C&R License Question


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45shooter
June 15, 2006, 11:08 PM
I have a line on a Colt pistol that I'm going to buy from in state seller. I was told by the seller that this pistol is C&R eligable (a Colt 1908 in 380ACP). I don't have a C&R license but my neighbor does. Can I have the pistol shipped to my neighbor and then have the neighbor sell it to me? Is this kosher?

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jon1996
June 15, 2006, 11:13 PM
No! That is considered a Straw Purchase, In which your neighbor knows that he is gonna buy it with your money or his then sell it to you. He could possibly lose his license if caught. Hope that helped

XavierBreath
June 15, 2006, 11:15 PM
Doing so would place your neighbor's C&R license at risk. The C&R license is a license that allows collectors to ship and receive firearms more freely with out of state transactions. It is not a license to trade as a business. Any selling of the C&R licensee's guns must be done to "enhance" his collection, not to help a neighbor.

For an in state deal, the best solution is to arrange for a face to face transaction if at all possible. That way you get a hands on examination of the gun.

45shooter
June 15, 2006, 11:17 PM
Jon,

Thank you for your reply.

How is this different than going to FFL and doing same?
I can go to a FFL and give him my money and then he can sell it to me when it comes in. IS C&R only for personal purchase?

BTW. I didn't ask my neighbor yet as its too late to go over there.

Telperion
June 15, 2006, 11:23 PM
To add to what XB said, at some level it becomes a question of intent. At any time, a C&R can legally sell off any part or all of his collection to an in-state nonlicensed buyer, but dealing in firearms is prohibited. Of course, you've removed any question of intent by posting yours on a public forum ...

45shooter
June 15, 2006, 11:27 PM
I have no intention of asking my neighbor to do this for me if this was not legal. I thought there may be a "catch" so I posted the question here.

Hkmp5sd
June 15, 2006, 11:32 PM
IS C&R only for personal purchase?


Yup. A C&R licensee can buy only to enhance his collection. He can in no way act as a firearm dealer. There is even a grey area in how many firearms a C&R can sell before ATF busts him for dealing without a license.

AmbulanceDriver
June 16, 2006, 04:04 AM
To add to what has been said, the C&R license gives one a "collector" status. In order to do an FFL transfer, your neighbor would have to have a dealer's license (FFL01). The firearms purchased are for a licensee's collection, NOT for resale or transfer, however a licensed collector is able to sell a portion or all of his collection, given that he is not earning a significant portion of his income from a business of purchasing, selling, or trading firearms. (Now if that ain't vague, I dunno what is, but it's going from memory of the ATF's C&R regs) For the verbatim version, I recommend going to the ATFs website (www.atf.gov)

hksw
June 16, 2006, 12:09 PM
I have no intention of asking my neighbor to do this for me if this was not legal. I thought there may be a "catch" so I posted the question here.

You were correct to do so. As noted by others, it would be both a straw deal and breaking the C&R rules.

A C&R does not give a person the approval to deal in firearms, which would be the case if your neighbor did purchase the gun with the intent to re-sell. I bet, however, that your neighbor already knows full well the do's and don't's of his license.

You could prevent similar situations in the future by getting a C&R license yourself.

mrmeval
June 16, 2006, 02:13 PM
I would suspect they ATF would get upset. You're not technically engaged in business or even a business transaction, but I doubt that excuse would fly. It also could be considered a strawman purchase which is viciously prosecuted. The best thing to do is harrass, er ask the ATF this question by letter and frame their response letter if they say it's ok. :) Of course send out copies of the response no matter what it is.

He could face revocation of his license and/or jail time if they go for a worse charge and all his guns bought on the C&R would probably be forfeit. He and you could get a felony at the state or federal level or both. :fire:

Find a local 01 FFL and have the gun sent to them, then go do the paperwork to transfer it to you and everyone will be happy. After paying the transfer fee you will see why an 03 C&R-FFL is a bargain. :) Plus the savings at vendors can be substantial!

There are quite a few FFLs here on THR that do inexpensive transfers, ask if there is one in your area. One from here would be your best deal baring getting the 03 C&R-FFL.

Your friend should have a pile of books about 3 inches thick with all the regulations, laws, et al that were current when they got their license. It will take about a week to go through them.

C&R License Question
I have a line on a Colt pistol that I'm going to buy from in state seller. I was told by the seller that this pistol is C&R eligable (a Colt 1908 in 380ACP). I don't have a C&R license but my neighbor does. Can I have the pistol shipped to my neighbor and then have the neighbor sell it to me? Is this kosher?

eastwood44mag
June 16, 2006, 03:52 PM
A C&R license is $30. Get one, save $20 on the transfer, and make up the difference from MidwayUSA/Brownells--the savings add up REAL fast.

leadcounsel
June 16, 2006, 07:55 PM
Absolutely NOT!

Admittedly it's vague but I wouldn't do it. Just have it sent to a dealer and pay the fee and get your own CR license.

I just researched this and here is some information:

Go here for an interesting Q&A posed to the BATF on the vaguness of the law. http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/howtogetyourcurionrelicffl03/index.asp

2/16/05
Q: Let's say I do not have a license, but my friend does. I own a C&R eligible weapon. I want to sell it in an online auction. Can I have my friend with his C&R license handle the transaction of selling it to another C&R licensee at the end of the auction? Do I have to sell it first to my friend so that it becomes part of his collection before he can dispose of it?

A: An unlicensed person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her state, if the buyer is not prohibited by law from receiving or possessing a firearm, or to a licensee in any state. A firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3)and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 178.29]

Under the Gun Control Act (GCA) an unlicensed person may only buy a firearm within the person's own state, except that he or she may buy a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any state, provided the sale complies with state laws applicable in the state of sale and the state where the purchaser resides. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 178.29]

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]

Q: A friend's dad has a couple of C&R rifles and wants to give them to his son. The dad is in Montana and the son is in Virginia. I have a C&R, can I act as a go between, having the father ship the rifles to me and then I give them to the son? Or can the dad just ship them directly to the son without any paperwork/licenses, or does he have to go through an 01 licensee?

A: A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her state, if the buyer is not prohibited by law from receiving or possessing a firearm, or to a licensee in any state. A firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector. [18 U.S.C 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 178.29]

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. [18 U.S.C 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 178.29]

The transaction must go through a licensed dealer in his son's State. You are not a dealer and therefore should not get involved.

kfranz
June 16, 2006, 08:05 PM
I would suspect they ATF would get upset

I doubt they'd ever know. It's not like ATF is watching every(or any for that matter) transaction every C&R holder engages in.

From what I've read, as a CR collector, is that the collector cannot make a profitable business from having the license

Your understanding is incorrect. You may not "engage in the business". No mention of profit.

Hkmp5sd
June 16, 2006, 08:12 PM
I don't know that "receiving" a firearm is "dealing" in firearms. It's very vague. I would argue that "receiving" it for a neighbor is not dealing since there is no money changing hands.


This is wrong for several reasons. First, the 45shooter is buying from an "in state seller." If the seller is not a FFL, he can ship the gun directly to 45shooter. No FFL required.

Second, if the seller is a FFL, by shipping the gun to a C&R and transferring the gun to 45shooter, they are bypassing the NCIS checks/4473 forms and any waiting periods. This violates federal law.

Finally, handling the transaction brings the C&R into the realm of dealer activities, even if he makes no profit. This also violates federal law.

(d) The collector license provided by this part shall apply only to transactions related to a collector's activity in acquiring, holding or disposing of curios and relics. A collector's license does not authorize the collector to engage in a business required to be licensed under the Act or this part. Therefore, if the acquisitions and dispositions of curios and relics by a collector bring the collector within the definition of a manufacturer, importer, or dealer under this part, he shall qualify as such. (See also 178.93 of this part.)

leadcounsel
June 16, 2006, 10:00 PM
I think the BATF can inspect your bound book at any time, and a copy of the bound book is required to be submitted with each renewal of your license.

Technosavant
June 16, 2006, 10:09 PM
leadcounsel, for the 03 FFL (C&R), while they can examine your bound book at any time, they do have to make an appointment, and it can be at your listed address or at their office. You do NOT have to send in a copy of your bound book when you renew.

I have a C&R, and when I moved, no such copy was required- just a change of address form and a copy sent to my local CLEO.

I would NOT use my C&R for a transfer as described. While I doubt the BATF will ever ask to see my records, such a transaction (receiving a firearm and then immediately logging it out to a neighbor, especially without some other entry showing I was interested in getting a similar firearm). That would be a little obvious about "engaging in the business."

kfranz
June 16, 2006, 10:44 PM
A C&R licensee NEVER has to turn in a bound book. leadcounsel, please endeavor to be correct with your information. Not knowing is fine, but not knowing and talking like you do isn't so fine.

EOD Guy
June 17, 2006, 10:51 AM
I think the BATF can inspect your bound book at any time, and a copy of the bound book is required to be submitted with each renewal of your license.

BATF can inspect you bound book AND the firearms listed in the book once a year. If they are pursuing an criminal investigation, there is no limit.

C&R FFLs do not maintain business records so there is no requirement to send your bound book anywhere.

For those who would ask that the inspection be performed at the local BATF office, remember that they can require you to bring the firearms to the office also.

eastwood44mag
June 17, 2006, 12:31 PM
How would you bring in your collection for inspection w/o getting felonies left and right (I'm a newbie and don't know the answer)?

Thanks.

leadcounsel
June 17, 2006, 04:43 PM
KFRANZ:
A C&R licensee NEVER has to turn in a bound book. leadcounsel, please endeavor to be correct with your information. Not knowing is fine, but not knowing and talking like you do isn't so fine.

I think you ought NOT to take such a tone because YOU end up looking rather foolish when YOU ARE WRONG.

Please see the following URL for clarification on the position of the BATF:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/cnrfaq/index3.asp

Jan. 2006

Q: Is there a new requirement on a C&R license renewal form to list the number of C&R weapons that were purchased and disposed of during the last 3 years?

A: Yes, this is required.

Appology accepted in advance :evil:

Technosavant
June 17, 2006, 04:52 PM
leadcounsel, don't get TOO smug. You aren't correct either.

That simply says you must report a NUMBER of C&R firearms acquired/disposed of (for example, say, 3). You do NOT need to send a copy of the bound book, which lists details on ALL C&R firearms in the collection or formerly part of the collection. They only need to know a number of guns that you bought or sold, not that you purchased an SKS, ser. no: XXXXXX or the like.

My guess is that they will look at that number and decide if they want to make an appointment to look over your book.

A number is a little different than a full copy of a bound book.

leadcounsel
June 17, 2006, 05:00 PM
Technosavant,

You're splitting hairs here... practically speaking you're going to be giving them a record of buys/sells for the prior 3 years (e.g. each time you renew your 3 year license, they want to see your activities for the prior 3 years.). So, maybe you won't give them an exact copy of your bound book, but the practical difference is nil. They are going to see what you are buying and disposing of every time you renew, just like I said in my prior response.

Technosavant
June 17, 2006, 05:11 PM
No, they ask for a number, not specific details (just as per the website you yourself referenced). That is, t'were I in need to renew my C&R, I would tell them that I had purchased TWO firearms. Bit of a difference between that and telling them the make, model, and serial numbers of each one.

For clarification, from the ATF's website itself, a sample photo of the back of the renewal form (the same one is used by 01 and 03 FFLs (just as with forms to amend the license), so some items do not apply.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nlc/form02.htm

Might I draw your attention to, in the middle of the page, question 13, specifically subquestions (b) and (c). They ask for a number, not a make/model/ser. # breakdown.

If that's a copy of your bound book, then your bound book is not in compliance with the law. If they want to see a copy, then that has to be the WORST bureacratese I have ever seen in my life. They want a number of how many you bought and how many you sold. That's it. If they want to see more than that, rest assured that a local ATF agent will be contacting you.

This isn't splitting hairs. It is a rather significant difference.

EOD Guy
June 17, 2006, 08:57 PM
Deleted because I allowed a button to be pushed and lashed out with a personal attack.

My appologies.:o

XavierBreath
June 18, 2006, 12:09 PM
Gentlemen,
Lets cool it. I think 45shooter's question has been answered.

I do not have a C&R and I don't know the minutia of the C&R regs, but I can see when a thread starts down the wrong path. This one can stay open for further clarification as long as no personal attacks are made.

Some helpful links:

ATF's C&R FAQ (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#g)

Updates (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm)

kfranz
June 18, 2006, 01:44 PM
leadcounsel, There was no tone intended in my post, merely a statement that you had a number of factual inaccuracies and my opinion that ignorance and written ignorance expressed as factual are two different things.

45shooter, you have been given considerable sound technical advice, but I can't believe I forgot to throw in my usual line...

Get the C&R. Apply today. If not today, then tomorrow. For sure by Friday. Forget the fact that it is the most expensive $30 you'll ever spend....:)

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