Gun cleaning accident


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ApexinM3
June 19, 2006, 03:08 PM
I hear of these stories from time to time but still can't figure out how they happen. The only answer I can come up with is that the fundamental rules of firearm safety are being ignored. Such a shame a life was lost due to carelessness. :banghead:

One question though: how does one clean a loaded gun? I thought the round in the chamber kind of blocks cleaning the barrel. Thoughts???

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200128,00.html

Tennessee Dad Accidentally Shoots, Kills Son on Father's Day Eve
Monday, June 19, 2006

OLIVER SPRINGS, Tenn. Authorities said a 23-year-old man died after his father accidentally shot him while cleaning a handgun on the eve of Father's Day.

David Spoon Jr. was shot in the chest by David Spoon Sr. around 9 p.m. Saturday when the father was apparently cleaning the gun on his front porch and it discharged, said Roane County sheriff's officials.

Neighbors heard the shot and ran over to the Spoons' house. They tried to give the young man CPR but could not revive him. He was pronounced dead at the scene.

Authorities said there were several witnesses to the incident and no charges are being filed against the father.

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Henry Bowman
June 19, 2006, 04:03 PM
Are you elegible for a Darwin Award if instead of killing or sterilizing yourself, you take your offspring out of the gene pool?:scrutiny:

Leatherneck
June 19, 2006, 04:12 PM
I expect that 99% of the time "cleaning the gun" equates to "fooling with the gun."

TC

ApexinM3
June 19, 2006, 04:30 PM
Are you elegible for a Darwin Award if instead of killing or sterilizing yourself, you take your offspring out of the gene pool?

Probably not, sadly; I think it states that one must remove themselves from the genepool & therfore no longer able to reproduce. I like your thinking, though!:D

Snake Eyes
June 19, 2006, 04:33 PM
I'm still waiting for some one to tell me how to take down a Glock for cleaning without violating the Four Rules.

My impression of the multitude of Glock "Cleaning Accidents" is they are a result of a brain fart--specifically, reversing the "drop mag, clear chamber" process.

But the fact remains that you can't take down a Glock without pulling the trigger first.

Henry Bowman
June 19, 2006, 04:44 PM
I'm still waiting for some one to tell me how to take down a Glock for cleaning without violating the Four Rules.

My impression of the multitude of Glock "Cleaning Accidents" is they are a result of a brain fart--specifically, reversing the "drop mag, clear chamber" process.
Drop mag.
Move mag away from you and Glock.
Clear chamber.
Clear chamber again and lock slide back.
Look into chamber to assure clear.
Lood down mag well to see that it is empty.
Stick finger in mag well to prove empty.
Drop slide and point in a direction that if the bullet fairy reloaded the chamber in the time between dropping the slide and chamber closing, no one would get injured.
Pull trigger. Click. (*crickets chirping*)


I do not believe that this process is overly cautious nor burdensome. After it clean and reloaded -- don't fiddle with it.

ball3006
June 19, 2006, 05:01 PM
when the cleaning rod would not go down the barrel, the guy would look to see what the obstruction was...........It is not an accident, it is stupidity.........How does anyone know if it was a Glock, or not? A Glock is just a gun, like any other gun, it is LOADED UNTIL YOU LOOK TO SEE IF IT IS NOT........What is so hard about that..........chris3

shooter94
June 19, 2006, 05:35 PM
Accidental death by cleaning a gun...is b.s. It's suicide, plain and simple.

Henry Bowman
June 19, 2006, 05:43 PM
It's suicide, plain and simple.Except in the reported case, he shot his son.:uhoh:

silverlance
June 19, 2006, 05:50 PM
dad killed son in heated argument and now the family says it was a "cleaning accident".

unless he really meant to point the gun at his son "just to check if it's loaded.."

blam* yup, it is...


btw, for all you glock bashers (although imho i do agree that a pistol that reqs trigger pull to take down gives me the willies), the Mosin Nagant is another gun that requires the trigger to be pulled to disassemble.

Thing is, it's a heckuva lot harder to shoot yourself with a four foot long rifle than a g19..

shooter94
June 19, 2006, 05:56 PM
Except in the reported case, he shot his son.
__________________

Then it's murder...

rudolf
June 19, 2006, 06:05 PM
Those Glock critics always make me laugh. They tell me a revolver is cool cause it always goes bang when you pull the trigger. Next thing they say is a Glock is bad cause it goes bang when you pull the trigger. Go figure.

shermacman
June 19, 2006, 06:24 PM
It is a horrible story whether it was murder or stupidity. These events add to the gun grabbers' Book of Lists. And no, there is no part of cleaning a gun that requires a person to point the muzzle at your child and pull the trigger.

As far as the Glock issue, I dry fire practice all the time.

ArmedBear
June 19, 2006, 06:32 PM
WRT having to pull the trigger of a Glock when disassembling it, the Ruger .22 pistols have been that way for nearly 60 years now, and they're probably more common than Glocks. It's never been a problem.

My ritual is similar to what's written above.

Point the gun somewhere that, if it did go off, no one would get hurt.
Keep my fingers away from and out of the trigger guard.
Open the bolt and lock it open. Look to see if I see any rounds.
Drop the magazine.
Look again.
One more time.
Close the bolt.
Begin disassembly procedure (that includes pulling the trigger).

Simple enough.

Lou629
June 19, 2006, 06:36 PM
I have never understood how anyone could kill themselves or anyone else while 'cleaning the gun'. It not only violates the spirit & letter of all manner of the safety rules with firearms, it also violates basic common-sense. You never ever even begin to clean a gun without double & triple checking that the thing is unloaded first. It could not get any simpler easier or safer than that.
There may be a good bit more to this story than we have been told, or may ever learn. Were they drinking? Were they fighting? Is there some sort of an ongoing 'family feud'? We'll probably never know.

Jim Watson
June 19, 2006, 06:48 PM
Shot "while cleaning a gun" is often a coverup for suicide/murder, or an even worse case of negligence inviting prosecution. I am automatically suspicious of any such report.

leadcounsel
June 19, 2006, 06:53 PM
Others have got it right.

"Shot self cleaning gun" is a cover up for suicide. There are MANY reasons for this including public opinion and INSURANCE premiums (accidental death pays, suicide does not).

"Shot another person" cleaning gun is almost always a cover up for murder. There are many reasons for this, obviously the most important include legal charges.

pax
June 19, 2006, 06:55 PM
I'm still waiting for some one to tell me how to take down a Glock for cleaning without violating the Four Rules.
The Four Rules:

1) All guns are always loaded.

2) Do not point the firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy.

3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target.

4) Be sure of your target (and what's beyond/behind/around it).

In order to shoot his son, the fellow in the news managed to violate all four of the rules. Although we don't even know whether the firearm in question was a Glock, Glock-bashers always blame the firearm design whenever this comes up. So let's discuss: how do you clean a Glock without violating the Four Rules?

Rule One means that you never do anything with an allegedly unloaded gun that you would not do with it if you knew it was loaded. This is the cardinal rule, and all others follow naturally from it. So when you pick up your Glock to clean it, you treat it with every ounce of respect you would give it if you knew it was loaded and would fire if the trigger were pulled.

Rule Two means that when you carry your Glock to the cleaning area, you maintain contant awareness of where the muzzle is pointing. Just because you are preparing to clean the gun does not mean that it is no longer a gun. Rule Two also means that when you are ready to disassemble the gun, you do not point it at your dog, your left hand, your firstborn child, or your wife's favorite and most expensive piece of furniture. You never allow the firearm to point at anything you are not willing to destroy, nor at any human beings who aren't on your better-dead list.

Rule Three means that you do not put your finger on the trigger until you have deliberately picked out the optimal spot for a bullet to land. The Glock is not pointed in some random direction when you pull the trigger. Rather, you have deliberately considered which spot in the area would be the most acceptable place to put a bullet, and you point the Glock at that spot and at that spot only before you ever allow your finger to rest upon the trigger.

Rule Four means that when you choose that spot, you'd darn well better remember that interior walls don't stop bullets. If you need to build a solid backstop in order to have a safe place to disassemble the Glock in your home, you do so.

And that's how you disassemble a Glock while obeying the Four Rules.

pax

GeorgiaGlocker
June 19, 2006, 07:10 PM
This guy should be prosecuted. There is no excuse for what he did. As far as cleaning a Glock goes...it is quite simple. Make sure the gun is unloaded! I have no trouble pulling the trigger as part of the process to clean my Glock. Why? Because I double check to make sure it is unloaded. Why should that be a problem? I just don't see it.

gezzer
June 19, 2006, 09:50 PM
And just where are the 4 rules chiseled in stone or inlaid in gold? Use some common sense.

Pull the magazine. Eject the shell in chamber, Lock slide back, look in chamber, stick little finger in chamber, it's empty drop slide, point gun at a good backstop, pull trigger. Remember their cartridges not Mexican jumping beans.

I love the Glock haters no common sense whatever. If you cannot follow the above don't touch guns period because you are not ready. To bad college does not teach common sense or for that even high school.

MudPuppy
June 19, 2006, 09:58 PM
I saw a the 4 rules carved in stone at a gunstore a good while back.

I don't know of a small arm that requires you to point it at someone while cleaning it.

I'm fairly careful, but found I had a bullet in the chamber when I thought I didnt a couple of years ago. Fortunately there was no ND and it was never pointed at anyone, but very sobering indeed. A second's lapse in judgment is unforging.

I didn't have the benifit of an older person to bring me up with the proper safety lessons and got my first exposure in boot camp--I hope to do better by my kids.

sevesteen
June 19, 2006, 11:51 PM
When I'm done at the range, I run a boresnake up through the magwell, then out the barrel to clean the feedramp as well as the barrell. I've decided to get another boresnake for my home cleaning kit--Not only a decent first step in cleaning, but I can't use my normal method if there's either a magazine or chambered round.

Kentak
June 20, 2006, 12:39 AM
I'm still waiting for some one to tell me how to take down a Glock for cleaning without violating the Four Rules.

Easy. By doing what virtually every auto pistol manufacturer states you should do before cleaning their firearm. Drop the mag and rack the slide back to positively acertain that the weapon is clear. Then, and only then, you point the gun in a safe direction and pull the trigger. Proceed with take down.

K

evan price
June 20, 2006, 02:07 AM
Not just Glocks. Start hating Springfield XD's/HS2000's, they also require the trigger to be pulled before the slide comes off the grip frame.

Ya know I have stripped my Glocks (and now XD) so many times and never had a problem with shooting my kids. Let alone how many times I have stripped other guns.

Does it violate the 4 rules to clean a gun? No. But people keep getting shot. PEOPLE violate the 4 rules.

one45auto
July 6, 2006, 11:10 AM
I agree. I've never had a problem taking down my Glocks for cleaning. I just check, double-check, and triple check that the chamber is empty and then point the gun in a safe direction before pulling the trigger. Easy.

Shooting someone else while "cleaning" a firearm takes a great deal of stupidity.

HankB
July 6, 2006, 12:53 PM
Shot "while cleaning a gun" is often a coverup for suicide/murder, or an even worse case of negligence inviting prosecution. I am automatically suspicious of any such report.+1.

I've thought about this quite a bit over the years, and I just don't see how anyone could "accidentally" shoot themselves or another while "cleaning" a gun. Carelessness, idiotic drunken horseplay, and just plain ignorance can, and certainly have, resulted in tragedy.

But cleaning a gun? :scrutiny:

Uh-uh.

geekWithA.45
July 6, 2006, 01:30 PM
At best, it's "shot during pre cleaning administrative handling while failing to observe two or more safety rules".

Andras
July 6, 2006, 01:35 PM
I have to pull the trigger on my Taurus 24/7 Pro to take the slide off. I can't imagine not clearing it properly first.

Sistema1927
July 6, 2006, 01:55 PM
Add the Kahr pistols to the list of those requiring a trigger pull to disassemble.

"Shot while cleaning" is either:

1) Screwing around/lack of care/negligence, or
2) Homicide, or
3) Suicide.

confed sailor
July 6, 2006, 01:55 PM
btw, for all you glock bashers (although imho i do agree that a pistol that reqs trigger pull to take down gives me the willies), the Mosin Nagant is another gun that requires the trigger to be pulled to disassemble.

the bolt release for MN 91/30 is the trigger, however you dont pull the trigger untill the bolt is open and pulled all the way back.
A chambered round could not be fired as the cocking knob is locked by the bolt body, and the firing pin is about 4inches from the primer retracted inside the bolt face.

thats a big difference from the Glock and Sigmas, no offence.

progunner1957
July 6, 2006, 02:01 PM
As the now-famous DEA agent said, "Now, I'm the only one in this room professional enough to carry a 40 caliber Glock."

Followed by BOOM!

Followed by, "D'OOOOW!":D

Nathaniel Firethorn
July 6, 2006, 02:16 PM
Some extra safety wrinkles:

I stick a finger in the chamber as well as visually inspecting it.

Also, before squeezing the trigger, I point it downward at a 6x6 beam that's attached to the cellar floor. If I splinter that, I won't really mind, and it would reduce the chance of ricochet over just pointing it at the concrete.

- NF

dfaugh
July 6, 2006, 02:43 PM
Until recently I would've agreed than it SHOULD be impossible to have an "accident" while cleaning a firearm. BUT...

A month or so ago I went to the range and used my Marlin Model 60 (tube-fed, semi-auto, .22). I generally load/shoot 10 rounds at a time. Don't count shots, as bolt locks back when empty. I finished my last set of 10, and placed the gun in the case.

When I got home I started cleaning the gun. I can't tell you the exact sequence, but it was something like this: Run a patch or 2 w/ Hoppes down the barrel, then dry patch then light oil. Release bolt. Clean bolt and bolt face(requires opening an closing bolt). Remove, wipe down, lubricate and replace magazine tube. Lubricate, lightly, the action, including pulling the trigger AT LEAST ONCE, to allow trigger to move so I can put a drop of oil in there.

In short I worked the action at least 3 times, and dry fired it twice, somewhere along the way. And when I was all done, I opened the action once again, and heard a sickening noise as a LIVE round fell onto the floor at my feet. I have NO idea where that was "hiding" inside the gun (suspect the magazine tube, somehow), and I'm STILL trying to figure it out.

Now, the one thing I did, as always, was keep the muzzle pointed away from anyone (Actually I was alone. But, of the the 4 rules, this should be the most important, because if all else fails, at least it minimizes the consequences). So, had the gun discharged, I probably might've shot my laptop, as the gun pointed in that general direction.

It may sound stupid, but this was very scary for me, as I'm downright PARANOID about safe handling of firearms.I've beaten the 4 rules into my kids heads for years, and I'm proud of how careful and responsible they are. And, obviously, the guy in this case didn't do that.

larry_minn
July 6, 2006, 03:25 PM
Yrs ago a retired Officer was talking to me and a (situation) came up where a gent died while (cleaning his guns) The Retired Officer told me it took them 10 minutes to find his gun cleaning gear. BUT THEY FOUND IT (and set it out)
The gent was well thought of and they didn't want his family to go thru the whole (he committed suicide why didn't I see it comming/I should have done something/maybe its my fault/etc/etc/etc) thing. Said it was not uncommon.

GeorgiaGlocker
July 7, 2006, 03:28 PM
If you can't trust yourself, who can you trust?

c_yeager
July 7, 2006, 03:33 PM
"I was cleaning my gun and it went off" is pretty much the universal statement made by people who were irresponsibly goofing off and someone got hurt or killed. It is also a good excuse for murder, and often is published by the family of a person who commited suicide. I doubt that very many people get hurt while actually cleaning a firearm.

On the other hand, I almost lost an eye when I sent an extractor flying out of a buckmark with enough force to bounce off three walls of my living room as well as the ceiling, before coming to a rest right at my feet (that was a lucky day in a lot of ways).

XDKingslayer
July 7, 2006, 04:00 PM
"Shot self cleaning gun" is a cover up for suicide. There are MANY reasons for this including public opinion and INSURANCE premiums (accidental death pays, suicide does not).


Not necessarily. An acquaintance of mine put a nice hole in his hand, with no desire to kill himself, cleaning his pistol.

He pulled the slide back, emptied the chamber, closed the slide, and proceeded to disassemble the pistol not realizing his brainfart of not dropping the full magazine.

He also has a hole in his wall as a reminder.

LSUfreak25
July 7, 2006, 04:04 PM
Did you hear about the guy who was smoking POT through a shotgun and forgot to unload it? BAM there goes 70% of his head!!

asiparks
July 7, 2006, 06:25 PM
no, 'cos that was a scene out of, I think, "Narc"....

Malone LaVeigh
July 7, 2006, 07:22 PM
I don't know anything about Glocks, but my XD requires me to pull the trigger for dissassembly, but only AFTER I:

1) Lock back the slide.

2) Twist the release lever thingy to the upright position.

3) Bring the slide back forward.

I suppose it would be possible to chamber a round in the process, but you would have to really not be paying attention when you locked back the slide. That is, if you completely missed the first step, which is to MAKE SURE THE GUN IS UNLOADED.

nipprdog
July 7, 2006, 08:05 PM
I'm still waiting for some one to tell me how to take down a Glock for cleaning without violating the Four Rules.

:rolleyes:

LoneCoon
July 7, 2006, 11:21 PM
Yes, you do have to pull the trigger on a mosin nagant to clean it, but the bold i open when you do it. How could that possibly lead to a negilgant discharge?

Teufelhunden
July 8, 2006, 02:57 PM
Drop slide and point in a direction that if the bullet fairy reloaded the chamber in the time between dropping the slide and chamber closing, no one would get injured.

...and violating this is the major reason people get hurt by guns that require the trigger be pulled before the slide comes off the frame. Such an action is no worse than dry-firing, but people for some reason treat it differently.

Point the gun at something that you don't mind destroying every time you pull the trigger!

-Teuf

Oleg Volk
July 8, 2006, 03:31 PM
...why insurance companies are anti-gun. Every time they get stuck paying on life insurance of "gun cleaners" who really killed themselves, they get an incentive to avoid gun-owning clients. If suicides were listed honestly, they wouldn't have had to pay out.

akodo
July 8, 2006, 07:28 PM
Apparently some of you read the finger on trigger rule differently than I.

It does not say 'never touch or pull the trigger' because if it did, how could you ever targetshoot, or dryfire?

I read it as "Never touch the trigger until you are ready for the firearm to discharge" In most cases, target practice, this means with sights on target. In the case of both cleaning and dryfiring and new shooter familiarization, this means pointed in an absolutely safe direction. If you cannot point the firearm in an absolutely safe direction, you need to abort your plans for cleaning, dryfiring, or teaching.

gezzer
July 8, 2006, 09:58 PM
Again the four rules are not chiseled in stone.

Duh!

Use common sense, if you can not,STOP using firearms as you are an idiot with an accident waiting to happen. :cuss: :banghead:

IN the case of the marlin 60, tube feeds are notorius for having a round stick in the feeding tube.

Cure paint the folower bright orannge, untill you see bright orange it is loaded. Then pull the feed tube and work the action 6 times. Then untill the bolt is removed consider the gun laoded.

And this type of cover-ups is the main reason...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...why insurance companies are anti-gun. Every time they get stuck paying on life insurance of "gun cleaners" who really killed themselves, they get an incentive to avoid gun-owning clients. If suicides were listed honestly, they wouldn't have had to pay out.

Absoultly!!!!

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