Civil War over illegal aliens?


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BFWE
June 17, 2006, 01:18 PM
"Civil War" is the proper designation for what will probably develop concerning illegal aliens. No one is saying it, but I believe we are all thinking it. Maybe this is not the proper place to put this comment... but here it goes.

This is what I see developing:

First -- the illegal stream will continue to grow and become even more arrogant and bold. Fence cutting is fairly mild but significant.

Second -- the US Federal government will continue to do little or nothing. Nothing except interfere with people living in the affected areas from dealing with the situation.

Third -- as the situation deteriorates for US citizens, these same citizens will begin taking matters into the own hands... vigilantism (not a dirty word despite the PC crowd's spin.) This has already started with the activities of groups like the Minute Men but will relatively quickly move towards armed encounters and develop into open warfare as both the criminal organizations and the illegal aliens become open combatants.

Fourth -- the US Fed's will become involved and work closely with the Mexican gov "authorities" to "squelch violence along the border". What they will actually do is pursue and persecute the US patriots that are by then engaged in low intensity combat against the invading Mexicans.

My crystal ball gets a little foggy at this point... what do you think?

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Biker
June 17, 2006, 01:22 PM
Well, many of us are already using the soap box. Come November it'll be the ballot box. After that, well, let's hope there is no 'after that'.

Biker

Sindawe
June 17, 2006, 01:26 PM
In the right place now. Nevermind. :D

BFWE
June 17, 2006, 01:29 PM
I sincerly hope you are right and that it will be decided at the ballot box in favor or maintain national soverignty.

Larry Ashcraft
June 17, 2006, 01:31 PM
I'm gonna move this over to L&P, which may be a mean thing to do to the mods over there.

longeyes
June 17, 2006, 01:37 PM
I think Biker laid it out. In a word, ballots. The American people are waking up. Now the question is whether the politicians can also. This is really about whether we still live in a nation under the rule of law and representative government, and we will have our answer to that pretty soon.

Byron Quick
June 17, 2006, 01:41 PM
I think that's a real stretch. At best. Much more likely is the border state government becoming proactive as the feds fail to do anything effective. Then the feds, faced with the prospect of having their noses rubbed in their ineffectiveness, will finally start doing something which should have been done years ago.

If there weren't state governments you might have something. If all the border state governments were such as California's you might have something. However, the other states bordering Mexico are capable of effective action once they become convinced they can't depend on someone else to do it.


You know something that's strange? The people I know living right on the border are nowhere near as uptight about the issue as folks here. In fact, I've heard more complaints in Brewster County, Texas about Americans no longer being allowed to cross the Rio Grande at will instead of driving at least 80 miles to the Ojinaga-Presidio crossing. By the Border Patrol. 10K fine.

el44vaquero
June 17, 2006, 01:41 PM
Civil War? The south with rise again! oops! wrong thread. :neener:

Biker
June 17, 2006, 01:44 PM
Byron...

Many folks not in the border states see what's happening there and want it to stop right *there*. Once it's on your doorstep, it ain't going away.

Biker

MechAg94
June 17, 2006, 01:44 PM
But if we fix the problem then they can't have their North American Union!

longeyes
June 17, 2006, 01:56 PM
You know something that's strange? The people I know living right on the border are nowhere near as uptight about the issue as folks here. In fact, I've heard more complaints in Brewster County, Texas about Americans no longer being allowed to cross the Rio Grande at will instead of driving at least 80 miles to the Ojinaga-Presidio crossing. By the Border Patrol. 10K fine.

I don't know what you mean by "living right on the border." Would Los Angeles qualify? This issue is not about border ranches. It is about the $3 billion a year that the LAUSD spends on "education," mostly for kids who shouldn't be in the USA to begin with. It is about the estimated $5B to $10B a year in public service costs California lays out to be "welcoming." It is about watching the world's 8th largest economy--that's California--slowly but surely turning into Mexico (perhaps you're aware of our debt problems and how we've gone from being leaders in just about everything to near the bottom?)

If you are ready to write off California, okay. I am not. And don't think that the situation in the other SW states will be much different once the voting demographics are "adjusted."

Is civil war, in some form, a possibility? You bet it is. And it will become more and more a possibility as we, in fact, tighten the screws and try to rectify the problem. The Mexicans who are here don't want to go back and won't go back easily. Hey, they have a President telling them that "roots" count, even if those roots are illegal roots. One of these days the gringos may decide not to pay the taxes required to keep the game going--and then?

Byron Quick
June 17, 2006, 02:02 PM
Many folks not in the border states see what's happening there and want it to stop right *there*. Once it's on your doorstep, it ain't going away.

Biker,

I simply find it peculiar that people who don't live on the border and have never even spent one day close to the border get all hot and bothered about this while people who live there are not all hot and bothered.

Art here lives between a Border Patrol checkpoint and the border. I wouldn't characterize him as being totally unconcerned with the issue but it certainly doesn't have the grip on him it does on some who are gazing at film at 11. Art isn't seeing what is happening on the TV. He's been watching it on a daily basis with his own eyes for over thirty years.

So the people who are watching from afar on the TV have a better sense of what's happening than the people who live there?

Don't get me wrong. I think there's a problem that needs to be effectively addressed. It just strikes me as darned ironic to have folks who have never been to the border jumping up and down while the border residents are saying,"Darn, we have to drive 80 miles to cross at Ojinaga and then 80 miles back on the other side, to get to a Mexican village we can see from our porch."

longeyes
June 17, 2006, 02:06 PM
So the people who are watching from afar on the TV have a better sense of what's happening than the people who live there?

In a word: YES.

Because illegal immigration is not a border problem. It hasn't been a border problem for 20 years or more. What happens right along the border is collateral damage. Illegal aliens are now everywhere in America, and in the concentrated pockets of certain areas they have become a serious problem that frankly endangers everything about America.

As for using your eyes, it's just possible that someone living in L.A. knows a bit more about the full-blown realities of illegal immigration than someone in a small town in the SE or Texas, yeah.

Tropical Z
June 17, 2006, 02:42 PM
I believe that the situation with Mexico will lead to some kind of war somewhere on the southern border.Who knows how it will start or who will be fighting.Americans cannot afford to let this intolerable situation go on forever.:banghead:

1 old 0311
June 17, 2006, 02:52 PM
Ballot box? GET REAL KIDS! We are about this [ ] close from having the next President turn our rights over to the U.N. A few more votes for Kerry, and it would be happening NOW!

Kevin

TC-TX
June 17, 2006, 03:05 PM
Kevin Quinlan:

Ballot box? GET REAL KIDS! We are about this [ ] close from having the next President turn our rights over to the U.N. A few more votes for Kerry, and it would be happening NOW!

+1... Pleasantly Stated Kevin...

Lone_Gunman
June 17, 2006, 03:11 PM
I think it is silly to think that illegal immigration is a problem only at the border.

I don't remember how many illegals are in Georgia, but I know we are in the top 10 states, and I think we were about number 5. We are a long way from the Mexican border.

I was up all night operating on an apparrent illegal alien who was stabbed in the belly. He's now in the ICU. I suspect he will live, but will be in the hospital about 2 weeks, and by the time he leaves, will have about a $75,000 hospital bill.

Anybody want to take a guess who's gonna pay for it?

Don't tell me illegal immigration is just a border problem.

fourays2
June 17, 2006, 03:18 PM
I don't know what you guys are complaining about president bush assures us they are just hard working people doing the jobs that Americans are too lazy to do for themselves. why would he lie to us?:rolleyes:

Biker
June 17, 2006, 04:09 PM
Byron...

I became truly aware of the problem six years ago when I rode down to San Diego to see some family.The further south I got, the more I felt like I was in a foreign country. There were C-Stores that wouldn't serve me because I didn't speak spanish. I saw bumper stickers reading "F*** You. This is still Mexico".
I saw Mexican flags all over which outnumbered American flags.
I was nearly charged with a hate crime outside of bar in Chula Vista for defending my property (my Harley) from a couple of guys who didn't speak English.

Since then, I've seen the disease creeping into Idaho, particularly in the western portion and it's coming *my* way. I don't like it. I will fight it.

Biker

c_yeager
June 17, 2006, 04:13 PM
I think that some people might be suprised by how few others actually care all that much one way or the other. Sure, fight a civil war, just remember that when its just you and a couple of your buddies what you have isnt a war, its a riot at best.

Biker
June 17, 2006, 04:17 PM
Or the first of some opening skirmishes.

Biker

Fletchette
June 17, 2006, 04:25 PM
I think that some people might be suprised by how few others actually care all that much one way or the other. Sure, fight a civil war, just remember that when its just you and a couple of your buddies what you have isnt a war, its a riot at best.

Most civil wars throughout history only have a small percentage of the population doing the fighting. Most people just sit on their butts. That's the way it is.

meef
June 17, 2006, 04:25 PM
Since then, I've seen the disease creeping into Idaho, particularly in the western portion and it's coming *my* way. I don't like it. I will fight it.
Disease is an apt description, Biker. Cancer would be very precise. Growths concentrating in various areas of the body (country) and spreading. Virulent and potentially deadly.

Just an observation.

:cuss:

Lone_Gunman
June 17, 2006, 05:05 PM
Here is a scenario more likely than civil war:

1. Illegal immigration continues to worsen.

2. Armed confrontation develops between illegals and US citizens

3. Federal troops or agents are sent to restore order

4. The troops or agents murder US citizens, and restore order. Some snipers may even be able to demonstrate their marksmanship by shooting mothers holding babies.

5. The federal government then villifies the people they killed as cultists, child molesters, militia members, and gun fanatics.

6. Joe Sixpack will watch this on CNN, thank the government for killing these horrible citizens, then flip back over to ESPN, and tune the world out again.

BB62
June 17, 2006, 05:30 PM
Quote:
So the people who are watching from afar on the TV have a better sense of what's happening than the people who live there?


In a word: YES.

Because illegal immigration is not a border problem. It hasn't been a border problem for 20 years or more. What happens right along the border is collateral damage. Illegal aliens are now everywhere in America, and in the concentrated pockets of certain areas they have become a serious problem that frankly endangers everything about America.

As for using your eyes, it's just possible that someone living in L.A. knows a bit more about the full-blown realities of illegal immigration than someone in a small town in the SE or Texas, yeah.

Your post is the best and most succinct answer I could have constructed, given the question posed.

I agree 1000%. One might see the small leak coming through the dike, and not have the distance/overview to see the large lake being formed because of it.

In this instance, both parties will see and experience different things - the trees and the forest.

Thanks for your "spot on" post.


BB62

slzy
June 17, 2006, 05:37 PM
i think some people would be surprized how many people are furious over the illegal alien situation.

Cosmoline
June 17, 2006, 05:44 PM
When illegal crossings were just a border issue, it wasn't much of a problem. Back in the old days, Mexicans and US citizens crossed back and forth all the time at the border. There were families with branches on both sides, and people knew each other. This was hardly a major problem, though it may have been technically illegal.

What we have now has nothing to do with the friendly old border crossings to steal each other's cows or marry each other. This is a full-scale invasion of tens of millions of people--MOST OF WHOM AREN'T EVEN FROM THE BORDER REGION. These are not Mexicans who've lived on the border for generations and just go back and forth. These are southern Mexicans and Central Americans who have no ties to the border region or the US. They're true aliens, and they penetrate deep into the states to work illegally and often to pursue a life of crime. They're bad medicine. Many of those sleepy little pueblos on the border have become squalid camps with hundreds of thousands of residents, all pushing to get into the US. Mexico doesn't want them, and we're crazy to keep taking them.

Biker
June 17, 2006, 05:56 PM
I have a "pen pal" as they used to be known as in the old days, deep in the heart of Mexico. We sometimes discuss the immigration problem and he, a Mexican, told me, and I quote; "America is getting the worst of Mexico".

Good for them, bad for us.

Biker

wingman
June 17, 2006, 06:21 PM
America is getting the worst of Mexico".


Your friend is correct I have seen the change in my years on the border.

neoncowboy
June 17, 2006, 06:26 PM
Civil War over illegal aliens?

Who would be the separate factions in this civil war?

I am assuming you are talking about American citizens taking up arms against the illegal alien invaders...but can't really be sure.

How do you recognize an illegal alien invader with enough certainty to shoot one?

people who don't live on the border and have never even spent one day close to the border get all hot and bothered about this

Come hang out in my NE Georgia town for a weekend and see what's to get all hot and bothered over:
My hospital is full of pregnant mexican teenagers having babies...all funded by medicaid. Said hospital has a bunch of job openings...for bilingual health care workers.

Paper is full of arrests for violent crimes comitted by illegal aliens. One recently raped and murdered a 7 year old girl.

My local parks are filled with spanish speakers. To the point that our townfolk (the ones who pay property taxes) can't get in. A guy I know was denied entry to a local park/boat ramp (with his $30K boat he pays taxes on in tow) because it was full...of mexicans, most of whom are illegal entrants.

Not that you ought to have your kid in government schools anyway...but they're packed full of mexicans who demand way more attention than everyone else. I won't send my kid there...but my property taxes just went up to cover the higher BOE budget for next year. Thank you, glad I can help.

Traffic, drivers with no car insurance and just trashy, low rent neighborhoods are WAY up since when I was a kid in this town.

Want a job on a roofing crew for your teenage son this summer? Good luck! If he's able to find one, it'll be for $7/hour and he'll have to be able to speak spanish. Think the labor savings are passed on to the consumer? Nope. But you oughtta see the lakeside mansion a local contractor just built for himself off of one of our busier highways. Guess that cheap mexican labor isn't all bad for everyone.

It's a bummer. My town is wrecked.

The 'migrant workers' haven't been very good for my community at all.

longeyes
June 17, 2006, 11:15 PM
When illegal crossings were just a border issue, it wasn't much of a problem. Back in the old days, Mexicans and US citizens crossed back and forth all the time at the border. There were families with branches on both sides, and people knew each other. This was hardly a major problem, though it may have been technically illegal.

What we have now has nothing to do with the friendly old border crossings to steal each other's cows or marry each other. This is a full-scale invasion of tens of millions of people--MOST OF WHOM AREN'T EVEN FROM THE BORDER REGION. These are not Mexicans who've lived on the border for generations and just go back and forth.

Good post.

This is the way it once was, and, interestingly, it is the way Bush often tries to spin the situation when he's pressing the Sentimental Button on his bubble machine. Of course, what it's really all about is something else. I think that it wasn't "History" that ended when The Berlin Wall came down, it was Politics, only to be replaced by Global Commerce, Big-Scale.

longeyes
June 17, 2006, 11:23 PM
I think that some people might be suprised by how few others actually care all that much one way or the other. Sure, fight a civil war, just remember that when its just you and a couple of your buddies what you have isnt a war, its a riot at best.

A lot of people are fed up. Of course it's the few who do anything, but what's new about that?

I think we try ballots and see what happens. Mass demonstrations by anti-illegal forces are going to happen at some point. I think, frankly, THAT is when the "civil war" will begin, because I believe there are people on the Left who will take advantage of those mass numbers to foment trouble.

Davo
June 17, 2006, 11:42 PM
I met a man today who came here illegally from Mexico in the 1980's. We talked about the situation as it is today. He told me "they should not come, they make it hard to work".
This is a downward spiral I hope never gets that far. I can see skirmishes, and possibly guerilla activity in the near future. I see civil war as a distant and unlikley probability.

DoubleTapDrew
June 18, 2006, 12:07 AM
This seems like a no-win situation. The .gov isn't doing anything about it, and if they ever get around to it, it will only happen when it's too late. If citizens take matters into their own hands they will be labeled terrorists instead of patriots and dealt with swiftly by the .gov because how dare Americans try to defend their sovereignty! Isn't the point of the amendments to allow the citizens to take action when the government won't? The founding fathers would be sick.

Molon Labe
June 18, 2006, 12:16 AM
A novel has been written about it:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1413788890/ref=pd_rvi_gw_1/102-7044692-7767332?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

http://www.awrmthenovel.com/

longeyes
June 18, 2006, 12:17 AM
We're going to find out, it seems, just how much control over .gov Big Corporate really has. I think .gov is going to come under increasing pressure to do something. We know the Bush gang doesn't want to but Bush may be over-reaching. I really don't think Bush understands what he's unleashing here.

shootinstudent
June 18, 2006, 01:14 AM
How do you identify an illegal immigrant with enough certainty to shoot one in a "guerrilla style action"?

Who would guerrillas attack?

Biker
June 18, 2006, 01:22 AM
Shootinstudent...

You can always build a box ya can't get out of. Fact is, when a fight starts, it's not hard to ID the enemy - they're the ones trying to hurt you and yours.

Biker

longeyes
June 18, 2006, 01:42 AM
The upcoming dust-up isn't going to be strictly about Americans versus illegal aliens. Unfortunately, this is also a culture war, and that means that a lot of Mexican-Americans, probably gangbanger types, AND leftwing "gringos" may join the fray. The deal is this: the people who initiate violence will find violence returned in kind.

I really don't expect Americans to start the ugliness. I think it will begin when we begin to tighten the screws on illegal immigration and begin to remove the cookie jar. A lot of illegals, listening to bad advisors, have already convinced themselves that they are "entitled" and have a right to take, by any means possible. That's a recipe for serious problems.

EmGeeGeorge
June 18, 2006, 02:04 AM
Some of you guys are out to lunch...

Biker
June 18, 2006, 02:07 AM
Meaning?

Biker

Diomed
June 18, 2006, 02:15 AM
How do you recognize an illegal alien invader with enough certainty to shoot one?

Well, civil wars do tend to get rather ... messy.

That aside, I don't think this will devolve to a civil war. People don't want to fight. They'll just adapt. The U.S. of 2056 will look very, very different from the U.S. of 1956 or 2006, and it will be fundamentally different in a lot of ways. We'll be poorer, weaker and more crowded.

I'm glad I'll be long gone before then.

ExtremeDooty
June 18, 2006, 02:17 AM
"America is getting the worst of Mexico".

I don't necessarily agree with this. The Mexicans I work with are hard working and reliable. Out of 60 people in the company maybe 10 speak English and only 6 fluently. And yet I am the one with Pimmsleur learn to speak Spanish CD's in my car so I can learn to "communicate better" with my "colleagues". And I just got screamed at by a customer because my field person couldn't vocalize what the customer wanted. He answered "yes" to three different repairs for the same problem.

Anyway, it galls me that I'm the one that has to make the effort to speak spanish, instead of the other way around. Even though they all have adequate papers, you can tell which are illegal by checking their W-4 forms, they all have 7-10 dependents.

And if you think it's just a border problem, just stop in any town along I-70 in Colorado and count the Mexican restaurants. I'll bet they out number all other restaurants 2-1. (please order in spanish)

I think this problem is coming to a head, especially after "day without a mexican" with all the Mexican flags being flown. And frankly I think we missed a golden opportunity to actually round up a few million and deport them.

Okay, Rant over:cuss: :banghead: :cuss:

beerslurpy
June 18, 2006, 03:10 AM
If there is a civil war, I am not even sure who would be on what side, nor what we would fight over. If things were that simple, we could probably just vote on it in the first place.

Anything outrageous enough to get people to fight will be bad enough to get them to vote. Conversely, if people arent even voting over an issue, why should we expect them to pick up guns?

Violence could happen on a small scale, but even this seems doubtful at the moment. The only problem is that most Americans already have jobs, so it isnt like teh illegals currently in the country are stealing their lunch. A big pie feeds many mouths.

crazed_ss
June 18, 2006, 03:34 AM
Meaning?

Meaning you guys sound insane and are blowing things way out of proportion.
I'd like to ask .. in this hypothetical civil war, who are you going to be shooting at?

I'm in San Diego right now man. You want me to go outside and take some pictures for you? There's a bar and club across from my house. They're playing rock music and serving budweisers. The sky isnt falling. Take off your tin foil.

I lived in Chula Vista and I never was a victim of a hate crime committed by illegal Mexicans. NOT ONCE have I ever been unable to conduct business in San Diego County because I didnt know Spanish. Not one single time. This includes shopping and eating in San Ysidro which is litterally a hundred yards from the border. In fact, I never had a problem conducting business in Tijuana/Rosarito withouth Spanish.

longeyes
June 18, 2006, 03:39 AM
It's calm on my block too.

But, with all due respect, you're looking in the rear view mirror. Things are changing. A critical mass has been forming. Look forward five years, what do you see?

crazed_ss
June 18, 2006, 03:50 AM
But, with all due respect, you're looking in the rear view mirror. Things are changing. A critical mass has been forming. Look forward five years, what do you see?

5 years?

I certainly dont see a civil war. I imagine things will be just as they are now.. we'll probably enhance border security somewhat, and some kind of amnesty/guest worker thing will get passed. The illegal immigration problem will not be solved because the root of the problem will still exist.

Everyone who is crying about illegals now seem are just jumping on the bandwagon. This has been a serious problem for years. It goes back decades. Now everyone is flipping out because it's the issue of the day. If terrorists blow something up tommorow, we'll be back to talking about nuking the whole middle east.

gm
June 18, 2006, 12:48 PM
in 5-10 years,the illegal problem will backfire in the faces of the very people that are pushing it.they will push for the same rights as regular homegrown americans are getting in the workplace.in some places Ive heard,its compensation time when an illegal gets fired.they have begun to push americans out of certain jobs and will begin competing against each other for the same job,as more and more are showing up for work in a market that often caters to them.At the same time,healthcare will collapse in areas of greatest concentration due to a now limited budget,state and federally funded programs for the low income families will collapse from the extra burden millions upon millions of new applicants will put on it.violence will be up as a result of all this.people are only going to wait so long after seeing illegals getting more benefits and perks than they are before something has to give.big biz that hires them will become the villian...then the .gov that is mandating or doing nothing to stop it.lastly and eventually, the illegals themselves will be competing against each other for whats not yet dried up... add to all this..during the confusion,a terrorist threat might sneak in or they may be already here and take advantage of the situation..

who knows.the systems broke.the only solutions Ive seen are more spy programs on americans rather than stopping it at the source.civil war? dunno.


just my 1 cent answer.

longeyes
June 18, 2006, 01:19 PM
A "guest worker" program will solve nothing, as it has solved nothing in Europe. The problem is migration--in unacceptable numbers--and lack of cultural assimilation by the newcomers, along with job displacement and a massive drain on public services.

Perhaps the "civil war," in the immediate time ahead, will be just a gradual rise in crime statistics, a growing sense of ethnic unease and resentment, further political alienation, declining public services, and rising taxes. People will realize there's a decline and that it's accelerating, but folks like yourself, crazed, will just see business as usual. You might notice that more and more people are leaving California, taking with them businesses and the tax base.

'Card
June 18, 2006, 01:46 PM
My personal opinion?

I think as more and more Americans get the chance to actually work with the immigrants and be around them, they'll start to realize that the vast majority of them are hard-working, religious, law-abiding, conservative people with family values so strong they make most of us Americans look bad.

It may take awhile, but Americans will eventually wake up to the fact that there's nothing to feel threatened about, and that most of the anti-immigrant hype is based on racism, plain and simple.

5 years ago I felt a lot like most of you guys do. Working with and around a lot of immigrants (both legal and illegal) has really opened my eyes - and it isn't just me. The vast majority of my employees are old, simple, rough-around-the-edges construction guys, and it's been really interesting to see how their attitudes have changed too. Used to be they'd just about throw a fit if I was going to assign someone to their crew who didn't speak good English. Nowadays, that's all they want.

It may take awhile for the change in attitude to filter through to Americans who consider themselves too good to do hard work with their hands, but eventually they'll catch on the way the construction business is. Hard work, a good attitude, loyalty, and a willingness to learn are values Americans can appreciate even if somebody's language skills aren't that great.


Of course, I realize none of this is going to change any of your minds. You need causes to get lathered up about, and this is the latest fad among alarmists, extremists and the 'chicken little' crowd. I wouldn't worry about it too much, though. Next year there will be something else to get worked into a frenzy over.

Husker1911
June 18, 2006, 01:46 PM
Across the midlands, it's happening. The census figures for the 1990s show Nebraska's hispanic population grew 136%. That figure continues to skyrocket in the 21st century.

I've taken part in two peaceful demonstrations here in Omaha, protesting illegal immigration. They took place near the Mexican Consulate, and I proudly waved my American flag. This took place on Omaha's main street, and many cars passing bye would honk and encourage. However, many cars would also wave to us with their middle fingers. And the majority of these folks appeared extremely Caucasian. Evidently they support illegal immigration? I don't get it. Would these same people forgive me for crimes I might have committed?

I can't help believe that those legal American citizens who still support illegal immigration, or want to legalize it or offer amnesty, somehow consider themselves more humanitarian, or seek to distance themselves from right-wing cretins who wave flags. The dumbing of the American population is certainly working in this instance!

wingman
June 18, 2006, 01:55 PM
with family values so strong they make most of us Americans look bad.


This is a myth, I have worked and lived in a large Mexican population for years
and what you say is simply not true, that is not saying either that all are bad.

Of course, I realize none of this is going to change any of your minds.

Your right on that because I see first hand what comes across the border
now vs. 20 years ago..

longeyes
June 18, 2006, 02:02 PM
Omaha? Are you the city that has, what, 28 "Mexican" soccer teams in a local league?

A lot of the people in your All-American city--I've been there, liked it--who are middle-fingering you are probably employing cheap Mexican labor in sweat shops or farm work.

My impression has been that the Midwest, our famed breadbasket, is slowly being Mexicanized as the children of farm owners decide they'd rather be graphic artists in Chicago (before those jobs get outsourced to Indian and China) and newcomers are brought in to first work and then own the land.

Yes, there are cultural problems here, and they aren't just Mexican cultural problems.

Husker1911
June 18, 2006, 02:02 PM
'Card, I doubt very much you find any of us that are against legal immigration, with some controls installed. Do you feel the U.S. should take all those who wish to enter into our fold?

longeyes
June 18, 2006, 02:10 PM
I think as more and more Americans get the chance to actually work with the immigrants and be around them, they'll start to realize that the vast majority of them are hard-working, religious, law-abiding, conservative people with family values so strong they make most of us Americans look bad.

It may take awhile, but Americans will eventually wake up to the fact that there's nothing to feel threatened about, and that most of the anti-immigrant hype is based on racism, plain and simple.

I get it, I get it, not only are the illegal immigrants not a problem, they are in fact better than the people who are here now. Well, I'm sure you will find many sympathetic ears in D.C., where the master plan seems to be to swap out the old population for a newer, younger, more trainable, more docile one that will be willing to scale down their living expectations for another one, two generations while the rich get fabulously richer.

If these people from Mexico were all that you say, why is it that Mexico is where it is today? Something doesn't quite compute there, does it? Who made Mexico but Mexicans? Perhaps it's because you are missing something in your formula of what makes a Good American, as you are missing something in the values you ascribe to the illegal immigrants around you? You've described, in idealistic terms, someone who does as he's told and is thankful for what he gets. Shockingly enough, that was exactly what the people who came here were running away from.

longeyes
June 18, 2006, 02:12 PM
I think as more and more Americans get the chance to actually work with the immigrants and be around them, they'll start to realize that the vast majority of them are hard-working, religious, law-abiding, conservative people with family values so strong they make most of us Americans look bad.

I'm not about to bash Mexican culture--it has its great and not so great points--but that is about as romantic an assessment of our amigos south of the border as I've heard.

wingman
June 18, 2006, 02:13 PM
Perhaps the "civil war," in the immediate time ahead, will be just a gradual rise in crime statistics, a growing sense of ethnic unease and resentment, further political alienation, declining public services, and rising taxes. People will realize there's a decline and that it's accelerating, but folks like yourself, crazed, will just see business as usual. You might notice that more and more people are leaving California, taking with them businesses and the tax base.__________________


I agree this is the direction we are going perhaps not a war but increased violence and it all could have been controlled if we had enforced laws.

Many small border towns that I knew in my youth had a 50/50 ratio of Angelo/Mexican but most of the white population has gone all except small numbers of government employees, the town management is much like Mexico. I believe that is the future for much of the southwest as California.

byf43
June 18, 2006, 02:31 PM
Husker1911 wrote:
'Card, I doubt very much you find any of us that are against legal immigration, with some controls installed.


Agreed. The keyword is LEGAL immigration.


This may NOT be the best example of what's happening, but, it is close to what may happen, if all of this immigration goes, unchecked.
Watch the movie "Red Dawn". I know, it wasn't a very good movie, but, we (as a country) are standing by, watching more and more people 'invade' for the lack of a better term, our country, without proper documentation and without 'checks.'

Scenario: Some of theses illegal aliens could be here for NOT LEGAL reasons. MAYBE they want to do this country (and it's citizens) harm.

YellowLab
June 18, 2006, 02:45 PM
YES! TO the Ballot Boxes!

First we'll make it illegal to enter into the US without papers.

Then we'll make a HUGE gubment agency to police the boarder.. to keep out all the law breakers.

How can this plan possibly fail? I mean don't they know we made it ILLEGAL to cross into our contry without papers?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Until the states call out the Militia/National Guard (if they have any Guardsmen NOT in IRAQ) and treat this as the inivation that it is.... we well get nothing but lip service from pansy polititons that are being paid by big farmers lobbies to NOT stop the flow of cheap labor.

Who's agenda are they gonna take? THe big farmers $$$$$ or our lowly moral stance against law breakers?

'Card
June 18, 2006, 02:46 PM
I have worked and lived in a large Mexican population for years and what you say is simply not true
While I disagree with you, I'm not going to stoop so low as to call you a liar.

What can I tell you? Your direct experience, and my direct experience lead us to two different conclusions.

It's not as if I'm some kind of left-wing hippie here either, you know? I'm about as redneck and hillbilly as you get - but I think that's part of the reason why I like most of these Mexican immigrants. I grew up poor, and I learned that it's not the size of a man's wallet that earns my respect, or the amount of education that he has. People earn my respect with their ability to work hard, and the character of their hearts.

Most of the Mexican immigrants I've met are good people, they're just poor and uneducated. Most of the derogatory comments people make about Mexican immigrants sound exactly to me like the things they've always said about people who were poor and uneducated. "Lazy, dirty, thieves, with no respect for the way things are done". They said that about the Irish, then the Eastern Europeans, then us Hillbillies, then the Okies. It's always somebody.

Notice that I said most Mexican immigrants? I'm not going to try to pretend these people are saints. They have their criminal elements, just like we do. Just like we always have. It just really rubs me the wrong way when people try to pretend they're all bad. That's just as ignorant as I would be if I claimed they were all great.

Do you feel the U.S. should take all those who wish to enter into our fold?
That's the million-dollar question, isn't it?

I think we've got to figure out some way to give poor, honest, hard-working people a way to become US citizens legally. Right now, that simply isn't possible for them, and that's not right.

I think we've also got to figure out some way to improve economic conditions in Mexico so that their entire population isn't desperate to go somewhere else, anywhere else - to find a better life for themselves and their families. Like it or not, Mexico isn't our enemy, and like it or not, they will always be our next door neighbor. As long as things are as bad there as they are now, their people are going to want to come here - and no amount of walls, and no amount of laws are going to stop them. As a father and a provider, I know they wouldn't stop me if I was in their shoes.

I think we've got to acknowledge the fact that we've created this situation ourselves. Our government has gotten addicted to collecting taxes (especially social security) from people who will never claim benefits. Our border security has been a joke for decades. Our culture has developed so that we look down our noses at hard, honest work with our hands. So we've been actively encouraging this problem for years and years, and suddenly we want to point to these people who accepted our invitation and act as if they are felons? That's the worst form of hypocrisy.

I guess what I'm saying is that obviously we need an answer, but I think it's something we can discuss without all the thinly-veiled racism and hatred.

longeyes
June 18, 2006, 02:50 PM
Of course the pay-offs from Big Farm, Big Restaurant, Big Hotel, et al. are minuscule compared to the combined economic clout of the American people. It is, of course, as always, all about the money. If we want to take back our Government we are going to have to amass dollars for political pressure and, better, find a way to get back control of all the monies the Government has put a stranglehold on. There is no better weapon than cutting off the money.

longeyes
June 18, 2006, 03:01 PM
It's not, first, about whether Mexicans are wonderful or less than wonderful, it's about the fact that millions of them are in this country ILLEGALLY. Being of admirable character does not automatically qualify you to become a citizen of the United States of America.

Why is it up to US to find a way to give people around the world access to U.S. citizenship? Why should that be a high priority? We damn well need to be thinking about the life, and the fate, of our own. Enough with the social worker mentality; that's gotten us into huge trouble already and continues to.

And why is it our responsibility to figure out how to improve conditions in Mexico? It's not rocket science to know what needs to be done down there . Let's stand out of the way and let it happen, and not exploit it for our own questionable ends. If we invest in Mexico it should be because it benefits our country first and foremost. Mexico is thinking of Mexico; we need to think of the U.S. I see nothing in any of the proposals to deal with immigration that would encourage greater involvement in Mexico aimed at enriching the average American. It's all about helping Mexico. Sorry, this is a two-way street. And the idea that we have to elevate Mexico because otherwise they will over-run us is just another form of spinelessness, another way of appeasing.

As for Social Security benefits, I think the balance is negative when you factor in all the other social welfare costs attributable to illegal alien presence in the U.S. But don't worry, the D.C. crowd is already trying to figure out how to not only give Mexicans here illegally what they paid in but far, far more besides.

Have Americans forgotten the value of manual labor? Maybe we have, but that doesn't mean we need to import untold millions of manual laborers to be a constant reminder of our blindness.

'Card
June 18, 2006, 03:02 PM
Agreed. The keyword is LEGAL immigration.
I've said this here at least a hundred times, but everyone wants to ignore it and go back to bashing immigrants - so I guess I'll keep trying to get the point across.

Legally immigrating from Mexico isn't possible unless you're rich.

It's not like these people just didn't want to take the time to fill out the paperwork or submit to a background check. It doesn't have anything to do with the amount of time they have to sit on a waiting list. It's not as if they don't want to be here legally - that's pretty much what they fantasize about. Like everything in Mexico, the system is corrupt, and it's inefficient, and it's hideously outdated. Unless you have the money (lots of money) to hire a well-connected attorney who can cut the red tape and then bump you to the front of the 5-year waitng list, it simply will never happen. Period.

So make all the noise you want about "If they were just here legally..." but under the current system - the system we created, that simply isn't within the realm of possibility. You'd be making just about as much sense if you said "I wouldn't have a problem with immigrants if they just had wings and they could fly here."

longeyes
June 18, 2006, 03:05 PM
Legally immigrating from Mexico isn't possible unless you're rich.

So what?

What makes you think that we owe Mexico anything because they happen to be geographically contiguous? If we need more immgrants, why not have a contest, globally, to find the best immigrants anywhere in the world that we can?

There are a lot of Mexicans here already. Give somebody else a chance.

longeyes
June 18, 2006, 03:07 PM
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me - as long as they speak decent English, have a lot of money to spend wading through the corrupt immigration process, and don't look too foreign."

Take note: Emma Lazarus was a well-off New York City woman with a fashionable fascination with Marxist ideas.

Husker1911
June 18, 2006, 03:08 PM
Those mexicans seeking to enter the U.S. illegally should instead be met at the border, handed an inexpensive surplus rifle (Mosin-Nagant comes to mind) and a couple boxes of cartridges. Perhaps they'd be able to enact necessary changes within their own horribly corrupt country.

'Card, have you opened your home to 37 illegals? No? That seems odd............

Cosmoline
June 18, 2006, 03:14 PM
'Card is spewing the accepted White House line. If you protest the tens of millions of illegals, you're a RACIST and you DON'T KNOW HOW TO WORK HARD.

I've worked harder than you can imagine, BOYO, and I've worked alongside Koreans, Mexicans, Vietnamese, Russians, and other immigrants. My own people are immigrants. Nobody is calling for an end to normal immigration. What we're talking about is a mass exodus of a large percentage of the Mexican and Central American underclass into the US.

I'd like to see GW do some of the jobs I've done. What a piece of garbage. I've NEVER hired an illegal to do my work for me. Not even when I was having to sleep in a shed in arctic cold. There's no excuse for doing so. NONE. If you hire illegals to do yard work you are the problem, and you need a swift kick.

As far as these people starving to death in their homelands, that's BRAVO SIERRA. They can afford the thousands and thousands of dollars it takes to buy Coyote escorts. I couldn't!

So save your party line. Nobody is buying it.

Libertyteeth
June 18, 2006, 03:49 PM
A principle reason fed.gov has not wanted to secure the border is that, if they have their way, the border is going to cease to exist.

Bush Administration Quietly Plans NAFTA Super Highway
http://www.rense.com/general72/mex.htm

by Jerome R. Corsi

Posted Jun 12, 2006

Quietly but systematically, the Bush Administration is advancing the plan to
build a huge NAFTA Super Highway, four football-fields-wide, through the heart
of the U.S. along Interstate 35, from the Mexican border at Laredo, Tex., to
the Canadian border north of Duluth, Minn.

Once complete, the new road will allow containers from the Far East to enter
the United States through the Mexican port of Lazaro Cardenas, bypassing the
Longshoreman's Union in the process. The Mexican trucks, without the
involvement of the Teamsters Union, will drive on what will be the nation's most modern
highway straight into the heart of America. The Mexican trucks will cross
border in FAST lanes, checked only electronically by the new "SENTRI" system.
The first customs stop will be a Mexican customs office in Kansas City, their
new Smart Port complex, a facility being built for Mexico at a cost of $3
million to the U.S. taxpayers in Kansas City.

As incredible as this plan may seem to some readers, the first Trans-Texas
Corridor segment of the NAFTA Super Highway is ready to begin construction next
year. Various U.S. government agencies, dozens of state agencies, and scores
of private NGOs (non-governmental organizations) have been working behind the
scenes to create the NAFTA Super Highway, despite the lack of comment on the
plan by President Bush. The American public is largely asleep to this key piece
of the coming "North American Union" that government planners in the new
trilateral region of United States, Canada and Mexico are about to drive into
reality. ...

slzy
June 18, 2006, 04:08 PM
considering the war on drugs,you would have thought the border would have been locked down during the nixon administration. then,on 912 you surely would have thought the border would have been closed. makes me wonder about commitment. and speaking of commitment,i saw a tabloid at the grocery store that said George and Laura were contemplating divorce. usually i don't give the tabs much credence,but Laura probably feels the same as most everybody else on the guest worker program,so i am surprized she is'nt already gone.

baz
June 18, 2006, 04:52 PM
It's not, first, about whether Mexicans are wonderful or less than wonderful, it's about the fact that millions of them are in this country ILLEGALLY. Being of admirable character does not automatically qualify you to become a citizen of the United States of America.


+1

What it's really about is a government that as of right now is (a) condoning illegal conduct, and (b) dissing off a majority of the citizens of this country in the process. In other words, the problem is not whether or not Mexicans are hard working folk with strong family values.

The problem is the U.S. government.

Husker1911
June 18, 2006, 04:59 PM
Our kind of voter made their voices abundently clear in the 1994 elections, when we threw the bums who enacted the phoney-baloney Assault Weapons ban out of office. I'm of the opinion that's the type of voter turnout and result that will be highly evident after the next, and subsequent, elections.

My senator was a sponsor of the Senate's latest amnesty proposal. Oh, he shudders to think any would dare refer to it as amnesty! But he is one Republican senator that shall never receive another vote from this constituent.

zoom6zoom
June 18, 2006, 05:25 PM
I think we try ballots and see what happens.

That's a good idea. Which ultimately can be used against us, as many lib jurisdictions are attempting to give illegals the right to vote. Either openly by legistlation, or by not requiring to see ID when registering or at the polling places.

leadcounsel
June 18, 2006, 05:32 PM
We are not a country of action anymore.... we just sit back and let someone else do it.

I applaud the minutemen, but I haven't given up MY life to go help so I'm equally guilty.

We have become so "nanny-fied" by the various governments to whom we pay taxes that we can't even rally to accomplish closing the borders! A sad state, really.

shootinstudent
June 18, 2006, 06:38 PM
I don't understand the attacks on 'Card here.

If he values hard, physical labor and good attitudes more than money, why is it just "the accepted white house line" for him to say our immigration policy should reflect that?

'Card, I think I see your point and I agree to some extent. If we're a country that respects honesty and hard work more than money and an expensive education, we ought to show that respect by allowing exactly those kinds of immigrants: hard working, honest ones...even if they don't have a million dollars or some fancy sunglasses to bring with them.

Lone_Gunman
June 18, 2006, 06:59 PM
'Card sez:5 years ago I felt a lot like most of you guys do. Working with and around a lot of immigrants (both legal and illegal) has really opened my eyes - and it isn't just me. The vast majority of my employees are old, simple, rough-around-the-edges construction guys, and it's been really interesting to see how their attitudes have changed too. Used to be they'd just about throw a fit if I was going to assign someone to their crew who didn't speak good English. Nowadays, that's all they want.


Is there any chance that your opinion of them might be possibly influenced by the fact that you can hire them for less, expect more work for them, and ergo increase your own profits?

The Almighty Dollar has a way of changing people's opinion about moral and legal issues, 'Card.

Thats basically why rich people and political elites are in favor of unlimited illegal immigration, though they claim they are just doing it to give hard working moms and dads a fair shake at the American Dream.

They also claim that any opposition to unfettered immigration is based on racism. I might point out that you said that very thing as well.

Husker1911
June 18, 2006, 07:12 PM
Shootinstudent, just how many hard working illegal immigrants are you willing to let sneak in? Same question to you: Are you willing to put 37 illegals up in your house? Where does it end? There are MILLIONS of illegal immigrants in this country!

Biker
June 18, 2006, 07:16 PM
Yup, their Norte American Dream becomes *our* American nightmare. Calling All Ostritches! Ya know which end is up in the air?

Just because you don't see a problem, don't mean that it doesn't exist.
The CIS did a study a few years back that indicated the average immigrant takes $56,000 more out of the system over a lifetime than they put in. Bush is looking at giving amnesty to 15-20 million illegals and this isn't counting their families. Anyone care to add that up?

Oh, I forgot - this study was done before Bush proposed that they would be eligible for SS.

So, how much is $56,000 times 20 million?
Okay, now add in their families.
Oh, and I almost forgot the SS they'll all be eligible for.

Feelin' all warm and fuzzy now?

Biker

ProficientRifleman
June 18, 2006, 07:17 PM
It may take awhile, but Americans will eventually wake up to the fact that there's nothing to feel threatened about, and that most of the anti-immigrant hype is based on racism, plain and simple.

Racism huh? Well lets take a look. Europe is being invaded in the same way North America is, mostly by Africans and Arabs, but also by South Asians. North America and Europe are predominantly peopled by, and the economic and political systems are run by, white caucasian people.

I'f I'm not mistaken isn't racism the beliefe in a superior race or culture? If so, wouldn't that make all those Third Worlders racists? After all they are flooding into those parts of the world where they see a superior culture to their own.

By the way, 'Card, can you show me where Caucasian europeans and North Americans are flooding by the MILLIONS into ANY country in Africa? Maybe into greater Arabia?, what about India? Do you see millions of white folk risking death to break into Snengal? Zimbabwe? What about Shrilanka? Or maybe Communist China?

'Card, you sound like good liberal. Lets all just 'understand" each other and then we'll all get along. Mean while, our culture is being changed so rapidly, that asimilation is not possible. Twenty or thirty years from now the United States of America will not resemble anything which made it great. You need to ask yourself, why can't these people work hard, obey the law, pay their taxes and build a better life...in their OWN COUNTRY?

'Card, before YOU throw the race card you had better check your logical premises. If there seems to be a contradiction, one or more of your premises is wrong.

On a final note, since YOU threw the Race card, Who wrote our Declaration of Independence? Who wrote our Constitution? Who INSISTED on the BILL of Rights? Was it a bunch of Chinese? Mestizos? Recent imigrants from Bangladesh? Think hard about this one...here it is. It was a bunch of Middle class and wealthy WHITE GUYS who owned property and guns. They wanted to ensure that every free man could attain property and generate his OWN wealth. They would detest the social welfare state as it has devolved to this date.

Understand the illegals? I understand that our culture is being destroyed by hostile take over, and our counry is being invaded by a foreign nation.

mordechaianiliewicz
June 18, 2006, 07:27 PM
This is the same ole' rehashed thing, where crazed_ss and a couple others get the anti-illegal immigration squad to argue with them over the issue of immigration. They say, look, see, that's the problem. Yeah!

But honesty folks. All crazed_ss is really saying is a civil war is maybe a little much, and then questioning the ability of the electorate to think about the issue logically, and come up with real answers.

Most of us agree with the 2nd part. He is also giving the anecdote that in his personal life, he has never experienced problems because he doesn't speak Spanish, and has never been attacked for being an American and not of Hispanic descent.

No reason to doubt either assertion.

Personally, I believe that this is an invasion in which major corporations have rendered our laws nullified, they have sold out our country for cheap labour, and the Democrats have done so to attempt breaking the hold the Republicans have had in Southern and Western states.

While I think a war would be a while off, and require everyone making terrible choices, I don't think it an impossibility in the least.

That being said, in order to avoid a war, we need to win the peace, and brow beating our fellow Americans that don't understand the urgency of this situation will not win us the votes necessary to do that.

PS

To 'Card:

I'm all about dumping my office job where I sit down all day long and talk to people on a phone about credit cards but not for less than 35k per annum + benies. As long as the Mexicans can undercut manual labor and trades, and get those salaries to $7/hour w/ no benies, no retirement, and no future, Americans won't do those jobs.

It is a complete and utter lie that Americans won't do the manual trades. They just won't do them for the slave wages companies wish to offer, so of course the hard working Mexicans seem to favor these labour jobs.

The problem is that while Americans won't do labour jobs for slave wage, they won't go to school and get a 100k dollar education for a job an Indian will do for 1/5th or 1/6th of the salary. When American corporations go out of business bc their jobless consumers cannot afford the nice flaming sh*t they produced in China, they'll be utterly amazed. Short sighted idiots. just wish they didn't try to interfere in the free market, and keep small businesses from supplanting them.


edit: +1 Proficient Rifleman

'Card
June 18, 2006, 08:46 PM
Is there any chance that your opinion of them might be possibly influenced by the fact that you can hire them for less, expect more work for them, and ergo increase your own profits?
Good, honest question, and I'll be happy to give you an honest answer. Let me warn you right now, though - my answer isn't going to line up with your preconcieved notions, so you may be more comfortable skipping it.

There are two types of employers in this discussion. There are those who hire people that they know are illegal, pay them like crap and treat them like crap. I'm not going to deny that those folks are out there, but they're in the minority among employers. Those are the companies you see on the news getting big fines and such when they get busted by the INS, and they deserve it.

Most companies are kind of like me. I pretty much know that many of my employees are illegal immigrants, but (even though Biker calls for me to be lynched every time I say it) the law requires that I accept any documents that appear legal. Due to privacy concerns, the law also doesn't allow me to check the validity of these documents without some kind of valid reason - like if I was putting an employee into a security-sensitive position or something. I'm not, so I can't, and that's pretty much the end of it. The only way I'll ever find out if an employee's social security number (for example) is invalid is if the INS decides to conduct an audit of my payroll records. If they do, then they send me a letter saying "Such-and-such number is invalid", so I have to terminate that employee, and that's it.

Now, you might ask yourself why the social security administration doesn't check to see if these numbers are valid whenever I send them the payments from my new employee, right? Seems like it'd be easy for them to see if a number wasn't valid, or if it was assigned to some 80-year old woman in Nebraska, right? Once you understand why they don't do that, you'll have come a long way towards understanding who's really at fault here.

The point being that I have to treat all of these guys exactly as if they were legal citizens or immigrants with work permits. On what basis exactly could I pay them less? Green help, with no construction experience pays $11-per-hour with us. That may not sound like much among you northerners, but it's the going rate here in the south. Doesn't matter if you're latino, white, black, or whatever - that's the rate.

In fact, when our white or black entry-level help leaves us, it's usually to take a job where they pay less - so it isn't a pay issue at all. See, down at McDonald's or Wal-Mart, they're paying $10-per-hour, only there you don't have to work as hard, and you get to stay in the air conditioning all day. Nevermind that 5 years from now you'd be making $16-$18 an hour with us, and in that same 5 years you'll still be flipping burgers at McDonald's. All they are interested in is immediate comfort with less hard work. The Mexican guys on the other hand, still feel that construction is an honorable trade and a good career. They don't mind the work, and they don't mind the heat, and they go crazy for any training or advancement we offer them.

So is my company saving money by hiring huys who might be illegal? Maybe, but if we do it's because of increased productivity and reduced turnover - not because of paying lower wages. We'd be putting ourselves in a major legal bind if we tried crap like that. The second I bid on a Federal or State conract (which we do all the time) I'd have agents from the NC Wage & Rate Bureau practically kicking down the door of my office.


'Card, you sound like good liberal.
'Card is spewing the accepted White House line.
*chuckle*

So which is it, guys? Am I a liberal or a Bush-buttboy now? :cool:

The bottom line is that I'm neither. I used to be a diehard conservative, but now that the Republican party is owned by the Christian right, I've taken to calling myself a libertarian. My politics though, are pretty much irrelevant to this discussion. What is relevant is that I'm a reasonably intelligent, patriotic, redneck, hillbilly, independent-thinking military veteran who has seen this immigration mess up-close-and-personal for years now, and I simply feel differently about it than most of you guys. I wonder why you all find it so threatening when I interrupt your immigrant-bashing circle-jerks to say "Hey, you know - I used to feel the way you guys do, but I changed my mind"? Well, that's not true. I don't wonder about it. I understand it perfectly, but I won't insult you by stating the obvious.

As for this whole "Immigrant Civil War" thing... I mean, come on. If you want to huddle in the corner of your basement with your tinfoil hat, stroke your assault rifle and fantasize about SHTF scenarios, then more power to ya - but let's leave immigration out of it, OK? The whole idea is so absurd that it's laughable. Fantasize about bird flu, hurricanes, earthquakes or JBT's and I'll play along.

By the way, counting that last post, I've been called a liar now no less than 5 times in this thread. Do you guys think I'm just completely making this stuff up, or are you simply incapable of having an adult discussion with someone knowledgeable who doesn't share your opinion?

Husker1911
June 18, 2006, 08:56 PM
So 'Card, do you laugh at those of us calling for some kind of restrictions upon the MILLIONS of illegal immigrants here, and who continue to pour over the border?

'Card
June 18, 2006, 09:04 PM
I tried my (admittedly limited) best to answer your question back in Post #61 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2515997&postcount=61), Husker. The long and the short of it being that I think we need to find a solution to this mess just as much as anybody else does, but I think we can find a workable solution without pretending that A.) the sky is falling. -and- B.) All these immigrants are just sinister scumbag leeches who only want to corrupt our American way of life.

Cosmoline
June 18, 2006, 09:20 PM
So which is it, guys? Am I a liberal or a Bush-buttboy now

Have you been in a coma for the past year? BUSH IS A LIBERAL ON THIS ISSUE!

You're trying very hard to justify the fact that you approve of hiring illegals, up to and including claiming actual AMERICANS (remember us?) are too lazy to do the work. I'm sick of it. We're ALL sick of it. I don't know about a shooting civil war, but by god there's a civil war in the GOP RIGHT NOW and the pro-immigrant RINO's are going to be the first against the wall come November.

All these immigrants are just sinister scumbag leeches who only want to corrupt our American way of life.

It's ILLEGAL immigrants, so quit trying to change the discussion to "immigrants."

Is there any chance that your opinion of them might be possibly influenced by the fact that you can hire them for less, expect more work for them, and ergo increase your own profits?

BINGO!

Lock and load

wingman
June 18, 2006, 09:22 PM
Most companies are kind of like me. I pretty much know that many of my employees are illegal immigrants


Yep, there it is, greed can make one rationalize anything.


So is my company saving money by hiring huys who might be illegal? Maybe, but if we do it's because of increased productivity and reduced turnover - not because of paying lower wages.

Come on, please, it's about your gain.:banghead:

ProficientRifleman
June 18, 2006, 09:31 PM
Mr. Bush isn't a conservative. He is, like his father, a New World Order globalist-socialist. The leftists in congress hate him because he is in power and they are not.

Mr. Bush wants to lead us to international socialism over the next decade or so. The Democrat powermongers in D.C. want to lead us to international socialism next week. Thats the only difference between them.

Clearly Mr. Bush lied to us when he said, in his recent televised address:

"In order to secure the border, we must have a guest worker program."

That is a blantant lie. In order to secure the border, we only need secure the border. What The President was really saying is, "I'm not going to go through the motions of securing the border unless I get a Guest Worker Program."

Either way, the invasion will continue. Folks who decry racism now will be fleeing like rats from the sinking ship of state when THEIR state is overrun with a foreign culture. Then they will remember the good old days when everybody got along...Jeez.

In the end, there will not be an assimilation. There will be greater Mexico in the Southwestern United States. I wonder where these migrants will migrtate to once they have completed the conversion.

Davo
June 18, 2006, 09:43 PM
Card, I am leaving you an open ended invite to my home. I would like to take you out to the local areas where illegal immigration has had the biggest effects. I believe that you are looking for the best in an issue that has no real upside. I was up all night cleaning up Mexico's mess, and theres no end in sight.
I have an intimate knowledge of the local illegal population, and while many work hard, the huge mess brought with that hard work is too much to ignore. Come out and I will show you that many of these same hard workers are not the angels they seem to be (of course that could also apply to anyone). The issue not whos "good" or "bad", its the fact that none of it is supposed to be my problem and its been forced upon me. I will take you to schools where classes are taught in Spanish, and very few can pass the high school exit exam-but dont worry those kids will still get a degree, we cant lower their self esteem. Come see the hospitals and how overcrowded they are-I can get into specifics here that choke me up. Come with me and see what I do on the border. There are illegal border crossers who thank God that I was there.
I am an honest and hard working man who hates nobody-but that does not mean that I cant speak out against anyone. If you see the real face of this issue, and where its headed, AND are honest to yourself, you will see things differently than you do now.
Please consider my offer Card. I am 100% on the level here.

Biker
June 18, 2006, 10:02 PM
For what it's worth, I believe you Davo. The people who aren't aware of the consequences of unbridled immigration should be required to spend a month on the front lines.
Best o' luck, Friend.

Biker

wingman
June 18, 2006, 10:29 PM
For what it's worth, I believe you Davo. The people who aren't aware of the consequences of unbridled immigration should be required to spend a month on the front lines.


I see it daily so I understand and I will say those who hire illegals are a large part of the problem, the American taxpayer has no right to subsidize labor for your business.............

Husker1911
June 18, 2006, 10:36 PM
A solution, albeit a partial one, would be to implement the Fair Tax Plan. Under the Fair Tax Plan, illegals would pay their fair share of taxes! As would everyone, regardless of relative wealth.

http://www.fairtax.org/

gm
June 18, 2006, 10:42 PM
maybe hard working but the underlying truth is...they are undocumented and remain that way for a reason.they get cars without insurance for a reason,the get fake ids for a reason and they send money home for a reason.

much like an uninvited house guest who would break into your home and eat your food but cleans up after himself/herself and hides when everyone comes down for breakfast and notices all the milk,ojuice and eggs are gone.its not that hard to understand why its a hot topic fueled by money hungry business and greedy ceos and politicians that cant keep up with the outsourcing of products overseas and the demand for cheaper labor for greater profits while costs are skyrocketing for everyone..for everything.It smells of fraud and corruption,bigtime, its being exposed for what it is.

the legal immigrants do not like it either.

crazed_ss
June 18, 2006, 10:49 PM
I see it daily so I understand and I will say those who hire illegals are a large part of the problem, the American taxpayer has no right to subsidize labor for your business.............

Exactly.

Stopping Americans from hiring illegals is the only real solution to put a dent in the problem. Makeshift fences and more laws arent gonna do anything. This immigration thing is capitalism at its worst.. or best depending on who you talk to. When the labor oppurtunities for illegals dry up, then you should see a significant reduction on the people coming here.

Biker
June 18, 2006, 10:53 PM
Why not implement employer penalties and a physical barrier, SS?

Biker

ProficientRifleman
June 18, 2006, 10:54 PM
Jeez... this should be so simple. Why can't they work hard and practice family values in their own country?

There is a mechanism for imigration. They are not using it. They are here illegally. They are not citizens, therefor they are aliens. They are illgal aliens and should be deported.

Saying that deportation is not realistic is a cop-out. It begins with a few.

crazed_ss
June 18, 2006, 11:03 PM
Why not implement employer penalties and a physical barrier, SS?

I'm all for employer penalties. IIRC, we already such laws on the books. Maybe harsher punishments would help, but only if the laws are actually enforced. I believe another problem is Americans want their cake and eat it too.

I was listening to a talk radio show a couple weeks ago and they were talking about prices of food and construction, etc. The host was saying how much he saved by getting illegals to do work on his deck and how he likes buying cheap strawberries. While he recognizes something has to be done about the illegal problem, he said he doesnt feel like paying more to get his deck refinished or paying 6 bucks for strawberries.

I fear many people have this thinking. Go down to any field here or any construction site and you'll see Mexicans toiling away. Common sense says many of them are illegals. It seems like the Border Patrol could just walk onto those fields or construction sites and shut everything down. Doesnt happen though.

Biker
June 18, 2006, 11:06 PM
I'm not for new laws, existing laws would serve us well if enforced.

Biker

crazed_ss
June 18, 2006, 11:08 PM
Jeez... this should be so simple. Why can't they work hard and practice family values in their own country?

Many do. But if you've ever been to Mexico, you'd see how hard it is. The rich Mexicans seem to control everything and they have no regard for their fellow Mexican citizens. It's terrible. I think there's a lot of racism in their society that is holding them down. On the surface you'll see Mexicans claiming how proud there are and how they are "La Raza", but when the people who control all the wealth in Mexico look nothing like the illegals crossing the border everyday.

ProficientRifleman
June 18, 2006, 11:26 PM
Many do. But if you've ever been to Mexico, you'd see how hard it is. The rich Mexicans seem to control everything and they have no regard for their fellow Mexican citizens. It's terrible. I think there's a lot of racism in their society that is holding them down. On the surface you'll see Mexicans claiming how proud there are and how they are "La Raza", but when the people who control all the wealth in Mexico look nothing like the illegals crossing the border everyday.

That is my point! Why do they not work hard to make their own country better? Instead they come here, chant "Viva la Raza!" and try to turn our country into greater Mexico.

Explain to me why this is a good idea?

crazed_ss
June 18, 2006, 11:30 PM
That's a great idea.
Like some have stated in this thread, Mexico needs another revolution.
Unfortunately for us, it's easier for them to just come here.

Art Eatman
June 18, 2006, 11:32 PM
Deja vu all over again...

Art

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