No knock Vs Castle Doctrine


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AK47Heaven
June 20, 2006, 12:21 AM
Ok, we all know what happened in New Orleans in the wake of hurricane Katrina. To sum things up, LEOs went door to door confiscating lawfully owned firearms from homeowners. Nothing short of removing these facist pigs from their positions of authority and bringing them up on charges of high treason against the People of the United States will make things right again. Our 2nd Amendment right is our most precious right, since all of the other rights we enjoy are contingent upon it remaining inviolate. Now, the supreme court has ruled that LE need not announce themselves before entering a private residence. For the sake of argument, lets say its 2:00 am, and the police have mistakenly decided to raid YOUR residence. As your dogs are going crazy, you hear your door getting kicked in and you grab your gun, thinking your home is being invaded by criminals. In the ensuing chaos, youve killed one or more LEOs. Supposing you survive the encounter, what exactly is your liability? Can you be charged with any crimes? This question is of the utmost importance and needs to be addressed post haste. If this issue has already been brought up here, my apologies. I am new to this forum. Any replies will be appreciated.




MOLON LABE

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PinnedAndRecessed
June 20, 2006, 12:26 AM
This subject has already been hashed to death here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=205760

Hoppy590
June 20, 2006, 12:28 AM
it scares me. iv heard storys of people shooting officers in the past when they failed to announce themselves, so hopefully, no knock stays what it was supposed to be ( that is, if the police recieve a 911 from your location they wont knock but WILL anounce "police!"). im un aware on specifics of the decision.

how ever, if the police do a raid on your home, unless your police are extremely incompitant i doubt the cop is gunna be the one who ends up shot ;)

AK47Heaven
June 20, 2006, 01:10 AM
So it has! Thanks Pin. Oh,and Hoppy..are you refering to the extremely competent LEOs who raided the wrong address? You mean those cops?

ProficientRifleman
June 20, 2006, 01:53 AM
Yes, in that situation you will be charged with capital murder. You will probably be charged with a slew of other crimes. Those who wield the power of state will make sure that EVERYONE gets the massage. You cannot have your way with the Government.

If you are acquitted of all criminal charges, it will be because you had a hot-shot lawyer to defend you. Gerry Spence comes to mind.

Shield529
June 20, 2006, 02:25 AM
Not saying stupid violent threats on the Inet to sound big will help you get the not guilty verdict you want. Things you say on the net can be used in court.
Not the highroad but I am sick and tired of hearing what will happen if swat raids your house by mistake. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Mistaken raids may happen 4-5 times a year in this country, out of thousands and thousands of raids. You will be bitten by a snake and struck by lightening while dying of west nile virus before it happens to you. IF you are the unforturate person it happens to all you will hear is glass break, big bangs with blinding light and it will be over and done with before you get the big hogleg out.
Cops do not I repeat not want to raid innocent people. We put criminals in jail, do mistake happen YES, do bad cops exist YES but the chances of encountering one is small. Just ask your self, have you or anyone you know in person been the victim of such a raid? If no good you still will not be.

Posts like this are just trying to stir the pot and raise tensions. It is childish and pointless.

beerslurpy
June 20, 2006, 02:34 AM
I think you need to calm down and start this thread over again. There are some important legal issues in here (that LEOs are well aware of) and the situation is not as bleak as many assume.

edit: I cant find the words to express my idea, I'll try again later

Zen21Tao
June 20, 2006, 02:36 AM
Now, the supreme court has ruled that LE need not announce themselves before entering a private residence.

I hate to have to keep saying this but this is absolutely false.

Read the actual ruling for yourself:
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/05pdf/04-1360.pdf

1. The case had nothing to do with no knock warrents it involved a particular Knock & Announce warrent.

2. The case wasn't over whether or not it is ok to violate K&A warrents it was over whether or not the exclusionary rule allowed for suppression of evidence in the violation in one particular such case where the anouncement was made, time was given for a responce but the physical knock wasn't performed.

3. The court held that the necessary (but not alone sufficent) component, that the violation had to be for the pupose of obtaining evidence that couldn't have been obtained without the violation, wasn't present in this particular case they were ruling on. Therefore, suppression of evidence was denied. THE END

The media, which people acknowledge to be very inaccurate when it comes to reporting on guns, completly mischaracterized this ruling and many people here fell for their reporting "hook line and sinker." Again, I say read the ruling yourself rather than blindly accept what the media reports about it.

Otherguy Overby
June 20, 2006, 04:20 AM
Shield529:
Cops do not I repeat not want to raid innocent people. We put criminals in jail, do mistake happen YES, do bad cops exist YES but the chances of encountering one is small. Just ask your self, have you or anyone you know in person been the victim of such a raid?


I actually do know of someone. A friend of mine knew Don Scott.

http://www.fear.org/scott.html

And yes some police actually do evil heinous deeds.

AK47Heaven
June 20, 2006, 06:39 AM
Shield, whoa..back off there, Barney! Nobody is making any "stupid violent threats on the internet to sound big". And "mistaken raids may happen 4-5 times a year in this country"? I sure hope you werent trying to impress anyone with those "stats" (which by the way sound completely arbitrary and fabricated). Im sure it happens a hell of alot more often than youd care to admit. My point was that if SWAT does not announce themselves before they mistakenly kick down the wrong guy's door in the wee hours of the night/morning, the innocent homeowner would have no idea who the hell they are, so I dont want to see the poor bastard brought up on bogus charges just to cover up their incompetence when he takes action to repel the intruders (WHICH HE HAS EVERY RIGHT TO DO). So just put it down to a big, tragic mistake and let it go. Its an ACCIDENT! GET IT? ITS AN UNFORGIVABLE, UNCONSCIENABLE MISTAKE, AND THE FAULT DOES NOT LIE WITH THE INNOCENT HOMEOWNER! You had better be crystal clear on that, Barney. What would you do, Shield, if YOU were in the startled, alarmed, terrified homeowner's place? I'd bet you'd be doing your level damndest to make the intruders regret they ever darkened your doorstep. But you probably figure the right to fight back is strictly reserved for LEOs. Its important to point out that if a raid is executed on the wrong people even ONCE every 50 years its one time too many, especially if innocent people die as a result. There is just no excuse for it. If you as an LEO cant be trusted to get the correct address and not execute raids on innocent people, what the hell makes you think you deserve to wear that uniform? You sure as hell dont need to be wearing a badge and a gun in my town. Not exactly the picture of competence. And comparing getting killed in a botched raid to getting snakebit, contracting west nile or being struck by lightening is utterly ridiculous and only shows your ignorance by making such analogies. Trained, professional, heavily armed LEOs are presumed to have some control over which door they kick in, which family pets get shotgunned all over the parquet wood floor, which 5 year olds get their eardrums ruptured and their retinas burned out by flashbang grenades, and which bleary-eyed half-asleep homeowners who are reaching for the handgun in the nightstand drawer get sprayed with the MP5. It would be a tragedy for ANYONE to get injured or killed under such circumstances, whether LEO or citizen. LE has the most thankless job in the world, and most of them deserve nothing but respect. We want LE to have the tools they need to keep us all safe from the criminal element, but lets face it, the police are a reactionary force, not a preventative one. They rarely make the scene in time to rescue the victims of violent crimes. Shield, I gather from your post that you are an LEO. Ofcourse, anyone can be anything they want on the internet. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you really are an LEO. If thats the case, you have my thanks for doing a thankless, dangerous job. But if its all the same to you Shield, I'll just plan on protecting myself and my family and if LE shows up in time to help then bully for me! More than likely, LE will show up and slap the cuffs on me because I didnt wait to see if the BG was there to harm us or just abscond with my TV (see anything wrong with that picture?). I realize it must be easy for you to become jaded when you see the worst of humanity on a daily basis, but that "us vs them" attitude youve got sucks. I see LEOs as the most visible representation of government, so I'll just take this opportunity to remind you that you are a public servant...you do understand what that means? That means you work for your neighbor, the local barber, the convenience store cashier, the school janitor, the paperboy, and yes, it means you work for me too. If you should ever find yourself bristling at this truth, it'll be time for you to find another job. And futhermore, I wasnt trying to "stir the pot" or "raise tensions"...SCOTUS didnt need my help to do that. I had what I thought was an important question and I wanted to find out what other's thoughts on the matter were. Besides, as Zen pointed out, I have the facts wrong on the whole "No knock" issue anyway, so just forget I said anything.

The Real Hawkeye
June 20, 2006, 09:41 AM
I am sick and tired of hearing what will happen if swat raids your house by mistake. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Mistaken raids may happen 4-5 times a year in this country, out of thousands and thousands of raids.Yeah, but the bigger problem is the fact that cops are authorized to do it, not that they occasionally make mistakes (as horrendous as that is). I'll explain: The problem is not the high incidence of cops making a mistake (it may not, as you suggest, be that high), but the too high incidence of criminals buying FBI or DEA T-shirts and/or windbreakers, and busting into people's homes for the purpose of robbing them. This creates just enough momentary confusion as they are shouting "FEDERAL AGENTS, DROP YOUR WEAPONS!!! GET ON THE FLOOR, NOW!!!" that they can gain the advantage. Why? Because the Supreme Court says that cops can do that kind of thing. In the old days, you knew for a fact that if someone was busting in your home, weapons drawn, they were the bad guys and you are supposed to shoot them, regardless of what they are shouting, which was a great deterrent to criminals doing just that. Now, with these new rulings, that deterrent is fading fast, and we are left having to try to figure out if these are real DEA/FBI busting in or phonies who are going to tie you up and make you watch them take turns on your wife and daughters before they slit their and, finally, your throat. That is the problem with the ever-growing new police powers to disregard the right of American citizens to feel secure in their homes.

HankB
June 20, 2006, 09:58 AM
Here's a link to what one possible outcome might be - it's an incident which occured quite a while back, up in Minnesota, and occasioned quite a bit of debate at the time. (Note that the link is a police website, so that may color the commentary a bit)

http://www.mpdfederation.com/david-mack.asp

Short version: Plainclothes officers with a warrant break into home. Gunfire ensues. Homeowner calls police, is later convinced that the "perps" actually are police and surrenders. Initially convicted of assault, conviction is later overturned. One of the wounded officers dies years later from complications. Homeowner never serves a day in prison.

FWIW, TX has had numerous instances of bad guys breaking in while posing as law enforcement. If you haven't seen a bunch of marked LEO vehicles out front with lights flashing and uniformed officers milling around, these days you simply don't know who it is banging on your door.

RaetherEnt
June 20, 2006, 10:19 AM
This exact same thing happened to a very good friend of mine in Lexington, KY in 1999. She had moved into a new house (rental) in a very nice neighborhood for less than 2 months. One night at 2 in the morning, the front door came smashing down and the house was almost instantly swarming with LEO's. She was forced back down onto her bed and handcuffed for almost 2 hours while she answered questions and the LEO's tore through her personal belongings. They even went through her photo albums and made her identify people in the pictures with her.

Turns out, the individual that she rented the house from was well known by the Lexington police department as a upper level drug dealer. She had rented the house through an ad in the newspaper, and filled out all her rental information through a property management company. Never even met the individual in question. The LPD said they had the house "under surveillance" for the past six months, prompting the raid.

When it was all said and done, they paid to replace the front door. Never an apology...

Obviously, a rare circumstance. Actually, a VERY rare circumstance, but it does occasionally happen.

ApexinM3
June 20, 2006, 11:35 AM
I would think that LEOs put in a LOT of time & effort into surveillance prior to executing a search warrant. IMHO, the chances of a mistake happening do seem pretty low. LEOs are human, therfore mistakes can happen but my guess they are rare. Can they happen? Sure. Humans are not infallible.

With that in mind, the purpose of this was to figure out the legal standing of an individual SHOULD something like this happen. True, the chances are slim, but that is the point.

Shield529, I can understand why you would be on the defensive, however I think you took what AK47Heaven was asking on the extreme side. Even overreacted. Though given your line of work, I can understand why-you get shot at, yelled at, treated like dirt most of the time & probably don't get paid enough to put up with all of that, meanwhile trying to uphold the law. I applaud you for that. But I seriously doubt he was trying to offend anyone (you, for instance), rather he was trying to figure the legal implications SHOULD a situation like this occur.

And in case anyone asks why I'm defending LEOs, I am not one. FWIW...

Sindawe
June 20, 2006, 11:38 AM
Obviously, a rare circumstance. Actually, a VERY rare circumstance, but it does occasionally happen.Not rare enough unfortunately. And in too many of these bone headed mistakes made my police, innocent occupants die.Not the highroad but I am sick and tired of hearing what will happen if swat raids your house by mistake. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.Well Shield529, *I* am sick and tired of police errors or incompetence leading to the death of innocents and those responsible getting to skate when it happens. "IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN" Really? Tell that to Donald Scott, Ishmel Mena and Manuel Medina Ramirez. Oh thats right, you can't. They're dead.Mistaken raids may happen 4-5 times a year in this country, out of thousands and thousands of raids.It would seem that history proves otherwise. 11 reported mistakes in 1992. http://www.druglibrary.org/think/~jnr/botched.htmShield, whoa..back off there, Barney! AK47Heaven, welcome to THR. Noobs buys ammo, and should review the code-of-conduct (http://www.thehighroad.org/code-of-conduct.html) before posting. ;)

ball3006
June 20, 2006, 12:04 PM
quite seriously. I am hearing impared, can hear noise but very difficult to understand speech. I have a 10 million candle power spotlight wired to shine down the hall and controlled with a remote. If someone kicks down my door, they will be blinded if they enter the hall. If they shoot out the light, well, I am protecting myself........I am 100 percent law abiding, never even had a traffic ticket, so if someone kicks my door down, it will most likely be a bad guy.......chris3

Mr. James
June 20, 2006, 12:55 PM
IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN . . .

Well, in all probablility, being forced to use a concealed handgun to defend my (or a loved one's) life is not going to happen either, so I guess I'll shred my CHL and melt down my carry weapons. . .

Lurikeen pew pew
June 20, 2006, 01:03 PM
If anyone kicks down my door in the middle of the night.
I am reaching for my guns.

the end.

Art Eatman
June 20, 2006, 01:31 PM
Haven't seen much here that relates to the original post...

Enuf.

Art

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