US Marines need your help


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KC&97TA
June 21, 2006, 11:30 PM
http://cbs13.com/homepage/topstories_story_172112959.html

For those of you who don't watch the news, 7 Marines and 1 Corps Man were charged today with; Murder, Kidnapping, conspiracy, larceny and providing false official statements. Weather they're guilty or not is beyond any of our opinions.

The sad facts remains that these are young men, with the oldest of them being a Sgt, stuck in a high stress situation for months at a time, trained to kill embodied into thier brains, the life or death strugle more apperant than hunger or thirst, emotionally over welmed by the loss of one of thier comrads, acted on what thier guts told them, out of instinct for survival and blacked out by fear.

What do you think is going to happen when you train, young (18-23 year old) impressionable men, to go into a combat zone, give them weapons of war, put them face to face with death on a daily basis? I train Marines everday, weather it be Rifle Marksman Ship or Tactical Weapons Training, we're trained to ID target and shoot... if only it were that simple. There is no way to properly train men for the insurgent war fare we're faceing in Iraq. It is a horribly bloody war, with an enemy most often not seen till it is too late. Till you see your friends killed, dismembered, burned and strugleing for life, you wouldn't understand how horrific it really is.

I speak the above, with the experiance of two bloody combat tours, I am a combat wounded Veteran, I've been there, I've bleed, I've provied first aid to my fellow Marines, I've been unfortuneate to put a few men inside body bags, I've killed, I've lead other men to kill, I've made split second decisions that ment life or death. I'm tourtured by Post Tramatic Stress, Surviror Syndrome, constant nightmares, flash backs, substantial loss of hearing, and I see the results of war on the faces of my Marines everyday, who have "been there"... all the extra pay in the world, doesn't make up for the emotional effects of war are.

I can't stand silently as our country brutalizes these men, for being put into a situation, were right and wrong pay no toll. Please don't stand by, the politics of this war on Terror, have destroyed the Rules of Engagement, how many more men & women have to die or be injurred before we realize, that there hasn't been peace in the middle east since before the time of Jesus, and there never will be peace there, murder and force is all these people know, it's how Saddam controled them.

I urge everyone who reads this to please contact thier; Goveners and Congress men. Contact Head Quarters Marine Corps.

These men would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, but I hope it doesn't come to that, the sad truth is they won't get a fair trial, thier jurry will probly consist of 12 men or women, who have never been to combat, who've never sheed blood, who don't know and who don't understand what these 8 men faced that day, they will be scape goated by the country the swore to protect to save face.

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Biker
June 21, 2006, 11:35 PM
Dunno Bro, have to wait until a few facts are made available. There's always more than meets the eye. I hope to hell they're innocent.

Biker

nick012000
June 21, 2006, 11:41 PM
So... what did they do, exactly?

Accidentally shooting a civilian in a war zone is strikingly different to abducting and murdering someone, and judging by the charges being levelled at them, it sounds like it was the latter that they did.

longeyes
June 21, 2006, 11:41 PM
Our military is at the fault-line of the our great internal culture war. I'm afraid we can expect a lot more of these "incidents." They are grand political theater. Demoralizing our military is certainly part of the game-plan of people who would like to weaken this Republic.

I don't know the facts of this particular situation. I do know that our soldiers didn't sign on to be missionaries or social workers or an underpaid construction brigade.

gripper
June 21, 2006, 11:44 PM
Is there a way to donate???

FTF
June 22, 2006, 12:18 AM
I'm an ex-Marine and I do sympathize somewhat. I missed the 'window' for any sort of war while I was in, so I can't really relate to their mental condition or stress level in that theater, but there 'are' a few details that jump out at me as 'sketchy', regardless of the situation.

8 on 1 (7 Marines, 1 corpsman)... the number alone makes me wonder. I'm not sure that even some wannabe martyr would draw on 7 armed Marines within yards and expect to accomplish anything other than dying w/o shots fired. Usually they seem to have at least a bomb or bust some caps from behind a wall or something... not just suicide w/o a chance... but who knows.

The 7 Marines and 1 corpsman also seems 'to me' that they were on a somewhat unorthodox movement. It's more than fire team and less than squad size... and I've never seen a corpsman attached to a 7 man anything... of course, nobody knows what their circumstances were, but it does seem a bit odd. I'm sure special circumstances dictate special tactics, but I can't imagine, at least from my experience, where a 7 man patrol and 1 corpsman would even waste the time shaking down some Iraqi house (which is what I gather from the news).

I'm not sure what we could do to help them. Most likely they will be assigned military counsel (donations won't help)... I'm sure there is the off chance, especially for such a crime as they are charged with, that they may choose to get a civillian lawyer, but it's unlikely. Not many civillian lawyers specialize in military law... not can practice it effectively... lawyering for military types requires more knowledge of the law, both of the UCMJ as well as the constitution and I imagine most lawyers aren't willing to take on all this additional load for the payment they likely would receive from a military type aka poor.

Guess we'll just wait for the facts to come out. Good luck with that though... still waiting on the facts surrounding the death of Pat Tillman... or any charges. The military is much like the police... they keep it all in the ranks and away from the public eye as much as possible, lest their reputation be 'tarnished'... I'm a vet, not afraid to say it lol.

Hopefully justice will be served. It's a capital case, I sincerely hope they get adequate representation. Their sentences may come out a year from now and last for 10 minutes on msnbc.com... of course, nobody will care by then because something else will take over the news. Probably 10 years in Leavenworth if convicted of murder, which will be plead down to conduct unbecoming or something... I can't recall when a military peep was sentenced to death or anything... civiliians for treason, yes, but not even mai lai IIRC.

crazed_ss
June 22, 2006, 12:25 AM
I did 5 years in the Marines and I hope these guys didnt do anything wrong.
I dont know the details of the case though.
If they deliberately conspired to kidnap an murder someone, then they have to do down for it. That's just unnacceptable.
When it comes down to it, right is right and wrong is wrong.

If their actions were justified, then hopefully those in the jury let them go free. I have confidence in military courts. They usually dont bow to political pressure. They do what's right IMO. Remember that Marine that killed that Iraqi who was laying on the floor in the Mosque? He got off.

Now the Abu Ghairb poeple went down hard as they should. Just because our guys are in tough situations doesnt mean they have an excuse to stoop to the enemy's level. If they do, then we're no better than them.

Just_a_dude_with_a_gun
June 22, 2006, 12:26 AM
What I have heard about the incident, is that these 8 servicemen killed a man who they said they found digging a hole by the side of the road.

"People" claim he wasn't making a hole for an IED, and that he was an innocent man, and that the servicemen placed small arms near the body to make it look like he was an insurgent. He's dead, and his cronies, if they exist, aren't going to come forward and say 'yeah, he's one of us', so know we have a feel-food witch hunt.

rbernie
June 22, 2006, 12:33 AM
Weather they're guilty or not is beyond any of our opinions.
Agreed, in spades.

Please don't stand by, the politics of this war on Terror, have destroyed the Rules of Engagement, I can't make that leap.

the sad truth is they won't get a fair trial, thier jurry will probly consist of 12 men or women, who have never been to combat, who've never sheed blood, who don't know and who don't understand what these 8 men faced that day, they will be scape goated by the country the swore to protect to save face.I've never been raped nor have I ever been tempted to commit rape nor have I ever watched a rape be committed, but I believe that I am capable of sitting on a sexual assault trial and rendering a rational verdict as to whether a rape occurred or not. In short, I cannot agree that it requires having 'been there' to be able to judge whether or not the rules of engagement were followed.

I empathize with these guys - I really do. There but for the grace of god go I, as the saying goes. But at some point, stress of combat or not, murder is still murder. I have to presume (until somebody can prove me wrong) that the DoD is still capable of discriminating between lawful and unlawful acts.

Have there been prior examples in the current conflict in Iraq or Afghanistan where US soldiers/sailors/marines/airmen were railroaded into convictions that were demonstrably unfounded?

FTF
June 22, 2006, 12:41 AM
Please don't stand by, the politics of this war on Terror, have destroyed the Rules of Engagement

War on Terror?

Try "A global struggle against violent extremism"...

Where have you been :scrutiny:

Your terminology is like, so 1980.;)

shooter94
June 22, 2006, 01:19 AM
Our military is at the fault-line of the our great internal culture war. I'm afraid we can expect a lot more of these "incidents." They are grand political theater. Demoralizing our military is certainly part of the game-plan of people who would like to weaken this Republic.

I don't know the facts of this particular situation. I do know that our soldiers didn't sign on to be missionaries or social workers or an underpaid construction brigade.
__________________

Agreed Longeyes...the lingering damage of the Clinton administration still hasn't been rectified. When Bush rolled into office, he kept certain individuals that should have been purged. Clinton turned the greatest Military in the world into a social experiment.

The Press is largely responsible for those Marines on trial...imbedded Press is a new phenominae...left over from Vietnam. The same generation that covered that war is covering this one. The press is looking for one thing only, revenge because their boy "Kerry" lost the election.

This trial is the surface of a larger and deeper problem...that we're so divided as a Country between left and right, that we're willing to throw these guys into the brig just because they were on the CBS eveing news with Dan Rather.

Our Military is not a social experiment. What we're seeing here can be comparred to the last days of Rome...

Car Knocker
June 22, 2006, 01:35 AM
imbedded Press is a new phenominae...left over from Vietnam.

That's incorrect. There have been embedded journalists since at least WWII. Ernie PYle comes immediately to mind:

Pyle went with the US Army to North Africa in November 1942. This was followed by the invasions of Sicily and Italy. He also accompanied Allied troops during the Normandy landings and witnessed the liberation of France. By 1944 Pyle had established himself as one of the world's outstanding reporters and Time hailed him as "America's most widely read war correspondent."

In 1945 Pyle was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for journalism. Later that year he went with US troops to Okinawa. On 17th April, 1945, Ernie Pyle was killed by a Japanese sniper while on a routine patrol on 17th April, 1945.


Also, if my memory hasn't totally packed it in, Dan Rather hasn't been anchoring the CBS Evening News since early 2005.

mons meg
June 22, 2006, 08:12 AM
These men would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, but I hope it doesn't come to that, the sad truth is they won't get a fair trial, thier jurry will probly consist of 12 men or women, who have never been to combat, who've never sheed blood, who don't know and who don't understand what these 8 men faced that day, they will be scape goated by the country the swore to protect to save face.

I'm a little rusty here, but the eventual General Court-martial is actually a tribunal, isn't it, with a military panel taking the place of the jury? Chances are the people deciding guilt or innocence will know all too well what those men were facing, I think.

Leatherneck
June 22, 2006, 09:47 AM
A General Court Martial is a trial in every sense of the word. And I believe (hope?) the Marine Corps will be wise enough to populate it with Marines who have been there, done that, and wear the t-shirt. Because as the OP points out, the stress these guys operate under is enough to destroy a man. That is a mitigating factor.

You would not want a U. S. Marine Corps that would turn a blind eye to murder. So let's let the trials play out; there probably will be circumstances and testimony we haven't begun to hear about.

TC

Thin Black Line
June 22, 2006, 10:31 AM
What do you think is going to happen when you train, young (18-23 year old) impressionable men, to go into a combat zone, give them weapons of war, put them face to face with death on a daily basis?

This is a psychological truth the American public can't deal with. However,
the harder truth to deal with is using Marines and Soldiers as Law
Enforcement Officers 6400 miles away in a culture that is completely
alien to our own. It's a "culture" that's not even homogenous among the
people who live there! It's wrong. Wrong tool for the wrong job. People
who cite post-WWII occupation of Germany and Japan as successful and
therefore possible in Iraq are comparing two apples to a dried date.

The ROE was a major complaint when I was there as we saw our protective
bubble shrink. There were times when we thought we were about to get
t-boned by a SVBIED in 05 that would have been lit-up long before it got
that close in 03. In retrospect, these were often dumb drivers, people in a
hurry, etc. The same kind of crap that leads to accidents here in America
every day. The flip side was the possibility of bad guys testing the bubble
and getting progessively closer. Civilians can't understand what this does
to your way of thinking. The most paranoid CONUS wannabee can't imagine
it. You have to live it. Period.

As Americans, though, We have to take responsibility for where we put our
soldiers. In the Haditha case, if indeed there were little kids (as young as 3)
each with single 5.56 bullets put put through their heads, there is no way
around this. If this is what happened, we should be horrified. If we are no
longer horrified, then something is wrong with all of us.

Pilgrim
June 22, 2006, 03:36 PM
A General Court Martial is a trial in every sense of the word. And I believe (hope?) the Marine Corps will be wise enough to populate it with Marines who have been there, done that, and wear the t-shirt.
A General Court Martial will have at the minimum 5 members plus the military judge. I'm sure there will be more than five members on the 'jury' in this case.

The accused may request that 1/3 the panel be enlisted members. The covening authority shall make every effort to provide a panel consisting of 1/3 enlisted members or explain in the record why they weren't available.

A finding a guilt requires 2/3rds vote of the panel except in capital cases when the verdict must be unanimous.

http://www.jag.navy.mil/documents/mcm2000.pdf

The next step in this case is an Article 32 proceeding, which is the equivalent of a preliminary hearing.

Pilgrim

WT
June 22, 2006, 03:53 PM
These Marines and corpsman should not be in the brig nor should they be brought to trial for murder. Sometimes in war ....... S*it happens!

At the rate we are putting Soldiers and Marines in jail we will soon have to revert to the draft to fill the ranks.

We ask a heck of a lot from these brave men and women who serve on the ground in Iraq and A-Stan. We owe them the benefit of a doubt if they didn't perform PERFECTLY every time they were in combat.

War is H*ll.

XDKingslayer
June 22, 2006, 04:03 PM
Sometimes in war ....... S*it happens!

Accidently shooting a civilian in war is a good example of S*it happens.

Possibly abducting a person, tying him up, putting him in a hole, stealing an AK and firing it around the area to make it look like you were attacked, and falsifying reports isn't.

If they are innocent, then I will stand by me brothers. If they are guilty they aren't my brothers, are sorry excuses for Marines and deserve the punishment they get.

Regardless of age, training, length of tour, buddies being killed...

MARINES DON'T DO THAT!

crazed_ss
June 22, 2006, 05:54 PM
Accidently shooting a civilian in war is a good example of S*it happens.

Possibly abducting a person, tying him up, putting him in a hole, stealing an AK and firing it around the area to make it look like you were attacked, and falsifying reports isn't.

If they are innocent, then I will stand by me brothers. If they are guilty they aren't my brothers, are sorry excuses for Marines and deserve the punishment they get.

Regardless of age, training, length of tour, buddies being killed...

MARINES DON'T DO THAT!

Exactly.

The Marines prides itself on discipline.

If we start letting people do whatever they want just because they're in a war, our military will quickly degenerate into a giant mob with badass weapons.

v8fbird
June 22, 2006, 09:25 PM
So you want us to feel sorry for people who VOLUNTARILY signed up for this? It's not like the U.S. doesn't have a long and varied enough history of getting into wars in which it doesn't belong. You'd think people would learn.

At what point does some of the blame fall upon the troops themselves for being the willing tools of our rulers?

gripper
June 22, 2006, 10:33 PM
Elaborate,if you please....

v8fbird
June 22, 2006, 10:38 PM
Elaborate on elaborate and I'll elaborate. ;)

rbernie
June 22, 2006, 11:11 PM
If we start letting people do whatever they want just because they're in a war, our military will quickly degenerate into a giant mob with badass weapons.Well said.

gripper
June 22, 2006, 11:17 PM
By "Elaborate" I am asking whether you are saying"they signed up so they don't need support" or what.We still do not know if in fact they are guilty.Look at the whole Haditha story;so far the credibility of both the reporter and the accusers is eroding;he has yet to say the same story twice.
I may not be understanding you;so that is what "elaborate " means.Is "clarify" or "illustrate your point" better for you?

v8fbird
June 23, 2006, 12:04 AM
Obviously everyone has the right to be tried in a court of law.


However, the original poster was talking about Marines in general. And when he was discussing the horrible conditions that people have to survive, he was trying to remove some of the guilt from the things that they do. Which, I was commenting, is ridiculous.

You're right, the average Marine likely isn't guilty of a mass murder. But the fact remains - they are in another country, which is guilty of no crime or aggression. They invaded this country, killed, maimed, hurt (whether intentionally or not) thousands upon thousands of innocent people, and are now involved in the imposition of military rule upon the population, imposing curfews, unjustified searches and seizures, wrongful imprisonment, torture and, it's worth mentioning, CONFISCATION OF FIREARMS. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Many people call this "collateral damage." I call it crime. Whether it's done by one thug on the street or by Marines "just obeying orders," and completely regardless of intent, it's absolutely the same thing. When someone commits a crime against a U.S. citizen, we expect that citizen to resist, even violently and with deadly force. In fact, we would encourage it. But when the Iraqis do JUST THAT, we call them "terrorists" or "insurgents." But the fact remains -- most of it is self defense.

You ask me to feel sorry for criminals who fear those they are committing crimes against? If grandma pulls a snubnose out of her purse and shoots a mugger, do you feel sorry for the mugger because of the stress of the situation?

If we were talking about Vietnam or various other wars where involuntary enlistment has been used, this would be a different story. In those cases, I WOULD feel sorry for soldiers who had been drafted. I WOULD argue that their actions were partially caused by mitigating circumstances, the same as if someone commits a crime because he has a gun to his head.

But none of today's Marines are victims of impressment. They all signed up. They all knew (or if they didn't know they were willfully ignorant) of what they were getting. The U.S. has not been in a single justifiable war since the civil war, or the war between the states, or the war of northern aggression, or the war to prevent southern independence, or whatever you call it. And, even then, only the south's use of military force was justifiable. My point is that the American empire, that uses its mercenary forces to impose its will around the globe, did not just SNEAK UP on people. So there's no excuse for those who continue to sign up.

Many people detest the government but "support our troops." But that position does not make much sense. If you really empathize with the troops, you should not support them, as your support makes them think that you approve of what they are doing. I hate the government, and I also place part of the blame on the troops.

Tyrannical governments always need good troops to keep power. This has been the case since the beginning of time. Our government is no exception. If not for our troops, we would not be the world's policeman, and we would not be responsible for two of the most heinous crimes of human history (hiroshima and nagasaki). The blame cannot rest simply on those who hire the troops, just as the blame cannot rest only on the man who hires a hitman to kill your wife. Both parties must share in the blame. One is the tool of the other, but both are guilty of the crime.

I hold this position not only because I feel sorry for the innocent people we are terrorizing around the globe, but also because I believe in the inherent, natural and God-given rights of all human beings. And if our troops are willing to follow orders that violate the natural rights of a foreign population, there is no reason to believe that they will not follow the same orders to violate the rights of the population here at home. And THAT, in particular, is what scares me most of all.

P.S. - I wrote all that because I'm assuming that I'm not going to get the typical "like it or move to Canada" or "pussy coward traitor commie" response. Please don't prove me wrong.

Walter
June 23, 2006, 01:04 AM
I hold this position not only because I feel sorry for the innocent people we are terrorizing around the globe, but also because I believe in the inherent, natural and God-given rights of all human beings. And if our troops are willing to follow orders that violate the natural rights of a foreign population, there is no reason to believe that they will not follow the same orders to violate the rights of the population here at home. And THAT, in particular, is what scares me most of all.

P.S. - I wrote all that because I'm assuming that I'm not going to get the typical "like it or move to Canada" or "pussy coward traitor commie" response. Please don't prove me wrong.

I won't call you names or tell you to "Love It Or Leave It".
Been there, done all that. I was a grunt Marine in Viet Nam in
69 and 70. I don't want to get into that again.
But I don't agree with your opinion of our situation in Iraq.

I feel sorry for "innocent" people, too. But our purpose in Iraq is to get
to the "not so innocent" and stop another 9-11 from happening. At least
that's my opinion of why we are there.

You do remember 9-11, don't you? Airliners flown into the World Trade
Center?

A whole lot of people started screaming "Why didn't we do something to stop this?" the day after that happened. Well, that's what we're doing in Iraq. Something to keep something like that from happening again.

And I hope attitudes like yours don't become common enough to cause us
to stop hunting down and KILLING the dirtbags who want to destroy this country.

Walter

cropcirclewalker
June 23, 2006, 01:17 AM
You do remember 9-11, don't you? Airliners flown into the World Trade
Center? Ok, so he trod on the thin ice.

If we were making war on Saudia Arabia, (the homeland of the overwhelming majority of the 9-11 terrorists) you might have a point.

I think he did a pretty good job of describing a legitimate concern about killing a bunch of goat herders that really didn't have anything to do with it.

If the UN came in here tomorrow and started doing door to doors and shooting civilians there would be a lot of us here that would be happy to be called "insurgents" I yam one of them.

I think it's best if we try to remember the words of good ol' George Washington, who said and I paraphrase, "Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none."

Pax Americana is not the way to do that.

KC&97TA
June 23, 2006, 03:35 AM
The old saying, "the old men start the wars and the young men die in them", Could not be truer. So now when those young men, have found them selves in a conflict of interest, skylighted in a political/media storm... we turn our backs on them. These men did it out of survival, to one day enjoy... the freedoms all non-military enjoy everyday, but don't think for a minute that they knew exactly what they were getting into. When put in the position to Survive, every action has a reaction.

To try to Grossly Justify this; Once you've killed several people, your vision of killing again has become obscured, and debateable only in your mind, law and normal thinking is far from any secondary thought. The difference between right and wrong goes away, you're left with instinct. You know how many times I've woke up in the night, hearing "noises", I'll clear the house, not out of "home protection, but out of a speculation to comit a 'justifiable homicide'. I used to think for hours on why I shouldn't kill my new 2nd Lt or maybe if I blew up the Gunny (who hadn't seen and still hasn't seen combat) he may understand why I could care less about his uniform inspections. The urge to kill, becomes second nature, many of the service men returning strugle with this state side, you can't turn it off, there is no switch. Once you spend 7 months in a combat zone, standing toe-to-toe with death, seeing the blood and guts of your own & the enemy, you'll rationalize any thing that your gut tells you will extend your life span.

So what did happen over there, the sh*t hit the fan, one of thier buddies died... we have a saying, if the guy running from the IED explosion isn't guilty of setting it off, he's guilty of knowing about it and doing nothing, either way, he's still guilty and now has observed how we react, which is sometimes more dangerous than the bomb itself.

So maybe we have become the Roman Empire, with the USA's Global 911 protection of all and aid to everyone, if we can reasonably be compared to that if so... please right your Political Leaders; I'm all for being the Roman Empire. How did the Romans fight? over lust full Genocide! I don't think Mark Antony, and Octavian would be served proud. We're already being compared to "Nazi SS Storm Troopers", go ahead and open the gates. To call us Mercenarys? We're far from that, although there are alot of men going to private contracting/security firms as not to fall under the 'laws of war' that we seem to tie our hands with.

I'll save this (respectfully) for the 'hippy/commy/yuppy sector'; If you think for a second that any US Service personel, give two sh*t's about Iraq or the Iraqi people you're sadly mistaken... There's 3 general catagorys of Fighting Men/Women; Those who want to KILL, Those who want the experiance and those who want to suck up the Tax Free/Extra Pay, yes there's satisfaction in humanity projects, but that's few and far between. Support the men who are over there doing it because they have too, they could give a bucket of three week old port-a-john sludge on what your feelings are, expecially when you give an opinion different than thiers, even though they'd give thier life for you to hold you're own opinion and not be under tyranny

The utmost of Saveing Face for the Armed Forces; Basically we do what we're told, when we're told, with the only exceptions being on the individual squad level, were small unit leaders are the key to winning the battle and survival. This is where the human factor takes its toll and mistakes are made, this is where disipline comes to light and shows that we don't rampage the country side; rapeing, pillageing and burning down villages. We don't make politics, the 1% of the US population that is Serveing Thier Country, is controlled by the Politics that the everday citizen has more power to control than they know about. It didn't take long for the complaints about; body armor, vehicle armor, ect, to take to the news medial and our representitives before action was taken.

These latest incidences of chargeing service personel with 'murder' are oxymoronic. In my opinion.

Old Dog
June 23, 2006, 03:49 AM
KC&97TA, I'd suggest that you need some help. And I just don't believe you're going to get any type of validation for your statements here.
If you think for a second that any US Service personel, give two sh*t's about Iraq or the Iraqi people you're sadly mistaken... There's 3 general catagorys of Fighting Men/Women; Those who want to KILL, Those who want the experiance and those who want to suck up the Tax Free/Extra Pay, This statement is just plain wrong.
Once you've killed several people, your vision of killing again has become obscured, and debateable only in your mind, law and normal thinking is far from any secondary thought. The difference between right and wrong goes away, you're left with instinct.You're saying things that not only are not true, these sort of statements really have no place on this forum.

It would seem as though you are attempting to rationalize the actions of the Marines (and one Sailor) with regard to your original post. Since you were not present during that event, and none of us were either, you cannot possibly justify their actions, nor can we even begin to judge right or wrong in this case, and hence, provide any sympathy or support for those men.

Spiphel Rike
June 23, 2006, 04:00 AM
As much as I never thought I'd say this, wait for the investigation and trials to end. If the men are guilty then let them be punished, if not then they will go free.

If the men did screw up and kill someone they didn't have to/weren't supposed to don't just blindly defend them. You can't be proud of having a well disciplined military if that isn't true.

DavyR
June 23, 2006, 07:03 AM
I was a Marine officer in Viet Nam (I know, another ??? war). I went because I took an oath to serve as directed by legitimate authorities. I didn't go because I wanted to kill someone, and I don't believe the men that served with me wanted to kill someone--most were extremely happy to go home. On one patrol, my radio man was severly injured. My 1st reaction was to have my platoon shoot into a tree line where we heard noise. I, fortunately, had a platoon sargeant who had seen it all and who took me aside to have a quiet talk. I realized later that he was calming me down so that I would do my job correctly. I was neither trained nor paid to take revenge, no matter how good it would have felt. However, to belittle the men doing what they are told to do in Iraq is wrong. In this country, because of our "system," those ELECTED by the MAJORITY of all citizens are the ones who put them there. Congress could over-rule the president. That said, if these men did take "revenge," then their unit leader is at fault. Believe me, I understand how he felt, but revenge accomplishes nothing that will help the war. What is my point? Before you are ready to jump all over them, try to understand that they are good men serving the elected leaders of this country, and they are in a situation you CANNOT understand unless you have been there. Without people like them, we would all be speaking German or French or Spanish or some other language.

As for feeling nothing for the people, I remember some of us watching some children play in a river and feeling sorry that they were growing up in this environment--we didn't "not Care" about them at all--we gave them food, were respectful of their homes, and, when necessary and we were able to, we got the civilians out of the way.

PS: It turns out there was a small village on the other side of the trees. I would be a complete nut case today if we had fired through the trees and killed a bunch of civilians, no matter what a court-martial would have done.

Leatherneck
June 23, 2006, 09:29 AM
Well said, DavyR; and welcome to THR, in case everybody else forgot their manners.

To repeat myself: these Marines may have done something wrong under very great emotional stress. Let the Marine Corps sort it out; you and I don't know all the facts. No Marine I've ever known would condone murder, if that's what this turns out to be. Sympathize, perhaps; condone, NO.

TC

Thin Black Line
June 23, 2006, 09:50 AM
The old saying, "the old men start the wars and the young men die in them", Could not be truer.

Usually true. But, I had to get an age waiver prior to Iraq.....and I don't
fit into your three categories either.

crazed_ss
June 23, 2006, 11:21 AM
These latest incidences of chargeing service personel with 'murder' are oxymoronic. In my opinion.

Not neccessarily. Like I said before, being a Marine/Soldier in a war zone does not give you a pass to kill indiscriminately.

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