navy was more than happy to pay me to go to school for two years to learn how to operate a nuclear reactor.

Haymaker
June 12, 2006, 01:36 PM
Well, Most of em' anyway...;) = Thought provoking, gets people stirred up and sometimes even Thinking:p
As for the young gent himself, he's volunteerd for another form of hazerdous duty - FATHERHOOD! Good luck to you & yours & if the firstborn turns out, you may want to consider raising a litter:cool:
Personally, I was greatful for having served time in the service (Navy) before raising a family = needed a practical course in "Life on Life's Terms" before I could pass it on to the kids, :D

Werewolf
June 12, 2006, 01:36 PM
Why join the military - I can say why I joined.

When I joined the Army I had just completed my first year of college. GOD! How boring. There was no way (I was convinced - being young and stupid) that I was gonna sit behind a desk all my life. So I joined up with Tanks as a guarantee. Not boring. Got out - went back to college. GOD! How boring.

So I joined the NAVY. But this time I was at least gonna learn a trade. Joined with a guarantee as a Nuclear Reactor Operator ET. Not boring.

Now I'm a civilian, college graduate and - guess what - sitting behind a DAMNED desk all day. GOD! How boring. But it's a living and the military is still a young man's game and I am no longer young.

My point - for some, civilian life is just too damned boring, the day to day grind, the rat race, office politics, living in one place for years on end - what ever you want to call it. JUST TOO DAMNED BORING!

Bobo
June 12, 2006, 02:01 PM
... He's a real military type of person who served in desert storm with my dad and he knows that I don't want to join the military and yet doesn't say anything about it. All he says is that it's my discission and that if and/or when I decide to join then I would be made into one of the greatest soldiers ever. He does real wonders into boosting my ego and I love that.

Listen to your uncle. He has it right!

You must do what you think is right for you and your situation at this time. Don't be concerned about what others think. They must do what is right for them in their lives at this time, but that is not necessarily what is right for you in your life at this time.

You have certain priorities and responsibilities in your life at this time. Make your decisions based on that.

As your priorities and responsibilities change so to will your decisions. What is right for you today may change in the future.

Each person must do the same. Each life is unique and so are the priorities, responsibilities, and decisions of every individual.

If you do what you believe is the right thing for you at this time you will have peace in your heart. That is the most important thing.

Sgt Stevo
June 12, 2006, 02:23 PM
You da man OLD DOG. we may have crossed paths. Baharain, Rocks. Ever go to the International hotel>?

I of course have only heard of the place.;)

Mannlicher
June 12, 2006, 03:00 PM
If you have to ask maser, then you probably should not join.

wingnutx
June 12, 2006, 03:56 PM
wingnuts, Seabees,

I resemble that remark :D

jamz
June 12, 2006, 04:03 PM
Disclaimer: I've never served in the military either.

All I see from Maser's initial post is 2 points: 1, he talks to people with a slanted view regarding the military, and 2 he doesn't like pushy salesmen.

I can see the point about not wanting to join if you have a child, I feel the same way. Hell, I don't even like going on overnight trips away from my family, but than again I'm also 40 years old. If I had a kid at 16 it would definitely sway me to not join.

Regarding the first point, I've seen the exact opposite: almost everyone I talk to says it's a good choice for some people, but it's definitely not for everybody, same as people are saying here.

REcruiters in schools, well all I have to say is that no one is putting a gun to your head to join at this point, so feel free to listen to them with an open mind, and say yes or no as you desire.

sterling180
June 12, 2006, 04:53 PM
I would make a great soldier if I chose to be one because my parents have showed me great discipline over my lifetime so far. My uncle has taught me a few military hand to hand combat techniques.

The military is definately not for everyone,but it sure does turn unruly kids into respectable and responsible men and women-by channelling their aggression,into combat training,drills and parade-marching,etc.Conscription,was abolished in the UK in the early 60s and was considered by many,to be 'a good way to discipline the boys in Britain.There are those who can't fit in,because of the highly-disciplined regimes-that one must endure-on a daily basis.

Besides,if you are any good as a service-person-there are opportunities to study,for College qualifications-making promotion,that much easier into the senior Non-commissioned and Commissioned ranks.Of course other aspects such as leadership qualities are considered,before the board-before any decisions are made,about your promotion.

You also get to see the world,meet new people,get to participate in action-sports,sports sponserships,etc,etc.

You could get alot of job opportunities open to you-if and when you decide to leave,but it might or might not happen-depending on where you are.

My mother is pro-military and complained,that National Service was abolished in the UK.I knew,before sighning up,how to tidy-up my living space,how to press clothes-with a iron,how to polish my shoes properly,etc-so I was fairly used to it.

However the only people who will tell you,if you are any good-are the nco's and the officers-themselves.During basic training at boot camp,there are drill-instructors,who will put you down,by saying that you are rubbish,blah,blah,blah,so it is a matter of general opinion,if you are or not.The best way to see if you are any good is,if you pass the standard-requirement tests,that they set you-so then you can see foryourself,quite clearlyf-if the job is for you.

Its a case of,"The job picks you and you don't pick the job".

But I think that you will do it,because you seem determined to do so-so good luck to you,in the future-and hope that your basic-training works out positively,for you.

The best part is the passing out parade-when you are dressed up,looking your best and having your parents,friends and family-watching you march and drill.It is so powerful,that it can bring tears to your eyes.

Watch Bad Lads Army, on BBC America,and see if you could handle bootcamp.Bad Lads Army,was a reality tv show-like Big Brother-but it is set in the South West of the UK-known as "the West Country.This show takes young petty theives,slackers,junkies,winos and other loser drifters and attempts to change their attitudes-towards life,society and finally towards themselves.

All the staff are serving or ex-military men,who are had as nails,ruthless and won't be afraid to lash out at you,for the slightest thing.

Now you are neither of those types of characters in the above nor are you serving or about to serve in the British Armed-Forces-but the US Armys bootcamp is probably no different-in terms of how they would train an individual recruit.

mindwip
June 12, 2006, 06:10 PM
I would never serve in the military for one reason.

reason 1 part one

I was in the Boy Scout explorers-military, and the our leader a Col. in the real army, his son was set up to go to Westpoint. And have a great life in the military. So he went to the military went to Westpoint, got the highest award awarded to hin in a non-combat time, for saveing 2 other soldiers lifes. Got out of Westpoint and started his "job". As soon as it came to re-sign up. He got out as fast as he could. He hated it, he felt like if he ever wanted to get higher rank he would need to have the good looking girlfriend and throw those partys to woo all the generals.

Reason 1 part two

One of my friends in the Explorer wanted his whole life to go into the military, once he got in, it was way to political for him, even though he was a Ranger. And a bunch of other things that dont need to be mentioned here.


Based off those two its hard for me to look at the military as something i would like.

Pilgrim
June 12, 2006, 06:38 PM
Here's a big secret of life. Unless you own your own business, you will have to put up with politics on the job.

Pilgrim

DesertEagle613
June 12, 2006, 07:30 PM
What do you mean, "unless you own your own business"?

Politics is everywhere. Even if you're a sole proprietor, you still have to deal with vendors, landlords, government flacks, etc.

1wildbill
June 12, 2006, 07:58 PM
To each their own.

I was in the Army 9 years, volunteered when there was a draft. It was good for me at the time. I don't look down on people who don't volunteer.

IMO every physically fit citizen owes their country, and society two years of some kind of service.

Just my take. (I have my flameproof suit and breather on.)

akodo
June 12, 2006, 08:05 PM
I am against mandatory military service, except in cases of the direst need, when our natjon teeters on the brink of annihilation. People have suggested our military is stretched too thin, we need a draft now. I disagree. If we would pay our troops even a fraction of what they are really worth, and offer more college programs, etc etc, we would have more troops. Many people who have interest in the military or in public service don't want to live paycheck to paycheck and hence enter the public domain. I am against programs were everyone 18-21 or some other young age group would serve the country somehow, be it military service, public works programs, working at schools, etc. To me, that is Communism, where the government forcibly tells you what you will do and how much you will get paid for doing it.


I have also never served in the military.

That being said, I have the absolute utmost respect for those of you who have, and I do have the inkling of what sacrifices have been made in times past to allow or freedom to flourish. Truth is, if push came to shove, I'd go.

To the original poster. You say nothing matters more than spending time with your son. Would that include spending all your time with your son in a consentration camp, or maybe as someone's property, or under the heel of a religous zealot who commands both you and your son to follow his faith?

When you grow older, your views will change. You will not see your time with your son as 'fun time for both of us', instead you will do whatever it takes to make the best life for your loved child. This may mean spending LESS time with him, because you desire to keep him safe, healthy, and keep all his options open. This means money, unfortunately. I've known many a parent who could have spent nights at home with the kids, but who went to college during the evenings, or did double shifts, so the kids could afford braces or tutors.

As far as your ego, and not liking to be called a coward. Well, maybe the man was hitting close to the mark. If bar none your only concern in life is living, he may be correct. To me, courage, the opposite of cowardace, is doing what we need to, even if we don't like it. For some, they feel they need to serve their country, and put their life on the line, even if they would rather be home with loved ones.

On a final note, your statment of your ego being important, and your image to be defended at all costs. Are you really saying you would kill someone simply because they insulted you? It is my belief that anyone whose ego is so big they put their smallest discomfort towering above the value of other human beings is either evil, or mentally ill. Maybe you should seek counciling.

rono
June 12, 2006, 09:34 PM
My son left today for Army BCT. He decided this is what HE wants to do. College would have been a free ride since I work at one. That wasn't for him. Whatever he decided I was going to stand by him 100% and am very proud. If I had to do it over again, I would have done the same thing then went to college afterwards.

Ron

mindwip
June 12, 2006, 10:17 PM
Here's a big secret of life. Unless you own your own business, you will have to put up with politics on the job.

Pilgrim


Hehe i guess i am lucky i do own my own business, and i only have to deal with my dad.:D

Olys45
June 13, 2006, 12:23 AM
'Card
As part of the process, I've gotten to see several recruiters and watched what they do, and I've never seen one of them try to pressure anyone. Military people tend to be very direct and to-the-point, and civilians often find themselves intimidated by that, and subconsciously intimidated by the bearing and confidence that a military person possesses. Some people construe that as pressure, but it's almost entirely self-imposed, as far as I can tell.

That's funny, I'm glad somebody else had a chance to see it!

I had a kid CALL IN to ME to set up an appointment. Qual'ed him, set and conducted the appointment. He is ALL FIRED UP and wants to join. I send him back to his college dorm with a list of things and the promise to be back at my office on a Sunday afternoon, so I could get him finalized to process and join the Air Force the next day.
Well Mommy and Daddy didn't like the fact that he was leaving college (after his first year) to join the Air Force. Daddy called and told me that his 18-19 year old kid WAS NOT GOING TO MEPS (Military Entrance Processing Station). I called the kid directly, he tells me not to worry, Mom and Dad just don't understand and he will be there.
Daddy calls back and tells me to leave his son alone. I basically tell dad that as an ADULT he CAME TO ME and wants to join. Dad tells me that I am twisting his arm.
All I state is that I just need to know wether the kid is going to be at my office at X time on Sunday to finish his paperwork. Dad tells me NO, but the kid tells me YES. Dad continued to tell me that I was twisting his kids arm because I was DEMANDING that he be in my office.

Heck all I wanted to know is wether I was going to miss another Sunday afternoon with my family or not... Dad wouldn't listen to me to pass that along.

Needless to say with such an overbearing father and his mommy having that long of apron strings the kid never came back to my office!

taylorce1
June 13, 2006, 12:33 AM
Why not join the military? I've been in now for 15 years and I have nothing bad to say about it. Yes you do have to put up with a lot of BS but that is easy, most people deal with it every day. The military is a good stepping stone for people who want to learn a skill or go to college some day. I joined the Army in 1992 and chose Airborne Infantry, it wasn't my first choice but I wanted the college money $40,000.00. I no longer serve on active duty but I'm still in the reserves and I plan on collecting my retirement. Both active duty and reserves will pay up to 75% of your college tuition if you choose not to use the GI Bill/Army College Fund while you are in the military. Most Commanders will give you the time to go to college on a part-time basis if you approach them about it.

The only thing I will tell you about choosing the College money is that it limits the choices you get for jobs when you enlist. When I joined you either got to learn a technical skill or you got the college money. I think know you can get both because enlistment is down but only in occupations with critical shortages. The Army will give cash bonuses if you want to stay in and re-enlist, my MOS gives up to a $40K bonus and Special Forces will give over $150K bonus. Active duty pay is pretty good these days as well, If you are entitled to BAH and BAS as an E5/Sargent you can earn over $30K a year. It takes the average soldier 4 years to get E5 in the Army and some as little as 18 months not bad pay by age 22 if you joined at 18.

The Military is defiantly not for everyone and like most things it is what you make of it for yourself. I would probably have never seen places like Italy, Germany, Austria, England, France, and Africa if I hadn't joined. I've never regretted joining the Army and it has been good to me.

Maser
June 13, 2006, 12:36 AM
I have been proven right once again by all the military type of people. Lets get some more of the non-military people like myself to voice their oppinons. So far my argument is winning. :D

Pilgrim
June 13, 2006, 01:17 AM
What do you mean, "unless you own your own business"?
You are self-employed. You produce, you eat. You don't, you starve. You pay all of your social security 'contributions'. You fund your own medical and dental insurance.

If you own a big enough business to have employees, you do all the payroll things a business owner has to perform along with complying with the state and federal laws and regulations an employer has to put up with.

Of course, if you get big enough, you will have employees 'politicking' your behind off to get promotions, advantages, and extra privileges.

Pilgrim

roo_ster
June 13, 2006, 01:54 AM
I wanted to go kill communists. I still think that is a worthwhile activity.
You keep writing such purty words, I'll start to tear up & muss up my clean hankie.

Maser:
I hope you find the strength to bear up under any criticism from those who question your decision not to enlist...and keep to that commitment.

I was always of the mind that there should have been an open door policy in basic/ait/etc. If you wanna leave, don't let the door hit you in the azz. I'd rather have 10 motivated men beside me than 30 limp noodles masquerading as men.

spaceCADETzoom
June 13, 2006, 01:57 AM
MASER:I have been proven right once again by all the military type of people. Lets get some more of the non-military people like myself to voice their oppinons. So far my argument is winning.
Have you read anything in this thread? I didn't count ONE post that called you a coward for not wanting to join the military.

Your post, on the other hand, certainly acknowledges the fact you only started this thread to get a specific response. You're not interested in anything but "proving" something. Troll.

ETA: and people wonder why kids aren't taken seriously. I wish more forums had age requirements.
[oh, btw, shouldn't this thread be in legal/political? maser has something personal, or indirectly political to say...there's no gun discussion here...in fact, to maser, there's no "discussion" at all--in one ear, out the other :)]

Old Dog
June 13, 2006, 02:16 AM
MASER:I have been proven right once again by all the military type of people. Lets get some more of the non-military people like myself to voice their oppinons. So far my argument is winning. And posts such as this make me regret that I bothered responding to his original post. I thought he wanted to know why people joined the armed forces. It appears though, that he simply wanted to generate responses to validate an immature point of view he's come to based on his limited life experience and some twisted opinion he's got of those who've actually served ...

I'm with spacecadetzoom: Troll.
and people wonder why kids aren't taken seriously. I wish more forums had age requirements.I'm gettin' there, too ...

White Horseradish
June 13, 2006, 03:25 AM
There are a couple of things I fell need to be said here. First of all, in my experience only idiots are completely fearless. It's not the absense of fear that is important, it's the ability to handle the fear and use it. I am not calling anyone an idiot here, I just think some folks' fearlessness may be a bit overestimated due to lack of experience.

As far as pressure to join, I've never seen any arm-twisting, especially from vets. Granted, there was a recruiter that called me for two years, but that sounded more like a sales pitch with some pleading thrown in. Unfortunately (fortunately?) I had a job at the time that paid more than the government did and I did not care about college. I also thought that telling me that Navy needs people like me was reflecting badly on the state of the Navy.

I would also like to say that military training/experience is by no means a guaranteed people improver. Case in point, my ex-boss's kid. He went to the Army, found that he can't have things his way and that he is not a privileged rich kid but rather a regular joe that gets yelled at by the DI. In short, he found out that if you go to the Army, you wind up in the Army. Now he just whines more than he ever did before. Granted, he's just through Basic, but I don't think he'll get that much better. Sow's ear and purse.

I believe that if someone doesn't want to be in a profession, he shouldn't go into it. Leave soldiering to people that want to do it, everyone will be better off. Disliking what you do leads to doing a half-assed job, and the armed services could do without that. It's unfair both to your equals who will have to pick up the slack and to your superiors who will have to put extra effort into getting your behind in gear.

I don't feel I am any less of a man for not having served. And if anyone does feel that way about me, they can take that opinion, fold it till it has all sharp corners and I'm sure you know the rest.

atomchaser
June 13, 2006, 06:19 AM
The military is definitely not for everyone. I've been on active duty for 20 years in the AF, and have spent a consider amount of time booting folks out for failure to adapt. I have no problem at all with folks who don't want to join. It's purely a personal decision and I don't think any less of them if they are decent, contributing members of society. That said, I've throughly enjoyed my career. I've been all over the world and gotten involved in a tremendous variety of things that I never would have done as a civilian. I've also gotten 6 years of school paid for and will retire next year with a 40K/yr pension and the opportunity to pursue a 2nd career in the civilian sector. Yes, it's been hard on the family at times. If your relationships are strong, they'll survive.

Eleven Mike
June 13, 2006, 09:03 AM
I have been proven right once again by all the military type of people. Lets get some more of the non-military people like myself to voice their oppinons. So far my argument is winning. :D

That's funny, considering all the military type of people that are opining against having a draft or mandatory training. Furthermore, please do not smile :D about the fact that you are showing no respect for those who protect your country, or have done so in the past.

airborne_arty_2003
June 13, 2006, 10:45 AM
I've been sitting here in Iraq wondering if I should even take the time to respond to the thread, considering it doesn't seem Maser is really listening. I am not writing this for him, but for others reading who may be struggling with the same question. I concur the decision to join the military is a difficult one; neither is the military for everyone. I joined when I was thirty years old. I was not forced into joining the military because I couldn't make it in the real world. I actually took a pay cut in order to join. I have a wife and two wonderful kids I adore. How can I be so far away from them for so long? I finally realized I was expecting others to go and do a job I myself was not willing to do. The defense of my family, my freedom, my religion, and my rights was being left to people I didn't know. I was going about my life not thinking about the men and women serving so I could enjoy these freedoms. I was tired of listening to the beatings the military was taking in the media, and thought it was about time I took some responsibility and showed my appreciation for the military by joining in the fight. So a message to Maser, and for all those who think being a parent excludes them from being able to stand up for the defense of our freedoms. Not all soldiers are single; their are many fathers and brothers standing up defending what we believe in simply because it is the right thing to do. Do I miss my family? Does my family miss me? Yes on both counts. My wife supports me in my decision to stay in the military because she knows that I am a part of something truly important. My children, though sad they don't get to see their Dada as much as they would like, are proud of me. I don't want to get too political listing the reasons I need to be here where I am right now, but I want you to know I know this is where I need to be. This is what I need to do, and we are here for the right reasons. If you decide to join the military, great. If it isn't for you, don't worry; We have your back. We need great men and women in the private sector as well. Wars are not won by soldiers alone. I once thought as Maser did though, what can the army do with me? I have a wife and two kids, they wouldn't want somebody like me. They want the kids out of high school. That wasn't what I found at all. No matter what you decide you are the only one who will live with your decision.

MICHAEL T
June 13, 2006, 01:02 PM
"I'm sorry to all you military guys defending this great country, but me joining is just too great of a gamble in my life. Even if there was a 100% garentee that I wouldn't get killed in combat I still wouldn't join now".

If guys in WWII had that attitude we be speaking German.
Your selfish and hide behind your son. Because of people like you. Your son my not have a America to grow up in.
My son was in NY city with me 10 days after 911. I didn't know he went to the site of the Towers while I was else where. We returned home and a short time later he enlisted in 101stAirborne as a gunt. He has served with honor in Iraq and about to return to that part of the world again. Why because he loves his country and our way of life and was/is willing to put aside his wants and his family. To due his duty as a American Citizen. America has given you freedom the rest of the world doesn't know . Yet you are not willing to repay that or help assure you SON has these same freedoms given to him. Other may not say it but I will. You are not fit to live in this Country. Yes I served 13 yrs and I am a vet.
The reason you can post your selfish cry baby post today . Is because people have stepped up when needed and served. I hope your son grows up to be a better man than you.

Jorg Nysgerrig
June 13, 2006, 02:07 PM
Maser, the only thing I can suggest is that you print this thread off, seal it in an envelope and don't open it until you are 32. The reread it, look at your 16 year old son, and enjoy that moment of clarity.

For everyone else, I think enough has been said. It's clear Maser is only here to try to "best" those who have served. Sadly, he doesn't seem to realize that very few people care if he personally serves or not. Then again, who didn't think the world revolved around them when they were 16.

BrennanKG
June 13, 2006, 03:43 PM
+1

Nicely stated Jorg.

I have only two things to add to this thread.

1) I'd like to wholeheartedly thank those who serve and have served in our armed forces. My family and I owe you much.

2) Does anyone know off the top of their heads the upper age limit for Reserve service? After we move to TX later this year I was thinking the Army Reserve might be a good compliment to my "stay-at-home dad" duties.


Thanks,
B.

MisterPX
June 13, 2006, 03:48 PM
I was gonna post something better, but after seeing that Maser is just looking for excuses, I won't. I will say that it all comes down to "you do your thing, I'll do mine".

BTW, Brennan, I beleive they raised the limit to 43, not factoring in prior service.

BrennanKG
June 13, 2006, 03:53 PM
Thanks MisterPX.

I just checked the ArmyReserve site and saw 40.
Either way I'm under the limit. :)

Stay safe out there and again, thank you.



B.

Q-Lock
June 13, 2006, 04:45 PM
"I'm sorry to all you military guys defending this great country, but me joining is just too great of a gamble in my life. Even if there was a 100% garentee that I wouldn't get killed in combat I still wouldn't join now." - Maser

I understand that you have your priorities, and that's life. No one can or will change your mind about that, and there isn't anything wrong with that. All I can say is that I'm extremely happy our veterans and current soldiers didn't/don't have that same idea that they are more important than everyone else. To say you have a responsibility to your son is one thing, but to say your life is too important for that kind of "gamble" is ludicrous and insulting to those who have given their lives and left their families for your freedom.

I'm sure no apology is necessary, there is no point to it. If you don't want to join the armed forces, then don't, you have every right to that choice...but don't try to make excuses. Reasons are what you have, but excuses are what you are making out of them.

"There, I hope this clears everything up and lets you all know that i'm not a coward or don't care about my country or the other fine men and women who have fought and/or died for this great country." - Maser

Clears what up? No one told you to post this. No one said you were a coward. Why in the world did you feel the need to "make your reasons known"? Are you trying to feel better about yourself in hopes that everyone will agree with you - that your life is too valuable for that kind of gamble...I'm sorry but that won't happen.

I respect your decision, not that it matters what I think, to refrain from joining the military; but your manner of reasoning is insulting to some...I hope you realize that after reading this thread.

Perhaps when you reach adulthood, you will have a different outlook on things. We can only hope.

Regards.

Mannlicher
June 13, 2006, 06:15 PM
I stlll think that contentious threads that are comprised solely on personal opinion should die an early death. There is zero chance that maser will have his juvenile opinion changed, and there is zero chance that anti military types in general will ever understand that the only reason that they can 'bleat on', is that some other guy had the cajones to do the right thing. Society will always have a high percentage of drones. That they are allowed to exist and voice their selfish and silly points of view in public is one of the cornerstones of a free society. Already, I am sorry I replied to this thread. :fire:

warriorsociologist
June 13, 2006, 07:45 PM
I guess I stick by my original post....Maser, by your conduct you did let this one turn out the same as the garbage you posted over at Sniper's Hide. I once thought you seemed to be VERY ahead of the curve for your age, the more you post here the more you sound like another kid who needs to be doing homework instead of playing internet tough guy. You really should print & keep this thread for a later day.

Autolycus
June 13, 2006, 07:51 PM
Maser is a troll...

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=523351&highlight=Maser

and another...

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=521946&highlight=Maser

and just do a search on Glocktalk.com

And Shotgun world.

Maser is 16, a father, works at Rite-Aid, and illegally owns firearms. Or at least claims to. He is very ignorant and does not plan to do anything other than live on welfare. He is almost as bad as Gunkid when it comes to trolling the gun forums. He insisted on Glocktalk that he would be alright working for minimum wage at Rite-Aid with the 15% off discount he gets. That would help him buy diapers, food, and other baby necessitites.

I would suggest doing a search over at www.Glocktalk.com and using Maser as your search word.

Autolycus
June 13, 2006, 08:03 PM
http://www.myspace.com/jasonthecholo

CPLofMARINES
June 14, 2006, 12:10 AM
Maser, it is because of people like myself that you are able to voice your opinions so freely without prejudice. Your welcome.


Semper Fi!

Eleven Mike
June 14, 2006, 01:34 AM
Tecumseh, you are evil. I had never before visited GlockTalk and was unprepared for the horror that awaited. I have learned two things:

1) THR should never allow avatars.

2) There are some people that post on The High Road, yet are incapable of posting on the high road. This is sad.

Maser
June 14, 2006, 01:41 AM
Glocktalk is not an imformative site at all. It's nothing more than just a bunch of middle aged adults who act like children. It's nothing more than just a thing where one person says they got a certain model glock and another says they got a better glock and then the arguements accelerate from there.

Hey Tecumseh, how come you call me a troll? Why don't you explain to everyone here how you are a 25 year old collage boy who was posing as a high schooler just to join my site. Aslo why don't you tell everyone about the immature posts you made such as "who is in a street gang" or "which handgun is the best for a drive by". I advise you to stay at glocktalk because they are on the same educational level as you. This site is made for honest law abiding citizens and we don't need trolls like you here.

BullfrogKen
June 14, 2006, 01:52 AM
Eleven Mike, I agree. Glock Talk is abysmal. I just visited, and I have no desire to spend another minute of my time in such a community.


Maser, I believe I was one of the first few to respond to your post as a former Marine who was against any type of compulsory service.

I think you're only reading what you want to read out of this little fight you started. I regret I responded to it.

In fact, after learning a little more about you, I'm not sure this post is even worth the bandwidth. I doubt it will make much difference.

P99waltherP99
June 14, 2006, 02:17 AM
I joined the Army when I was 18. Went Infantry. After basic training I went to Airborne school. I became a paratrooper. An Airborne Infantryman. Now to me, thats important. No one can ever take my title airborne infantryman or paratrooper away from me. Having said that, I will not go into detail but I will admit my dissatisfaction with the Army. However, you need to look at the things you wrote. I disagree with a lot of things our military has done to thousands of soldiers and what our politicians did to our country. I hate to think about what the Army did to me to protect people in athority. I share your feelings about not wanting to have anything to do with our military ever again, but you harbor those feelings for the wrong reasons. You are a selfish, little boy that needs to grow up. I will not call you a coward because you are not yet a man. Im not telling you or anyone to join the military, what i am telling you though is that you need to respect me, and everyone else who has served in your place. Now and in the past. For every breath you take i want you to remember that it was not you that earned it, for every english word you speak i want you to remember that it was not you that kept it english. You should be ashamed of yourself for not wanting to join the military because of selfish reasons. you mention somthing to the affect of it being your right not to serve, well guess what, who do you think gave you that right. I dont want your apology because you arnt even worth the effort it takes to type one. I only hope that you someday turn into a man and stop trying to justify not doings things because of selfishness and fear. So if you want to say you dont wanna serve, then give us a better reasons. You owe us that much.

Autolycus
June 14, 2006, 05:02 AM
Maser, I freely admit that a bunch of Glocktalkers went to your site and trolled. Only because you come on a site and ruin it. You have also advocated illegal activity on your sites. We just returned the favor. Did you also inform them about the fact you are not old enough to buy guns and you are currenlty in possession of guns that are illegal for you to own in the state of California. You also forgot to admit your gang ties and the fact that people are actively "out to get you".

But as it is I have nothing more to say than your a troll. You come on a site and you post questions like the one you started this thread with. You also dont take time to inform them that instead of you working to feed your kid you choose to post on internet sites, run a forum, and shoot guns illegally. You also didnt tell them about your "Teenage Baby Fetish".

Here is some information on that...

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=523351&perpage=40&highlight=Maser&pagenumber=5

And I will no longer post in this thread unless I really feel the need. But I will post exactly my reply to you that I did on Glocktalk when you brought this up...

Originally Posted By Tecumseh
I think the fact that you have a kid and are not even finished with high school says a lot about your character. The signs of drug use (pacifiers), the gangsta images (thug with mask holding the shotgun, gang signs in your picture) are the reasons people are so hostile towards you. The simple facts are that we as a society do not feel that we should be forced to support you and your new family due to your own irresponsibility. The facts are that you are probably not able to responsibly be a father to that child. You work at Rite-Aid and probably do not make enough to pay your own rent, the cost of food for your child, the mother, and for a few other bills. This is a large cause of the resentment we feel towards you. It seems that you have a lot of time to spend on Glocktalk and the internet. You said in one of your posts that you usually play Play Station 2 on Saturday nights. Some of your post times are at 2 or 3 in the AM. And your a high schooler! This indicates that you have a lot of idle time. Perhaps you could work at those times rather than play Playstation 2? Or stay off of the internet and go look for extra work? I checked out the website on your link and glanced through a few of your posts. Your mom is getting a tax refund and you want her to buy you something gun related?:upeyes: She should buy you something to help take care of your kid. And do not say that bootcamp is insignificant. I was DQed from military service and I regret it everyday. My best friend turned his life around with his service in the Army. It also helped pay for his education and gave him a means to support himself and a family one day. Perhaps it might do the same for you and your family? Its still money from the government except in the military you are earning it.


So here is what you should do:

1) Ask mom to help you with your kids expenses.
2) Sell your firearms to help pay for the baby.
3) Get off of Glocktalk and your forum, sell the PS2, and start looking for more work to help pay for your kid.
4) Enlist in the military. Air Force boot camp is not that long and you will still be able to help your family. And they will help you get an education so that you can raise that child right.

Your mom and brother can take care of the repairs on the house while you join the military and do the right thing.


THE TRUTH IS THAT YOU HAVE TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY. DO NOT COP OUT AND SAY YOU HAVE OTHER STUFF TO DO.

Maser
June 14, 2006, 05:12 AM
What type of medications are you on Tecumseh? How am I a troll and how do I advocate illegal behaviour? You're the one posting a bunch of illegal crap on my site. There were only two members from glocktalk trolling my site. You and allibaba. Both of you have been kicked out of my site and now you are crying about it.

My advice to you is to finish collage and stop bugging high schoolers such as myself because like the good old internet saying goes. "Arguing on the net is like competing in the special olymplics. Even if you win you are still retarted."

Now lets get back on topic.

scoutsout
June 14, 2006, 05:34 AM
I dont want everone strait out of high school join the military. I can't speak for the other branches but in many ways the Army standards are too low as they are and if it were mandatory I know they would go down even further. Many of the GIs in my unit had to get several wavers because they had a bad record and a few had to join up or go to jail. Many did had to get a waver because their ASVAB scores were too low. Personaly I think that if we downsized and raised the standards that we would be more effective. That said there are many qualiy GIs in too. I joined because I ran out of college money and needed to better support my wife in her college. And also I thought it would be good to serve when the country needs people.


7th First, Out Front, Gary Owen.

Autolycus
June 14, 2006, 05:35 AM
Maser: One more thing. I think before you talk about enrolling in college you learn to spell it. It is not COLLAGE but COLLEGE.

Maser
June 14, 2006, 05:38 AM
Go away troll (Tecumseh) :banghead:

Q-Lock
June 14, 2006, 09:38 AM
Can we PLEASE close this thread...this is pointless. We don't need crap like this on THR; please go elsewhere for the personal attacks!


You should be ashamed of yourselves

Sgt Stevo
June 14, 2006, 11:45 AM
This kid is sixteen? LOL/puke. why did we bother with this. Air Arty, good for you bud. 11b like me? Or a Are you are you a redleg type?

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