Nat. Guard in N.O. LA


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Thefabulousfink
June 19, 2006, 12:57 PM
Just found this on Yahoo.news.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060619/ap_on_re_us/new_orleans_national_guard
NEW ORLEANS - Mayor Ray Nagin asked the governor Monday to send National Guard troops to patrol his city after a violent weekend in which five teenagers were shot to death and a man was fatally stabbed in argument over beer.

ADVERTISEMENT

City leaders convened a special meeting to voice outrage after the killings Saturday in an area near the central business district.

"If we don't have wind knocking us down, we have shooters knocking us down, and that's unacceptable," said City Council President Oliver Thomas.

Saturday's shootings — plus the fatal stabbing Sunday night in an argument over beer — brought this year's murder toll to 53, raising fears that violence was back on the rise in a city that was plagued by violent crime before Hurricane Katrina drove residents away last year.

Crime has been creeping in the city: 17 killings in the first three months of 2006, and 36 since the start of April.

The shootings Saturday of five teenagers who had been in an SUV together created one of the bloodiest attacks in this city's turbulent history; the last killing with that many victims was in 1995.

Nagin asked the governor to send up to 300 National Guard troops and 60 state police officers to patrol the city.

The City Council said it also would consider increasing overtime for police to put more officers on the street and it called for a "crime summit" within two weeks.

"We have to deal with it now," Councilman Arnold Fielkow said. "If we don't make people feel safe in their homes, nothing will happen. Let's make this priority Number One."

Cynthia Willard-Lewis, who represents predominantly black eastern New Orleans, said a big part of the solution will be getting young people off the streets and into caring environments such as schools.

She suggested opening schools after hours but didn't say how that could have prevented Saturday's 4 a.m. shooting, which police have said apparently was either prompted by drugs or revenge.

"We're looking forward to the day when ... this city returns to being one of the safest cities in America," Nagin said.



It seems that Mayor Nagin is dead set on turning NO into a police city. What a brave new, chocholate, world:neener:

Edit: If people complined about using Nat. Guard for border patrol, how will they feel about using them for police?

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Hawkmoon
June 19, 2006, 01:02 PM
"We're looking forward to the day when ... this city returns to being one of the safest cities in America," Nagin said.
Who does he think he's kidding? New Orleans hasn't been "safe" since the white man took it away from the Indians. It started out as a river port, and had all the violence problems historically associated with such.

1 old 0311
June 19, 2006, 01:03 PM
Well other than needing Federal money, and State troops, looks like things are going very well there.:evil: :evil:

Kevin

TallPine
June 19, 2006, 02:23 PM
If we don't make people feel safe in their homes,
And how does he propose to do that ... by busting down their doors and stealing their guns ...? :rolleyes:

engineer151515
June 19, 2006, 02:26 PM
Generally speaking, I wonder if the NG will carry loaded weapons on patrol. You know, like they are NOT allowed to do at the Mexican border.

Car Knocker
June 19, 2006, 02:30 PM
Delete.

Car Knocker
June 19, 2006, 02:31 PM
I wonder if the NG will carry loaded weapons on patrol. You know, like they are NOT allowed to do at the Mexican border.

The National Guard is not patrolling the border.

1911Tuner
June 19, 2006, 03:10 PM
Ladies and laddies...I had to go absorb the comment:

>>If we don't make people feel safe in their homes...<
**********************

Now, sit back and let that sink in for a minute or so. Right there! He just
gave you the typical Police State mentality...proved what his mind is like

We...MAKE...people feel safe. MAKE...people...safe.

And, he's going to do that with the overwelming police presence that runs past every residence in every part of the city in a neverending procession 24/7/365...?? No? Then how? In case he hasn't noticed, people don't commit crimes when the police are in the area. At least, not the ones with an IQ higher than your average housefly.

But he...THEY...are going to MAKE people feel safe.

It goes hand-in-hand with the dire predictions of "Blood running in the Streets" when the CCW Shall Issue states stepped up to the plate and said "Yes, we will."

When the carnage failed to materialize, they were a bit mystified. Just couldn't understand how it was that we bloodthirsty, out of control savages weren't so savage, nor so bloodthirsty, nor so out of control as they believed us to be.

How can that be, Chuck? Teddy? After all...we weren't allowed to carry a concealed weapon until after Big Brother told us that we could.

Ever consider the possibility that most of the ones who applied for a carry permit...and many who didn't...had been carrying all along? Nah! Couldn't be!
Ya'll didn't say it was okay. You didn't say "Simon Says" so nobody
stood up! Nobody would dare take responsibility for their own safety without first obtaining permission from our babysitters...our mentors...our oh-so-much more intelligent and beneveolent leaders...Right?

Here's a big 'ol clue for ya. When you said that we couldn't arm ourselves for our own protection, the thugs didn't pay ya any mind...and neither did we.
Why did so many of us choose to disobey your wishes? Because we knew that when you said that the police would protect us, and make us feel safe in our homes and on the streets...we KNEW...that you were fulla sheep dip.

Suggest that you tend to the affairs of state, and let us tend to our own backyards...We've done it for a lot longer than you've been in that office. And let Mayor Nagin clean up his own house. It's plenty dirty.

Manedwolf
June 19, 2006, 03:11 PM
NEW ORLEANS - Mayor Ray Nagin asked the governor Monday to send National Guard troops to patrol his city after a violent weekend in which five teenagers were shot to death and a man was fatally stabbed in argument over beer.

Uh...hello. Does POSSE COMITATUS ring a bell, Mr. Nagin? :barf:

June 18, 1878
SEC. 15. From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress; and no money appropriated by this act shall be used to pay any of the expenses incurred in the employment of any troops in violation of this section And any person willfully violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction thereof shall be punished by fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding two years or by both such fine and imprisonment.

10 U.S.C. (United States Code) 375

Sec. 375. Restriction on direct participation by military personnel:

The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any activity (including the provision of any equipment or facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) under this chapter does not include or permit direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law.

Lupinus
June 19, 2006, 03:17 PM
how bout you take all the money youd spend on that, buy a 1911 for everyone in the city and a few hundred rounds of ammo, and give them out.

The morons will kill themselves and once that is taken care of you will have a well armed nice city that is worth visiting.

Camp David
June 19, 2006, 03:25 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060619/...national_guard
NEW ORLEANS - Mayor Ray Nagin asked the governor Monday to send National Guard troops to patrol his city ...

Dear Mayor Nagin:

No.

Your city is your responsibility. You are partly responsible for this crime wave. National Guard troops should not be asked to help you clean up your mess. Fix it yourself. New Orleans is your responsibility.

I suggest you start by getting everyone employed. Idle minds and idle hands are the devil's playground. Your chocolate city needs to be a city on the mend; that means everyone working toward betterment. Suggest you start terminating welfare programs and see what happens. People might start working. Then relax taxation on private business; that will help tremendously!

I suggest you continue by looking elsewhere for law enforcement. Time and time again, most recently during Katrina, your New Orleans police force has shown its true colors by being the laughstock of the nation and totally corrupt; any Boy Scout troop in the nation has more integrity! You might dismiss them all and hire new police, from top to bottom, from elsewhere. Do this now.

I suggest you conclude by allowing citizens their rights under the Constitution in New Orleans; Second Amendment rights primary. Taking citizens guns makes things worse rather than better.

Sorry sir; we don't send National Guard troops to fix mayor screw-ups. Fix New Orleans yourself. By the way... you need to hurry... next strong wind is just off the coast!

Signed.

American Taxpayer

btw... you still need to reimburse nation for all the help we provided during Katrina...we understand lots of it was frauduently used and we want our funds back...

oh yeah...last point... If I were you I would locate all the city's buses and keep them handy; just a suggestion...

Lonestar.45
June 19, 2006, 03:30 PM
I'd think 10 months post-Katrina, they ought to have their stuff together by now.

engineer151515
June 19, 2006, 03:35 PM
The National Guard is not patrolling the border.

True...

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/06/16border.html

The 6,000 National Guard troops ordered to the U.S.-Mexico border by President Bush will stay up to two years, strictly to support the Border Patrol, not to join or supplant it, Lt. Gen. H. Steven Blum, chief of the U.S. National Guard Bureau, said Thursday in Austin.

Blum and Paul McHale, assistant defense secretary for Homeland Defense, were at Camp Mabry in West Austin to kick off the assembly of Texas Guard troops for deployment to the border. They said the troops will observe illegal border movement, gather intelligence and build border barriers while the interdiction, confrontation and arrest of illegal border crossers will remain in the hands of the Border Patrol.


But wait ....

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50401

The head of the U.S. National Guard surprised Border Patrol officials, declaring some of the troops he will send to assist them will work in close proximity to the border, be armed and allowed to fire their weapons if necessary. "Any soldier assigned to a mission where he would be placed in harm or danger, where his life would be threatened potentially, will in fact be armed and will have the inherent right of self-protection," Lt. Gen. H. Steven Blum told the San Antonio Express-News Thursday.



So, I wonder if NO National Guard will be armed?

Thefabulousfink
June 19, 2006, 03:59 PM
The NG on the border is a very different scenario than putting the NG in NO. Along the border, they are building fences and providing support for the Border Patrol. This is not much different than if they had been called out to reinforce a levy against rising flood water. Allowing some of the NG to carry weapons is no different than if that levy was under fire from criminals and drug smugglers. The weapons are there so the NG can defend themselves from the armed criminals that frequent the US-Mexico border, not so they can hunt down and engage them.

Putting the NG in New Orleans is for the purpose of controlling the population, in this case the criminal element. Nagin is not planning on using the NG to do paperwork so more LEOs are free to walk the beat, he wants them patrolling the city. As pointed out above this is illegal unless Congress allows it (i.e. Martial Law).

Nagin's desire to call out the National Guard not only shows his Statist mentality, but also his ineptitude and refusal to deal with his own mess. If Katrina didn't show how unfit Nagin is (and I don't see how it didn't), this act would show it clearly.

Jeff White
June 19, 2006, 04:25 PM
Does everything have to be a conspiracy to turn the country into a police state?

I have a feeling that this is more about an ineffective administration that doesn't want to spend it's own money on providing enough police to do the job, then it is about turning New Orleans into a police state. If they actually hired all the officers they took grant money from the feds to pay for, they would then have to pay those officers and that wouldn't leave much left over for the politicians to steal.

He's also asked for 60 state troopers. You know for years the Illinois State Police provided the majority of the police services in East St Louis, for those exact same reasons, the city couldn't afford the money to pay the officers and keep their cars and radios working.

Jeff

NineseveN
June 19, 2006, 04:33 PM
Come on Jeff, the bums down there confiscated weapons illegally, forcibly removed people from their homes, and now they want the national guard down there...it's not like these particular calls of "statist" are without background or merit.

We're all guessing here, none of us truly knows what Nagin's intent is, so your guess is as good as mine. I wish you saw it that way, would make for a more pleasant conversation.

1911Tuner
June 19, 2006, 04:42 PM
Jeff asked:

>Does everything have to be a conspiracy to turn the country into a police state?<
********

Of course not, Jeff...but when a city official appeals to the Governor for a military presence, it's teetering dangerously close to martial law, when the problem rightly belongs to the local police and the city administration. If he can't get a handle on it, he should step aside and let someone else take a crack at it...besides the U.S. Military.

It also sets a dangerous precedent if he gets what he's asking for. Can't handle the crime in your city, Mr. Mayor? The 82nd Airborne is at your disposal. Yeah, I know...but how long will it be until Posse Comitatus is overridden in the name of peace and safety? The next national elections?
The next executive administration? We've got more than a few aspiring politicians and incumbents who would welcome an opportunity like the one that Katrina gave Nagin.

My ol' grandpappy used to tell me: "Coming events cast their shadows before them." These shadows are a bit...troubling.

engineer151515
June 19, 2006, 04:58 PM
Not meaning to give a long, boring quoted post, I tried to give some info that illustrates the how the Posse Comitatus Act has been trampled in the recent years...


Wounded Knee
.........the 1973 take-over of a facility on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota, and the subsequent siege, arrest and trial of members of the American Indian Movement (AIM). During the course of the siege the federal civilian law enforcement authorities made extensive use of material, personnel and equipment provided by the military


Waco ....
According to a report by the U.S. Department of the Treasury, the list of military personnel and equipment used at Waco included: 15 active-duty military personnel, 13 Texas National Guard personnel, nine Bradley fighting vehicles, five combat-engineer vehicles, one tank-retrieval vehicle and two M1A1 Abrams tanks. Additionally, Fort Hood reportedly was used for much of the training.......

More recently...


In the fall of 2002, the Washington DC metro area was subjected to a series of apparently random sniper shootings. ........... During this period the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, authorized the use of the U.S. Northern Command in supplying “assets and capabilities” to civil law enforcement to help track down the sniper(s). Although military personnel and equipment played no role in the eventual arrest of the two individuals accused of participating in the sniper attacks, John Allen Muhammed and Lee Malvo, the use of Army RC-7 fixed wing aircraft, equipped with high technology sensors and manned by military personnel, provoked charges that the government had violated the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878. ............


At first glance it would appear that the Posse Comitatus Act 1878 embodies the principle of the separation of the military from civilian law enforcement......... However, it is interesting to note that no one has ever been convicted of violating 18 USC 1385, and when needed Congress has been quick to create statutory exceptions as permitted by the Act............ It could even be argued that the Act has only served to legitimize the military role of a posse comitatus by providing Congress with the ability to create its own exceptions whenever the need arises.

http://www.llrx.com/features/posse.htm

ball3006
June 19, 2006, 05:05 PM
police department................I guess the magic word is "had".....The only thing we have ever seen is the chief saying he is going to take citizen's guns away again.........chris3

Jeff White
June 19, 2006, 05:13 PM
Sorry but posse commitatus only applies to the federal government. The National Guard belongs to the the governor of the state unless called into active federal service.

When the guard is called up for a mission like that, the state of Louisiana would have to bear all the expenses of the mission, to include paying the federal government for the use of federal owned property. (almost every piece of equipment the Guard has is owned by the federal government) The state will bear the cost of the wages for the troops (the pay scale for state active duty is not the same in every state as the military pay scale, in many cases jr enlisted soldiers and airmen are paid more money then they would make on federal active duty. The state would also bear the cost of all the fuel burned, feeding and housing the soldiers.

Unless the president or scretary of defense were to call them to federal active duty and deploy them to New Orleans, posse commitatus doesn't apply.

Jeff

Roadwild17
June 19, 2006, 06:00 PM
To my understanding, I'm at work right now about 15 min away from NO, the governor just OK'ed it.

Thefabulousfink
June 19, 2006, 06:49 PM
I am sorry Roadwild17,

If handled poorly, this has great potential to turn out bad...and given NO track record for handling things, well I'm just glad I live on the other side of the contry.

Take care of yourself Roadwild17, and watch your six.

1911Tuner
June 19, 2006, 06:54 PM
Federal Government...State Muscle. It's still a military presence. Not during a declared emergency or natural disaster...but acting as a police force. Slippery, slippery slope there. The term "Powder Keg" comes to mind.

Bartholomew Roberts
June 19, 2006, 06:57 PM
Uh...hello. Does POSSE COMITATUS ring a bell, Mr. Nagin?

As already noted, posse comitatus does not affect the National Guard when they are called up by the Governor. Otherwise, the Governor could never call out the National Guard without violating posse comitatus.

Thefabulousfink
June 19, 2006, 07:07 PM
Just because this isn't illegal acording to Posse Comitatus doesn't make it a good idea. As 1911tuner pointed out it is a slippery slope. These are soldiers, not police, and are not properly trained to deal with the subtleties of law enforcement.

This is a BAD idea.

Jeff White
June 19, 2006, 07:07 PM
Tuner,
Let's not panic until we see what the rules of engagement are and how they intend to utilize the Guardsmen. It's not uncommon in these types of situations to give the Guardsmen administrative functions so that sworn officers are freed up to work the street.

I don't know about Louisiana, but not all states give the Guard peace officer status if called to state active duty. If that is the case then they would most likely only be used to provide backup for the sworn officer. I don't see the Guard out patrolling the streets without being accompanied by NOPD. If they don't have peace officer status anything they did would be the same as a private citizen doing it. Every arrest would be a citizens arrest, every use of force would be subject to the same rules a civilian follows.

Even if they only send members of MP units, it's still going to be very problematic and a defense lawyers dream if they were just turned loose on New Orleans. Then you have to figure that they certainly don't want to call these guys back up and pay them to go to multiple court appearances 8 to 18 months from now.

I predict that you'll see them used in a support role.

Jeff

Mannlicher
June 19, 2006, 07:30 PM
Wonder if Ray would have done this prior to the Mayoral election? Course New Orleans has been a cesspool, and one of the most corrupt cities in America for many years.
I agree with Jeff on this one. I think that "Chocolate Ray" is taking advantage of a drug related shooting to get some free police work.

1 old 0311
June 19, 2006, 08:27 PM
Wow can people be killed? Didn't Nagin grab all the guns?........Oh wait he just took the LEGAL guns didn't he????

Kevin

1911Tuner
June 19, 2006, 08:44 PM
Hope you're right, Jeff. Keepin' an eye on it all the same.

distra
June 19, 2006, 09:00 PM
Sorry for the dublicate, but this guy ceases to amaze me with his ignorance. :rolleyes: It seems NO problems can only be fixed by someone else? :confused: Hartford, CT has had 20+ shootings so far this year and the mayor is not asking for the NG. :banghead:

The_Shootist
June 19, 2006, 09:29 PM
...and like I said in my (duplicate) post above, here in Houston we had 23 people shot over last Thanksgiving weekend (courtesy of some low life transplants from 'nawlins) and we didn't call out the guard. Then again, most of the bad guys are returning home I guess, by now!

Mind you, its too wet for crime today! :uhoh:

Otherguy Overby
June 19, 2006, 09:56 PM
distra:
Sorry for the dublicate, but this guy ceases to amaze me with his ignorance. It seems NO problems can only be fixed by someone else?

Functionally, there is no difference between diabolically stupid and diabolically evil. Ray Nagin is one or the other.

If this world had justice, he'd be spiked up on the south wall of the NO city hall. After a hot day's crucifixion, nailed up on that hot southern exposure, he should then be interviewed by the liberal media, say Gretta Van Susteren:
Ray, tell us about your agony?
Ray, can you explain the irony of your present situation?
Ray, do you believe in an afterlife?
Ray, can you see a white light?

BTW, I am not a religious man, but I sincerely believe in evil people.

The liberals believe in pathetic fallacy that nature or things can be cruel. However nature is only indifferent. To be cruel requires intent. Ray Nagin has intent.

Shweboner
June 19, 2006, 10:20 PM
a man was fatally stabbed in argument over beer.


Sounds like things are back to normal.



"We have to deal with it now," Councilman Arnold Fielkow said. "If we don't make people feel safe in their homes, nothing will happen. Let's make this priority Number One."


Sounds like the problem is more being safe in the streets than in your home. But then again, these were not random crimes. So its a load of crap




but wait, this is my favorite......
Cynthia Willard-Lewis, who represents predominantly black eastern New Orleans, said a big part of the solution will be getting young people off the streets and into caring environments such as schools.


Because we all know that if a school was open these kids would flock right to it... how out of touch can you be with reality?
These bastards most likely arent even attending school during the day let alone hanging out at one at 3am doing somekind of state-approved wholesome activities..... give... me.... a break

Roadwild17
June 19, 2006, 10:42 PM
I'm from the area and I REFUSE to set a fot in NO city limits, Unless I'm on the interstate doing 80. I know I wont outrun the bullet, but maby the guy with the gun.

offthepaper
June 19, 2006, 10:56 PM
So what if the NG runs into a gang/mob/population situation they can't handle, or escape from, what then ?

An airstrike ? :neener:

Jeff White
June 19, 2006, 11:04 PM
I heard on the CBS radio news at 7pm CDT that the Guard was going to be used in a support role, freeing up police officers to deal with the crime wave. Don't know how much credibility I'd give that report, but considering at one time in my life dealing with those issues was part of my job description, I think the news report is probably right.

I doubt if the Guardsmen who go in are even armed.

Jeff

carpettbaggerr
June 20, 2006, 12:09 AM
Isn't the murder rate less than half that of the last year? Something like 100 murders in first 6 months of 2005 and around 50 in 2006.

Yet it's a horrible epidemic that requires the National Guard to put it down? Just not adding up to me....

:scrutiny:

Edit -- Why didn't they need the Guard in 1994?

Homicides hit their historic peak here in 1994, with 421 dead — more per capita than any other U.S. city that year. Within just five years, the number was slashed by nearly two-thirds, to 159, as homicides plummeted nationally.

Back up to 265 last year
But by last year, the number in New Orleans had crept back up to 265. There had been 192 this year by mid-August, compared with 169 at the same time in 2004. Adjusted for the city’s size, those numbers dwarf murder rates in Washington, Detroit, Baltimore, Atlanta, Chicago, Los Angeles and New York City.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8999837

Jeff White
June 20, 2006, 12:33 AM
Well perhaps they aren't going in a support role:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060620/ap_on_re_us/new_orleans_national_guard
National Guard ordered to New Orleans

By CAIN BURDEAU, Associated Press Writer 6 minutes ago

NEW ORLEANS - Acting at the mayor's request, Gov. Kathleen Blanco said Monday she would send National Guard troops and state police to patrol the streets of New Orleans after a bloody weekend in which six people were killed.

"The situation is urgent," Blanco said. "Things like this should never happen, and I am going to do all I can to stop it."

One hundred National Guardsmen with law enforcement experience and 60 state police officers were to be sent to the city Tuesday. Up to 200 more troops would be deployed after that, said Denise Bottcher, the governor's spokeswoman.

Earlier Monday, Mayor Ray Nagin had asked for as many as 300 National Guardsmen and 60 state police officers.

It was the first time the National Guard has been used for law enforcement in the United States since the immediate aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

Nagin had sought the troops after five teenagers in an SUV were shot and killed in the city's deadliest attack in at least 11 years. Police said the attack was apparently motivated by drugs or revenge. Also, a man was stabbed to death Sunday night in an argument over beer.

"Today is a day when New Orleanians are stepping up. We've had enough," Nagin said. "This is our line in the sand. We're saying we're not going any further."

Nagin said he would not allow criminals to take over when the city is still trying to recover from the hurricane. The mayor said troops should be posted in heavily flooded neighborhoods to free police to concentrate on hot spots elsewhere.

Community leaders have raised fears that the violence could discourage people from moving back to New Orleans.

The National Guard had as many as 15,000 soldiers in the city in the weeks after Katrina. As many as 2,000 stayed until February, said Louisiana National Guard spokesman Lt. Col. Pete Schneider.

Blanco said plans were being crafted last week to step up anti-crime efforts, but the weekend slayings forced authorities to move faster. She said she was talking with New Orleans Police Chief Warren Riley about his exact needs.

Riley assured residents that the Guard was "not coming in and taking over the city."

"You will have to look for them to find them," Riley said. "They will not be uptown, downtown or in the French Quarter. Our people will be there. This will allow us to have more of our people there."

The police force has been operating with depleted ranks. It has about 1,375 officers, compared with about 1,750 before Katrina. The city's pre-Katrina population of 465,000 has rebounded to about half its size.

The governor urged the mayor to put a juvenile curfew in place. New Orleans has a curfew for juveniles, but Riley said it is not being enforced because there is no place to put young offenders.

Blanco offered two warnings: "First, to parents, keep your teenagers off the streets and out of trouble. Second, to judges, I am urging you to keep hardened criminals where they belong — in jail and off the streets. We must protect our citizens."

Nagin's request for help had been backed by the City Council.

"If we don't have wind knocking us down, we have shooters knocking us down, and that's unacceptable," said City Council President Oliver Thomas.

Reaction to the mayor's request was mixed.

"As we tell people to come home, we have to keep these areas safe," said LaToya Cantrell, president of the Broadmoor Improvement Association, a heavily flooded neighborhood. "It's long overdue. Neighborhoods should not have been left alone to begin with. Pulling out was a mistake."

But Sherman Copelin, president of the New Orleans East Business Association, cautioned that handing over some neighborhoods to troops unfamiliar with those areas could be a mistake, saying officials should not "let someone come in and be a housekeeper."

The killings over the weekend brought this year's murder toll to 53, raising fears that violence was back on the rise in a city that was plagued by violent crime before Katrina drove out much of the population last year.

Crime has been creeping back into the city: 17 killings in the first three months of 2006, and 36 since the start of April.

At least three other people, ages 16 to 27, have been fatally shot in the same area where the five teenagers were killed early Saturday.

In addition to Nagin's request for troops and state police, the City Council said it would consider increasing overtime for police to put more officers on the street. It also called for a "crime summit" within two weeks.

"We have to deal with it now," Councilman Arnold Fielkow said. "If we don't make people feel safe in their homes, nothing will happen. Let's make this priority No. 1."

___

Associated Press writers Janet McConnaughey and Mary Foster contributed to this report.

idahoemt
June 20, 2006, 01:36 AM
...These are soldiers, not police, and are not properly trained to deal with the subtleties of law enforcement...

Just in the interest of accuracy...

...One hundred National Guardsmen with law enforcement experience...

Perhaps, as one person quoted in the article pointed out, they aren't familiar with the neighborhoods, but at least some of the troops will have LE experience.

Roadwild17
June 20, 2006, 06:17 AM
Watching the early news and drinking my coffee, it defiantly went down thew wrong pipe, Ray "were going to give you a curfew of about 11 or 12 for the summer" Blanco "were going to have the troops there for about 2.5 months then were going to re-evaluate from there"

Did someone say something about a police-state city?

WYO
June 20, 2006, 08:50 AM
According to today's Times-Picayune article (http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/index.ssf?/base/news-6/1150784711311680.xml&coll=1), the purpose is for the Guard to patrol the largely deserted areas to deter looters and free up the NOPD to focus on crime hotspots.

The article also stated:
And the killings have accelerated since the beginning of April, with 36 of this year's 53 murders taking place in the past 12 weeks, police figures show. Even if the current population is 220,000 residents, a generous figure according to most experts, the 12-week total represents 16 murders per 100,000 residents, more than the 15.1 killings per 100,000 residents in the same period last year.

So, the purpose is not to impose a police state but to try to bring things to the level of pre-Katrina chaos. Of course, this sends a clear message to organizations trying to decide where to host their major conventions 3-5 years down the road. Conventions are the city's cash cow, so I don't see this as a real positive development for the revitalization of the city.

NineseveN
June 20, 2006, 09:47 AM
predict that you'll see them used in a support role. predict that you'll see them used in a support role.

I hope you're right, but it doesn't appear that way to me.

CAnnoneer
June 20, 2006, 10:44 AM
It seems to me most of you guys do not see the simple gungrabber ratchet:

1) Publicize trivial violence among gangbanger dirtbags
2) Use it as an excuse to request military assistance
3) Impose martial law
4) Send the troops to collect weapons from legal owners for "everybody's safety until things quiet down"
5A) If people fire on troops in defending their constitutional rights and freedoms, kill them, paint them as wackos, and use the incident as #1 above. Iterate.
5B) If people allow themselves disarmed, collect the guns and keep them indefinitely.
6) "At some point in the future", "when things quiet down", maybe consider all the lawsuits that people will file for their guns and freedoms, you know, when we "win the War of Gang Violence", like the other eternal wars we are fighting...

Nagin is dumb. The Church of Victimology will do that to you. So long as he is in office, being an idiot makes him just as dangerous as if he were malevolently intelligent.

Observe NO very carefully. It is the social testing ground of every gungrabber, statist, and socialist wetdreamer.

22-rimfire
June 20, 2006, 10:56 AM
Guess we'll be ready for the next hurricane in New Orleans with the troops already there.:)

I think it's a very bad idea to bring national guard troops in because of a few murders. This kind of thing has gone on in NO for years. What has changed?

NineseveN
June 20, 2006, 11:06 AM
What has changed?

Read CAnnoneer's last statement in the post above yours...

full auto seer
June 20, 2006, 12:16 PM
Y'all, don't get too excited by what the politicians are saying in 'the news'.
This NG deployment event is just an excuse to stand up and talk big.
The REAL STORY? N.O. is NOT PREPARED FOR HURRICANE SEASON.
What do they really want the NG for? Driving the evacuation buses.

..."Observe NO very carefully"...
YES, in fact, why not come on down here and get a REAListic idea.

It'd be great, cause we need more of y'all's money.
The rest of it all disappeared somewhere, they say it's related to
the large sucking sound that we hear all the time now.
The money subsided, i guess, or it got wet and moldy and anyway it's gone.
So please come on down and spend money.
(But don't plan on protecting you or yours while you're here.)

Seriously, how else can you see combat troops deployed in a bombed-out
third world environment, without ever leaving the comfort and safety
of your own car?

(insert annoying smilie here)

-seer-

Roadwild17
June 20, 2006, 12:21 PM
Hey Full Auto, if anything happenes get on airline and head west, I'll meet you past LaPlace and we can sit down and clean our guns together, assuming you still have yours cuz I'm gona still have mine:neener: .

offthepaper
June 20, 2006, 12:33 PM
QUOTE:
"Nagin said he would not allow criminals to take over when the city is still trying to recover from the hurricane."
------------------
From the results of the elections, I'd say that's already happened. :D

WYO
June 20, 2006, 01:12 PM
CAnnoneer, you're giving those people WAY too much credit. A Louisiana type conspiracy involves things like steering contracts to buddies and figuring out how big a freezer you have to buy in order to be able to store the sting money.

myusername
June 20, 2006, 01:39 PM
All the players in government down here just kind of make you want to puke. Now Fielkow is on the council he will probably want to turn the city into a version of Chicago, where he is from. He needs to go back to sports. I was wondering why he moved to the southshore a few years back, I guess this is why.


They are saying they need the NG b/c the NOPD is so small now they can't handle all their problems. They also said that the NG would not be seen around the quarter or uptown. So they don't want the tourists seeing them and I guess there isn't enough problems uptown to need them. Maybe they can send some NOPD uptown to catch the muggers around loyola and tulane since they have the extra help now.

Mongo the Mutterer
June 20, 2006, 01:40 PM
"Today is a day when New Orleanians are stepping up. We've had enough," Nagin said. "This is our line in the sand. We're saying we're not going any further."Hey Mayor two questions:

One -- If New Orleanians are stepping up, why do you need the National Guard?

Two -- How's that second term going so far?

Pork Fat
June 20, 2006, 10:32 PM
The proportion of missing NOPD personnel seems trivial compared to that of missing New Orleans residents. If the city has half of it's pre-flood population, and over three-quarters of it's pre-flood police officers, how in heck is this being blamed on a shrunken law-enforcement agency? Are that many cops patrolling the wreckage as opposed to inhabited areas?
The recent incidents used ad nauseam to illustrate this need for SOMETHING TO BE DONE would likely have happened if there were TWICE the number of Big Easy minions of law enforcement. No place has enough police to physically monitor every corner and alley simultaneously. I think the mayor wants to blur the fact that a lot of his fine upstanding knuckleheads are simply back home, doing what they do best.

Otherguy Overby
June 21, 2006, 01:50 AM
Pork Fat:

The proportion of missing NOPD personnel seems trivial compared to that of missing New Orleans residents. If the city has half of it's pre-flood population, and over three-quarters of it's pre-flood police officers, how in heck is this being blamed on a shrunken law-enforcement agency? Are that many cops patrolling the wreckage as opposed to inhabited areas?


Maybe the cops who haven't come back are the few who actually did something. The good guys found a better gig elsewhere. The ones who came back just returned to the trough.

Spreadfire Arms
June 21, 2006, 02:09 AM
personally, id rather have New Orleans call in their own State's National Guard and State Police, instead of requesting civilian law enforcement from neighboring states to help.

Texas has its own problems. surely we don't need to bring TX law enforcement officers (or Arkansas, Mississippi, etc) them back to New Orleans again to quell the problems there.

Texas was the state that took the most refugees in from Louisiana. there is nothing wrong with helping displaced people, however, as evidenced in Houston and Dallas, they brought alot of their social problems with them. gangs, violent crimes, etc. did not disappear when they came to Texas. so not only are we dealing with an influx of people (which we must accomodate with shelter, food, jobs, schools, and other social services), but now it looks like there may, in the future, be a request for additional help?

wow...and we're back in hurricane season again. i sure hope we don't see another hurricane hit.

engineer151515
June 21, 2006, 10:54 AM
I heard on New Orleans radio this morning.

It was alleged that two of the teenage shooting victims were involved in a drive-by shooting a couple of evenings before their demise. (I use the term alleged because I don't have a link reference to give you good people here on THR for what I heard on the radio).

They also discussed how the National Guard might be able to put the brakes on the continued looting.

I didn't know that looting was an ongoing problem, but apparently it is.

gunsmith
June 21, 2006, 11:06 AM
when you want to kill people, break things, and blow things up.

1911Tuner
June 21, 2006, 11:48 AM
Quote:

>I heard on New Orleans radio this morning.
It was alleged that two of the teenage shooting victims were involved in a drive-by shooting a couple of evenings before their demise.<
**************

Ah! Dogs and fleas...

Booyah!:rolleyes:

zeke1312
June 21, 2006, 12:03 PM
If Ray Nagen's chocolate city folks were participating in the rebuilding of NO instead of allowing illegals to do so, the gangsta folks would be too busy to steal, do holdups, etc. They need to get of their rear ends and rebuild "their" city. Ray is good at "the sky is falling" yapping, blaming others for his weak and misguided management. The NO folks elected him, go for it Ray. Fix your city, no just the leeves.:)

offthepaper
June 21, 2006, 12:20 PM
You know, I just can't get over the fact that the previous Police Chief in NO went and resigned near the height of the disater. The water was still flooding the streets, people still stuck on rooftops and the head cop decides THIS is a good time to seek other employment?
That has always struck me as "odd". Likely more to the NO saga than we know.:barf:

ProficientRifleman
June 21, 2006, 12:39 PM
IHmmmmm? Anyone?

ProficientRifleman
June 21, 2006, 12:45 PM
The above post was meant for the NOLA videos thread.

My mistake for posting it on this one.

wqbang
June 21, 2006, 12:46 PM
"What Happened To The Gangs of New Orleans?"

"Before Katrina, New Orleans had a murder rate 10 times worse than the U.S. average. The killers evacuated too. Tracing the criminal exodus."

http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1194016,00.html

xcheck
June 21, 2006, 12:55 PM
You know, I just can't get over the fact that the previous Police Chief in NO went and resigned near the height of the disater. The water was still flooding the streets, people still stuck on rooftops and the head cop decides THIS is a good time to seek other employment?
That has always struck me as "odd". Likely more to the NO saga than we know.


You think it might be even more odd that he announced his resignation just two days after Judge Jay Zaney approved the temporary restraining order concerning firearms seizures? Not just two days later, but on a Sunday, when Hurricane Rita was in full effect.

Kurush
June 21, 2006, 01:54 PM
"What Happened To The Gangs of New Orleans?"

"Before Katrina, New Orleans had a murder rate 10 times worse than the U.S. average. The killers evacuated too. Tracing the criminal exodus."

http://www.time.com/time/archive/pre...194016,00.html

From the article:

For example, last month, under threat of a lawsuit by the National Rifle Association, police began redistributing guns that had been confiscated as an emergency measure after Katrina. So far, 47 out of a stockpile of 942 have been returned. FEMA assistance is expected to drop in the next several months, which could also incite crime.

:fire:

wqbang
June 21, 2006, 02:07 PM
Notice how the couple of anti-gun parts of the article lend nothing to the rest of the basis article. They are just thrown in for good measure to please the editors of Time. Take it with a grain of salt because it is all but expected.

Aside from those, the article has good insight into the true reasons crime is so bad in NO and why Houston was more effective in handling it when it moved there.

Mongo the Mutterer
June 21, 2006, 02:38 PM
From the same Time article:

But when police interviewed the suspects, they suddenly understood why New Orleans was so violent. No matter what police said, they couldn't get the suspects to talk. They had no leverage because no one took their threats seriously. It was a logical response: in New Orleans, 93% of people arrested from 2003 to 2004 never went to prison. "It was a real eye-opening experience," says Sergeant Harris. "People born and raised in Houston seem to have an understanding of consequences, of punishment. You can show them the options, and they start thinking, Wow, maybe I should start cooperating." With New Orleans evacuees, Sergeant Harris says, "there is no baseline. They have no concept of consequence."

It was the first time the Houston police had heard the phrase "60-day homicide." Suspects would say, "This ain't nothing but a 60-day homicide," meaning that if they kept quiet for 60 days, they would walk--just as they had too often in New Orleans. So Houston police started letting evacuees spend a few days in jail before questioning them in depth. While they waited, the suspects talked with other inmates and had court appearances--which did not end with release. Eventually, for some, the reality of Texas law began to sink in. "As they stay here more, they seem to talk more," Sergeant Harris says.let that sink in folks... a "60-day homicide".

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