Flaw in Fobus design?


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PinnedAndRecessed
June 23, 2006, 12:20 AM
I didn't see this posted anywhere, but if it has, mods feel free to lock it.
(Like they need my permission anyway, right? :) )

http://media.putfile.com/gungrab-fobus

I was thinking of Fobus for my CCW but think I'll go with Safariland.

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WayneConrad
June 23, 2006, 12:53 AM
Are you a cop? Do you purposefully grapple with bad guys? I wouldn't worry about unless you are or do. The real-world cases where people have taken carry guns--especially concealed ones--from ordinary guys aren't evident.

Edmond
June 23, 2006, 01:49 AM
Wow. These past two days, I've seen two LEO's in shirt/tie carry in Fobus holsters. I've always thought that Fobus holsters were a cheapie holster to get you by until you get something better. I would never carry in any sort of capacity in a Fobus.

bpisler
June 23, 2006, 02:05 AM
The fobus holster for my magnum j frame fits
real tight,unless one draws the pistol just
right it's not coming out.The one i had for a
9VE sigma was different,it was made to fit
2-3 different pistols and the sigma was not
a great fit.

PinnedAndRecessed
June 23, 2006, 02:17 AM
Are you a cop?

No. And quite frankly, I'd seen so many posters on numerous forums singing the praises of Fobus that I assumed the holsters were top quality.

I didn't realize they were popular because they were inexpensive, and were inexpensive because they were cheaply made.


I think I kind of like desantis.

http://forestandfield.stores.yahoo.net/desantis.html

autospike
June 23, 2006, 02:31 AM
bpisler:
Did you watch the video? He ripped the entire holster off the guy, not just pulled the gun out of the holster.

WayneConrad:
I'm not a cop, but I wouldn't bet my life on never having to grapple for a gun (or any other weapon). If you get tied up in a tangle, and the bad guy figures out you have a weapon (by seeing it, or feeling, it or seeing you start a drawstroke), it's in play.

Strap an airsoft on and have a buddy (or two) thug you. It'll open your eyes.

Fobus is crap. DeSantis is better. If you like kydex, you might think about Blade-Tech, Comp-Tac - just to name a couple.

WeedWhacker
June 23, 2006, 03:59 AM
Personally, I prefer the Fobus holsters for carry, both open and concealed. If you think ANY holster short of a full-blown on-belt "cop duty rig" will cope well with a 200lb monkey swinging off the end of it, you're in for a suprise.

Also note that the "BG" didn't try a natural grab - he actually pushed down on it, etc. I'd be much more interested in what would happen in a more realistic scenario, where the "BG" tries to yank the pistol/holster to himself, rather than push it away.

The Fobus paddle holsters are great for convenient open carry in a low-threat environment... and just as good (if not better) as any other holster for concealed carry. I say "if not better" because my leather holsters don't have any real retention features other than friction, whereas the Fobus grabs on to the front of the Glock trigger guard. "Retention", in this case, refers to things like straps, etc., which I don't like dangling near/in the trigger guard... O.o

WayneConrad
June 23, 2006, 06:02 AM
"If you get tied up in a tangle..."

Now we're getting very low on the list of probable things. It's much more likely that I'll get injured in a fall when hunting, or die in an accident when driving, or succumb to disease. I recon the same is true of most of us non-cop type people. Given that this scenario people worry so much about -- someone grapping with me and taking my gun -- doesn't seem to happen to people that don't go looking for trouble, spending extra money on a good holster is going to divert money away from things that are more likely to increase my lifespan and health. It's better to spend my money and energy on good boots, a safe car, and regular doctor visits. This cheap holster I use just isn't on the list of things likely to cause me harm.

I'd love to see the real-world cases that show this is more than an imaginary concern. I think that gun grabs -- for folks that don't go looking for trouble -- happen somewhere between extraordinary rarely and never.

CajunBass
June 23, 2006, 07:12 AM
You just wait until the mutant ninja gummie bears from outer space try to take your gun. :what: You'll be sorry.

I like my Fobus holster. It was "inexpensive." Sounds a lot better than "cheap."

1 old 0311
June 23, 2006, 07:37 AM
#1 Concealed means "concealed.'
#2 Aware of your surroundings means 'being aware of your surroundings.'

The perp could also just hit him in the head with a rock, and disarm him. Ignore the first two and the rest kind of falls apart.


Kevin

autospike
June 23, 2006, 10:14 AM
Wow.

I hesitated to even post. Now I'm sorry I did. :uhoh:
I'm training HARD so that I'll be prepared in the worst of all possible situations.
I'll go back where I came from.

lance22
June 23, 2006, 10:41 AM
Yeah ... a lot of people love Fobus because it's cheap and gets the job done (pretty much). Some of their stuff isn't bad.

Fobus is at the bottom of the quality spectrum. Slightly above it is Uncle Mike. They call their stuff Kydex but not all of it is ... lots of other plastics and polymers are mixed in with their injection mold-formula. Injection molded holsters are harder, more brittle, more stiff, more prone to abrasion ...

The better stuff uses real kydex, and it isn't injection molded, but thermoformed. It's also three times more expensive. For these I suggest that you sample a BearClaw Holsters (http://www.bearclawholsters.com) or a Dan Hilllsman holster (http://www.hillsmanholster.com). There are many other notables who make good Kydex though I think Dan and BearClaw have thought things out a little better. Thermoformed KYDEX (real kydex) is softer, more pliable, less prone to abrasion.

Fobus and Uncle Mike are the massed produced injection molded products. Others are custom made thermoformed. That is the difference.

I don't diss' anyone having Fobus or Uncle Mike. That stuff is pragmatic. I'm just saying there are differences in materials, methods of manufacture, et all.

WayneConrad
June 23, 2006, 11:07 AM
autospike, If you are sorry you posted then I have stated my opinion harshy. I am sorry. It's good that you are thinking of all possibilities. I hope that you won't let my abrasiveness keep you from posting in the future.

s10ryan
June 23, 2006, 11:09 AM
ive never had experience with a fobus holster but my galco holster is awesome!

SuperNaut
June 23, 2006, 11:28 AM
I dig my Galco too. I wrote several different versions of the break-in process, all sounded entirely too sexual. So I'll just say: Don't worry, they break-in.;)

CAS700850
June 23, 2006, 11:38 AM
As always, you must choose your equipment for the purpose you intend to use it. If you want a holster for range carry, or casual concealed carry (low risk), you can use the less expensive holsters with no concerns. If you are a bailiff in a courthouse where the real possibility of a struggle for your weapon exists, you should get a high end holster and belt rig, with added sucurity features. And always remember, even a level IV holster can be defeated given enough time and intellect on the part of the BG. Safety features only buy you time to try and prevent the disarm.

rchernandez
June 23, 2006, 11:56 AM
I didn't realize they were popular because they were inexpensive, and were inexpensive because they were cheaply made.

They are Israeli designed and manufactured. They are very "effective" for the local conditions from where they came. And yes! they are very affordable.

I love watching shoppers at our local indoor range trying out the Fobus holsters and after 10 minutes of trying to "extract" their pistols, walk over to the cashier for help:D

Comp-tac holsters remain my favorite.

Wayne D
June 23, 2006, 01:40 PM
The problem with their paddle holster is that the rivets that hold the holster to the paddle are too close to the edge and the plastic will break allowing the rivets to pull through. I was getting into a sports car with the kind of bucket seats that wrap around your sides. The muzzle stuck in the side support of the seat and as I sat down the holster pulled away from the paddle causing what you see in the picture.
http://webpages.charter.net/wayned/Fobus%20Broke%202.jpg

calzoom
June 23, 2006, 02:09 PM
I tried to rip the paddle off my Fobus yesterday after viewing the video on TFL. I couldn't get it done.

So I determined with very little thought processing that my Fobus was designed to carry my weaponry, very comfortably, and was NOT designed to be packing around a 180# + man!

Therefore it is up to me to keep the heavier objects off equipment that have design features not conducive to Packing heavy people. ;)

autospike
June 23, 2006, 02:45 PM
autospike, If you are sorry you posted then I have stated my opinion harshy. I am sorry. It's good that you are thinking of all possibilities. I hope that you won't let my abrasiveness keep you from posting in the future.


No apology necessary: It's really not your tone. I guess it's just frustration; I suppose it's just that my concerns and my perception of the world doesn't match with a lot of other folks.

I am 100% in favor of developing and honing your awareness skills so that you don't let anyone in close enough to damage you. I am also well aware of keeping my weapons concealed. I actively train both with others who feel the way that I do.

I *do* think that If I get into a situation where I'm having to defend myself with empty hands, or a stick, or a rock, or a knife, or a gun, I have probably made some error.

BUT, I also believe that the "real world" (admittedly my perception of the real world) puts me into many situations where my best awareness skills may not be good enough. And, I acknowledge that I'm not perfect.

If I get targeted for a *criminal assault*, I don't believe that the bad guy is going to give me a fair chance. I don't believe he'll be alone either. He probably will not know I'm armed. Maybe he'll approach me with a ruse. Maybe it will be his defenseless looking 17 year old girlfriend that approaches with her baby, asking me for help - while he comes up from behind me.

Do I train for that - to recognize that - to handle an "unknown contact" and scan/identify others? Yup, I do. But again, I'm only human. And I have a wife and two small children and sometimes one or more of them are with me and sometimes, they require a lot of my attention. They also put me in a place where I can't just cut and run if I'm presented with an unpleasant situation.

So for those reasons I train for the worst. For the time when I've made a mistake and one or more guys have closed in on me and I'm attacked, and we grapple, and he discovers my gun, and he goes for it, and we go to the ground and... you get the picture.

Stats on private citizens getting their guns taken? I have no idea. All I know is that if it gets to the point where someone is laying hands on you, and they detect your weapon, it's in play.

So I'm training for the worst so those who aren't serious about doing me harm will be easier to deal with.

Shipwreck
June 23, 2006, 03:36 PM
I've seen this video and topic discussed on a prev post - I don't think I would want to own one of those things....

scooterthegreat
June 23, 2006, 03:46 PM
I have a Fobus holster that I use for USPSA shoots. It serves very well for that. I don't have a lot of experience, but I do know that if we ever get CC here in WI, it will not be my carry holster.

Double Naught Spy
June 23, 2006, 04:26 PM
Okay, first I have no idea how anyone could ever hold or examine a Fobus holster and think it must be super tough in some manner. As the picture shows, the skimpy plastic is held with three little rivets.

That does not mean it is poor quality. The Quality is fine for a $20 holster. Note that it was never advertised as a holster that could not be torn away. I can't believe anyone would ever think it would hold up to such abuse. That is more a comment on the people who perceive products than on the make of the holster.

With that in mind, Fobus holsters will work very well at being holsters. I know folks who have put them through thousands and draws and reholsters without a problem. They don't shrink when wet and no one worries about the finish.

Autospike may have a valid concern. Like him, I don't know the stats on bad guys discovering holsters with guns on non-cop good guys and then fighting with them. Of those stats, I don't know how many times holsters have failed. I am confident, however, that said event is hugely rare to the point of being unreported. That is one of those deals where it is so far down on the list of things that is likely to happen, only after other unlikely things have already happened that this would have to happen. It is sort of like getting struck by lightning while being successfully revived from being trapped under the ice for an hour after you fell through celebrating when you heard over the radio while ice fishing that you won the Powerball Lottery. Okay, well maybe not the powerball lottery and you don't have to be ice fishing.

Do I like Fobus? Not really, but I own both left and right handed fobus holsters. I used the right for normal carry when doing activities that might otherwise be damaging to a holster and the left for left-handed training. Me, I prefer leather holsters and Milt Sparks is my brand of preference. Even so, Fobus has its place.

Wayne D
June 23, 2006, 05:30 PM
I agree with DNS; they're not bad for $20 and they have their place. I would even carry daily with one. You just need to be aware of their limitations.

WeedWhacker
June 23, 2006, 07:38 PM
I suppose it's just that my concerns and my perception of the world doesn't match with a lot of other folks.
If it is a problem that you do consider valid, then by all means, look at some of the "duty cop" rigs - thick sewn leather which has belt loops for a sturdy belt, with heavy-duty retention straps, etc. In effect, something which *would* stand up to a literal 200-pound monkey swinging off it. ;)

My concerns, as Kevin Quinlan pointed out, though, point to myself as the weak link in the chain. If someone both knows I own firearms and wants to do me, specifically, harm, I'm pretty much screwed. I'm not allowed, by law, to carry everywhere I need to go (thanks, law!), and if someone just camps outside my front door around the time I usually leave to go to one of those firearms verbotin! places, well, maybe I could dive back inside and grab a weapon, but I doubt it.

Personally, I keep concealed things concealed, and try not to give folks cause to hate me. :) An armed society is a polite society, etc.?

Ohen Cepel
June 27, 2006, 10:38 PM
While carrying my M9 in an issues Bianchi holster I entered a doorway too close to the wall. The M9 hit the wall and ripped the holster clean off my web-belt. If it wasn't for the lanyard it would have rolled down the street.

I'm not bashing Bianchi (and I like Fobus also). However, it's a holster, not a rappel line.

I've also snapped clips off my Alessi IWB holster twice getting into cars. I still carry the same holster since they have always been good enough to repair it for me (they're my favorite holster company currently).

They are not meant to take but so much abuse. If you're a LEO then I would carry as solid as one can get. However, it's not really a concern for me. I just need to be more graceful and stop smacking my hip into things:cool:

carpettbaggerr
June 28, 2006, 08:34 PM
Like him, I don't know the stats on bad guys discovering holsters with guns on non-cop good guys and then fighting with them.I think you've got it backwards. You'll get in a fight, then the bad guy finds you've got a gun while you're scuffling with him.

How often does this happen? I don't know, but I'd rather have a more secure holster if it does. Anybody here never been in a fistfight?

spending extra money on a good holster is going to divert money away from things that are more likely to increase my lifespan and health. It's better to spend my money and energy on good boots, a safe car, and regular doctor visits.Well, you're talking about a difference of less than $100. Probably closer to $50. For a quality holster, which can't be ripped off your belt with one hand, I'd call that cheap insurance.

WeedWhacker
June 28, 2006, 09:31 PM
Anybody here never been in a fistfight?
While packing? I hope the heck not!

JERRY
June 28, 2006, 09:42 PM
i have. it was while in uniform. and a bad guy is going to pull on that thing in every direction, first up, then backwards, then up, then down and then twist, then down........some times its because he was falling though;) ;)

you will get a major pucker factor when it happens.....


i have a fobus ankle rig for my airweight. it has held up pretty good so far with running...it even got snagged on a fense, actually the guns grip got snagged and it pulled the holster around about 90 degrees on my leg. still intact to this day.

DMK
June 28, 2006, 09:53 PM
He pushed it down to rip the plastic at the rivets. An IWB holster would solve that problem. Personally, I prefer leather holsters.

As far as getting into a close in fight, that's actually one of my worst fears. Way before I carried, I actually had some gorilla walk up to me and punch me in the face just for looking at him. The guy had a serious anger problem, was already ticked off at something else, was huge and fast. Luckily, the situation didn't end up going any further. My point being, you can't pull a gun on some unstable individual just for suddenly getting into your personal space. And once they are that close, you could very easily end up in an unexpected fight for control of your weapon if they feel you have one. Yea, yea, I know, avoid him if you can (and definately keep your distance from drunk people), but that's not always possible in a crowd.

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