Effectiveness of Russian rounds


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eastwood44mag
June 16, 2006, 04:48 PM
7.62x25 (.30 Tokarev)

7.62x38 (Nagant revolvers)


The guys at the shop said the second is horribly underpowered as a defensive round. I've not heard much about the other.

So, are they substantial for stopping power, penetration, etc? Thanks.

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Cosmoline
June 16, 2006, 04:52 PM
The Tok's are pretty hot, but use a small bullet. I suspect they'd do as well as a 9x19 with the right bullet.

The x38 is indeed quite weak, but you can load those revolvers with .32 H&R Mags for more power.

eastwood44mag
June 16, 2006, 04:54 PM
Is the .32 H&R Magnum interchangeable, or would I need a conversion cylinder? If the latter, where would I get one? Thanks.

gopguy
June 16, 2006, 06:26 PM
I think getting a conversion cylinder for a Nagant Revolver in .32 H&R Mag would be more trouble than it is worth. There are some conversion cylinders out there for them in .32 auto. However I don't think the Tokarev is a good candidate for CCW or defense, the Nagant with that heavy DA trigger pull is also not ideal for defense or CCW. I would really step up to a more modern design at least .38 special in a revolver and 9mm para in a pistol.

MrBigStuff
June 19, 2006, 08:02 PM
To answer the question the 7.62x25 is much more powerful in terms of "energy". It's a uniqiue ( for a handgun anyway) "bottle-necked" cartridge ( like a rifle cartridge) and bullets weighing 85-95 grains usually exit a CZ-52 between 1500-1600 Feet per second. Not to shabby; offering a .380 ACP weighing projectile at several hundred feet per second faster than the speed of sound.

The Nagant round ( 7.62x38) is comparable in "energy" to a standard pressure .38 special ( from a snub nosed revolver). Fiocci has a load which sends a 98 grain projectile a little over 1000 feet per second.

On paper, both should work with the 7.62x25 being considerable more powerful. The question you might want to ask "is the gun chambering these calibers reliable?". Since both are chambered in primarily older firearms. Also as with any caliber and gun, of course, you have to be able to put the bullets where they need to go:D .

RyanM
June 19, 2006, 08:07 PM
You forgot the .44 Russian, ancestor to the .44 SPL and .44 magnum.

Cosmoline
June 19, 2006, 10:00 PM
I've owned a few Nagants and never had problems firing .32 H&R's or others from that family of cartridges in them. But some have reported extraction difficulty. The actual Nagant ammo includes a unique gas sealing design but is still pretty weak and is *VERY* expensive. The Ivan Revolvers are designed for shooting conscripts in the back of the head, not for close combat. The older .44 Russians were vastly superior as man stoppers.

RON in PA
June 20, 2006, 05:15 PM
Remember that these pistols were meant to shoot kneeling "enemies of the state" in the back of the head. For this purpose they are excellent.

cookekdjr
June 20, 2006, 05:30 PM
7.62x25 (.30 Tokarev)

Seen pics where this round has penetrated steel plates. The S&B rounds will defeat many bullet-resistant vests. A deputy friend of mine set his county-issue vest on a chair outside and shot it with his CZ-52.
In his words, the bullet "zipped through my vest like it was butter".
Might be a good car gun in areas where carjackers are known to wear body armor.
Be warned: these guns are really loud.
Now back to trial prep...

Stainz
June 20, 2006, 05:59 PM
.32 S&W/S&WL/H&RM rounds will fit, after a fashion, in an 1895 Nagant chamber... and even fire. Those cases are straight walled, while the Nagant chamber is tapered - a la the M1 Carbine. As they are all woefully short, they won't bridge the inverted b/c gap, closed by trigger pull, to effect a gas seal. Their cases will swell - the thin Magtech 98gr LRN .32 S&WL's I have shot have often even split - making extraction nearly as difficult as the original style ammo's spent cases (It's thin mouths swell.), thus the SA-style ejector rod. The only .32 H&RM ammo I have tried, the hot - and nasty - GA Arms 100gr JHP variant, is dangerous in this gun, as who knows what it ejects past that inverted b/c gap - it stings! Always wear good protective eyewear with this revolver. BTW, I have chrono-ed those rounds at 1117 & 1156 fps (Two different batches!) from a 4.6" Ruger SSM - with a b/c gap, too. That works out to 276-298 ft-lb - up in .38 Special +P area.

Reportedly, the combat round was ~100gr - at 1,000 fps - near that 'hot' .32 H&RM round - and certainly hotter than the then soon to be released (1898) S&W .38 Special. The Nagant has a lanyard loop - and often comes delivered with a lanyard - for a good reason: The Czar's calvary loved it! It hung on until the fifties - and probably, as a type, has more bodies behind it than any other revolver - probably millions of poor folks. Sure, officers carried them - and kept Ivan moving forward in the great Patriotic War, lest they become martyrs. Stalin no doubt used them to 'thin the hierarchy'. But - millions were carried into battle.

It is a real neat piece of Victorian engineering - held together by one screw - which becomes indispensible in it's further dissassembly. Find the 1895 Nagant forum at gunboards.com for more info. If you get one - and clean and lube it, you will have a great sample, indeed, if the SA & DA pull gets down near twenty pounds. Still, a lot of fun/history for a C-note or so - and usually with a holster, cleaning rod, screwdriver, and, that all-important lanyard!

Stainz

PS The .44 Russian was developed by S&W, based on their .44 American round, from 1869-71, in response to a large order by the Russians for a top-break .44-ish caliber revolver. The original round was a 246gr LRN over 24gr fff bp, and represented the first mass produced centerfire revolver round. The .440" diameter American bullet had a .429" step to fit inside the .44" case - the Russians wanted no step, thus the .429" caliber of .44 Russian-Special-Magnum... not .44 at all! The bad guys loved the .44 Russian S&W's - they reloaded much faster than a SAA - and you were just as dead, if hit by one as a .45 Colt round.

Risasi
June 20, 2006, 07:10 PM
7.62x25 (.30 Tokarev)

Seen pics where this round has penetrated steel plates. The S&B rounds will defeat many bullet-resistant vests. A deputy friend of mine set his county-issue vest on a chair outside and shot it with his CZ-52.
In his words, the bullet "zipped through my vest like it was butter".
Might be a good car gun in areas where carjackers are known to wear body armor.
Be warned: these guns are really loud.
Now back to trial prep...

Yes, it's all true.

Shh...

Also one must be careful about the 7.62x25 load one uses. Some of these were loaded hot for use in the PPSH, these were submachinegun rounds. Not really made for pistols.

However the CZ-52 uses a rolling block design, similar to an HK. Some guys have handloaded somewhere in the vicinity of 2000 fps. Not for the faint of heart. But might make a good AP Madmax round, if despotism is in full swing and you have hardened targets running around. But hardly useful for day to day activities.

R127
June 21, 2006, 08:57 PM
Penetration and shot placement are of prime importance in a defensive round, 7.62x25 has plenty of accuracy and penetration to spare. Some folks feel that is a bad thing, over penetration, but that depends on the bullet design. My CZ-52 is plenty reliable, it even has a functioning decocker and a sweet trigger.

It's too bad about the Russians. There are bad examples of every kind of person on the Earth, but I can honestly say I've never personally met a Russian who was anything less than friendly and a great person to be around. Unfortunately they seem to get stuck with some of the worst "leaders" you could ask for and have the attendant spotted history.

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