[Tim Currie]

Whats the relation? Just a quick run down is all....

I was looking at a "Bersa Firestorm 380" today at local gun shop.

Possibly interested in getting one of these "Bersa" .380's for the GF. Anyhow, whats the deal?

[Handy]

I imagine someone came up with a plan to sell two slow lines under one new name. Doesn't mean much.

HS2000=XD

[Tim Currie]

Don't follow....

[Handy]

Sorry.

Bersa was sold in the US as Bersa.
Same thing with Llama.

Neither had good sales, and Llama had a poor rep.

Rebadge them both as "Firestorm" and they get a new lease on life, and Llama made products get a boost from the quality of the Bersa items.

The HS2000 was a little known Croatian gun that was sold for less than $300. But Springfield Armory worked a deal and imported them as the "Springfield XD". Now they sell like hotcakes for $450.

[hksw]

Bersas are still known as Bersas outside of the US (at least in Argentina, where they are made).

[surfinUSA]

The Springfield HD/ Croation HS 2000 are a quality firearm the rest are just junk that should be avoided.

[priv8ter]

Do you speak from first-hand knowledge, SurfinUSA?

In my personal experience, the Bersa .380's and the Firestorm Mini 9/40(which are made by Bersa) are very well put together firearms, and for their price, considered some of the best value's on the market.

The Lllama line of .45's is still regarded as somewhat...lacking.

But I would not hesitate to trust my name to one of the new Bersa/Firestorms.

Greg

[Tim Currie]

Alright so is there any reason to buy the Firestorm Bersa over the older Bersa?

From what I saw on gunbroker the Firestorm had finger grooves in the grip where as the standard Bersa did not.

This looks like the one I handled at the shop today but w/o the mag extension:

http://www.gunbroker.com/pixhost/2003-01-05/GUNFINDER.NET_1042125193_fs380m.jpg

[New_comer]

Bersa : beautiful gun :D


XD : Ugly gun :neener:


wouldn't mind getting either one of them... ;)

[DougB]

I believe (judging from photos) that the Bersa .380s have a windage adjustable rear sight (there appears to be a screw in the side of it). The Firestorm version appears to have a less-streamlined fixed rear sight. Also, for Californians, Bersas are CA-approved in several finishes, whereas the Firestorm version is only approved in matte black. I do like the look of the Firestorm finger groove grips, but I'd probably pick the Bersa version for the adjustable sights. None of this is based on first-hand experience with these pistols, so I'm certainly open to correction.

Doug

[Handy]

All Bersa's are quality, with more of a track record than the XD.

(Surfers!)


I think the old Bersas were more attractive, but they are not really different, except maybe the sights, as pointed out.

[surfinUSA]

Well, I'll admit its been years since I shot a Bersa. At that time it left such an unfavorable impression I've never gone back.

As far as the XD, its a good pistol, certainly better than a Bersa and way better than a Llama. However, if I was in the market for a polymer gun I'd still get a Glock. Its the original it works and has a proven track record. Plus the've always shot well for me when I've had the oppertunity to use them.

[Bowlcut]

Glockon :p sorry...not much of a glock fan myself.


but dad has a bursa .380 and loves it. Ive shot it a few times as well. Nice piece. Hits what you point at it, and sturdy little thing. Plus its always a good deal for one.

Ive thought a bout an Llama, as *I thought* they were basicly the same company... But anyway.

Bursa is nice for a small gun

[Dorrin79]

I just bought a Bersa off of a friend of mine's roommate

it's a thunder .380 model.

Let me tell ya - this gun is NICE. I haven't taken it to the range yet (hopefully going this weekend) to see if it shoots as well as it looks, but I must say I am extremely impressed.

If I can shoot it accurately, I may have to go get another one for myself (since the one I bought is intended to be a Mother's day present for mi madre)

[hksw]

There was one early Bersa .380 that was always on my list but never reached the top that I regret not getting. It was the high capacity model. IIRC it was called the Modell 85. It's now call the Thunder 380 Super and not sold in the US.

[MJRW]

Pardon Surfin, he is pawning off opinion as fact. The bersa is as fine a gun as you can buy. The XD and the Bersa are totally different guns and I don't really know how one could say that one is better than the other. Its possible that Surfin wasn't familiar with the bite from the .380 blowbacks.

The Bersa itself has a proven track record of reliability and quality. They also have very nice triggers. In my opinion, they are the nicest trigger of any .380 in current production. There is one definite advantage to the firestorm: the trigger guard. This will make holster shopping much easier than it is for the Bersa which has a squared off trigger guard. I believe that any Walther PPK holster will work for the Firestorm you have shown.

Additionally, that fixed sight may be a blessing. There is nothing that can be done for Bersa sights short of getting a smith to do some major work to it. It looks like the sights on the firestorm may be replaceable.

[Spot77]

Having shot the "Big 4" .380's, I can tell you that:

The Walther/PPK was junk. Misfed, and wouldn't eject right. I don't know the exact year/model/manufacturer, but it was enough of a turnoff to avoid it.

Beretta 380: Again, I'm not gunucated enough to know the exact model, but I REALLY liked the gun. It was a FILTHY rental gun, and performed flawlessly.

CZ83 .380. Nice gun. Didn't care for the trigger, but felt great, and was very accurate. I don't think anybody says much bad about any model CZ.

Bersa Thunder 380: Felt great in my BIG hands, the beat up rental gun shot flawlessly and accurately - I liked it so much that I bought one. I have about 1200 rounds through it without a single malfunction. I've used federal Hydrashock, Winclean, Federal (whatever the red box stuff is), and PMC ammo.


So, I guess to define a firearm as "quality" or "junk" would have to be based on the opinion of the beholder. I know many people LOVE their Walthers and would never give them up. My first impression is a lasting impression. And BERSA owners probably feel the same.

I too am confused abot the BERSA/Llama/Firestorm relationships, but I KNOW my BERSA performs. I would probably avoid the other branded (Llama, Firestorm) models unless I had similar positive experiences first.

Thank God for rental guns!

[surfinUSA]

Spot,

I agree with you on the Beretta 380s, great guns as far as accuracy and reliability. They feel great in your hand too. If I ever get another 380 this would be the gun, either the 84 or the 85. Great SA and DA trigger pulls.

The only one you missed is the SIG 230/232 380s. Also very accurate and reliable.

The last 380 I had was a Walther ppk/s made by Manhurin in France. Surprisingly this was one of the most accurate guns I've ever owned. Its got the cool factor but definately dated and not as refined as the SIG or Berettas. Very heavy DA trigger pull.

It must be 10 years since I got rid of the Walther. Ever since the advent of compact 9mms and 40s I have no use for a 380. Although my SIG 239 in 40 isn't quite as small its easy to conceal and shoots a much better round not to mention the best DA trigger pull on a semi auto.

What most people don't realize is that these little blowback 380s have a sharper recoil than most of the sub/compact 9mms like the Type M Beretta, SIG 239, S&W 3913 or Glock 26 because their locked action absorbs alot of the recoil.

Additionally, MJRW, you are correct, I am just stating my opinion. However, that opinion is based in fact and hands on experience.

[KPersimmon]

Llama: I owned a .380 Micromax briefly and hated it. The gun jammed with every kind of ammo I tried to feed it. A couple of local dealers wouldn't even take it as a trade, citing its poor reputation and lack of decent serviceability. I finally was able to sell it and was surely glad I did.

I have no personal experience with the others, but if they're decent-quality guns then I wouldn't think the Llama deserves to be lumped in with them.

[sig225]

I have a Bersa Thunder and find it to be a very good gun. I have not had any failures. The gun is comfortable in my hand. I have shot the CZ 83, Walther PPK, SIG 232, and the Bersa before buying. The SIG was my favorite but at the time I could not afford it. My second favorite was the Bersa followed closely by the CZ. The Walther I didn't care for much.

I am curious if the Firestorm finger grooved grips will fit on my Bersa?

[Spot77]

>>>The only one you missed is the SIG 230/232 380s. Also very accurate and reliable.


Yeah, you're right....Like I said, I'm not gunucated enough to know/remember all the different models. I've never fired a Sig .380. Shot a Sig 239 9mm and loved it.

And you're right about the sharp recoil on the BERSA (and all the others of similar style I would assume). But for some reason, I really like the way it shoots....I never noticed the recoil untill I shot my brother's USP 9 (full size even) and then went back to my .380. But I still shoot both of them equally well (equally poor, would be a better term!!!!), so maybe it doesn't affect me as much as some other people.

I would guess that the Llama and Firestorm models are pretty identical to the BERSA as far as design??? Maybe the quality control issues are from the guns being made in a different facility??

I suppose when you spend less than $250 on a gun, it can be a hit or miss deal (sorry for the bad pun)...But I would feel 100% confident relying on my BERSA if I ever needed it for more than some fun at the range.

[railroader]

Spot77, bersa and llama are two completely different companies. Bersa is in argentina and llama is in spain. Mark

[The Kidd]

I must strongly object to this continued trashing of Llama pistols. I own a Max-I and a Mini-Max. With approx 1000 rounds between them I have had ONE misfire and I may have limp-wristed that one. IMHO these are great value firearms.

[Handy]

Perry, how did you get the gun to misfire by limpwristing?

Limpwristing causes jams.

[The Kidd]

You are correct. I mispoke. The Mini-Max failed to eject.

[KPersimmon]

<<<I must strongly object to this continued trashing of Llama pistols. I own a Max-I and a Mini-Max. With approx 1000 rounds between them I have had ONE misfire and I may have limp-wristed that one. IMHO these are great value firearms.>>>


I apologize if I seemed to be trashing what you consider to be a good firearm manufacturer. I was just reporting my own bad experiences (and resulting bad attitude.) I'm glad that you've had good service from your Llamas and hope this continues.

[Snowdog]

Heck, I'll throw in my .02 just to kill time. On a lark, I bought a Llama MiniMax .45acp at a gunshow a couple year ago for $230 NIB. Something to keep in the FSJ if it worked.

Overall, I am pleased with it. It's no Kimber for certain, but it fed all 400 or so rounds I've put through it so far without a problem. In the accuracy department, it's acceptable for what it was purchased for.

The only complaint is that out of every magazine, at least one spent casing is ejected straight back and sure enough to bonk me square in the forehead. Yes, this will draw blood and leave a welt if you're not wearing a cap (which is now required shooting apparel).

Considering that it feeds all JHPs I've put through it and sends them downrange fairly accurately, I believe I was spared a lemon. I'm happy with my Llama.


http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid41/pad2b84273eabdc93658fae868ae1dcfb/fcfb63ab.jpg

[454c]

I too must disagree with the Llama bashing.After owning some junk 9's,I bought my first .45.A Llama Max-I.It was nice to shoot a gun that didn't jam all the time.I still have it and it still shoots great.

[Bowlcut]

And you know what....the above gun....is pretty dang good looking. To me atleast. Id own that gun...and sport it from time to time.

I just know dad's little Bersa is a nice gun to shoot. He keeps it on him almost 24/7 and only ends up shooting it maybe once a month if he is lucky. It has yet to have one problem.

As with most any gun manufacture today....the constraints are so tight on all guns, that even a cheap one functions nicely. Not like back in the day when a cheap gun might leave you out in the dark cause it was built on such loose tollerances.

[doublebarrel]

The Bersa Thunder 380 looks like the good ol' Walther PPK, at least to me. I wouldn't get a PPK if I want a .380 caliber, as there're so many better and smaller modern .380's now, like the upcoming Kel-Tec P-3AT. There's one Bersa I'm really interested.

I learned it from their web site, in Argentina. There's a Berse Thunder 22. It looks exactly like the Thunder 380, chamber in .22LR. I think shooting .22LR out of a Walther PPK look-alike is soooooo cool!;)

Never was able to find on in gun shops, though...