How far can a sniper hit a rocket on ground?


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BigFatKen
June 24, 2006, 11:41 AM
I am wondering if the military has a rifle bigger than a .50 BMG. It could be a crew weapon that five men haul into N Korea and assemble into a 400 pound weapon that could hit a rocket just as it takes off. Lag time would be important. A hit in the lower part would cause a blowup when the fuel burns to the hole and it would appear to be just like another new design failure.

How far could a .50 BMG hit a 3' x 20' target?

If this is too sensitive, please remove. However, if I can think of this, the N Koreans likely will too.

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BARRETT
June 24, 2006, 11:47 AM
http://www.biggerhammer.net/barrett/video/

Henry Bowman
June 24, 2006, 11:48 AM
No offense, Ken, but this sounds like a plan that would only work in Sarah Brady's fantasy world. :scrutiny:

BigFatKen
June 24, 2006, 11:57 AM
It appears that a .50 has a Maximum Range of 7400 Meters

Armor Piercing, M2 7400 meters - 2930 fps

I did not mean a flying rocket. Just one sitting there. The bullet would hit just as rocket engines have fired, excess fuel is burning off and liftoff has not yet occured.

the naked prophet
June 24, 2006, 12:05 PM
One of NASA's rockets exploded at launch, and one of the theories was that a sniper (or a stray bullet) hit one of the booster rockets. The booster rockets are all those little rockets strapped onto the side near the bottom. The case is made of carbon fiber, which has good tensile strength to hold the expanding gases inside the rocket, but are so brittle that bumping them could cause a crack that would result in an explosion. They actually have detailed handling protocols detailing the maximum angle of incline that it can rest on.

If you could get close enough, you could shoot it down with a BB gun, hours before it took off. It would for all purposes appear to be a rocket case failure. Of course, that would only work if they used the carbon fiber rocket bodies. A .308 would probably work for most rocket bodies. A .50 BMG would be overkill, but effective. It would work very well, especially if you could get close enough that the sound of the shot would be covered up by the rocket noise.

BARRETT
June 24, 2006, 12:15 PM
24278.22 feet= how many MILES.........
no .308 is going that far do not :fire: me please just keep on talking about the .50

DougW
June 24, 2006, 12:21 PM
Sounds kinda like a suicide mission to me.

Just shoot the thing down after it enters international waters. I am tired of screwing around with that 6th world tin horn.

BigFatKen
June 24, 2006, 12:27 PM
Hopefully our Navy patrols for many miles out from the Cape when the rockets go off. I susggested a .50 or bigger to get more range. It appears the .50 travels 2x as far as a .308 with same fps. Any enemy would have to patrol pi*r^2 as far. OR simply 4 times as much area to patrol.

A small fleet of ten foot subs could be deployed with a gun and each fire as a NASA rocket takes off. I saw an aircraft for ~$20,000 that flies itself lile a Predator airplane. Any enemy of ours might fly these from a "wetlands" in FL.

Of course, they would have to make the daunting task of sneaking across our heavily fortified southern border or boating in from the Glufstream with the hundreds of other boats that come back from fishing each day.

BIGDADDYLONGSTROKE
June 24, 2006, 12:29 PM
I saw we just take out N. Korea:)

4v50 Gary
June 24, 2006, 12:31 PM
I say we sign a treaty with the Workers' Paradise (China) and trade them North Korea for Taiwan. Let Commies kill Commies. We can't possibly lose.:p

American_Pit_Bull
June 24, 2006, 12:32 PM
Barrett's XM109 would be a fun choice.

BigFatKen
June 24, 2006, 12:45 PM
Sounds kinda like a suicide mission to me.

What if the crew is Korean-Americans, fluent in the dialect of the area with a detailed plan for an evac?

About our rockets, there are plenty of suicide volunteers in the Middle East.

On a lighter note, and speaking of dialects, when I first visited the Tuskegee, AL Veteran's hospital, I had an oral questionaire. The nurse asked me a number of questions. Most I figured out until she ask me "do you feel suuidede? After asking her to repeat her question four times I replied back "oh, are you asking me if I ever feel suicidal?" She said yes. I am still on my way to speaking Southernese. If I cross the Cossa River to the west side, the drawl gets worse. A person has to adjust.

wheelgunslinger
June 24, 2006, 12:49 PM
Doesn't the Vulcan weapon system do this very thing to sky rockets in flight?

Hoppy590
June 24, 2006, 12:53 PM
I say we sign a treaty with the Workers' Paradise (China) and trade them North Korea for Taiwan. Let Commies kill Commies. We can't possibly lose.

haha i had that same idea for Iraq. we make a deal with china, we get 1/2 the oil. they get the other 1/2. we started the war and took at saddam. now they have to end the insurgency. that will show the damn insurgents. put them up agains an equaly finatical and ruthless enemy, numbering in the BILLIONS ( 1.6 now right?) with WAY more support material and the political "go F*** yourself" attitude

50 Shooter
June 24, 2006, 12:55 PM
This target is 36" and at 2000 yards.

http://www.daplane.com/50bmg/ds2006/spring/dss06_2ktgt72.jpg


Hatchcock hit a VC at 2500 yards in Viet Nam and the Canadians made their hit at 2340 meters in Afghanistan. So, if you're looking to take out a scud missle or the likes, you can use this as a guideline.

YellowLab
June 24, 2006, 01:03 PM
That pic is nice, but it will all depend on the magnicifaction of the scope.

I can make the missile as big as I want with the x factor in optics.

BigFatKen
June 24, 2006, 01:10 PM
This target is 36" and at 2000 yards.
Are you saying it would be as easy as hitting the moon, from space, as in your pic?

rangerruck
June 24, 2006, 01:40 PM
that distance from above is about 4.5 miles.

50 Shooter
June 24, 2006, 02:39 PM
The picture I posted is a target that we have set up at 2000 yards, it was taken looking through the scope. So yes, it wouldn't be a problem hitting the moon with a .50 BMG.:neener:

I shot a satellite down once by accident while trying to hit the moon, found out it was the Cryosat. Russians tried to play it off as an accident but I know the true story.:p

rustymaggot
June 24, 2006, 02:47 PM
having a uncle who works for seti, i happen to remember him talking about how the moon is 30 moa.

Chawbaccer
June 24, 2006, 02:51 PM
The anti-50's can blow ariplane out of the sky so hitting a rocket on the ground seems like it would be a piece of cake.

50 Shooter
June 24, 2006, 03:11 PM
I think they replaced the quad .50 with something better but could you imagine the enemies eyes when he saw this?:what:

http://www.100thww2.org/support/898/898m51.html

BigFatKen
June 24, 2006, 03:12 PM
The anti-50's can blow ariplane out of the sky so hitting a rocket on the ground seems like it would be a piece of cake.

Of course, my real question, which I may not have made clear is:

FROM HOW FAR?

k_semler
June 24, 2006, 03:17 PM
7.4 kilometers = 4.59814682 miles :eek: :what: That's a long way!

BigFatKen
June 24, 2006, 03:22 PM
Great link to 1944 quad fifty. I was interested in this:

M51 Multiple .50-Caliber Machine Gun (“Quad Fifty”)
"Every gun section in the 898th was equipped with one quadruple mount .50-caliber MG. These truck-drawn, trailer-mounted guns were capable of pouring a deadly hail of lead at low-flying aircraft. They were also devastating against ground targets, although as an automatic weapon over 11mm in caliber, by the international conventions then in force, this weapon was only to be so employed “in self defense.”

I had never heard of this rule. So, in Saving Private Ryan, the Germans were in violation by using the little single barrel 20mm against personnel in attack? or was the 20mm a semi-auto?

Lupinus
June 24, 2006, 04:18 PM
and we would do that why?

cruise missles have better range and are more likely to stop their missle with a hit then a bullet.

BIGDADDYLONGSTROKE
June 24, 2006, 04:29 PM
Lets just will the missile out of the sky. Like Gene in X-MEN.:p

Kharn
June 24, 2006, 05:04 PM
BigFatKen:
Urban legend, anything goes when it comes to caliber.

Kharn

BigFatKen
June 24, 2006, 05:26 PM
and we would do that why?

It creates "plausible denialibilty". We did not do it. If the Korean-American team are captured, then it would be a problem. We might have to say they are disidents or something.

mcosman
June 24, 2006, 07:05 PM
2500 yards is about the maximum effective range on the fifty in the hands of a Human (as opposed to a SERVO Gantry) As a bmg owner I can tell you that all blunderbuss and machismo aside, there is only about a dozen guys in the US that could make that shot. No offense to anyone out there.

Carbon fiber is stronger than you might think. No you cannot take out a rocket with a BB gun point blank. This I know a thing or two about (building an all Carbon aircraft) I have also worked on tooling development for both the Pac-3(patriot) and the Taurus payload capsule.

Cruis missile all the way. More $$ but... safer for our guys, more accurate, faster deployment.

profshadow
June 24, 2006, 07:19 PM
Actually, it isn't the rocket that's the problem...it is Kim Jong-il

So the trick would be simpler if we just were able to "remove the guidance chip and reset the destination" (to swipe a common movie plot!)

Chupacabra
June 24, 2006, 07:27 PM
Why use a sniper team when you can use on of THESE? (http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/)

:evil:

I bet Boeing has put that system on the fast track.

profshadow
June 24, 2006, 07:33 PM
Nice Chupa! I'd take one of those flying support any day!

Kentak
June 24, 2006, 08:01 PM
We'll probably be seeing that in Mission Impossible 4.

Firethorn
June 24, 2006, 08:03 PM
Profshadow, the only problem with that plane is that it still has only like 30 seconds of burn. It's good for shooting down missiles, but the laser would have a hard time killing one human.

Lucky
June 24, 2006, 08:12 PM
If you were close enough to shoot the missile, wouldn't the explosion you caused kill you?

Serendipity
June 24, 2006, 08:32 PM
Surely, some of these responses are meant to be jokes?? Surely nobody here really believes that a Navy boat is going to shoot down a missile with bullets of any kind?

Cruise missile is the logical choice. Why have deniability? Just tell Kim that we blew up his rocket. What's he going to do about it? Then tell him that we'll blow up every other rocket that he tries to launch.

profshadow
June 24, 2006, 08:33 PM
Well, perhaps I could just use it as a nice sighting light?

50 Shooter
June 24, 2006, 08:36 PM
That's the point of this, you want to be far enough away so that A) You can escape B) You won't be part of the explosion C) Get to play 007 another day.;)

Here's the round of choice for all you would be SCUD hunters out there. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/mk211.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211_Mod_0

the naked prophet
June 24, 2006, 08:54 PM
Carbon fiber is stronger than you might think. No you cannot take out a rocket with a BB gun point blank. This I know a thing or two about (building an all Carbon aircraft) I have also worked on tooling development for both the Pac-3(patriot) and the Taurus payload capsule.

I worked a stint at NASA in Huntsville (Marshall SFC) as an independent contractor analyzing rocket failures. I spent most of my time on the STS-107 (Columbia) disaster, but I also analyzed other (mostly launch) failures as case studies. I don't remember the name, but one launch used a set of six booster rockets, which had carbon fiber bodies, around the bottom. One of them had a crack, which caused an explosion. The question was, was this crack the result of a manufacturing defect, a handling accident, or a malicious attack of some sort? The problem is that in order to make them as light as possible, the carbon fiber is only strong enough to contain the pressure generated by the burning fuel - even a moderately powerful BB gun (at close range) would be powerful enough to break a few fibers of the thin material. Those few fibers would be enough to weaken the body of the rocket enough to cause a breach.

The idea is that with a sniper, they don't know that we destroyed their missile. They might have a design problem, a manufacturing problem, a sabeteur, or any of a hundred other things that will take major resources to investigate.

Fred Fuller
June 24, 2006, 09:28 PM
There were sniper teams hunting Scuds with .50s in the first sandbox war. Since then even larger calibers have been developed for use as anti-materiel rifles, intended to destroy hardware from a distance. The idea of taking out a missile with a rifle is not at all far fetched.

lpl/nc
================================

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-materiel_rifle

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=313

http://www.special-operations-technology.com/print_article.cfm?DocID=673

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn56-e.htm

and so on...

mp510
June 24, 2006, 10:05 PM
For all practical intents and pruposes, it would be suicide to South Korea if that sort of mission ever were executed. Even moreso if it was determined to be launched by American forces, by capturing some dead or alive Americans, recovering American ordinance, or what ever else could anger Kim Jong Il.
It is estimated that there is 3,000 conventional missles already aimed opn Seoul. They would be hitting within minutes. When planning this sort of mission, it is cursory to take negative repercussions into account. Getting GI's into North Korea undetected would be difficult enough as it is. It is a known fact that they keep scout and snipers near the DMZ, because GI's have sporadic engagement with them, or so the news reports.

Owen
June 24, 2006, 10:18 PM
bah, ignore em

Every time NK feels neglected they bluster.

IF they have a decent rocket, the CIA wants it launched, so they can figure out how far along the NK's are.

PvtPyle
June 26, 2006, 12:08 AM
I hit a 18x39" iron maiden this weekend at 833m with a 308. The 50 is not as accurate in the semi version as it is in the bolt gun. Lots of facotry depend on the shot, not just the shooters ability. What is the tempature, humidity, winds, elevation above sea level, what round is it, is there an incline or a declination angle?

This is like asking how do you make a cheeseburger.

Diamondback6
June 26, 2006, 12:32 AM
Re the Boeing YAL-1A Airborne Laser, the first bird's laser completed ground trials in December and is in final mount to the aircraf IIRC--last news-update was January, it's like they're trying to make ABL a quasi-black-op. If I was DoD, I'd put a rush on it and send the bird out to Narita for "live-fire trials in a real-world environment".

BigFatKen
June 26, 2006, 07:59 AM
There were sniper teams hunting Scuds with .50s in the first sandbox war. Since then even larger calibers have been developed for use as anti-materiel rifles, intended to destroy hardware from a distance. The idea of taking out a missile with a rifle is not at all far fetched.


These links above were just what I was looking for.

And the whole point of the post was about guns and ant- materiel ordinance. This will come up again. Maybe another Country.

I'm sure there is enough USSR stuff that could be cobbled together to make a remote controlled device. The modern computer boards, aiming stuff would have dedundant self destruct devices.

No man to catch, no fingerprints, if done right.

Zak Smith
June 26, 2006, 04:01 PM
The resource you want is called The Complete .50 Caliber Sniper Course: Hard-Target Interdiction by Dean Michaelis [2000].

I also would put the outer limit of range at 2400 yards, plus or minus 300 depending on environmental conditions. With good ammunition and 50BMG rifle, hitting a vehicle at 1 mile is not all that hard.

Fred Fuller
June 26, 2006, 05:32 PM
Dean knows his stuff, he used to teach on the SOTIC committee at USAJFKSWCS when I was a useless civilian elsewhere in SWC. Last I heard from him he was doing field testing, working out the details on the .408 Cheytac round.

See his page at http://www.snipingoperationsexecutive.org/

lpl/nc

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