No firearms at my workplace.


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PinnedAndRecessed
June 19, 2006, 06:20 PM
I signed a work agreement with a new company, today. I'll be a self-employed independant contractor, but will be spending time at the home office periodically.

But I was surprised when, signing a ten page contract, the very first prohibition was, "No Firearms On Company Property." It was the very first item. Right before, "No pornography on company facilities."

Now, state law says that the above prohibition re firearms cannot apply to parking areas. That has already been tested in state court.

It's in the manual under section 1290.22. Theres an addendum: "It is unlawful for a person with or without a license to carry a concealed weapon onto property where an owner has barred weapons, with the exception of transporting and storing a firearm in a locked vehicle on any property set aside for any vehicle."

Also, under section 1290.4, paragraph 2, item 'b': "Licensee's may carry on the following: Any property adjacent to a structure, building, or office space in which concealed weapons are prohibited.

That's so, if someone is carrying, they can leave the CCW in their vehicle with no repurcussions. That's true for all parking lots except schools.

It kind of stinks, though, since I just completed the state educational requirements for my CCW. I haven't even received my CCW license yet. I didn't realize my new company was like that.

But the very first item? And before pornography?

Man, people are ignorant.

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Lou629
June 19, 2006, 06:23 PM
This isn't the post office you're going to work for, is it? :evil:
In all seriousness for a moment, maybe they've had an 'incident' or two in the past, which got it to be #1 on their agenda with new employees. Maybe you should google your new firm and see if they've had some unwelcome headlines generated @ the headquarters?

carterbeauford
June 19, 2006, 06:25 PM
Two words: deep concealment.

If you deeply conceal the right sub-compact 9MM or .380 NO ONE should be able to tell it is there. Unless they use metal detectors, you should be good to go! While my company is 2A-friendly, no one knows when I am carrying.

Low-Sci
June 19, 2006, 06:31 PM
I wonder how many workplaces allow concealed weapons in their building. I'm willing to bet not very many openly allow it, and most that do allow it have an "I don't want to or have to know" policy.

But that's purely speculation.

I have 2 jobs right now, neither of which would allow me to carry a firearm at work, even if CCW was legal. They're just those kind of places, which I imagine most places are.

On the other hand, if they said no firearms, did they say no OC? Cuz if they didn't...

PinnedAndRecessed
June 19, 2006, 06:37 PM
maybe they've had an 'incident' or two in the past,

Well, I asked the office manager if something had happened. He said, "No."

This is Tulsa. And there are more and more signs going up to that effect.

They just don't get it, do they? If someone is reckless enough to break the law with a firearm, viz., to shoot somebody, these businesses don't realize a sign isn't going to stop it.

They also don't get it that CCW holders have to jump through some hoops in order to receive the "right" to carry lawfully. We're not the type to misbehave.

(Funny though. You've got to jump through their hoops in order to be able to exercise your 2nd amendment rights.)

Bruce333
June 19, 2006, 06:48 PM
Two words: deep concealment.

If you deeply conceal the right sub-compact 9MM or .380 NO ONE should be able to tell it is there.I've considered this...

The company I work for has always had a Corporate policy against weapons on the premises, the local policy specifically says firearms are prohibited (company headquarters is in Illinois, if that tells you anything).

We have had 2 incidents here of people taking hostages at gunpoint. One was a friend of a fired employee. The other an angry boyfriend arguing at work with his girlfriend (they both worked together), turns out he'd been carying the whole time he was employed (had a prior conviction for concealed without a permit too). Prior to these 2 incidents, we had another angry ex-boyfriend (non-employee) try to beat his ex with a piece of rebar.

The company's response was to erect signs at the entrances!
"firearms and weapons are phohibited on these premises"
In effect telling everyone that we're unarmed and easy victims! :banghead:

kikr
June 19, 2006, 07:09 PM
quote from carterbeauford
"Two words: deep concealment.

If you deeply conceal the right sub-compact 9MM or .380 NO ONE should be able to tell it is there. Unless they use metal detectors, you should be good to go! While my company is 2A-friendly, no one knows when I am carrying."


Great Idea, but isn't it ILLEGAL? I agree that having to be "permitted" to carry a firearm or weapon is asinine, but what is the difference between BG and a person carrying legally?

Stiletto Null
June 19, 2006, 07:11 PM
"Illegal" depends on whether the signs meet spec, right?

I figure I'd rather get fired for defending my self/coworkers/friends successfully than quit after helplessly watching something bad happen.

Roadwild17
June 19, 2006, 07:22 PM
I go through guards, metal detectors, and dogs. I canít carry ANYTHING. Not even a pocket knife.

KINGMAX
June 19, 2006, 07:23 PM
Check in the code-of-conduct area of your employees manual/handbook. I am sure that it is in there somewhere. :scrutiny:

My thing is that having to comply w/ my employer's rules of not having a gun or knife on company property. I have to travel between two very large cities. If something happens during my commute, I am left unarmed. I start to work & return home at dark during the fall and winter seasons. I don't like coming in to a house that has been unattended all day. I want something in my hand when I enter. :what:

Larry Ashcraft
June 19, 2006, 07:30 PM
"Illegal" depends on whether the signs meet spec, right?
That depends on the state laws. I understand Texas has their "30.06" signs that make carrying in a place of business illegal. I don't know about OK.

However, in Colorado, there is no sign a business can put up that makes CCW illegal. Against company policy, maybe, but not illegal.

bromdenlong
June 19, 2006, 07:36 PM
The difference between a bad guy and a person carrying illegally is the morality or immorality of their behavior. The BG is there to threaten, rob, assault, rape or kill. The person carrying illegally or against company policy with no intent other than to protect themselves or others is a good person breaking a really bad law or rule.

carterbeauford
June 19, 2006, 07:39 PM
However, in Colorado, there is no sign a business can put up that makes CCW illegal. Against company policy, maybe, but not illegal.

Right, even if you are in a state where posting carries the weight of the law, how are you planning on being discovered? I am not condoning doing anything illegal, but if you are concealing properly, you run an extremely low risk of being discovered unless your company uses metal detectors.

IMHO there is a distinguishable difference between a BG who commits, say armed robbery and a BG who conceals a weapon for his own protection. Both may be illegal in various jurisdictions but who runs a greater risk of being caught? I was just making a suggestion.

George S.
June 19, 2006, 07:45 PM
While it sounds on the surface that your company policy goes against state law, you did sign the contract and that prohibition against carrying/possessing firearms on company property is most likely a condition of employment.

If you get caught, you might be terminated immediately or possibly after management does some sort of review of your work or performance and decides that you can be terminated for some other reason so their lawyers don't have to fight your lawyer in court over the contract provision on weapons.

How you value your job over a conflict in the law and your contract is completely up to you. IMHO, if you really want this job then follow the rules that you agreed to by signing the contract.

Does the contract have a stipulation that allows your vehicle to be searched while it's on the company property? If something like that is in there, then avoid carrying your weapon in the car during work hours.

Sunray
June 19, 2006, 08:29 PM
"...I signed a work agreement..." This says it all. You apparently signed it without reading it or having it looked at by your lawyer. Rule number of contract work is to read or have your lawyer/accountant look at the contract/work agreement before you sign it. You may find you're working for less than minimum wage as well as not being allowed to carry in the office.
Mind you, since you're not actually in the office all the time it really doesn't matter.

DoubleTapDrew
June 19, 2006, 08:34 PM
In these totalitarian companies where they can search your car, what if you have one of those gunsafes bolted in the car? If they told me to open it I'd say it was installed by the previous owner and I didn't have a key. Maybe you could get one of those.
I think the whole don't ask, don't tell, don't print is the best policy. Luckily we don't have enforcable signs here so the worst they can do is ask me to leave. When I hear "No Firearms Allowed" I insert my own word: "No (declared) Firearms Allowed". I have a feeling they usually aren't directed towards CCW holders anyway and are more of a CYA legal deal.

SaxonPig
June 19, 2006, 10:30 PM
We can disagree but the employer has the right to make the policy. It may be as simple as "advice of counsel" so they can claim innocence if there is ever an incident involving a firearm.

I am prohibited from carrying at work due to state law. If I am caught packing it's not just termination it's criminal charges. The AG has issued an opinion that the ban only applies within the buildings and not on the grounds or parking areas. I leave my S&W 659 under the seat cable-locked to the frame and take the mag with me.

SomeKid
June 19, 2006, 10:58 PM
While only a college job, I love my company. I open carry in periodically, sometimes even have my AR in the car (after a range trip) and nobody cares. One of the office staffers even shows off his 1911s to me - on the job. Life is good.

Standing Wolf
June 19, 2006, 11:42 PM
Jobs are a lot easier to replace than lives.

bratch
June 20, 2006, 12:08 AM
Great Idea, but isn't it ILLEGAL? I agree that having to be "permitted" to carry a firearm or weapon is asinine, but what is the difference between BG and a person carrying legally?

Not illegal in OK until you refuse to leave the premises if asked and then the charge is trespassing.

I also recently started a new job and upon looking at the handbook noticed a no firearms policy. It was the first time I'd seen one at an employer but doesn't surprise me looking back as this is a large integrated energy company with multiple nuke plants.

Walter
June 20, 2006, 12:10 AM
The company I work for prohibits any firearms on "The Property".
Okay, I won't carry it into the building.

They also claim the right to randomly search employees' vehicles.
No reference to the fact that two or three different companies share
the parking lot.

I submitted to the drug test as a requirement of employment. I
submitted to the "random" drug tests they do.

The day they tell me to unlock my vehicle for a search is the day I
quit and tell them to go to hell.

Walter

PinnedAndRecessed
June 20, 2006, 12:23 AM
You apparently signed it without reading

No, I read it. It's pretty much a standard requirement for many businesses here. I just don't like it.

It'll be ok, though. Being self-employed I'll do the bulk of my office work at home and will only periodically have to go to the office.

Hazwaste
June 20, 2006, 12:38 AM
My company posts the parking lot. We can't even keep our firearms locked in our trunk because senior management told us that one of us might go postal at the spur of the moment. I'm not kidding. The Senior V.P. of Administration actually made that statement to a group of us managers during an orientation session on the new policy. :mad:

Bigct
June 20, 2006, 01:03 AM
Every company I have ever worked for, has stated that the do not allow weapons of any kind on company property. It is to cover there rear end in case there is a problem or accident.

IE... Joe blow idiot brings his new handgun to show it off at the office and it goes off and hurts an employee. Employee then sues company for millions for "allowing" said idiot to bring the gun to work.

carpettbaggerr
June 20, 2006, 01:15 AM
Guess what?

They'll still get sued. (If their pockets are deep enough, that is.)

DoubleTapDrew
June 20, 2006, 01:35 AM
I believe most companies say that to cover themselves in case of an accident so they can at least say it was in their handbook that weapons aren't allowed (like posted above about a guy that was just soo sure his handgun was unloaded).
I'm fortunate where I work. We even used to have a FFL in case customers wanted a new piece (before the red tape got annoying).
The car searching thing blows me away. If they tried that with me I'd let them know they are breaking into my property and repel boarders appropriately :evil:
My company posts the parking lot. We can't even keep our firearms locked in our trunk because senior management told us that one of us might go postal at the spur of the moment. I'm not kidding. The Senior V.P. of Administration actually made that statement to a group of us managers during an orientation session on the new policy.
Did you tell him the only thing that makes you go postal is people taking away your rights? :D

Quinch
June 20, 2006, 01:56 AM
S&W 340, in a Desantis Nemesis holster.

I wear shorts and a T-shirt to work. (Kind of hot here)




I'm pretty sure my employer can't pat me down. :)



That said, P&R, I thought you were going OD green?

Roadwild17
June 20, 2006, 11:07 AM
In Louisiana you car is an extension of your house, so they even said "we can look all around and even underneath, but if you dont let us in your car, we cant get in."

leadcounsel
June 20, 2006, 11:54 AM
It's an interesting reaction for humans to want to DISARM legal gun owners when or if there is a threat of violence by bad guys.... I just cannot reconcile this approach.

It's like the saying "throwing the baby out with the bathwater."

And, what's even more ignorant is that the anti-gun complains that guns are stolen and used in crime yet their policies of disarming gun owners and forcing them to keep their guns in their unattended cars ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTES to gun theft. DUH!!!! All criminals need to do is locate a business parking lot and feast on the unattended guns.

That said, you have several options before you sign the contract.

1) Negotiate the terms -- level of success is dependant on the business. Larger corporations are less likely to concede on this point but a small business with a reasonable owner could be pursuaded to scrap this term.

2) Research the laws to see what, if any, LEGAL ramifications your suffer if you sign the agreement and then breach it. Is it a trespass offense, job termination, violation of the law, etc.?

3) Keep quite and sign the agreement -- Don't tell people you carry, don't draw attention to the clause, and fly under the radar. Don't carry for a couple days just to see the environment to ensure you can carry (metal detectors, dress codes, etc.). Once you feel comfortable with your carry practicality, and provided you're comfortable with whatever ramifications you determine there are if caught, consider keeping your mouth shut about it, playing along, and deep concealment. You're likely to never need it and never get discovered so it's a non-issue. If you're caught, you're prepared for the ramifications whatever they happen to be.

S&WIowegan
June 20, 2006, 01:11 PM
Whatever you decide to do, i.e. carry anyway, leave it in the car, etc. just don't EVER talk about it with ANYONE. This is really the key to having the best odds of staying out of trouble. Trust no one on this kind of question.

My work totally bans firearms and even goes so far as to block internet access to any gun-related sites they can think of (haven't gotten THR yet). The thinking is simple:

1. It makes hoplophobes feel good.

2. They think it makes a good defense argument if a shooting occurs. I would like to see a victim sue the company that banned PD carry.

3. Senior execs have a fear that an employee might try to give them what they deserve.:cuss:

Bob.

PinnedAndRecessed
June 20, 2006, 01:47 PM
Is it a trespass offense, job termination, violation of the law, etc.?


It's a job termination offense, which is curious since I'm not an employee. I'm technically (for IRS purposes) a self-employed independant contractor.

It's no big deal. I'll work out of my home, that's all. It just irks me that I'm seeing "No Guns" signs popping up all over the place. Like, the sign will make any difference to someone who is disposed to nefarious activity, anyway.

mp510
June 20, 2006, 02:34 PM
P&R, Is it possible for you to (in the future) have some sort of counter-clause in the contract that the companies who desire your services will allow you to carry your piece and forbear their right of preventing you from doing such (assuming that you cvan legally CC).

PinnedAndRecessed
June 20, 2006, 02:52 PM
Is it possible for you to (in the future) have some sort of counter-clause in the contract that the companies who desire your services will allow you to carry your piece

With this company, probably not. It's pretty big.

But, the answer to your question is, undoubtedly, yes.

Rotorflyr
June 20, 2006, 02:58 PM
It just irks me that I'm seeing "No Guns" signs popping up all over the place. Like, the sign will make any difference to someone who is disposed to nefarious activity, anyway.

True, but those signs give everyone a warm fuzzy feeling and a sense of security previously unknown to man (and woman)! :p

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