More on the KT Ordinance raid


PDA






neoncowboy
June 11, 2006, 10:34 PM
6-11-6 posted by richard himself on this forum board;
http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?s=
74f447c6ed76f68c6348cc0ace459c5f;act=ST;f=6;t=14781;st=
100;r=1;&#entry118110


Copy and past the below and send it to all on your e-mail lists:

Due to the recent raid on KT Ordnance, our Whiskey Day Memorial Machine Gun Shoot, 80% Gun Build, and Ice Cream Social, has been changed to: The Whiskey Day Memorial Machine Gun Shoot and Ice Cream Social, NO gun building of any kind will take place.

I was advised by the JBT’s (also known as F Troop) NOT to have the shoot. I say, darn the torpedoes, full speed ahead. We are going to have our shoot, as our God given, Constitutionally protected right, and I will not be bullied. They may put me in jail, but they will never conquer us.

If we as Americans cannot put on a better showing than those illegal aliens did, then we deserve to die. I am asking all Americans to come to Dillon on July 15 to show support for our cause. And what is that cause? It is literally your life! I have, with firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence, pledged to each of you my life, my fortune, and my sacred Honor. They have taken my fortune; my freedom or my life may be next.

Will you pledge just one week of fun and shooting to me, and the cause? Look at how successful the biker weeks are. Can we as gun owners not do better? Or are we as gun owners too weak and afraid? You may be next if we do not stop this NOW. No more Ruby Ridges, Wacos, Dillons, and the list goes on, and it will continue to go on, if it is not stopped NOW.

Send the JBT’s back to Washington DC, and tell them there that America’s daughters and her sons are theirs no more. Tell them America is free.

I hope to see before me an army of my countrymen here in defiance of tyranny. You have come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What will you do without freedom? Will you fight?

Fight against JBT’s you say? “No, we will run, and we will live”.

Ay, fight and you may die, run and you'll live. At least for a while. And dying in your beds many years from now a slave, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance to come back here and tell the JBT’s that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom.

I don't want to be a martyr. I want to live. I want my home, and children, and peace. I've asked God for these things. It's all for nothing if we don't have freedom.

Let this end with me. Let me be the last victim of this rogue agency. Are you mad as hail yet? Go to your windows and open them wide and yell to everyone, “I’m mad as hail, and I’m not going to take this anymore”.

Now go, make your plans to come to Dillon, Montana on July 15th. Do not let this die, or you will die as cowards. We all end up dead; it's just a question of how and why. Every man dies, not every man really lives.

Thanks to Aaron Zelman of the JPFO.org and GOA.com, Please contribute to the GOA’s legal fund and to JPFO’s Boot the BATF.


Attached link: http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=6;

If you enjoyed reading about "More on the KT Ordinance raid" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Diomed
June 11, 2006, 11:39 PM
Are you mad as hail yet?

I don't know, how mad does hail get?

Is there more substantive info in those links? I see a lot of ranting and very little meaningful content.

Shield529
June 12, 2006, 12:20 AM
Everything about this raid is ranting. People gripe about ATF violence. In this case they used a ruse to get the suspect out before they entered. No evil swat team, no forced entry, and no one hurt. This guy is alleged to have been violating federal firearms laws and a warrant was served for that reason. Yet the tin foil hat crowd still is on a rant about the JBT. It never ends.
.Gov always bad, Nutty guy ranting about .Gov always good.

Jim March
June 12, 2006, 12:47 AM
Anything he says substancial to the case can and will be used against him.

Or twisted around until it can be.

He's doing the right thing in terms of what he says, for now.

Third_Rail
June 12, 2006, 01:23 AM
Personally, I'm glad they used a ruse to get him out before raiding - he would've had to be killed otherwise, I suppose.

Overall, since they'll do it anyway, I'm glad they did it in this way. Much better than Waco, etc. IMHO.

Jim March
June 12, 2006, 01:56 AM
He may owe his life to the local sheriff. It's not far-fetched to guess that when BATFE came to the sheriff to tell him about the raid, he pitched a fit unless this plan was carried out his way, non-violently.

only1asterisk
June 12, 2006, 06:17 AM
I don't know Richard Celata, but I have to wonder if his political views and the nature of his product made him a target or if they were just viewed as making him easier to convict than somebody like Larry Crow.

David

Jim March
June 12, 2006, 12:59 PM
He was helping people build unpapered AR pattern guns.

Perfectly legal, but the BATFE doesn't like it and they're well known not to care much about little details like "legality".

only1asterisk
June 12, 2006, 01:29 PM
...they're well known not to care much about little details like "legality".

Guess when you can make up the law as you go along, legality doesn't mean much.

David

Vex
June 12, 2006, 01:36 PM
The usage of the term JBT and the "I wish I was William Wallace in Braveheart" style of speaking really turned me off. If the guy was articulate about anything other than "run, and die," it would have come off as more intelligent, and not so much like Hillbilly Bob.

neoncowboy
June 12, 2006, 01:43 PM
Why Vex? Only the intelligent and articulate are entitled to equal protection under the law?

The guy has been running a business selling pieces of metal to home hobbyist gunsmiths for YEARS. He's run his business within the confines of the law.

Now all of a sudden, the federal gun police (who aren't even *remotely* authorized by the US Constitution) have seized his property, intimidated his family, threatened him, taken away his livelihood and generally ruined his life.

His disdain for the government has nothing to do with it, no matter how vocal.
His wanting payment in gold instead of federal reserve notes has nothing to do with it.

What, it's only wrong if it happens to someone you like and agree with?

This guy is being VICTIMIZED by an federal law enforcement agency OUT OF CONTROL! It's their SOP: make up bogus infractions of obscure laws based on questionable or manufactured evidence and use the resulting legal nightmare to ruin the life of the subject.

It's wrong.

It might as well be you or me, the guy is an American trying to make a living and take care of his family.

nvshooter
June 12, 2006, 01:48 PM
Who, or what, is KT Ordinance? Isn't that "ordnance?"

Vex
June 12, 2006, 02:57 PM
Why Vex? Only the intelligent and articulate are entitled to equal protection under the law?

Hold on there, chief. I never said anything about equal protection or the law or anything.... pinpoint my statement if you feel I was referring to anything legal! I said it turned ME off.... I'm allowed to make my own opinion in this country, aren't I? I learned nothing constructive from this guy's rant. It portrays gun owners as radicals, as extremists, and as anarchists fighting against the "Jack Booted Thugs" of the government. It's silly.

Since you didn't read my post thouroughly the first time, allow me to reproduce it in it's entirety:

The usage of the term JBT and the "I wish I was William Wallace in Braveheart" style of speaking really turned me off. If the guy was articulate about anything other than "run, and die," it would have come off as more intelligent, and not so much like Hillbilly Bob.

only1asterisk
June 12, 2006, 03:11 PM
Vex,

I think your reaction (understandably common) is one that the ATF is counting on. Their message will be:

Richard Celata, anarchist, survivalist, white separatist and puppy hater, aided thousands of neo-nazi, militia and death cult members to produce untraceable super ultra-deadly murder assault weapons of the type used by convicted beltway sniper John Muhammad. He also might not have paid any excise taxes on lumps of metal that were clearly intended to be made into untraceable super ultra-deadly murder assault weapons of the type used by convicted beltway sniper John Muhammad to cowardly murder people.

Regardless of what I think about someone, this is wrong. Richard Celata was a pain for the ATF. Somebody doing something legal that they didn't care for and he walked close to the line. His political views make him an especially easy mark. While I don’t know him, I think he deserves better. The .gov is going to have to work very hard to show me this isn’t vindictive persecution.


David

Vex
June 12, 2006, 03:15 PM
Well, you have to admit that he's not helping his cause by releasing this obviously extremist letter. It's like the defense attorneys always say, and with very good reason: "My client has no comment."

Otherguy Overby
June 12, 2006, 03:21 PM
The BATFE actually managed to pull this off without stomping any puppies?

Or, are they just covering things up better now?

neoncowboy
June 12, 2006, 03:42 PM
I never said anything about equal protection or the law or anything.... pinpoint my statement if you feel I was referring to anything legal! I said it turned ME off

OK...so, you're only interested in abuses of the rights of Americans who think like you do, speak like you do and share the same estimation of the government as you do?

You seem to be implying a lack of interest in the case based on a conclusion you've come to about the guy's beliefs or ideology.

It almost sounds like you think it's only worth getting upset about if the government abuses people who love the government.

He called the ATF 'JBT'. Is it your contention that the ATF is not an agency of thugs?

Are you an ATF apologist?

Vex
June 12, 2006, 04:58 PM
Think about how much this letter could be used by the antis to prove all gun owners are eextemist anarchists. It should worry you.

OK...so, you're only interested in abuses of the rights of Americans who think like you do, speak like you do and share the same estimation of the government as you do?

No, wrong again. My point is that there could be a better way to state his discontent for the actions of the government other than a faux call to arms that reaks with anarchist intent. Replacing "JBT" with "ATF" would be one way. Leaving out the "tell the JBT’s that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom," and similar Braveheart inspired quotes would remove the sense that gun owners are anarchist radicals, as well. Do you want to be painted as a war mongering extremist? I don't, for sure. It only dismisses the logical talking points and allows the anti's ammunition to use against us.

If we articulate our goals and refuse the antis the ammo to call us extremists, we'll be better off when the day comes that the Supreme Court will finally rule the 2nd Amendment as it was originally written.

It almost sounds like you think it's only worth getting upset about if the government abuses people who love the government.


I haven't yet defended the ATF for taking this guy's business. I'm not familiar enough with the case to take a side. My observation is a neutral one: Clean up our act, or we will destroy the RKBA cause from within.

He called the ATF 'JBT'. Is it your contention that the ATF is not an agency of thugs?

Once again, I never sided with the ATF. I merely observed that the letter speaks only to those who readily conform to the extreme libertarian. Letters such as these serve no constructive purpose to the RKBA.

I've re-written the letter and made it semi-fit for publishing and distribution among the anti's....

Due to the recent raid on KT Ordnance, our Whiskey Day Memorial Machine Gun Shoot, 80% Gun Build, and Ice Cream Social, has been changed to: The Whiskey Day Memorial Machine Gun Shoot and Ice Cream Social, NO gun building of any kind will take place.

I was advised by the ATF not to have the shoot, however I if I abide by their suggestions, I feel we will have lost one more thing that they wish to take from us: the freedom to exercise our right to keep and bear arms.

If we as Americans cannot put on a better showing than our opponents to the RKBA did, then our voice will not be heard by the liberal media. I am asking all Americans to come to Dillon on July 15 to show support for our cause. And what is that cause? The rights given to us by the 2nd Amendment under the Bill of Rights to keep and bear arms.

Will you pledge just one week of fun and shooting to me, and the cause? Look at how successful the biker weeks are. Can we as gun owners not do better?

Send the ATF back to Washington DC with the message that we know our rights, and we will not be treated as criminals.

I don't want to be oppressed. I want to live. I want my home, and children, and peace.

Please make your plans to come to Dillon, Montana on July 15th. Do not let this event go unnoticed.

Thanks to Aaron Zelman of the JPFO.org and GOA.com, Please contribute to the GOA’s legal fund and to JPFO’s Boot the BATF.


Now doesn't that sound alot less like a call to arms or a beginning of the revolution? Doesn't it sound like a piece that could get printed in newspapers across the country as a notice? In the original, there's too much talk about death, dying, killing, etc... and it will only cause to arm the anti's against us by twisting our words and thoughts to paint us as insurgents.

kel
June 12, 2006, 05:05 PM
People always like to bring up the writings of the founding fathers written around the time of the revolution. I have been reading letters and the federalist papers lately, and his writing seems very similar in terms of "Give me freedom or give me death" and what not.

I agree with you he is not getting us anywhere (Count me as a John Adam's type), but he does have quite a bit of cultural precedent ;-)

Makes me think of the bumper sticker I have with pictures of Franklin, Madison, Adams, that says "Right Wing Extremists"

TallPine
June 12, 2006, 05:16 PM
But what if one really is an "anarchist radical" ? ;)

(at least by some people's definition :rolleyes: )

The Drew
June 12, 2006, 05:50 PM
This thread again shows why gunowners will eventually lose the fight...

There is no solidarity between pro gun types, too many differing opinions on what and who to defend, Just because someone seems like an extremist, that divides the pro gun community, Some of us refuse to give a damn because their personal politics don't jive with our world view.

The anti's don't have this problem, they're goal is to just outlaw all guns, and anything that forwards that agenda, their side is together...

We need to stop apologizing for a government that IS infringing on our rights, and put the infighting aside and actually come together and support each other. WE ARE IN THIS FIGHT TOGETHER!

ProficientRifleman
June 12, 2006, 06:23 PM
Why don't you extremist types just learn to submit, comply and be good citizens? Don't you believe in progress?

The cops are always right!

Sincerely,

Good Citizen

Just wanting to work hard, obey the law, pay my taxes and raise my children...

The Cavalry
June 12, 2006, 06:29 PM
Mel Gibson called, he wants his "Braveheart" speech back. ;)

With that said, I've requested vacation time for this event. Might even have enough freq flyer miles to book a free ticket, this is the best reason I can imagine to take a trip Out West.

GunnySkox
June 12, 2006, 06:52 PM
When will the Combine see fit to deactivate the Suppression Field?

Sincerely,
~A Concerned Citizen

:D

~GnSx
www.hlcomic.com
Just trying to lighten the mood

Derby FALs
June 12, 2006, 07:31 PM
Logic is never going to win over emotion...

Headless Thompson Gunner
June 12, 2006, 08:13 PM
So, umm... Have we learned anything new about the raid on KT Ord?

mp510
June 12, 2006, 08:52 PM
Remember, right now the ATFE is only investegating. This guy has not (to my knowledge) yet been charged with anything much less convicted. The evidence that was taken can as much exhonerate him as it can fry him, depending on what it tells.

Quaamik
June 12, 2006, 09:08 PM
L. Neil Smith put this one in perspective many years ago with this comment:

"You may never convince the other guy, but it's often worthwhile to keep arguing for the effect it has on bystanders, especially his allies."

To put a more understandable spin on it, think about WACO and Ruby Ridge. Now seriously think about how most of the country, h&%$ ... the entire county outside the RKBA moveemnt, views these two incidents. If necessary, stike up a conversation with someone outside of the RKBA about either one.

Bring up Ruby Ridge, and most people will stare at you blankly. Ditto the name Randy Weaver. Explain it to them and they will immediatle belive that he must have done *something* wrong.

Bring up WACO, and you are likely to be told how Koresh was molesting the children on the compound and that it's thie childrens parents fault they died because after all they could have just given up.

All the ranting in the world will not get the press to print anything that paints him as less than satan incarnate. Reasoned, well though and well worded press releases stand at least a small chance of being published. If only one in 100 (non RKBA insiders) read such a press release about his issue, and only 1 in 10 believe it and take the opinion that he may be being wrongfully prosecuted, that could mean some 200,000 supporters. That kind of support is worth trying to cultivate.

GigaBuist
June 12, 2006, 09:35 PM
It would have probably been a good idea to skip 90% of the Braveheart stuff. The "tell them America's sons and daughterrs are theirs no more" was plenty and he should have ended it there.

Maybe we need some kind of freebie PR firm like thing that's made up of folks with a more level head and some really good writing abilities. Nothing against Richard, but given that he's so close to the situation he's likely to be angrier than anybody else out there.

I like Vex's version much better. Vex, maybe you could try contacting him and asking him to put out a milder version with his endorsement? Just a thought.

Psssniper
June 12, 2006, 10:02 PM
This thread again shows why gunowners will eventually lose the fight...

exactly what I was thinking, :( united we stand divided we fall

carpettbaggerr
June 12, 2006, 10:03 PM
Think about how much this letter could be used by the antis to prove all gun owners are eextemist anarchists. It should worry you.........
In the original, there's too much talk about death, dying, killing, etc...
Yeah. Wouldn't want the anti's to find any extremist quotes, especially about death and dying, and being ready to use force if absolutely necessary
“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!” “"The liberties of our country, the freedoms of our civil Constitution are worth defending at all hazards; it is our duty to defend them against all attacks. We have received them as a fair inheritance from our worthy ancestors. They purchased them for us with toil and danger and expense of treasure and blood. It will bring a mark of everlasting infamy on the present generation – enlightened as it is – if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle, or to be cheated out of them by the artifices of designing men."“Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains or slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take but as for me; give me liberty or give me death!”“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.”
Celata's prose isn't quite up to snuff, but you get the idea, don't you?

Jim March
June 13, 2006, 12:36 AM
This is how the BATFE plans to set precident.

Attack somebody who is enough out of the mainstream that they won't attract defenders. Pick them off. And then use that successful bust to go after others of a similar type but more mainstream attitudes and with more friends.

Folks, we will *always* have people who are either less articulate or more radical than most. Everything is a bell curve. It doesn't matter. Harping on what the guy coulda/woulda/shoulda done is...well, disgusting under the circumstances.

only1asterisk
June 13, 2006, 01:04 AM
That is exactly the plan, Jim.

David

'Card
June 13, 2006, 01:27 AM
*snork*

Call it 'disgusting' all you want, but it doesn't change the facts, and I'm with Vex on this one. I'm as pro-RKBA as any of you, but I read that statement and my gut reaction said "tinfoil-hat wearing whackjob."

Our opponents keep winning the PR fight because we keep playing right into their hands, when our most visible proponents end up sounding and acting exactly the way they want to stereotype all of us.

We won't win this fight by screaming the loudest and the longest. We won't win it in a noble last stand of blood and gunfire. This is a democratic republic. We'll win it by converting the reasonable center to our side, and we'll lose it by alienating them.

Vex
June 13, 2006, 01:35 AM
Celata's prose isn't quite up to snuff, but you get the idea, don't you?

No, I see a major difference. The people who stated those quotes had no other option. As Americans, we have plenty of options.

Look, the people who fought the revolutionary war had no other choice. They were being unfairly taxed without representation. The British moved armies into the cities to make sure the colonists paid their taxes because they were greedy, money hungry, fat pigs who were in too much debt from previous wars.

We're not in this situation. The ATF raiding some guy for whatever reason, justified or not, is not the beginning of the call to arms for the revolution of 2006. It's utter BS.

The difference is the bolded part above. As Americans, we are represented in the government. We have too many options available to us.

I hate to break it to ya, but it's not time to start a new revolution against the "jack booted thugs" :rolleyes: of the ATF. Sorry to ruin your day.

Now since you're so obsessed with quotes that involve death, try this one: Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'. Hoping for a civil war is no life. Working to change the law through legislation and techniques that don't involve bloodshed is hard work, and we need all the people we can muster. A civil war is premature.

Hear this: When/If the time comes for a revolution, I'll speak my peace with society and join the ranks of whichever side I belong on. Until then, we owe it to our forefathers and our children to be decent.

mkh100
June 13, 2006, 01:42 AM
Card said this "This is a democratic republic. We'll win it by converting the reasonable center to our side, and we'll lose it by alienating them."

smartest thing I have heard since/about the KT raid.......card you nailed it, and we as gun owners have work to do !

Mike

Third_Rail
June 13, 2006, 01:54 AM
I'm as pro-RKBA as any of you, but...

Sounds a lot like "I'm a gun owner, but..." that the antis say, yes?


United we stand, divided we will be defeated. These are all minor nitpicks, really, compared to how important this struggle is. It takes a braver man to vocalize what he believes in than to shoot those that disagree, yes? I believe Celata, so far, has chosen the correct path of resistance. He may not be articulating what he believes perfectly, but his words still ring true.


Let me now state that I do agree that a non-violent option, no, many non-violent options are still open to us which we should try. I agree that any and all non-violent options should be tried, many times over. We still are able to work within the system, as slow and difficult as it may be.

only1asterisk
June 13, 2006, 01:55 AM
Not democratic republic, federal republic.

David

Vex
June 13, 2006, 02:04 AM
Sounds a lot like "I'm a gun owner, but..." that the antis say, yes?


You didn't even finish the guy's quote. That looks like the "selective reading and editing" that the antis do, yes?

I'm as pro-RKBA as any of you, but I read that statement and my gut reaction said "tinfoil-hat wearing whackjob."


Exactly.

United we stand, divided we will be defeated. These are all minor nitpicks, really, compared to how important this struggle is.

So let me ask you this... who's the dividing party? If we're divided, then tell me which part of the RKBA isn't being a team player.

neoncowboy
June 13, 2006, 08:28 AM
The difference is the bolded part above. As Americans, we are represented in the government. We have too many options available to us.

As I read this, I recalled the letter I wrote to my senators and congressman yesterday. It drew their attention to this case, to the recent ATF hearings and requested politely that they please renew efforts to reign in this rogue agency of federal police.

I am afraid to mail it. I'm afraid of what list my name will be on if I send that letter in. I'm afraid of becoming a target of 'federal gun law investigations' myself...and no, I haven't broken any gun laws. I'm afraid of what might happen to me in teh future if I wind up on their list of "tinfoil-hat wearing whackjob[s]."

After all, it's only the anti-government extremist, white supremacist racist, militia, domestic terrorist nutjobs who send in letters to their representatives requesting accountability from the federal gun police, isn't it?

Is that what you mean by being represented by the government?

Do you see that it's the actions of the ATF that have caused me to be afraid and do you think you can concede that it's a reseonable fear?

The Drew
June 13, 2006, 09:12 AM
I'm as pro-RKBA as any of you, but

That is exactly my point, too many "but"s Like I support concealed carry, but
nobody is responsible enough to carry in bars.

Since I'm a hunter, I see no need for anyone to have an assault weapon.

Or, I support the right for everyone to have any semiautomatic weapons they want, but machine guns are evil...

I support the 2nd amendment, but only when it comes to my hunting rifle/shotgun...

gezzer
June 13, 2006, 09:25 AM
They were being unfairly taxed without representation

Being taxed with representation has proven to be about the same or worse.

saltydog
June 13, 2006, 09:33 AM
Not democratic republic, federal republic.


You hit the nail right on the head. This is one of the best kept secrets in this country. Hell most people who run this forum probably didn't get this one.:uhoh:

Mongo the Mutterer
June 13, 2006, 09:42 AM
Look, the people who fought the revolutionary war had no other choice. They were being unfairly taxed without representation. The British moved armies into the cities to make sure the colonists paid their taxes because they were greedy, money hungry, fat pigs who were in too much debt from previous wars.Vex, I agree with your post, except for the part highlighted. The people who fought thought they had no choice, but they were far from the majority of the population of the Colonies.

About 1/3 were what we consider today "Patriots", 1/3 were Tories, loyal to the Crown, and the final 1/3 didn't care one way or the other.

They did have a choice back then. We have a choice today, but I prefer to use the current representative government to effect or deflect change. You seem to feel the same.

cropcirclewalker
June 13, 2006, 09:55 AM
If he was doing a BraveHeart, he would be bending over and blowing fireballs out of his arse.

This is a hoot. Everybody here except for the apologists and infiltrators agree that the atf is outa line and needs to be shut down.

Outa line and needs to be shut down and never mentioned again.

Alcohol got made legal. Does ATF chase underage drinkers? No glory.

Tobacco is not only legal but fast falling into disuse. Does ATF chase underage smokers? Dull.

Firearms are constitutionally protected. The worst outrage and these clowns revel in stomping our God given and constitutionally protected rights.

It's not like he is lining up a rebellion or anything. He is just vigorously and with spirited dialog trying to spit in their eye and tell them that he is still going to have his shoot.

You think it's fiery rhetoric? Go listen to a WWF commercial.

Sheesh!

ATF needs to be put out of it's misery, buried and never mentioned again.

YellowLab
June 13, 2006, 11:16 AM
'taxation without representation'.... OK, how many idiots in Congress are REPRESENTING YOUR INTERESTS? Your VALUES? Your MORALS?

Have the boarders been secured?

Have criminals been routed from your community?

Why are politicians in the news busted for BRIBES, DRUGS, or IMMORAL BEHAVIOR? Do you not think that a Congress idiot will sell you up the river of a golf outing?

ARE YOU ALLOWED TO DEFEND YOURSELF, YOUR PROPERTY, YOUR FAMILY?

Are you allowed to make a living without OVERBEARING TAXES?

I cannot put up a fence in my back yard without the GOVERNMENTS APPROVAL. I have to pay a tax, and submit to thier demands on what a fence should be. For a FENCE. A GOD DAMNED FENCE.

The BATFE is nothing more than people who want to CONTROL YOU... you have a RIGHT to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS.... do you think that you are being 'REPRESENTED' by the BATFE? That your Congress idiot is 'REPRESENTING your interests' with respect to the BATFE?

If thats what I pro-gun kook believes in then oh well... pass the tin foil (which is now made in CHINA) as I'll be needing some PRONTO.

Bartholomew Roberts
June 13, 2006, 12:06 PM
OK, how many idiots in Congress are REPRESENTING YOUR INTERESTS? Your VALUES? Your MORALS?

Please name me the democratic republic that guarantees that YOUR interests, YOUR values, and YOUR morals will be represented at all times in the government? If YOUR interests aren't represented, maybe you should stop and ask why that is? Vex is absolutely right to point out that we all have the ability to change things by getting involved with government. As a gun owner who DOES do some of those things (and even then not as much as I should do), I can tell you that I can always find 30 people on THR talking about the next revolution; but I can rarely get one gunowner to show up to a city council meeting, help out a pro-gun candidate on the phones, etc.

Nobody makes movies starring Mel Gibson about passing out campaign literature door-to-door while tramping through Texas streets in the summer; but that is how change gets done. It isn't quite as romantic as standing on the bridge at Concord; but holding town hall meetings and luncheons for pro-gun candidates has a lot more effect than all the patriot rhetoric combined.

As to this incident, rather than focusing on the things we do not agree on (like the communication effectiveness of Richard's unique amalgam of Braveheart and the Declaration of Independence), we should be concentrating on where we do all agree. Personally, I don't think the post Richard made was very effective in helping him out. In fact, I am sure that the ATF hoped for precisely that kind of response and planned on it when they decided to target him. Having said that, targeting a business for doing something that is within the law is wrong and ATF has a bad history in this regard. I can get on board wholeheartedly with pursuing that goal.

We've been spending a lot of time on THR lately concentrating on where we disagree and that is just natural since there isn't much to say on subjects where we do agree. However, I think it is important to remember what we do have in common and what we do agree on; because if we don't it will be an easy task to fragment us and reduce our political power.

rbernie
June 13, 2006, 12:20 PM
'taxation without representation'.... OK, how many idiots in Congress are REPRESENTING YOUR INTERESTS? Your VALUES? Your MORALS?The ones I elected.
Have the boarders been secured?I am prepared to repel boarders at the earliest need.
Have criminals been routed from your community?By and large, yes.
Why are politicians in the news busted for BRIBES, DRUGS, or IMMORAL BEHAVIOR? For the same reason that non-politicians are in the news busted for BRIBES, DRUGS, or IMMORAL BEHAVIOR - because it's human nature.
Do you not think that a Congress idiot will sell you up the river of a golf outing?As would most any idiot, regardless of whether they're elected to Congress or not.
ARE YOU ALLOWED TO DEFEND YOURSELF, YOUR PROPERTY, YOUR FAMILY?Yes.
Are you allowed to make a living without OVERBEARING TAXES?If overbearing is defined as 'any', then no. If overbearing is defined as, say, something close to a Northern European tax rate, then yes.
The BATFE is nothing more than people who want to CONTROL YOU... Actually, they want a reason to exist. Controlling us gives them that, but so can other things if redirected properly.
do you think that you are being 'REPRESENTED' by the BATFE?I do not elect them, therefore they cannot 'represent' me.
That your Congress idiot is 'REPRESENTING your interests' with respect to the BATFE?No - they do not perceive the problems, or believe them to be significant enough to demand change. And *that* perception is caused by the fact that 99% of their flippin' constituants do not believe there to be an issue.

You can push this problem around all you want, but in the end the reality is that you cannot get your concerns addressed unless you can convince the majority of America that there really is a problem to solve. THAT is when the elected officials take notice. Look at it this way - if your elected officials started proposing constitutional changes or offering up Federal code regarding the legal definition of marriage or the legality of certain drugs without a plurality of support within their district, you'd be all up in arms over it. Why should their behavior in regard to firearms rights and abuses be any different?

We've been spending a lot of time on THR lately concentrating on where we disagree and that is just natural since there isn't much to say on subjects where we do agree. However, I think it is important to remember what we do have in common and what we do agree on; because if we don't it will be an easy task to fragment us and reduce our political power.Bravo, and agreed. I think that the division that I seen here is related to how to accomplish a response without alienating the very hearts-n-minds that we need to convert. If we're not willing to seek that middle ground amongst ourselves, we certainly cannot effectively carry the fight outward.

tyme
June 13, 2006, 12:22 PM
They were being unfairly taxed without representation.
Vex, the Founders didn't sign us up for random taxation contingent on representation. That would be a pure representative democracy. We have a Constitutional representative democracy, and the constitution grants no power to the government to tax, much less strictly regulate, intrastate manufacture of firearms.

bogie
August 15, 2006, 08:51 AM
Okay... Met a fellow last week, thought I'd do a search on something about gunsmiths and the new "manufacturing" stuff, and I see that y'all have taken a perfectly good thread, and degenerated it into "define the kind of government we have, and it better be my definition."

Guys, I know why we're slowly using the battle. We focus worse on the problem at hand than a hyperactive ADD/ADHD/Whatever kid immediately after a triple espresso with extra sugar...

antarti
August 15, 2006, 01:02 PM
Does somebody's poor excercise of the 1st Amendment somehow limit their enjoyment of the 2nd?

I hope everybody makes sure the ATF's latest victims aren't too rich, too poor, too well spoken, too soft-spoken, too dramatic, too farcical, or otherwise worthy of our attentions before responding, i.e. not 'you'.

After all, it'll be a long, long time before they get around to good, honest, white-collar, well-educated, articulate, monied, and good-looking people like myself.

:barf:

This is one of the reasons I hardly lurk here anymore: self-defeatists bore me.

carebear
December 12, 2006, 03:38 PM
Saying "hey, you could have said that better" doesn't have anything to do with believing someone deserves fewer rights.

As the rewrite shows, you can make the same exact points in a way that WON'T offend fencesitters and in fact might bring them to your side.

We need votes on these issues people, we are a minority. You don't get votes by alienating middle America or scaring soccer moms. You get votes by being the most sensible, most logical, most reasonable side in the argument.

That way the ANTI'S get to be the ones sounding like frothing at the mouth extremists.

If you enjoyed reading about "More on the KT Ordinance raid" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!