Need help from Experienced BP owners!!!


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The Sicilian
June 22, 2006, 11:00 PM
I just bought an 1860 Colt third generation black powder revolver (Signature series 1860). The gun was previously owned but looks to only have been fired a few times, if even that much. Anyway, I was checking the gun out at home, cocking it and dry firing it to see how everything was working (The gun shop owner would not let me do this before I bought the gun). For the first few trigger pulls everything was working fine, except the fact that the trigger was what most people would call a "Hair trigger". I think that would be an understatement, considering the pressure it takes to pull the trigger, i.e, you hardly have to touch it, you could look at the trigger funny and it would go off! :eek:

A few more times of checking the trigger and pulling back the hammer and the hammer would not stay fully cocked! :cuss: It will stay at half cocked but it will not stay cocked and ready for firing! This wouldn't be too much of a problem if I never planned to shoot the damn gun but I bought it to shoot, not to put on the wall or into a safe. I've heard that this is an easy problem to fix, all one should need is a few screw drivers and a file, is this true? Which part would I have to file, the hammer? Is it possible that I may not even have to do any filing? A person told me that it could simply be some left over debrie fouling things up, lke old pieces of fired primers.

Please try and give me clear instructions on how to fix this problem. I'm dissapointed that I couldn't take it to the range yesterday. I'd like to fix the gun before my next trip which may be this weekend. I bought a cheap set of small files from Harbor frieght for around $4.00 dollars that should do the trick fine. If not I'll buy some diamond files for around $10.00 bucks. I filed down the front sight on my Remington because it was shooting low, now the elevation is almost perfect. I need to buy a small table vice so I can move the front sight to the right a little. It shoots around two or three inches to the right. The Remington is capable of shooting one inch groups, it's a fine revolver considering the money I paid for it. I'll eventually get a conversion cylinder to see how it shoots with modern cartridges. Uberti makes a pretty good replica and I've hear the third generation Colts are built from Uberti parts.

Question number two: I have a Remington New Army and I would like to lighten up the hammer as it takes a little too much effort to cock the revolver. The trigger is perfect and the gun is a shooter! What do I have to do to lighten up the hammer tension? I have plenty of diagrams so I just need the proper directions on how to modify the hammer pull. It takes way too much effort to cock the gun so I'd like to lighten it up before Sunday.

Thanks for the help,

Sicilian.

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mec
June 22, 2006, 11:13 PM
from the way your new gun started out, it sound like there was very little full cock notch contacting the trigger and when it started to smooth out, there was effectively none. Given the behavior of the spinctorial behavior of the guy who sold it to you, I would probably take it back and make him exchange it or send it to the manufacture for same. This would at the very least have the effect of making him explain that he doesn't practice business ethics.

Otherwise, you can probably fix the gun by very conservative deepening of the hammer notch. It would be best to do so in a manner that would not let the file touch whatever remains of the full cock notch where it contacts the trigger as any degree of filing on it will remove any casehardening that might be present. Can't tell if this is feasible without looking but if the notch is virtually gone, it might not be possible to avoid cutting into the hardening.

On the remington, if the trigger pull is nice, I would be tempted to avoid any weakening of the hammer spring. backing out on the screw that tensions the bottom of the spring may help though the remington springs are captured in a frame groove which can limit that effect. On my Uberti, that screw does put some strain on the mainspring affording a degree of adjustment.

The Sicilian
June 22, 2006, 11:27 PM
I already took it back to the store owner. I don't want a new gun, nor do I want a replacement. Besides, he couldn't replace it even if he wanted to, it's not like these guns are easy enough to grab up for cheap. I've been pricing the signature series on the net and the prices people are asking are nuts! Just because of the Colt name they are already going for around $850.00! :what: I've yet to see one under $500.00. I paid $350.00 for mine (tax included) and by the look of the prices I did alright. I know the gun smith the owner would have sent it to and he won't be back in town until July 11, then I'd have to wait for him to unwind from his vacation (He travels the Cowboy action shooting circuit) and then he'd finally take a look at the gun. By the time I'd get the gun back in working order it would be around July 15 or so. I don't really want to wait that long in order to shoot my new 1860, know what I mean?

Could you give me more detailed instructions mec, maybe some sort of a diagram so I can see exactly what I'll need to file away? I'm sure it will be pretty simple after I know what to do, but as of right now I don't know all of the proper names of the parts, nor do I know the specific shapes that engage the hammer and trigger. I'm sorry if I'm being a pain in the ass, please bear with my inexperienced questions, I'll eventually get the hang of things.

Thanks mec,

Sicilian.

mec
June 23, 2006, 12:01 AM
I should have read your first paragraph better. Of course you can't send a signature series back for replacement.
I've read one post complaining about a hammer de-tuning on a signature and the guy thought it was because of soft metal. You can kind of see the full cock notch on the hammer here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=24191&d=1114991395

It is a small shelf that engages the tip of the trigger. Ideally, the metal has been case hardened putting a very thin hard surface over a fairly soft hammer. If you file on it, you expose soft metal which will wear out quickly . Depending on the exact configuration of your hammer, you might be able to file it deeper without abrading the contact surface.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=41446&stc=1&d=1151031452
Once you get it down to this point, you'll be able to tell if it's the hammer or the trigger that needs shaping. Probably the hammer notch but triggers have been known to crumble away too. I had that happen on a really excremental "Lincoln Derringer" from Pal-fecundating=metto Arms Co. On these Pietta parts you can see that the hammer is case hardened but the trigger is not.

Old Fuff
June 23, 2006, 12:03 AM
I wonder if someone did a trigger pull or action job on this revolver, and went too far. One problem is that the hammer is made from soft steel, which is then case hardened. If someone cut through the hard surface the hammer may be ruined. Triggers are not case hardened, but if someone filed on the one in your gun it may be ruined too. It is also possible that someone replaced or cut down either the trigger & bolt spring or the mainspring. Doing this to either or both springs could effect the trigger pull.

The first thing that should be done is to completely disassemble the frame assembly to examine the parts for unauthorized modifications. Only after that will you know what needs to be done to correct the situation. If necessary, new parts can be obtained from www.e-gunparts.com.

Do not dry fire this revolver! The hammer will batter the nipples in the cylinder and they will have to be replaced too.

mec
June 23, 2006, 12:18 AM
Ah. Simultaneous posts from both me and the Venerable Fuff. I see that they contain essentially the same information even though conceived independently. two for the price of one.

Old Fuff
June 23, 2006, 12:34 AM
Yup... Great minds thik alike, and all that... :)

The big problem I have here it that it's very difficult to offer advise without examining the gun and/or parts. The alternative would be very good, detailed photographs. The price of the revolver (which is truly a fine one) makes me wonder if someone played with the insides when they shouldn't have, and then dumped it when things didn't work right. Even if certain parts had to be replaced it would still be a good buy.

The Sicilian
June 23, 2006, 12:38 AM
Right on! Thanks guys (especially you mec, for the excellent pics, they are worth their weight in gold). Thank you also Old Fluff! I don't mind buying some new nipples, I need a few extra sets anyway. Dry firing a BP revolver should only hurt the nipples, and that would take quite a lot of dry firing to smash them down. I guess I could always remove the nipples if I really want to practice squeezing the trigger while at home. Will that cause any inadvertant damage to the revolver?

I hope I can get away with a little file work. The only way to find out is to start breaking down the old girl! I just disassembled my Remington for the first time, very interesting design, looks like a pretty good overall design, simple. The fewer parts that you have to worry about breaking always tend to make a better tool. Think of our howitzers vs. the German's long range artillery, their's ( I think a 105 or an 88) had over 40 moving parts while ours had only seven. Which would you rather work on and fire in the heat of battle? I'll take the simpler design over the more complex nine out of ten times. Just because somthing is complex doesn't necessarily mean that it's something I wouldn't want, just that I tend to admire the simpler, more practical designs compared to the time piece like designs of the Swiss and the Germans.

I guess I'll put my Remington back together and start on the Colt. I'll tell you what is up after I break her open. Maybe I can scan the parts and post them so you two can take a look and give me your opinions? Do you think that would work, scanning an actual part?

The Sicilian.

mec
June 23, 2006, 12:40 AM
that somebody performed monkeyage on the innards is a very real possibility. It is also likely (though not certain) that current uberti parts would turn out to be a drop-in fit.

" great minds...."
absolutely right. I was about to use that line myself and you beat me to it.

The Sicilian
June 23, 2006, 12:47 AM
Damn straight Old Fluff!!! The internal parts are cheap compared to the price of a Colt Signature series revolver. I'm really surprised that they are going for so much money, it's not like they're the second generation Colt's or anything. Though the same Italian American guy that started the second generation Colts was the one who began to start on the third generation Colts. I think these signatures are Colt in name only, but the overall guns are very beautiful. I've never seen such a beautiful blueing job on one of these guns before. The grips are shaped perfectly though the finish looks pretty bad. I'll have to stip them and put an oil finish on them to make the grips look proper, Any advice on how to do a great job on an oil finish? I've never done it before and only have one set of instructions on how to do it. I always like to get a few opinions on something before I start to do the actual work.

Sicilian.

Old Fuff
June 23, 2006, 03:02 AM
Dry firing can batter the hammer nose too... :(

The wood stocks were individually fitted to the trigger guard and backstrap, so be careful with the sandpaper.

The old finish should be left in place, but LIGHTLY sanded town to the wood surface. That way it will work as a wood filler. Commercial finishes such as Lin-Speed can be used to finish the job. The idea is to have several thin coats rather the fewer thick ones, and to allow at least 24 hours (48 is better) between coats to dry. Just put one or two drops of finish on the side of a stock and then spread it around with a fngertip. when done, repeat on the other side.

Original commercial guns had a high gloss finish, where the military contract ones were flatter. You can dull a high-gloss finish by rubbing it lightly with 0000 steel wool or rottenstone. The above mentioned supplies are available from Brownells at www.brownells.com

They also offer expert advise - for free.

When Colt discontinued building cap & ball revolvers they sold a lot of left-over parts to Numrich/The Gunparts Corp. in West Hurley, NY. You will find them listed at www.e-gunparts.com

Smokin_Gun
June 23, 2006, 03:59 AM
Sicilian, you could solve your problem instantly if you want to...send that Colt to me and I'll send you that Uberti 1873BP...LoL! Then I'll worry bout it...
Seriously I'd go ahead and order a new trigger, bolt, bolt/trigger spring, and hammer if after inspection the hammer notch is gone too. Uberti would fit just fine if you can't find Colt 3rd Gen. parts available. http://vtigunparts.com/
That 1860 Colt would go well with my Colt Dragoon...
Congrads on gettin' it and hope you get it fixed real soon.

gmatov
June 24, 2006, 12:21 AM
I'd suggest, just because the whole package is so cheap, the replacement kit from Cabela's, at about 22 bucks, includes a hammer, and, I think, a trigger, as well as springs, hand, and screws for the whole pistol.

I'd DEFINITELY replace the hammer and trigger. If you want to hone the new parts for a custom trigger pull, that woud be one thing, to stone new engagement seat and sear tip on those parts will likely mean you are into unhardened metal. It may work for a little while, but will soon need redone.

Regardless how I made this Colt made copy shoot, I would save the original parts, think it would keep its value better if you sold it with the original parts back in it, whether it is operating properly with them or not.

Cheers,

George

The Sicilian
June 24, 2006, 12:32 AM
Sorry Smoke, I'm keeping the Colt :neener: Though I still like your 1873 and if I had the bread right now I'd take it off your hands. I'll get some replacement parts as soon as I can, but for the meantime I'll be doing some experimenting (I may as well get some proper experience by checking it out myself). Hopefully I'll be able to get it working myself with just some filing, but like gmatov said, I'll probably be filing into the soft metal and will need the new parts anyway. I took apart my Remington last night for the first time....everything, even took out the main spring, it was no major ordeal, went back in pretty easily after I figured out the proper way to leverage it.

I'll most likely be taking the Colt apart tonight, depending on how I feel and how late I decide to stay up. I'll tell you guys how it goes and try to send some before and after parts pictures. I may need some more advice so stay tuned. :scrutiny:

pohill
June 24, 2006, 01:11 AM
Stripping it down is first and foremost, before talk of filing and replacing parts. Might be something as simple as a spent cap jamming the works, a lose trigger/bolt spring, etc.
And dry firing is just simply not a good idea...

Manyirons
June 24, 2006, 03:04 AM
Ifin tha case hardnins brokin through, great time ta learn ta use KASENIT. Might solve yer hardin problem ifin thats tha deal.

Smokin_Gun
June 24, 2006, 03:17 AM
Manyirons, I'm gonna ask you this here cause it ain't a plug it's a question.
Would you guys make Colt Repro abors on request? No slot cut in them just abors with threads and lube grooves for the cylinder. With given lengths and dimensions/old arbor...ect.

sjohns
June 24, 2006, 06:54 AM
Sounds to me like someone wanted to get rid of a gun that would go off arbitrarily, i.e.: KNEW it was dangerous. Probably because like some have said, he messed up the mating surfaces on the hammer and/or trigger, or both.
The advice that most folks are giving you about hammer/spring/trigger sets is sound advice.
I have one of those same guns. Unfired, I think. Its trigger pull is like fighting with an elephant. I'd rather have a 61 "Colt" that I could convert.

Manyirons
June 24, 2006, 09:12 AM
Hi Smokin Gun!

Yup! Tha BOSS MANN has made arbors afore and boy! Ifin ya can get onea THOSE ta stretch er deform yer usin smokeless!

Choices of Carpenter 465 or 17-4 PH Stainless or Alloy steel all of em aged tempered etc. TOUGH! Ask yerself why NOT a stainless arbor? Ya never see it lessin ys takes it apart keeps that TRADITIONAL look.

Theres an arbor he makes that has an adjustable ball detent, says ifin ya GOT ta have somethin silly as a wedge ta holder together, SHOULD be done right!

The Sicilian
June 24, 2006, 02:01 PM
There's nothing wrong with talking about filing the parts down if that is what is needed. You're right, it could be something gunking up the works but I highly doubt it and that was mentioned at the beginning of the thread. I plan on getting a set of internals but I'd still like to try and get it working for the time being. The only way to learn is to dive in head first. The beat part about owning these guns is that almost everything you need (part wise) has to be mail ordered. There is a Cabela's a few hours north of me, maybe I should take a ride for the parts. You can convert an 1860! What were you talking about? I want to get an 1862 pocket Navy also, for a conversion gun. Nice to have both options.

Manyirons, what stuff are you talking about? "KASENIT"...I've never heard of it, where can I get some and is it easy to use?

Let me clarify something....I do not sit around dry firing my revolvers! But when I get a new revolver I do check it by dry firing it a few times, this will not do one bit of damage to the revolver. I think sjohns is right, whoever owned it either tried to do some work without getting any proper advice and screwed it up...or they got rid of the gun because of the "Hair Trigger". No more hair trigger now:D I can't see how the store owner didn't know what was going on with this gun. I really don't care either way, it was great buy over all. No big deal if I have to spend 25 bucks on new internals. Doesn't the Mann make stainless steel internals for these guns?

The Sicilian.

Manyirons
June 24, 2006, 02:16 PM
KASENIT is a hardin compound dead easy ta use, hell even i can manage! :)

Smokin_Gun
June 24, 2006, 02:32 PM
I thank you good to know...have a friend that I believe wants a few made. Not from stretching...I belive mostly too short a wedge slot to barrel assy length or deformed arbor slots from too long or overbottoming causing wedge to arbor damage...I'll let him explain it. What do I know, LoL!
Thanks again for the info. Is there a ball park figure on them or is 1 or more the same price?

gmatov
June 26, 2006, 01:07 AM
Sicilian,

With a centerfire, no, you won't do any damage to the pistol. With a C&B, even a couple hits with a fully sprung hammer can mushroom the nipples. Steel on steel. Sumpin's gotta give.

One other thing you should check before you start filing and stoning. Some people seem to have used epoxy to reduce the sear engagement into the hammer notch. Makes for less creep and less pull weight, as you don't have to raise the hammer so far with the trigger squeeze.

Smoke,

I don't know about getting an arbor made, no slot. Hard for a non-machinist to broach the slot. You crank 'er in, then you gotta do the broaching. and you go too far, you gotta fill in, do over.

I don't know if DA MANN takes your pistol and makes new and also broaches to suit. The sales force doesn't seem to get into that, and, you too, did say no slot. If I were paying for a new arbor, I would want the provider to make, screw in, mark, unscrew, then broach to match the window. If he can broach with the arbor in the frame, so much the better. Already seated.

Cheers,

George

The Sicilian
June 26, 2006, 01:07 AM
Okay, here's the best pictures I could produce without a digital camera. I had to scan the hammer and trigger. The hammer does have another notch for full cock but the scan quality makes it hard to see. The trigger looked a little strange to me but since I've never realy taken apart a Colt before it may be normal. One side of the top of the trigger had a little "pointed horn", is this normal? It almost looked like something was broken off, yet at the same time it was so uniform (the possible breakage) that I'm unsure.

Anyway, I took it apart, checked things out for a little while so I would become familiar with how all the parts interacted with each other, then reassembled before doing any filing just to see if it might work. I did notice a small piece of "chipped" or "flaked" metal that fell out after disassembly. Once I got it back together it did work again, though the trigger is still too sensitive. I also noticed if I gently pushed the trigger to the left it will slip off of the second notch. I think something is wrong but cannot properly diagnose the problem. It's either the trigger or the hammer. I'll have to take a look at the picture mec posted. THR has been offline since last night so I had nothing to reference my parts to.

At the very least I can now shoot it next trip to the range, that's something. I'm glad I decided to give it a try, not too complicated at all and very interesting. I'll still have to order new internals in order to fix things properly.

Sicilian.

The Sicilian
June 26, 2006, 01:21 AM
Well...I just took another look at the pics mec posted of the internals and the trigger on my revolver is definitely broken. I'm not sure how much surface area broke off but it was enough to screw things up. That's probably the reason for the over-sensitive trigger. The second hammer notch still looks a little worn to me but I'll wait on on more experienced investigation. The full cock notch was probably abnormally worn because of the broken trigger. It could be that a rougher surface on the top of the trigger wore down the notch a bit...any other guesses as to what may have caused the trouble? The scan was blurry and even with enhancment software I couldn't sharpen it up. The sharpening tool on the software added too many weired looking digital artifacts to the hammer and trigger so I left things as is. If you look very closely you'll be able to make out the outline of the full cock notch.

Sicilian.

P.S.,

The hand assemble, which rotates the cylinder, has a sharp burr on it that seems to have gauged the the side of the round guide next to the arbor. It's only a very small, yet sharp burr that I think should be removed. It shouldn't effect cylinder rotation at all and may even smooth things out. Any advice for or against removing the sharp burr on the hand assembly?...:confused:

Smokin_Gun
June 26, 2006, 01:42 AM
Remove a burr of displaced material, yes... but do not short the height or spur that goes into the cylinder. Could make you have a cylinder timming issue... Good to see you are havin' fun with your Colt. And My offer still stands on the 1873BP...

Old Fuff
June 26, 2006, 03:24 AM
I'd say that in its present condition the revolver isn't safe to shoot. Once cocked the hammer might fall before you were ready to shoot. I can't see the notch on the hammer well enough to tell if there is a problem there, but suspect there might be.

Unless there is a rear sight mounted on the back of the barrel something is wrong with the hammer nose too. Look at the hammer in the pictures mec posted and you'll see the difference.

I know you want to shoot the gun, but it isn't worth risking an accident. It would be far better to wait until the defective lockwork has been replaced, and the action properally tuned.

pohill
June 26, 2006, 07:19 AM
Sicilian, when I said you should take the gun apart before buying parts, I was only trying to save you some bucks. I really dont give a rat's ass if you
waste your money. And, dry firing IS bad for your gun - several poeple told you so. At this point in your black powder career, you should thank everyone who offers an opinion IN GOOD FAITH, instead of coping a 'tude. And, no one has suggested that you check and see if Pietta parts will fit a Colt...but you do what you want.

RBak
June 26, 2006, 02:46 PM
FWIW, Wish I could have read this a couple of years back.
I had the same gun, In fact I bought the "Signature Series" which included a 1861 Colt Musket, and the revolver mentioned, which was cased in a nice presentation box.

I had the identical problem, and later found out the solution called for a trigger replacement......after I practically gave the revolver away.

Occasionaly I see the fellow who picked it up, and according to him, "it now works like a fine clock"....:mad:

Good thread fellows, great information here!

Respectfully, Russ...

The Sicilian
June 26, 2006, 03:08 PM
Pohill,

Why don't you take a long walk off a short peer! What are getting so bent out of shape about? I didn't come back at you in a bad way. Maybe you should lay off the coffee or something! Dry firing, like I said before, is something I don't do very often at all, but to dryfire one of these guns here and there will not hurt them a bit. If the nipples mushroom after one or two dryfires then something is seriously wrong. I have no idea what you're talking about mentioning Pietta parts, you must have me mixed up with someone else. As for my BP career, I don't have a BP career. I've taken everyone's advice, haven't argued at all, you seem to be the only person to have a problem. You seem a little overly sensitive over something so minor. And if you would have read my post more clearly you would have realized that I had no intention of filing anything until I had a good proper look at things. These revolvers aren't exactly rocket science, you know! Next time maybe you should think before you let go over something so trivial.

The Sicilian
June 26, 2006, 03:22 PM
Russ,

Seems like the trigger is the culprit, at least in my humble opinion. A trigger should not have a "small horn" on one side, and mine does. I did manage to get it working after disassembly and a little cleaning. I have a feeling that filing off the little "horn" on the trigger will completely fix the problem as my hammer looks to be in decent shape. I'm still waiting for a few other opinions about the hammer though. Old Fluff said it was a little hard to tell if the second hammer notch looked alright or not. That's my fault, I don't have a digital camera so I had to scan the parts, they didn't come out very well...the edges look blurred and the scan made the parts look rougher then they really do. I'm sorry you got rid of your Colts...did you take them apart and look at the internals before you gave them to that other fellow? I'm still slightly suspecious of the hammer and will pick up some new parts as soon as I get the chance.

P.S.,

Thanks to everyone for the excellent advice, I apologize if I seemed arrogant or unthankful in any way. I really don't have a beef with anyone and all of the information you guys gave me came in handy, even yours, Pohill. I think you may have taken what I wrote the wrong way, if that's the case let's just forget about the little problem and try to get along. Sometimes, when using a computer and writing everything down, it's easy to take something in a different spirit than what it was originally written in. I really didn't mean to offend anyone, but in life we don't always agree with everything another person says. Something to think about before giving advice to someone. I've given what I thought was good advice and had other people not take it...no big deal. We all have our own way of doing things and there's usually more than one way to skin a cat!

-mario.

The Sicilian
June 26, 2006, 03:28 PM
Old Fluff,

You mentioned a possible problem with the hammer nose? I looked and compared mine with he one in mec's picture and didn't see any difference. Maybe I'm overlooking something? Could you give me a better idea of what the problem might be? Maybe it has something to do with the bad scan rather then an actual problem with my hammer...I hope so anyway. As for the revolver being unsafe, I don't think so, it does seem pretty solid now, but I'll definitely take what you said seriously and be extra careful when I shoot it this week. As for that little"horn" on the trigger, that could (probably is) the culprit, I'm thinking of removing it with a file just like the burr on the hand assembly. What do you think? The worst thing that could happen would be for the revolver to become inoperable again, which would bring me back to square one...getting new parts...which I plan to do regardless, better to be safe than sorry.

Old Fuff
June 26, 2006, 06:35 PM
The Sicilian

There are many problems here, not the least of which is that the Old Fuff is suffering from a medical condition that makes typing very difficult, and he can only work for short periods of time.

Concerning the hammer nose, it appears on my monitor that the little lip or ledge at the upper/front of the nose (the part that hits the nipple) is missing. You can see it in mec’s picture, and it’s where the rear sight notch is usually cut. You may have it, but the picture doesn’t show it.

I have no idea what the “horn” on the trigger is, but I suspect it is battered metal on the tip of the trigger, caused by the trigger being struck by the half-cock notch when the hammer slips and falls when the trigger wasn’t being held back. If I’m right the trigger is probably ruined, and beyond repair.

The hammer’s full-cock notch is not only a certain depth, but also cut at a particular angle. The trigger in turn has an angle cut on the tip which matches the angle on the hammer. Because the hammer is case hardened any adjustments are usually made to the trigger’s angle. Doing this kind of work correctly requires both knowledge and experience. Once the angle or depth on the hammer’s notch is altered – either unintentionally through battering, or deliberately through filing, grinding, or stoning the part is likely going to have to be replaced.

19th Century cap & ball revolvers were built, not assembled, and they had no such thing as “drop in” parts. Everything was hand fitted. Today’s replicas are for the most part, made the same way. Therefore it is critically important that (1) replacement parts come from the same manufacturer that made the gun, and (2) that these parts are correctly fitted. This is especially true when it comes to anything that reflects on the weight of the trigger pull.

Beyond this, and what has been said by others, there is little more that I can do to help you. Some issues can be addressed by posting instructions on a forum. Others require that the gun or parts in question be actually inspected. You have an exceptionally fine cap & ball revolver, but I think correcting it is going to require someone who knows what he’s doing, and has the gun on a workbench in front of him.

The Sicilian
June 26, 2006, 08:47 PM
Thanks Old Fluff, I agree. I have a friend who knows all about these revolvers but he's away on a Cowboy action shoot and won't be back until the 10th of July. I imagine he even has a few spare parts lying around that I might be able to pry away from him for little or no money at all. The nose of the hammer is fine, it's just a poorly scanned image, nothing more I could really do about the picture quality considering I scanned four dementional parts into three dementional representations. At least you got an idea as to what kind of shape the parts are in, beats a blank.

They advertise "drop in" parts and cylinders, and to a degree some do fit rather well, though, others, not so well. I guess it's the luck of the draw. A buddy of mine has a .44 Remington conversion cylinder and it dropped right in on my Uberti 1858 without any problems. Internal parts are a lot different than a cylinder and I imagine some fitting would be required, depending on the specific part. What do you think about getting stainless steel internals? Do you think they'd last longer than the normal parts that come with the guns? thanks for your help Fluff, I really do appreciate your time and advice, regardless what others may think.

The Sicilian.

gmatov
June 27, 2006, 01:18 AM
Mario,

You could start by looking at the hammer alone. If the full cock notch looks good, buy a 5 buck trigger, if it is even that much. The internals of the '51 and up to the Peacemakers we shoot today, are all the same, dimensionally. I don't think the other import makers made theirs any different from Uberti and Pietta or CSA/ASM.

These things were not hand fitted. One off gun parts ended with Eli Whitney, when he invented mass production, all parts the same, mebbe a little hand fitting due to burrs or the like, but, basically, put in a new one, shoot again.

So, buy a new trigger, try it.

Don't jump on Pohill because he says, as I did, that just a couple cycles of dry firing WILL F**K up your nipples, then you complain that even Number 11s don't fit. Don't do it.

Good luck with it. An original Colt '73 trigger will be just as authentic as the whatever generation thing it is. Still Colt. Might cost 3 times as much, but all Colt.

Cheers,

George

Old Fuff
June 27, 2006, 02:52 AM
These things were not hand fitted. One off gun parts ended with Eli Whitney, when he invented mass production, all parts the same, mebbe a little hand fitting due to burrs or the like, but, basically, put in a new one, shoot again.

I seldom disagree with gmatov, but this time I will. The lockwork parts in Colt's single action revolvers starting with the cap & ball models and going through the Army model of 1873 required hand fitting. This was particularly true of hands and cylinder bolts. During earlier times the frames, backstraps, trigger guards, cylinders, stocks, barrels and wedges were serial numbered to insure that the right parts would get back into the right guns after finishing. Shop manuals and books concerning gunsmithing of these revolvers go to great lengths to explain how these parts are fitted. Examining original 19th century examples as well as modern reproductions quickly show evidence of hand filing or polishing in certain areas. The parts themselves were machined oversized at certain points to allow hand fitting, and the practice is still carried on today.

Colt's double-action revolvers, until the 1970's were made the same way. Only then did design changes allow for a large measure of drop-in production.

gmatov
June 27, 2006, 03:15 AM
Oldfuff,

I didn't mean no fitting at all, they did do some honing and the like, and if you read the book on the Reb guns, even more.

Just that most of the parts WERE interchangeable, and still are. WE are the ones who insist on NO crescent of chamber when looking down the barrel with a light WAY better than any they could have. A range rod to see if there is misalignment is all well and good, today, but, hey, are you really shooting at a 1 inch sticker, or trying to hit the paper and get it small enough, say less than 3 inches, to come here to brag a little.

A thou off the bolt here or on the other side is immaterial. If it prevents the action from cycling, sure it needs attending to. If it is so close the pistol shoots to POA or POI, why would you try to improve on perfection?

I have either got to buy or make a Ransom type rest to see just what these things can do, held fast..

We got posters who brag that they always shoot "duelist", and they say they consider that to be one hand, and I don't believe they are actually shooting sub 1 inch groups. Pardon me if I am wrong, if you can shoot that good, and get 6 people to witness it, then post again, with links to your testifiers.

Most of us are hard pressed to get 'em into 3 inches at 25 yards. I don't think we are all of failing eyesight, nor just plain incompetent. I CAN shoot into an iinch at 200 yards with my CF 6 m/m 284, AND my 7 m/m Rem Mag.

Done, now,

Cheers,

George

sundance44s
June 27, 2006, 10:20 AM
I have to agree .. maybe some folks don`t really know the distance they are shooting ... they may be calling 15 yards 25 ...because they really don`t know ... there is a huge difference in shooting 25 yards and anything closer ... i do a lot of bench shooting ... and a 2 inch group at 25 yards even from a bench is hell to do ... and at 10 or 15 yards my remmies will hold a 2 inch group from the bench ..but at 25 .. quite a difference story , but i have the distances marked off and measured with a tape . The local club where i shoot started out with the pistol compition shooting at 25 yards after one shooting match all but 2 guys dropped out and didn`t want to shoot anymore ..lol . most couldn`t hit the paper at 25 yards . so now we shoot at 15 yards and it made a huge difference .

Old Fuff
June 27, 2006, 11:55 AM
The fine art of pistol shooting must have slipped...:(

During my youth, which would have been back during the late 1940's, bullseye target shooters (of which I was one) shot timed and rapid fire at 25 yards, and slow fire at 50. All of this of course was with iron sights and using only one hand. At the time, 3"/5 shot groups @ 25 yards were not unusual, fired in strings of 20 and 10 seconds. Under 5" groups fired during 5 minutes of slow fire at 50 yards were also not unusual. Of course the competitors were using .22/.38/.45 target pistols and revolvers as made at the time.

The FBI's combat course was fired with ordinary .38 Special revolvers with 4" barrels, at B-27 silhouette targets at ranges running from 7 to 50 yards, and the better shots could keep their shots inside the K-Zone (center of mass) at 100 yards. :eek:

On one occasion I shot a 5-shot/1-hole group running about 1 1/2" at 25 yards using an original 1851 Navy Colt. No, I never repeated that performance, but clearly the gun could have done it.

On another occasion I found a "junker" brass frame Navy reproduction, which for some reason shot like a-house-a'fire until I shot it loose. On our 50 ft. indoor gallery range I could usually interlock 3 or 4 out of 6 shots into one hole, and then pop the little NRA logo's in the corners of the target.

Ah, those were the days... :D

The Sicilian
June 27, 2006, 12:21 PM
I gotta agreee with Old Fluff. A friend of mine (Fifty years old) shot my Remington 1858 and the first time shooting it he got a 2' group duelist at fifty feet. He shot it again with a two hand hold and decreased the group size to 1 and 1/2" inches! Goes to show what a good shooter can do with one of these guns. This was at fifty feet, but regardless, for someone shooting one of these guns cold it is an excellent example of good marksmenship! He regularly shoots with a 1911 .45 at 25 yards and put all his rounds within a 3" bullseye, great shot this guy, hope I can get as good as him eventually.

I think my buddy could repeat that shooting at 25 yards (75 feet for those people who don't know how far 25 yards is :scrutiny: ) Most ranges are marked off in ten yard incriments so people should easily know how far away they are shooting at their target. If they don't then they need glasses or they like to lie to themselves. After shooting for two months with these cap and ball revolvers my group size has steadly decreased. If someone can't hit the paper at 25 yards after a few hours worth of practice they should probably find another sport. The challenge isn't hitting the paper, it's reducing the group size to under 6" at 25 yards. If I could hit within 3" inches everytime I shot at 25 yard distances I would be very satisfied with my performance...consistantly, not that "miracle" group that may have taken a few hours to finally get. I'm just happy that I'm improving and having a lot of fun. I don't expect to shoot 1" groups at 25 yards or even 2" inch groups at 25 yards off hand duelist within the next ten years or so, but I can always hope, can't I?

So even though these revolvers are capable of shooting 2" groups it is few and far between to find a guy that can shoot them consistantly. George is right about the 3" inch thing for the most part, unless the shooter is just really excellent. Maybe I just haven't seen enough people shooting BP to really know for sure? Of course people are going to post their best effort, would you scan a sh*tty target group or scan your best effort?

Low Key
June 29, 2006, 06:12 AM
Of course people are going to post their best effort, would you scan a sh*tty target group or scan your best effort?

Lol! I re-used my worst ever target because it didn't have any holes in it!! :p

They advertise "drop in" parts and cylinders, and to a degree some do fit rather well, though, others, not so well.

That's true, I have 3 pietta 1858's and I've checked the internal parts for interchangability and they don't swap between pistols...they are custom fitted to the gun they are in and won't work in another gun. Sometimes you might get a good enough fit, but mostly you would have to customize the part to work with the rest of the lockwork.

sundance44s
June 29, 2006, 09:30 AM
Thats true most public ranges have the yardage marked .. but i know a lot of us shoot in the out back .. old dry gulches , dumps ..the woods behind the house etc. and some times what looks like a long shot for a pistol is really only 15 yards or so ..shooting at a marked 25 yards makes one hell of a difference ... i`m old dead eye at 15 yards with my remmies .. but when i move it out to 25 yards mabe i don`t see so good anymore ..lol ( i did shoot expert in the military with a 45 acp ...but that was 35 years ago and now i wonder how i did it ) but if i ever make a come back it will be with my weapon of choice a 1858 44 Remmie !

The Sicilian
June 29, 2006, 03:25 PM
Hahaha,

Very true sundance! 25 yards is a whole different ball game compared to fifty feet! I was shooting pretty good yesterday at fifty feet (I warm up at fifty) but as soon as I moved out to 25 yards things got rather...sloppy. Last time I did great at 25 yds., maybe it was the new loads I was using? I was shooting a cartrige gun. I would have shot my BP revolvers but I forgot my powder! :banghead: Won't let that happen again :D Maybe I should just start out at 25 yrds. instead of warming up at 50 feet? A good shooting buddy of mine told me to shoot to my ability, not to move up until I can group small at fifty feet but some of the older guys on the forum here said I should just practice at 25 yards. I'm hell of confused now! Any really good target shooters here have any advice on the best way to improve (besides simply saying practice, practice, practice)?

Sicilian.

sundance44s
June 29, 2006, 05:24 PM
Sicilian my last 6 months in the military were at group Baltimore, man was i bord not enough time left for a duty station assignment .. luck have it there was an indoor range in the group building so every night me and the gunners mate spent many hours shooting the 45`s and the range was 25 yards only .. after about 2 months of shooting every night i requalified and shot expert with the 45 acp .. so moral of the story when ya ain`t sitting on a stool eating those blue crab cakes and beer .. shoot ..shoot shoot . lol

chrisbob
June 29, 2006, 11:31 PM
I bought an army 1860 made by Lyman from a freind for 20 bucks I ordered parts from dixie gun works ( 10 yrs ago) they required some minor fitting but the gun shoots excellent at 50 ft. Good considering it didn't work at all when I got it but he told me up front it needed work. I recently bought a ( I think ) navy 1858 44 cal. from traditions made by pietta w/ kit for $200 I have been trying different ball sizes and loads sometimes it shoots accuratly at 50 sometimes I can't hit the paper. Practice, patience, finding just the right load will make the difference. I also shoot better with a gun after I have had it awhile and get used to it. It has taken me several trips to the range to get my t-c penn hunter 50 cal zeroed in 2" groups at 100 yrds I am hoping to improve that next time.

chrisbob
June 29, 2006, 11:58 PM
I should have added that I used 4f goex in the army lyman. I have been using pyrodex 3 in the the 50 cal. and navy. I am going to get some fffg to try in the others I like goex better.

the 44 navy I am not sure on the year of replication, but it has a full brass frame the top (over the cylinder ) is open 8" octagonal barrel.

I don't want to impose on your thread, but my ? is not worth starting a new one :o :)

Smokin_Gun
June 30, 2006, 02:56 AM
Good idea on the fffg black powder.

The Sicilian
June 30, 2006, 07:23 AM
I think it's an Army, not a Navy, at least if it's an 1858. FFF is the stuff to use in these revolvers, FFFF probably burns too fast, possibly giving you bad accuracy, ask the older guys, I'm only moderately experienced so far. I've got a Hawkens rifle made by TC that I still haven't fired yet, I'll check it out eventually, probably when the weather turns cooler.

Old Fuff
June 30, 2006, 01:11 PM
Four-F black powder is intended to be used for priming flintlocks, and is generally too fine to use in pistols or revolvers. Two-F or Three-F is recommended for them. When using a black powder substitute follow the maker's recommendations.

If the powder is too fine, and packed as it is supposed to be in a revolver chamber, you get in effect a solid charge, which is actually slower to ignite then a courser powder that has space between the graduals. Obviously the powder in a flintlock pan is not packed and Four-F powder ignites quickly.

gmatov
July 1, 2006, 03:09 AM
Shooting at 50 feet is great, if you CAN'T hit the paper ar 25 yards.

Once you adjust either the sights or the hold, you should go to 25, or even 50 yards.

If you can get it on paper at 50, and into a little group, then you can brag. And I will give you a high 5 for it.

I have only belonged to half a dozen shooting ranges, gun clubs, actually, never been to one that is marked off in ten yard increments.

Are you guys talking about pay per hour ranges?

Cheers,

George

The Sicilian
July 1, 2006, 08:39 AM
The range I go to George is marked off every 20 feet, so it's not quite every ten yards. One spot is clearly marked...25 yards!!! Kind of makes you think, doesn't it? I shoot at 25 yards all day yesterday, pretty fun and I as hitting the paper without a problem but the groups weren't too pretty. I was using a 10" X 12" shoot and see and the target circle was an eight incher. There wasn't much room for not making it into the paper. I had a few flyers that hit onto my cardboard though...not too bad. My Remington is almost completely dialed in, just need to move the front dovetail a touch more to the right. Can you believe I took it to a gun smith and he couldn't even move the damn sight! I went out and bought a little desk top 4" vice and did it myself. The front sight moved for me! :D

Old Fluff...You were right about the 1860, too unsafe to shoot the way the trigger is right now. I pulled off six shots and it shot nice, albeit slightly high (maybe three inches or so, no big deal, the notch in the hammer sight needs to be deepened slightly.) I'll just have to be patient and what for my friend to get back from his CAS trip. A new trigger should be all it needs but I'd like to get a new hammer also, the second notch looks a little worn to me, best to be safe. The caps exited the cylinder perfectly! My last Colt styled cap & ball was constantly getting jammed up by spent caps but this one spits them out the side very nicely. Can't wait to give it a proper breaking in! I've been using Remington caps lately, they're a little smaller, less length to them. I'll have to try some CCI's on the 1860 and see if I get the same results. Thanks for the advice.

Sicilian.

chrisbob
July 2, 2006, 01:35 AM
My lyman and t-c are being dailed in as we speak. Nicely ,I may add. the traditions 44 navy is what the package said , but it didn't say the year. the front sight is an unadjustable front pin made from brass. the rear sight is a notch in the hammer at full cock. It shoots high at 25' but it is centered well should I try a longer range I use 30gr. pppg .451 rd. ball #11 rem. cap.
can file or manipulate the sights without damage to the gun
I have alot of ?'s.
Should I start a new thread ( even though I am not on here enough to watch it) if anyone can help me send me a note unless it pertains to this thread.

gmatov:
My club is private I pay an annuall fee of 52$ a year I can hunt fish camp shoot at 4 diff. ranges . It is very limited to accepting new members they do not mark the ranges in any way other than to clean up your own mess . on about 750 acres that border on the state forrest I can walk for 3+ miles w/out seeing another road :)

The Sicilian
July 2, 2006, 02:12 AM
Your revolver sounds like an 1851 Navy and you can get emails alerting you to the posts you're watching, that way you don't have to keep checking back to see if anyone answered your questions, just go to your personal account settings. You can file the notch deeper on your hammer, just be careful, you can't put back the metal you remove. What kind of a load are you shooting with, how many grains of powder? And what size ball are you shooting with? the heavier the ball the higher the point of impact. A lighter ball will help lower the POI a little, but not too much, best thing to do is adjust your load and file your sites a bit. I get good accuracy with 22-25 grains of black powder/Goex. By the way, is your gun a brass framed or a steel framed model?

What range do you belong to, sounds like a State run shoooting range by the cheap membership fee.

Sicilian.

chrisbob
July 2, 2006, 03:19 AM
I have an old computer I just got another one but haven't set it up yet so I have probs w/ messaging I have to turn mine off to send and receive anything new
the last message I sent you answers all of the ?'s you asked
I use 30 grains of pyrodex p the fffg equivalent that is what was recomended in the manuel and what the measure dishes out that came in the kit it also came with .454 rnd balls. I just ran out of them and tried some .451 rnd balls but I can't get reliable results should I lower the charge to 25 grains. Filing the sight is an extreme last resort.

The Sicilian
July 2, 2006, 04:15 AM
Actually, filing the sight isn't extreme at all, most of us BP shooters wind up filing something sooner or later anyway. Before you do file the sight though, try decreasing the charge to 25 grains, maybe even decrease it to 22 grains, then see what kind of elevation you get after that. A .40 cal cartridge will throw a charge of around 22 grains, a heavy charge would give you around 25 grains. Do you have access to some .40 cal shells? You shouldn't have any problem finding some lying around on your shooting range. I think a .45 cal shell will throw around 30 grains, but you already have something for thirty grains. Also, a 9mm shell will throw appr. 15 grains. I think you should stay above 20 grains of powder, anything less would probably give poor results.

How often are you cleaning you're bore while you're shooting? I tend to swab mine out every 24 shots or so, fouling can fill the rifling and cause poor accuracy so make sure you run a few patches through your bore. I spray my patches with glass cleaner and run them through the bore using a decent cleaning jag. You can also run a brass bristled brush through your bore before you hit it with the patches. I like to spray glass cleaner down the barrel while my finger is covering the breech area, then I cover the muzzle with my other hand and shake it back and forth, dumping out all of the fouling out the muzzle. It works pretty good for me and the bore shines nicely.

How many shots can you get out of your revolver before it starts to bind up? Once you know how many shots you can get out of it before it starts getting fouled you'll know when it's a good time for a bore cleaning. I don't own an 1851 Navy so I can't say too much about what ball size you should use, but I think .454 is probably the largest they'll take. My Remington (Uberti) will take a .457 just like my Ruger Old Army, it's supposed to grap the rifling a little better, giving better accuracy. Fool around with all of the different parameters and see what your revolver likes the best. What kind of powder are you using? Pyrodex right? That's pretty good powder, supposedly very consistant. If you can get some Goex Black powder, do so, it's better than the synthetics. When I first started shooting I liked the synthetics better, but the more I shot the more I began to like the real thing better than the newer stuff. Nothing like the Holy Black!

Sicilian.

Manyirons
July 2, 2006, 10:12 AM
Mario!

Think youd be on that loadin lever awhile tryin ta get a .454 in a 1851 Navy! .380 is what i use.

H777 is jus fine, ya gotta know what it likes an it DONT want lots of compressin, ya can compensate with a few grains black fer a booster, and it smooths out.

DONT like goex myself, an tha BOSS wont have it on tha property, uses SWISS. When i'm burnin charcoal, so do i, cleaner, better velocity, accuracy. Ta be fair, mebbe tha new well milled goex'll be better UNTIL they start cuttin corners again.

The Sicilian
July 2, 2006, 02:46 PM
Hehehe,

Manyirons, You still alive! Good! :D It's a .44 1851, shouldn't have said Navy huh? I need to get some swiss, you;re right, Goex is very dirty, lots of fouling, I wish somebody around my way sold Swiss...is it really that clean? I guess I'll have to break down and order some since nobody around my way supplies it. The Goex is fine in my Ruger (That thing never binds up but I still have to swab out the bore every so often) I still like Goex better than Pyrodex though! :D

ManyIrons,

Would the Mann make some stainless steel internals for my 1860 Colt? It's a third generation so the parts are all Uberti...How much would they cost me? Oh yeah, are those conical bullets available now? Do you guys have a web site yet or what?

Manyirons
July 2, 2006, 03:08 PM
Yup, he DOES make stainless parts fer 1860, but theys usual in a full tune and AINT cheap stuff! Super competitors like em, but theys makin money!Second week of July fer tha .44s, and Swiss burns purty clean IF ya loads it ta good pressure. Website? Been around awhile!

http://www.bigironbarrels.com/default.htm

The Sicilian
July 2, 2006, 06:13 PM
Thanks brother, nice sight!

Has anyone checked out the new bullets yet?

Manyirons
July 2, 2006, 06:26 PM
Mario!

If ya looked at tha FORUM fer BigIron ya woulda seen a write up on em BY MEC thats been here fer a few months now i think.

They DO work!

Or go to tha bigiron forum, look under tha PRODUCT REVIEWS.

Duncaninfrance
July 2, 2006, 06:53 PM
See you finally got a job title Thom, well done!
Been out for a bucket of steam yet! :D
Duncan

Manyirons
July 2, 2006, 07:47 PM
Bucket of steam?!?!?!?! Hell i've not even found tha prop wash yet!

chrisbob
July 3, 2006, 10:03 PM
I have a small measure 5 to 50 grains, but it is cumbersome to use for a revolver I will find some spent shells to find the right charge. I can load 6 of them without laying my gun down between measures. I load them with the cylinder in, because I don't have a loader to do it w/ the cylinder out. I used 27 grns w/ 451 rnd ball in my lyman.

I started w/ goex and liked it ,but my local dealer doesn't get it unless he orders alot because of the s&h charges are high atleast that is what he said he lost his ffl recently so I have to drive 20 miles to get anything.

I don't want to file any internal parts but the external parts I will if the prob isn't solved with the charge. plus it is new and I want it look as beautiful 10 yrs from now as it does now

I clean it while shooting after 18 to 24 rnds it get a little stiff. After I get home I use hot water w/ dish soap. then dry it very thoroughly if it fits in the oven I heat it to 200degrees for 3 min. coat it w/ crisco or bore butter put it back in for 3.5 min. take it out wipe it down w/ with a grease soaked rag then let cool then wipe down again with a semi dry rag
this keeps them primed for long term storage.

even if you shoot them they stay clean for a few days unless they are over shot.

I never use petroleum based products on my b/p arms.

I am always open to advice and will try it It may a month before I get back to the range but anything anyone can add will add up to a productive day there

The Sicilian
July 3, 2006, 10:19 PM
No problem Chrisbob, just trying to help. When you do find some shells, twist a thin piece of flexible wire around the base of the shell to use as a dipper handle, makes things easier and cleaner. Use your powder measure to re-check the grains per shell I gave you, you might get slightly different results than I did. Seems like you have everything pretty much covered now, Hell! It's not rocket science or anything, just be careful not to blow yourself up! :D have a good time when you do finally get to the range.

Sicilian.

gmatov
July 4, 2006, 02:29 AM
Mario,

I forget where you are from. 52 bucks a year is a little high, down here, for gun club dues. I forget what my club cost 40 years ago when I first joined. 10 bucks, mebbe. Rejoined 2 years ago and the initiation was 50, annual dues, 30 bucks.

We have a pond for the kids, 100 and 200 yd ranges, covered with benches, 25 yd covered with benches, pistol range, covered with benches, shotgun pattern range, covered, again with benches, and special pistol range, covered with benches, and there you can use full auto weapons.

Archery trails for the bow men, etc, though I don't get into that. Couple hundred acres, all grandfathered into the local use ordinances. We were here first, someone wants to build houses over the hill, don't bitch about the noise.

Chrisbob,

The size of ball you need can be determined by measuring the chamber mouths, or by getting a 451 ball and trying to seat it, if it slips in easily, no shearing of lead all the way around, a bit too small for a sure seal and for a good grip on the rifling. Ie, the shaved diameter will only have a little of the round outside of the ball gripping the rifling. Kinda stripping the ball as it flies. Very narrow flat on the side of the ball.

A 454 or 457 would have a larger flat on the side, more area to grip the rifling, and, if you have a bore that is close to chamber diameter, you have the best of both worlds. Mind, if you have small chambers, they will be harder to ram home on pistol.
What makes your measure cumbersome to use? Is it too large a diameter, makes it tough to pour the powder into the chambers? There are measures that have a swing aside top that is smaller diameter. Personally, I like them, for the 36 calibres, cumbersome, to me, for 44 cal pistols.

If you HAVE a powder scale, I would suggest you measure out a charge, and weigh it. You may be posting a 25 grain charge and shooting 18, or vice wersa. Measures are not at all accurate, for the most part..

Before you try grinding the hammer notch sight down, try upping the charge. The faster the ball leaves the barrel, the flatter it shoots. You might "adjust" your pistol to shoot POA-POI at 20 grains BP, find it shoots 6 inches low with a healthy load.

Cheers,

George

chrisbob
July 4, 2006, 04:43 AM
I don't have a scale to weigh the charge. I have been buying one thing at a time to build up my tools.:)

the club I belong to was $15 a year 8 yrs ago. now the state is trying to take it to build interstate 69 right through the middle of it now it is 52 $ a year but this is paying for alot of improvement of the property. I wasn't convinced at first but now I have seen the finished product. we are fighting the state as are many private land owners around us who could lose their homes and properties.:fire: :cuss:

The Sicilian
July 4, 2006, 09:48 AM
Interesting George,

Up the charge huh? I keep getting bad information....Someone told me that a heavier ball/bullet would lower the POI, which is wrong, after I thought about it for myself for a few moments I realized this made no sense and that a lighter bullet would bring down the POI. But increasing the charge has given me bad results, not better accuracy. Usually, a lower charge gives better accuracy. In theory a heavier charge will give flatter bullet flight, and it works well in a rifle, but in a revolver I've had bad luck with heavier charges. Good idea...about using a scale to weigh the charges powder measures throw, been thinking about weighing mine for the past few days, just haven't got to it yet. I figured that Chrisbob didn't have a scale either, so the point was mute in his case. I'm curious, what kind of increase would you recommend for bringing down the trajectory? Maybe 28 to 30 grains? I tried 35 grains once and it gave me horrible accuracy...could have been me not being used to the recoil though, just to think through all the different parameters that could effect the POI. For the most part though, recoil is not a problem.

Sicilian.

Old Fuff
July 4, 2006, 11:30 AM
In my experience, slightly lighter charges often result in better accuracy - which is usually what I'm looking for. Having found the "right" load I dovetail the barrel and mount a front sight that can be adjusted for elevation and windage. I would note that this was sometimes done during the 19th century, as I have seen (and owned) a number of original revolvers that were so modified.

Concerning Colt replicas. Remove the cylinder and then pull the hammer back until it is stopped by hitting the backstrap. Then ease it forward until the trigger engages the full-cock notch. Notice that as the hammer rotates forward the nose of the hammer (where the rear sight notch is located) goes up because the hammer is moving in an arc.

At this point all kinds of lightbulbs should be going on... :D

chrisbob
July 5, 2006, 04:57 AM
sicillian thanx for letting me intrude on your thread i have received alot of information
gmatov thanx I need to take my b/p's and info to the range

w/out experience talk is cheap :D

gmatov
July 5, 2006, 05:32 AM
I agree with Oldfuff, light loads are usually more accurate. Within reason, anyhow.

The question here is with balls hitting high, any windage is correctable, whether it is you or the pistol.

A fast ball, NOT a big assed heavy ball, a conical, will leave the barrel before you get too uch muzzle rise, and you are GONNA get that, even if you shoot blanks. If it leaves the barrel before it rises too high, you will be closer to POA.

If you shoot a low powder charge, couple hundred FPS slower, the recoill will raise the muzzle higher when the ball leaves the barrel, shoot high.

Same for every firearm ever made. Flat shooting hi-power rifles not only have flatter trajectory, they leave the barrel quicker, before it has kicked you on your ass.

Simple, really, and we got a guy born 100 years ago to thank for this great insight.

Cheers,

George

The Sicilian
July 13, 2006, 10:09 PM
Interesting...very interesting. Physically, scientifically, it makes perfect sense. But as we all know, real world tests sometimes go against good physics. Theoretically the ball should leave the bore faster if under more pressure and thus exiting before the muzzle has a chance to rise. The problem is more powder tends to create more recoil. So even though a faster charge should help the projectile leave the bore before too much muzzle rise, I doubt it will transfer to the shooter, i.e., the POI will still be high. A reduced charge gives the best of both worlds, controllable recoil and accurate POI. At least in my humble opinion and by the tests I've done in the field. It could be that I haven't increased the charge enough to get to the point that George is talking about. I'll probably never try it considering a lighter charge works great for me and it also conserves powder. And conservation is important, considering that powder prices are set to go up by 20% next shipment!!!! :cuss:

Sicilian.

chrisbob
July 14, 2006, 12:38 AM
it is nice to hear opions , but are there any statistics to back it up?? I can't take opions to the range if I keep talking enough I may become a senior member also:neener:

The Sicilian
July 14, 2006, 01:03 AM
Statistics are worse than opinions:what: Just go to the range and load a few cylinders with heavy (35-40 grains) charges...note your results. Then load a few cylinders with around 22-25 grains of powder (for a .44 cal) and check out the results. I bet you'll get more accurate results from the lighter charges. :neener:

Sicilian.

chrisbob
July 14, 2006, 02:39 AM
the sarcasm is so thick I am still wiping it of of my keyboard. 1 month ago you asked for advice from exp. bp arms shooters. I guess you are an expert now I apologize for wasting your valuable time w/ my stupid ?s .


this is a forum for discussion I have been shooting bp arms for over 20 yrs I don't always ask ?'s for me sometimes it is for the general public or my friends who don't have a computer. Perhaps you could be a bit nicer or polite after all no matter how good you think you are there is always someone better. sorry for for being a butt I really don't like to be :o

Old Fuff
July 14, 2006, 03:05 AM
Black powder as formulated during the middle 19th century was courser and less uniform then today's counterpart, and because charges were determined by what volume a chamber could hold I believe that in effect the charges were lighter, or to put it another way they produced lower velocities. This had the effect of causing the ball or bullet to strike lower.

The plow-handle shape of these revolvers, combined (usually) with plain, uncheckered walnut stocks, "encouraged" the gun to roll upward in the hand to better position the thumb to cock the hammer for the next shot. But when this effect is combined with heavy powder charges and long barrels the result is vertical stringing of shots that often impact above the point of aim.

Many reproduction Colt-style revolvers do not bring the hammer back far enough so that the back of the hammer touches the backstrap when the hammer is a full-cock. If the hammer is further forward while at full-cock the net effect it to raise the rear sight on the hammer nose because it is revolving in an arc. This too can contribute to high shots above the point of aim.

gmatov
July 14, 2006, 03:26 AM
Chrisbob,

Don't get too excited, here. I appreciate your post, understand where you are coming from.

Mario,

If you load 40 grs in your Rem every time, you will probably, not guaranteed, cut the center out of your tatget.

If you load 20 to 25 grains, you will probably, depending on your hold, cut as small a group as the above, but a couple inches higher.

I'm sorry if you can't understand the simple fact that if the ball leaves the barrell faster, the recoil continues after the ball is gone, a matter of the extra ejecta, read, the overage of powder.
If you should consider, the ball weighs 142 grains, the powder weighs 40 grains. You are pushing 182 grains of mass out the muzzle. It goes faster with the 40 grain load, leaves the barrel so fast the muzzle rises just a little.

You load 20 grains, the total is 162 grains, but the velocity is so low that the ball is still in the barrell, and the pistol IS recoiling, just that the ball is still going down the barrell, when it leaves, the muzzle is pointing higher, you WILL shoot high.

Do you kapisch this?

Here's an example. In WWII, the Germans came up with an 77 MM and 88 MM cannon. FAST sumbitch. Every shot was point blank. Absolutely flat shooting, BECAUSE it was so fast. Killed our tanks.

You want to lob balls on the paper, thinking lower powder charge is better. Yeah, they are, but only if you are shooting paper. What, 600 FPS, the same as Mec has chronied APP at, for 30 grain loads? Hell, 22 shorts, one of the most accurate loads ever developed, are that slow. We won't shoot such a slow round today. Our loss.

Cheers,

George

chrisbob
July 14, 2006, 03:47 AM
sorry doesn't mean much but I am sincere I should not and don't ussually talk when my dander is up. my fault and I accept any and all responsibility for my words and actions .:(

The Sicilian
July 14, 2006, 09:13 AM
You know, I was answering you out of kindness and with a little humor. This **** isn't rocket science! No...I'm not an expert, but I'm not a dumb ass either. Seems like you're another one of those ******* types lookin to start **** over nothing. I thought this place was called the high road, not the "Low road". If you want to take cheap shots at people why don't you find another forum? You seemed happy enough for my advice earlier. I wonder how many shots you've squeezed off in your revolvers? I've easily put over 5,000 shots through mine which equals a decent amount of sgooting experience with BP pistols. Man! I'm sick of *******s like you. Humble at first, then brave after they "think" they've got a feel for how things work on this forum. You took the wrong approach from watching the responses of some of the more "bitter" guys. Kiss my ass!

The Sicilian.

Smokin_Gun
July 14, 2006, 10:01 AM
For me and mine, I have fun and can blow stuff away real good shootin' 40gr now and then with one a my Rems especially at 75-100yds.
But my pet load is 28gr of BP fffg in .44s. Good groups and can hit most anything at what ever distance. 22-24gr is a good target and practical load, smaller groups, but about the same as 28gr depending on the Rev.
In my .36 I shoot 24-28gr of BP for fun and testing, but it seems to like 18gr (15-20gr avg.)tighter groups.
But that's the fun of finding a load you like and what ever works best for you and you have the most fun with is what I would suggest a shooter shoots.

Make sense? HeHe!
Now as an infamous quote was said "Go Make Smoke!"

SG
:D

dwave
July 14, 2006, 10:05 AM
My 58 seems to like 35 gr. really well. Shoots tighter than 30 or 25. My 51 navy on the other hand prefers the lighter load of 15 gr.

gmatov
July 15, 2006, 02:07 AM
Mario,

Cut the guy a break. You are getting p***ed at him, with a few months experience, he is getting p***ed at you, and with 20 years experience.

I gotta say you are wrong here, whether you get your Sicilian blood up or not. And I am not happy with you always getting PO'd at anybody who says anything against you, and I think I go back a few months to where you were ready to send your goombahs down to break my kneecaps.

FACT: A heavy, slow, ball, will ALWAYS recoil the barrell, and the pistol, more than a fast light ball. Mass X velocity. The ball has not left the barrell, but the ball IS moving, and if it is heavy, it WILL rise, and you WILL shoot high. PERIOD.

A light, fast ball, will exit the barrell before there is much recoil. It WILL shoot closer to POA than the heavy ball. No question.

If we stick with the 142 gr round ball, the same, the faster it leaves the barrell, the less the barrell rises, the lower the POI-POA.

That cannot be argued, unless you just want to say you know better than everybody else here. ( "I've done this, it AIN'T SO!!! )

G'damn, it IS SO. Physics is physics, and being a Sicilian don't mean it ain't so. Who you gonna send the guys against next? Einstein?

Cheers,

George

pohill
July 15, 2006, 02:46 AM
I gotta say, as a guy with a short fuse sometimes myself, I was kinda surprised at the attack on the Sicilian. The thread was moving along just fine and them BANG! Chrisbob had a bad day, but he apologized. I thought the Sicilian's info was pretty good, and freely offered. I just didn't sense any sarcasm. And, geez, George, don't bring the Mafia into this.
As far as POA and all that, I've said it before - the ball will go where it will go. If your gun shoots to the right, aim to the left. Shoots low, aim high. Even if a gun shoots dead on, with any kind of load, you gotta take the shooter's ability into consideration. Shooting has to be reflexive.

chrisbob
July 15, 2006, 03:18 AM
I took It the wrong way I am always learning I don't think any of us will ever be done I am sorry for replying in anger I know better, but I let my ass talk for my head I will continue to read this post, but will not interupt your thread....:)

sincerely ED

The Sicilian
July 15, 2006, 11:41 AM
I'm sorry too, Chris, I'm just sick of people getting bent out of shape over things perceived and not really intended. George, that's just bull****! You've just had a bone to pick with me from the begining, since I've been here, and for no good reason. It was you who responded like an ass in the first place, not me. Plenty of people told you so too, you're just saying I get pissed easily because you happened to be one of the people who spoke when in the wrong. And yes, my shooting experience (time-wise) may be much less, but that doesn't mean too much if a person has brains. Theoritical physics is different than real world physics, the ball may leave the barrel faster but you're still going to get more recoil from the heavier charge. I went to range yesterday and talked to many of the old guys, most of them reloaders and great shots. They know quite a bit about ballistics, and it just ain't so. There is a point when a heavy charge gives good accuracy, I'm not arguing that point, it's all harmonics. But reguardless, if you use more powder, you'll get more muzzle rize, end of story. We disagree and you bring personal issues into it and that's wrong. I didn't come off like a jerk but I did get upset because I'm sick of people acting like *******s before they really think about what they're saying.

I know a few guys that have been shooting for 30 years and they still can't hit ****! I've been shooting BP (Technically) for only a few months and I'm getting better and better each trip to the range. So stop bringing up how many years and all the supposed experience you've got, it really doesn't matter so much. I'm here becaue some of the guys are very cool and never fly of the hinge like you do and some of the others, especially over stupid ****. For some reason people like to pick on the most inqisitive guy, the guy who wants to learn the most. If you want to die a bitter old ******* that's your business but stop giving your opinion if you can't do it in a kind manner. I like you man but you need to relax, not me. I just want to have good time and help out if I can.

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