Need help convincing a chief to issue


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Phantom Warrior
April 29, 2003, 10:18 PM
I'm going to explain all this boring background first so no one thinks I'm trying to evade the law. I live in Minnesota. Currently the law is discretionary-issue, 18 years old and up. In 30 days that changes to shall-issue, 21 years old and up. I'm 20 years old. I've been denied twice in my home town by chiefs that say "Tell me why you should be able to carry a gun." And then they denied my application (this is under the soon-to-be-old may-issue law). I am going to try and get a permit issued under the current law. This permit will be grandfathered in under the new law and will cover me until I turn 21, at which time I'll apply under the new law. This is legal under all the applicable laws at the time they will be applicable.

So here's my question. I need to convince the chief to issue me a permit, which he doesn't have to do. We had a little bit of a scuffle last summer. I applied and he didn't give me written denial within 21 days, which meant the permit should have be issued. I respectfully brought it to his attention and he got pretty angry. He calmed down and suggested I talk to the city attorney. I talked to the attorney and he said that he thought the chief was right. I don't agree, but I didn't have the resources to take it to court and I didn't want there to be bad blood over a technicality when I had to reapply to the same guy next year. I, of course, didn't realize shall-issue would pass this year. I intend to be respectful and apologize for any disrespect that he might have perceived. If I get that smoothed over, I'm still back to my initial problem. The chief is generally favorable to concealed carry. He only denied 6 applications out of 144 in 2002 (source: BCA report).

I've talked enough. If you need clarifications, let me know. Otherwise, tell me what you think.

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Telperion
April 29, 2003, 10:45 PM
I suggest stating your case to him as you have here; that you don't want to wait until you are 21 to exercise your right to self-defense. Since the state law is changing, the most he can do is deny you out of spite, which is not in his interest as a public figure. Worst case, you'll just have to wait. :rolleyes:

Better than what I have to deal with here in CA...

Frohickey
April 29, 2003, 11:08 PM
You could try bringing him bags full of campaign contributions... thats how it works in **********.

MeekandMild
April 29, 2003, 11:13 PM
What is it with kids these days? I suspect you want to drink at the "Whites Only" water fountain too? :neener:

I think that what I'd do would be to stay off his radar screen and wait another year. He's telling you in plain language he doesn't care what you say, you're a second class citizen.

SkunkApe
April 29, 2003, 11:38 PM
He only denied 6 out of 144, and you were one of the 6? Why?

Phantom Warrior
April 30, 2003, 12:01 AM
I don't know. I'm a responsible, well-behaved, articulate, normal-looking college student w/ a clean record. I sincerely hope you aren't trying to imply anything...

MeekandMild, I'm going to be respectful when I talk to him. If he doesn't like me excercising my right to apply for a permit it won't matter next year (when I turn 21) because the law will be shall-issue.

Greg L
April 30, 2003, 08:34 AM
When's your birthday? It might be best to wait.

OTOH if you want to make a bit of a fuss apply again and see what happens (using the above scenario of being polite). If he denies you again (even with your logical reasoning being presented) then find a reasonably pro 2nd reporter (yes, I know, needle in a haystack type of search) who might be interested in writing a story on how "may issue" can be abused and how "shall issue" will help everyone.

Greg

Waitone
April 30, 2003, 08:42 AM
How long before you turn 21?

College student, eh? Do you live on campus or at home? Are you fulltime or part-time? Do you work at a job while doing the school thing?

hso
April 30, 2003, 08:54 AM
You say that you are a college student. If you're a clean upstanding young man the chief's reason for including you in the other 5 denials last year may be based on your residence status.

Are you living off campus? Would it be permissable for you to keep a weapon on campus? Would it be permissable to carry on campus? The chief may not see any way for you to carry the weapon in compliance with the law most of the time and may not see any way for you to even keep it legally in you residence if the answers to these questions are no.

Did you come from the town you're trying to get the permit from? Are you a registerd voter? If you're from out of town he may view you as a triansient resident with ties to the community and therefore somehow less reliable than you view yourself to be.

Do you have a job? If you do then he may recognize that you would be off campus a significant part of the time and would consider it possible that you might have a greater need than a kid that never has to leave campus.

Is there any, even the most trivial (several unpaid traffic/parking fines), police record of any type? This could put his impression of your responsible nature at odds with your own view of yourself.

Do you drink alcohol at all? If you do, add to the fact that you are a college student and that a high percentage of college students engage in binge drinking and drink more frequently than non-college folks. Even if you don't drink more than a beer with the guys once a week how does he know that.

Any of these may be reason enough to refuse to cooperate.

cordex
April 30, 2003, 09:14 AM
Sometimes I forget how lucky I am to live in an 18+ shall-issue state. Thanks for the reminder!

Phantom,
Sorry, I don't have a lot of experience with excuses for getting a carry license but I wish you luck. Do you work nights? Ever been attacked? What are the published crime figures for your area? For your campus? Ever have to carry large amounts of money for your job?


hso,
Are you living off campus? Would it be permissable for you to keep a weapon on campus? Would it be permissable to carry on campus? The chief may not see any way for you to carry the weapon in compliance with the law most of the time and may not see any way for you to even keep it legally in you residence if the answers to these questions are no.
Perhaps, but this strikes me as a stretch. Generally someone applying for a CCW permit already has a handgun or two (or three in this gentleman's case). If he's allowed to keep it in his residence, he doesn't need a CCW to do so. If he isn't allowed, a CCW probably won't help him.

Not sure what his state's rules are on packing while on a college campus, but I don't see how that will be affected by his being issued a permit today or a year from now (I assume he'll still be in college).

Plus, this doesn't sound like the Chief has engaged in full information gathering on this guy. Sounds like he's turning a 'kid' down because he's a 'kid'. I doubt if he knows whether or not Phantom drinks, lives on campus, voters or what-have-you.

MrKandiyohi
April 30, 2003, 10:06 AM
The reason you're having a problem is the exact reason the new law was passed. The chief decides whether or not you 'deserve' a permit.

You're in the exact same spot as before. Apply, play nice, and hope he gives you one. If not, you're SOL until 21.

Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Jrob24
April 30, 2003, 12:37 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since the state law is changing, the most he can do is deny you out of spite, which is not in his interest as a public figure
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree. Next month I'm going to apply again for CCW. Last year I was denied. He claimed I didn't have enough gun ownership experience. This time I will point out that I will inevitably get a CCW so by denying me one he's not accomplishing anything. If he decides to be a jerk I will take him to court and argue that he unfairly discriminated against me, maybe using 14th amd. He addmitted issuing CCW's to other people.

bogie
April 30, 2003, 01:38 PM
Suggest that you remain patient, and give yourself a 21st birthday present. Remember that if one tries to teach a pig to sing, it frustrates the teacher and annoys the pig, and the desired result is only very rarely achieved...

megatronrules
April 30, 2003, 02:23 PM
This is bull this is why we need shall issue everywhere or better yet a vermont style carry system in place. I am from up north originaly (Rhode Island) try getting a ccw permit there sometimes :rolleyes: As for what jrob24 mention about how the chief may not feel you have enough gun onwership experiance? Please i've seen the way alot of cops handle guns and its downright scary to say the least. My advice is wait till the law changes I know it may seem like forever before you turn 21 but it will happen. I've been where you are now thank god i escaped to florida :D

Don't reapply and let this guy self indulge in his elitist mind set Its good the law changed to shall-issue in MN. This crap of police chiefs in may-issue states treating people like sencond class citizens needs to stop. We are equel citizens no more or less because we don't have a badge leo's are civil servants there to serve us not demean us. no disrespect to leo's intended but thats how I feel.

CMcDermott
May 1, 2003, 01:59 PM
Since you are under 21, is it legal for you to own/buy a handgun in Minnisota? He may be denying you simply on your age making your purchase of a handgun illegal.

Phantom Warrior
May 1, 2003, 07:41 PM
I'll try to answer everyone's questions.

HSO: I'm from the town where I'm applying. I go to school in a different town (fours hours south). One thing the chief did say was he didn't like the fact he'd be giving me a permit and then I'd be carrying in someone else's jurisdiction. Which is silly because a) I wasn't going to carry at school because it's not allowed on campus and b) it's statewide permit. Regarding my record, I have never gotten anything more serious than a parking ticket and those were all paid on time. Regarding alcohol, I don't drink at all. Not a drop (except for communion :) ).

CORDEX: You are extremely lucky. Don't ever forget it. I've been trying for two and a half years under two different chiefs. It may take another 6 months if the chief won't issue now. Honestly, I'm inclined to agree with your statement that he is probably turning me down just because I'm "a kid." My goal is to try and convince him otherwise, but we'll see.

CMcDermott: Due to the pecularities of MN law it is currently illegal to buy a handgun or ammuntion until you are 21, but it is legal to carry a handgun as soon as your are 18 (until the new law takes effect). I own three handguns that my father purchased for me, including the Glock 23 I intend to carry. Buying for a family member is legal, don't get me wrong.


Thanks for your comments. I'm going to apply anyway. I will be polite and the whole nine yards, but if he doesn't like it and turns me down it won't matter. Because in 6 months I'll be 21 and he won't have a choice about issuing to me. So I figure I have nothing to lose and possibly a permit to gain. Anymore thoughts would be appreciated.

SkunkApe
May 2, 2003, 12:19 AM
I admire your perserverence. Good luck.

I think if I were you, I'd just wait the six months. I guess six months seems like a long time for a young man. It took me fourteen years to get mine. I moved to Michigan in 1987 and became active with the pro-gun movement. Michigan got "shall issue" in 2001. Its still took me about five months after I applied to get my permit.

Hang in there, and always remember those that came before you who made it possible.

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