Does Anyone have a pistol-caliber carbine as their main or a primary shtf weapon?


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50caliber123
June 24, 2006, 11:37 PM
several advantages: Ammo is cheaper, easier on recoil, a good carbine is very affordable. Good for cqb, not so good for distance shots though.

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beerslurpy
June 24, 2006, 11:43 PM
There is pistol ammo cheaper than 7.62x39? I am building a 45 ACP AR15 at the moment and I wish this were true. But doing this project has given me other perspectives as well. After much sober deliberation, I have determined that the only advantage of pistol caliber rifles over intermediate cartriedge rifles is that they can be suppressed.

Compare pistol cartridges (9mm, 45acp) to intermediate carts (223, 7.62x39) from otherwise identical guns with identical barrel lengths.
stopping power: rifles
range: rifles
accuracy: rifles
penetration of armor: rifles
cost of ammo: tie
weight of ammo: tie (yes really)
magazine capacity: tie for a given size
suppressed use: pistol, if subsonic

esldude
June 24, 2006, 11:49 PM
Yeah, have a couple of 9mm carbines. If you have to have women or teenagers use one, you find they take to them much better than full rifles. Less recoil, and noise, yet the advantages of accuracy in close to medium range. Makes them unintimidating.

Of course otherwise all the same advantages. Quick, rapid follow up shots. Easy to carry large amounts of ammo. And cheaper than most centerfire.

browningguy
June 25, 2006, 12:08 AM
Well to answer the question, no. But I do have a Sub2000 in 9mm with the G19 mag well and 4x30 rd. mags. I wouldn't feel too bad if I new I would only use it at close range (out to 50 yards), but much prefer the SU16 in .223 past that.

Just_a_dude_with_a_gun
June 25, 2006, 12:09 AM
Yes, I do. It's good, and bad for seperate reasons.....

I live in an urban area, 1 mile from NYC, and I get a lot of practive with my Ruger PC4, as My P239 shares that caliber. There just isn't anyhere to use
a true rifle round here, so I'm very familiar with that gun, that round, and the limitations.

The bad part is that my urban setting dictates that I'm more likely to need much gun as possible than a backwoods guy who lives a mile from the nearest neighbor.

I go to my roof, and within a stone's throw see a housing project full of illegally armed felons.

pdowg881
June 25, 2006, 07:58 PM
arent suppressors illegal

444
June 25, 2006, 08:19 PM
"I have determined that the only advantage of pistol caliber rifles over intermediate cartriedge rifles is that they can be suppressed. "

Why can't intermediate cartridge rifles be suppressed also ?

Mannlicher
June 25, 2006, 08:33 PM
other than my .44 Mag and .357 Mag lever guns, I see zero use for pistol caliber carbines. I feel I am much better served with an AR15 or Mini-14.

beerslurpy
June 25, 2006, 08:38 PM
arent suppressors illegal
Where you live, maybe. Not in America though.

Why can't intermediate cartridge rifles be suppressed also ?

Well you can put wheels on house, but that doesnt mean it will drive anywhere.

Intermediate rifle cartridges suffer from:
High bullet flight noise. They are supersonic, they make 135-140 db the instant a bullet leaves the barrel. That noise doesnt trace back to the shooter, fortunately, it follows the bullet. But it is noticeable that someone is shooting a rifle, if this is a concern for you. Hearing "crack crack crack" would get my attention, as well as the attention of any cop or NG in earshot of the bullet's path.
High report noise. This is addressed by the suppressor.
High gas system noise. The suppressor increases backpressure. For all guns this increases fouling but also noise if the gas system vents to atmosphere. This is like having a second 130-140db report that the suppressor doesnt affect. AR doesnt have this problem, but gets extra fouling and heat problems when suppressed. If your gun is prone to the "occaisional jam" it will become prone to a lot more of them when suppressed.
fairly high action cycling noise. Hammer fired semiauto = 120+ db of noise. I think that the striker fired guns get down to maybe low 110s for action noise, but this will only be relevant on a subsonic gun with no other noise.

Using subsonic pistol cartridges and blowback operation gets rid of bullet flight noise and gas system noise. Using a bolt action or a padded buffer and using a striker fired system can partially eliminate action noise as well. A mammoth suppressor brings overall barrel length up to 16 inches and gets rid of the report. Not only will no one know you are shooting, but whatever you are shooting at will be largely oblivious unless a bullet strikes near them.

Here is a chart of bullet noise to velocity. Above supersonic = loud.
http://guns.connect.fi/rs/bulnoise.GIF

Dave Markowitz
June 25, 2006, 08:54 PM
A bit of anecdotal evidence ...

A couple weeks ago I had the opportunity to observe a suppressed Savage bolt gun in .308 being shot with full power loads. I took and earplug out to listen, and it sounded like a HV .22 LR from a rifle. I was VERY impressed. If that degree of suppression can be achieved with full power .308, then the results on a 7.62x39 would be potentially even better.

444
June 25, 2006, 09:00 PM
Huh.
I own an AAC M4-2000 suppressor for the AR15.
I also own a suppressed upper in 9mm (LRM M-169)

I think the suppressed .223 is infinitely better in every way, especially for a "SHTF" rifle.
Firing the rifle with full power ammo, the report is about like a .22 LR rifle.
Firing the rifle with subsonic ammo (77 grain SMK) gives you something that fires a bullet that is twice as heavy as a .22 LR and a report that is far less than a .22 LR. These subsonic rounds can be used for taking small game or for close shots requiring the absolute minimal report. Various soldiers and agents have carried suppressed .22 handguns for years. Here, you can have about the same noise level with a bullet twice as heavy. In fact, the bullet itself (77 grain SMK) is longer overall that a LOADED .22 LR round.

My .223 suppressor is probably the most impressive suppressor I own.

The 9mm on the other hand is fun, but that is about it.
Limited range. Minimal power. Not all that quiet.

beerslurpy
June 25, 2006, 09:25 PM
Dave, read my post above yours. Gas system noise is a huge problem on the AK.

Try using subsonic ammo for the 9mm. A lot of people complain that their cans suck because they are using regular supersonic ammo. Edit, I looked at LRMs site, 129 db is not very impressive for a handgun suppressor. I'll see if there were tested by silencertests.com. edit2: I looked and they did all their testing with full power supersonic loads.

AAC is awesome, I would like to get a 762SD from them when I have finished my 45 upper project.

50caliber123
June 25, 2006, 09:54 PM
I love my Hi-Point 9mm carbine. It's truly great, only drawback is the magazine capacity (10rds). I zeroed and learned how to shoot it in about an hour at the range, and is accurate at 50 yards. If I need more than 10rds, I 'll resort to my MAK-90, as the S has definently hit the fan. Good loaner gun, and good quality ammunition, is not horribly expensive. I like the fact that it won't overpenetrate, it handles well and fills a niche in my shtf stock along with the MAK-90 and the .308 enfield Jungle carbine, giving me a perfect balance of close, medium, and long range.

Brian Williams
June 25, 2006, 10:07 PM
Not your typical pistol caliber carbine, but I use a Marlin 1894C in 357, It does what I need.

pdowg881
June 25, 2006, 10:10 PM
so why do i think suppressors are illegal? I could've sworn reading that multiple places including this forum. I remeber one guy complaining how they shouldn't be illegal becuase lawmakers think its so we can silently shoot people, but he just doesn't want to disturb neighbors.

http://www.mp5.net/info/sbsconr.htm. So machine guns are legal in NH. I'm am so damn confused now, everything I thought i knew about my states laws are blown to hell.:confused:

byf43
June 25, 2006, 10:13 PM
Not exactly PRIMARY, but, Marlin 1894S and/or Winchester 94 Trapper in .44 magnum pack a pretty decent whallop on the downrange end.

Sharpdogs
June 25, 2006, 10:16 PM
I have a couple of pistol caliber carbines. While not the best choice in SHTF setting I would not feel under armed with most of them. My environment is very urban not a lot of 100+ fields of fire. Besides I have a M1 Garand and a few SKS's to back them up. If I was stuck in the past disaster in New Orleans I would have felt sufficiently armed with either of Marlin Camp Carbines or lever actions, heck even my Hi-Point would have done fine. I would just want enough fire power to cover butt and get to a safer place. I would not want to engage any armed gangs even with a M60.

telomerase
June 25, 2006, 10:18 PM
so why do i think suppressors are illegal?

There is a $200 Federal tax on them, and you have to go on yet another list. There may also be some state laws, I'm sure someone will jump in here with a link.

But you're already on so many lists anyway, what difference could one more make?

Roadwild17
June 25, 2006, 10:20 PM
I would use a good carbine over an equal quality handgun any day, but a rifle, well "rifles are rifles, pistols are pistols" - box of truth.

beerslurpy
June 25, 2006, 11:01 PM
Telomerase, it may be some ironic consolation to know that the NFA registry is so poorly maintained that many people who own NFA weapons are not in the registry at all, or are simply stored so incorrectly that their data can never be retreived. This is why it is such a good idea to retain the tax stamps for your toys.

444
June 25, 2006, 11:13 PM
"Try using subsonic ammo for the 9mm."

The LRM M169 has a gas bleed off system that allows you to shoot cheap WalMart 115 grain ammo and it will be subsonic.
I also have a good subsonic 9mm load that I use with my AAC Evolution 9 handgun suppressor using a 147 grain bullet and Power Pistol powder. It is VERY quiet, it averages right at 1000 fps (10 shot average).

"I looked at LRMs site, 129 db is not very impressive for a handgun suppressor."
It isn't a handgun suppressor. It is an integrally suppressed 9mm AR15 upper: http://www.lrmfirearms.com/suppressors/m169.html

beerslurpy
June 25, 2006, 11:28 PM
Yeah, I found the page earlier. Unimpressive for a handgun suppressor is even less impressive for a rifle suppressor that doesnt have the same weight or size restrictions.

I mean, where is the extra 9 db of noise coming from?
It cant be bullet noise if the rounds are truly subsonic.
It cant be action noise, because action noise should be only 120 db or so.
It cant be gas action bleedoff because 9mm ARs are blowback operated.
So it must be gun report noise, which means the suppressor isnt doing its job.

Is there a flaw in my reasoning here?

444
June 25, 2006, 11:40 PM
I don't know.
I can tell you a couple things though:
Before I bought this suppressor, I read all kinds of posts about it on forums like AR15.com and several on silencertests.com.
Everyone raved about it.

I mentioned I also have an AAC handgun suppressor.
IMO the handgun suppressor is quieter than the AR15 upper.

The AR15/9mm upper's suppressor is far bigger than my handgun can.

So, I would have to agree with you. It doesn't seem to me that the suppressor is all that effective. It is OK, but not great.

All that being said, the LRM M169 is one of the funnest guns I have ever owned. I really enjoy the crap out of it. Ok, the suppressor isn't the absolute ultimate. It is still pretty good.
A buddy of mine has a DeLeisle carbine. It is FAR more quiet than my 9mm upper.
For a rough benchmark, that DeLeisle (shooting .45 ACP 230 grain ball) is about as loud as my AR15/M4-2000 firing 77 grain subsonic. Both are nearly silent. Both are more quiet than my .22 suppressors. For that matter, I think my Evo-9 is more quiet than my .22 suppressors.

beerslurpy
June 25, 2006, 11:52 PM
Awesome, I hear nothing but good stuff about AAC or their cans. I cant wait for my 45 upper to arrive so I can send it off to SRT.

roscoe
June 26, 2006, 03:30 AM
Winchester Trapper in .45 Colt. 9 rounds and big holes.

Fosbery
June 26, 2006, 05:36 AM
Marlin 1894 .375 magnum. Faster shooting and more handy than a bolt action rifle and can be reloaded individually. I would use a rifle, but semi-autos are illegal here (except for .22 LRs).

aaronrkelly
June 26, 2006, 06:03 AM
I have a HiPoint 9mm carbine stashed just inside the closet with a red dot scope on it for the wife.....

Crosshair
June 26, 2006, 05:26 PM
As a defensive weapon, the pistol carbines are good bang for the buck. A person armed with one is lethal out to 100-125 yards and a threat well beyond that. You are not guarding Ft. Knox. If you are simply moving, because of a natural disaster or such, to a safer place, having a gun like a pistol caliber cabine will make criminals leave you alone and look for better targets. Sure it would be great to have everyone armed with 308 FAL rifles, but that is not going to happen. You could take the money spent on a good AR carbine and arm an entire family with Hi-Point carbines, ammo, and spare magazines.

JesseL
June 26, 2006, 06:11 PM
If you were to actually need to use your weapon in a SHTF sitation, I suspect it wouldn't be unlikely for you to be engaging target wearing soft body armor. To penetrate soft body armor usually requires at least an intermediate rifle cartridge.

chopinbloc
June 26, 2006, 06:33 PM
i had an opportunity to fire an m-4 with a knight's armament corp. suppressor mounted and i was VERY impressed. we were using plain old lake city m855 ammunition and the sound was just a bit louder than a normal .22lr from a rifle. the recoil and muzzle rise was also significantly reduced. it was daylight so i didn't have a chance to see how much it reduced muzzle flash but i see no reason that it wouldn't be on par with other suppressors. during the same session we were able to carry on a normal conversation about ten to fifteen feet away from the person firing the weapon while he dumped several magazines on three shot burst. the only thing i can compare it to was a walther p22 with an aac pilot that i had a chance to shoot a couple weeks ago. obviously the 5.56mm was louder but it's a completely different animal.

as for the op, had a hi-point 9mm carbine a couple years ago and it was a very solid firearm. would not feel underarmed using it as a home defense gun. i would feel a little undergunned using it for a NOLA/riot/massive terrorist attack type situation.

esldude
June 26, 2006, 09:49 PM
In isolation a rifle might be better. But like someone mentioned, for one expensive full battle rifle, you can arm a small family with carbines. Anyone of about any age able to walk can use one without intimidation. A whole family of 4 with them is not too shabby. Versus just Dad with FAL or Garand or AK, I believe the carbine is a better option.

In WWII, Russian cities fielded whole units with a small short carbine firing a .30 caliber pistol bullet with similar power to a 9mm. Since these could be produced quickly, cheaply and in great numbers it filled the bill. Also since it was very unintimidating to shoot, anyone walking in the city could be given one. Since many were women, then it made good sense. Deployed in large numbers, these were a big part of holding on and eventually pushing out the German armies. Armies that over-ran Poland and France in short order.

That is how I see a pistol caliber carbine. Something that when the SHTF, anyone mobile can manage to use to some effectiveness. With very little training. Much less practice, knowledge etc is needed to hit effectively within 50 yards with such a weapon than is the case with either a pistol or larger caliber battle rifles.

If dad can handle an FAL, and Mom a shotgun then even better, but let everyone else have hold of a carbine.


Our troops are even using the Russian version in Iraq.
http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/001913.html

pdowg881
June 26, 2006, 10:43 PM
Saorry I don't know how to quote yet, but whoever said its not much of a big deal to be put on a list for a supressor, good point. Just another of dozens of records that we all know are obniously being taken. On that note, you think buying ammo through a credit card or other non annonymous method puts you on a list or record? Sounds likely.

50caliber123
June 26, 2006, 10:53 PM
with the exception of online purchases, I try to pay cash for ammo. But for quality ammo, as in better than Wolf, you can get a 1000rds for around $100-$125 sometimes less.

patriot2980
September 27, 2006, 11:42 AM
I would feel fairly safe with my Hi-Point carbine in a SHTF situation, considering where I live. I live about 8 miles outside of a smaller city. Roughly around 20,000 people. If it was a SHTF situation on a apocolyptic scale,I would certainly want something with a little bit more bite to it. Maybe a Mini-14 or an all-out AR. Out here in the country we like to have something for any situation. Let's say for the heck of it, that a major disaster or a nation-crippling attack leaves the good citizens of of America at the mercy of half-starved crack heads, roving bands of thieves, and murder hungry looters, then you're going to need a little bit of everything. Some crazy dude wants to get in your house because he thinks youve got food, close quarters combat will probably apply. So a pistol caliber carbine would probably work fine.I seriously doubt the lunatics around my area would have access to body armor. I'm not saying that none would, but your run-of-the-mill sleazebag wont. I'm just saying, when you go to play golf, you don't take just one club, you take a whole set. You never know what's going to come up.

BrennanKG
September 27, 2006, 11:54 AM
My wife's primary longarm/SHTF weapon is her HK USC (it used to be mine :)).
She shoots it better and more easily than our rifles.
Plus I'm hoping to have the SBR/UMP work done on it in the not so distant future.


B.

Sry0fcr
September 27, 2006, 12:25 PM
I don't have on yet but I plan on getting one. In an urban SHTF scenario you're unlikely to have an unobstructed 400 yard sight picture. Also I don't think I'd need the range/barrier penetration of a rifle as I don't intend to engage anyone or anything beyond 150 yards. If a band of looters is 300 yards away behind cover I'm getting the F outta there while I've got time and space to get away! The name of the game is escape and evasion not seek and destroy. Besides 9mm is cheap, plentiful, and allows ammo commonality with my sidearm I'll just stock up on some hot loads to take advantage of the longer barrel of a carbine. which looks like it'll probably be an MP5 knockoff.

junyo
September 27, 2006, 12:37 PM
The biggest advantage of a pistol caliber carbine in a SHTF situation is commonality of ammo and mags, i.e. greatly simplified logistics. Grabbing a sidearm and a rifle generally means that while you are better armed, that status only exists while two complete weapons systems and ammo supplies are functional. Run out of .223, you've got a plastic club. Mags get damaged or crushed, ditto (at minimum your ability to sustain volume of fire is impacted). Problem with the gun that you can't immediately resolve, you've got a plastic club and X lbs. of (for you, at that point in time) useless .223 ammo.

With a pistol caliber carbine, you do give up range and power, but you gain redundancy (especially with matching mags, or a revolver/lever gun combo), which is critical in an emergency situation with uncertainty as to when/if you can refresh your supplies and equipment. All your guns fire the same ammo, so as long as you've got a single round, you're still in the fight. Mags get damaged or crushed; oh well, you can still use the ones from your sidearm. And since they're interchangeable, you can carry less. Instead of 6 or 7 for the rifle and another 5 or 6 for the sidearm, maybe you carry 8 total, and throw them down whichever pipe is appropriate for the situation. Problem with the gun that you can't immediately resolve, all you ammo still works in the other.

Short of open combat, a pistol caliber carbine will do most things a person expects from a defensive weapon. After all, the .30 Carbine is a glorified pistol cartridge, and did fine in close combat. It won't help you in a 500 yard gun battle, but honestly in a SHTF situation it's extremely unlikely that I'm justified in engaging a target at that distance, and if I'm taking shots from 500 yards I can take cover or run. But to each his own, I have both and while I'd hate to leave my rifles, if I need to go now, I'm grabbing the XD , folding up the Sub2K and tossing it in the bag with 1,000 rounds and all my mags; move fast, travel light. It's not the weapon, it's the warrior; it's not the tool, it's the tactic.

115grfmj
September 27, 2006, 12:45 PM
Marlin 1894c in .357. No reason for anything else. It's not like I'm gonna be taking on a determined fire team or anything:neener:

Manedwolf
September 27, 2006, 12:55 PM
I see one of the greatest advantages of the Sub 2000 is that it can fold down to 16", and be easily hidden.

And the authorities can't confiscate what they can't see.

I also don't see the point of suppressors. You're not doing covert ops, you're trying to drive off criminals. If they get scared by loud bangs, all the better.

geekWithA.45
September 27, 2006, 01:06 PM
My camp 45 has become my trunk gun, as it's the only one I care to travel with that also isn't problematic in the various jurisdictions I travel through.

I'd rather have a real rifle, though.

Lupinus
September 27, 2006, 01:17 PM
Why can't intermediate cartridge rifles be suppressed also ?
You can but you will get a load crack since the bullet is traveling faster then the speed of sound. Just like a fighter jet gets a sonic boom a supersonic bullet gets a loud crack.

So the actual rifle you can surpress but you are still going to get the loud crack.

dfaugh
September 27, 2006, 01:41 PM
Not really my "primary" HD gun, but it has its points. I have large house, so I like to keep a gun within easy reach. In the back downstairs is the Mossberg Chotgun (probably the "true" primary weapon) , but in the front ahll clost is a Hi-point with +P+ Black Talons. Either should buy mr enough tim to get to some "serious" weaponry ( a couple SKSs upstairs, on a Yugo, and the otha an DKD-m that take AKA mags (I keep a couple loaded). Most likely the shotgun orHi-point eill stop thr threat,but the others are serious s**t if I really need it.

Crosshair
September 27, 2006, 04:08 PM
I would have to say that a suppressor would be a good investment. When you are hunting you want to atract as little attention as possible. I would think a good crossbow would be nice as well.

MrAcheson
September 27, 2006, 04:20 PM
There may also be some state laws, I'm sure someone will jump in here with a link.Yup. In Delaware, silencers are regulated as destructive weapons and are therefore illegal to buy, sell, or possess according to Title 11, Chapter 5, subchapter VII, section 1444 of the Delaware Code. No full auto. No suppressors. No short-barreled shotguns. Short-barreled rifles look like they squeaked through though.

P99guy
September 27, 2006, 06:51 PM
About tax refund time coming up, I have decided a M4/2000 is a toy im getting, as we finally have a Sheriff in Tarrant county that will sign ATF form 1's and 4's ect with no antigun hangups. It will be dual use...FN PS90 SBR and on a RRA Entry Tactical AR15. Would love to get a Suppressed Ruger MKII or III , or a 10/22 after that.

BrennanKG
September 27, 2006, 07:07 PM
mmm...jealousy, P99Guy.

I am in the process of convincing the wife that we need a PS90 to eventually SBR and suppress. So the 5.56 and 5.7 can safely share suppressors? That's good to know.

:)

B.

P99guy
September 27, 2006, 10:31 PM
yes they are both .224 bullets...in fact you can handload M193 55gr bullets,
and 62gr SS109/M855 bullets in 5.7x28 cases for borderline subsonic loads
that would work quite well with suppressors. CMMG makes the 10.3 in P90 type barrel for the PS90 in 1/9 and 1/7 twist rates, 4150 steel. CMMG also makes a 1/2x28 adaptor that replaces the P90 Flash hider...Just screw on a M16 QD flash hider made for the M4/2000 and another on the AR and it goes right on either weapon in seconds.

the FN factory subsonic "Sb193" round is loaded with a 55grain bullet.

Here is a pic of my PS90, its green stock is at HDPS as we speak being dyed black, and if the timeline is true to form right now, I will have my tax stamp back for it in about the first week of Oct.

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6547/20060811021rl6.jpg

it will just like this PS90 SBR when done

http://www.likestuff.com/guns/pictures/10.3%20PS90%20PICS/small/PICT1863.JPG
CLICK FOR HIGH RES (http://www.likestuff.com/guns/pictures/10.3%20PS90%20PICS/large/PICT1863.JPG)

mutt
September 28, 2006, 07:37 PM
My lovely wife likes her Marlin '94 .357 lever , and I love my Rossi '92 .357. I think the round is very suitable for most needs. And they both can use .38 special if needed.
The .357 round does lots of damage even at a 100 yards,as has been my experence .
......................................MUTT

Spencer
September 28, 2006, 08:20 PM
I really think if I was going to use a long gun for shtf I would choose a shotgun. But thats just me. If I was going to use something that fired a handgun round I would probably just use a magnum revolver.

If you would get a shtf pistol caliber carbine though, make sure it fires a powerful cartridge, nothing like 9mm. 40S&W is alright, but I would prefer .357 magnum.

grimjaw
September 28, 2006, 08:56 PM
Only against the zombie horde . . .

smince
September 29, 2006, 09:03 AM
My Mechtech CCU is used in conjunction with my 1911's. Same ammo, mags, etc. But I also have an SKS and a few other rifles, too.

Boston T. Party
May 10, 2007, 12:03 PM
The .357/.44 mags lever action are viable house guns.
These calibers really come alive from a 16+" barrel.

___________
For those who consider the 5.7mm "too much"--

HK is coming out with a bullpup in 4.9mm,
Steyr will next year debut a new handgun in 2.4mm,
and Daewoo will, in 2009, offer a 0.0mm carbine (mag capacity is infinite).

Boston

http://www.javelinpress.com (Boston's books)
http://www.freestatewyoming.org (FSW website)
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php (FSW forum open to all)

DMK
May 10, 2007, 12:53 PM
several advantages: Ammo is cheaper, easier on recoil, a good carbine is very affordable. Good for cqb, not so good for distance shots though. I used to have a 9mm Marlin Camp Carbine for HD. It was a great little rifle. Accurate, reliable, compact. However, I considered the above points and sold it to buy an AR15.

Never looked back. The AR was just as compact, just as light, more accurate, has comparable recoil, better sights, more versatility, easier to maintain, flatter trajectory, better terminal ballistics, and has longer range. At the time, surplus 5.56 was cheap so I stocked up quite a bit. Ammo cost today would be the only drawback, but I also have a 22LR upper.

Now I have like a half dozen ARs and no pistol caliber guns. I might get a .357 lever action, just because they are cool though, not for any need.

DMK
May 10, 2007, 12:58 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=45570&d=1159531389
My Mechtech CCU is used in conjunction with my 1911's. Same ammo, mags, etc.
Hey Smince that CCU looks pretty cool. How did you adapt the AR stock to it?

Dr.Rob
May 10, 2007, 01:33 PM
.44 mag from a rifle is a whole lot different than a 9mm 'carbine'.

Then gain, there are few really good choices out there (for the price) for semi-auto pistol cal. carbines... that if you really want a lightweight 'rifle' a Kahr M1 carbine copy or a Mini-14/30 might be just as desireable, you get a lot more range, better penetration and reliable hi-capacity magazines.

Lone_Gunman
May 10, 2007, 02:05 PM
arent suppressors illegal

The original question was about a SHTF scenario. If it is a real SHTF scenario, such as Zombie Invasion, Nuclear Holocaust, etc, then there won't be anyone around to enforce those laws.

possum
May 10, 2007, 02:35 PM
several advantages: Ammo is cheaper, easier on recoil, a good carbine is very affordable. Good for cqb, not so good for distance shots though.

normally using a pistol caliber carbine is frowned upon for many reasons for a shtf type of situation.
1) they are approx the size of some rifle caliber carbines. and if you are gonna have something that size you might as well have a rifle.
2) a rifle is generally better to have if applicable in a situation, not only being a rifle but the rifle calibers.
3)there are gonna be better results with a rifle caliber carbine than with a pistol caliber.
4)yes the barrel is longer so there will be incresed velocity and ft lbs of energy delivered on target ie better terminal ballistics.
5)they are easier to shoot and making accurate shots compared to a handgun come much easier, but again, why hit them with a pistol caliber when you could have a .223/5.56 etc.

Pro's:
like you said ammo is cheaper and that is definetly a plus these days. they are great for plinking, just to have and such, and they are great for high volumes of trainning. learn the basics and do the drills and go through the high rd counts with the less expensive ammo and weapon, and then implimint what you learned with that to the other rifles that you would actually want to use in a shtf sittuation.

then there are people that believe that you should train how you fight. and suggest that you train with the weapon you are gonna use and not doing what i stated above, i am not in that group.

i am not trying to tell you not to get one because there are a few that i love and would love to own, but i wouldn't use it as my shtf gun especially as the primary and not even the secondary that is what my ar and 870 and ak are for, they are alot of fun though.

recoil, is not much of an issue with an ar either, some ak's are better in this department than others as well, the yugo underfolders are very soft shooters.

accuracy, you should be able to tag and get good hits on targets at 100yds and at 50yds all day long pretty rapidly, but again with a rifle you will be able to shoot out farther, and you will have better terminal ballistics once the rifle round hits the target than if you were using a pistol caliber.

btw any thing that you train with and are profecient with is better than everything else. no matter what it is. if you have little or no experience with it and no trainning.

my choice in shtf
1)ar/ak
2)pistol caliber carbine
3) handgun

perpster
May 10, 2007, 07:15 PM
Marlin 1894C and revolver. Versatile, effective and available/reloadable ammo. No black plastic to alarm the sheeple. Tested by time, tried and true.

Is it the best combo/ammo for all situations? No. But can it perform admirably in all but long range situations? Yes. And how often will you need to exceed the 100-150 yard effective range of the .357/.38 combo? Not often, and if you do you may have some explaining to do about how you felt threatened at that distance (assuming of course they are not armed with rifles). Do I have a MBR available for SHTF? Yes, but for all-around use I like the above combo.

PS: Not relatively heavy to carry the carbine, revolver and a good quantity of ammo, either.

smince
May 10, 2007, 07:43 PM
Hey Smince that CCU looks pretty cool. How did you adapt the AR stock to it?
I made a sleeve that fit over the receiver tube and overhung the back enough to screw the buffer tube to the sleeve. Then I attached the CAR stock in the normal fashion.

yokel
May 10, 2007, 07:50 PM
I can see how a 9x19mm carbine would be an obvious choice since it is the standard NATO and US round and also popular amongst civilian shooters, thus allowing one to supplement supply quantities with outside sources.

Perhaps it's high time for me to purchase a Ruger PC9...

Mannlicher
May 10, 2007, 07:57 PM
50Cal123several advantages: Ammo is cheaper, easier on recoil, a good carbine is very affordable. Good for cqb, not so good for distance shots though

I am not so sure that your points are correct. Ammo prices are usually less for milsurp .223, the .223 is certainly easier on recoil than a .44 or .357 Mag, and the suitability for CQB is questionable. I agree on the pistol caliber carbines being ineffective for distance shots.
The pistol caliber carbine rounds are for the most part, not as powerful as rifle cartridges, and offer no advantage that I can see over using an AK, AR, or 7.62 Nato platform.

guy sajer
May 10, 2007, 08:08 PM
Does Anyone have a pistol-caliber carbine as their main or a primary shtf weapon?
Yes :)
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y154/mitch61/SavageM11942.jpg

FMJMIKE
May 11, 2007, 12:43 AM
This M1 Carbine is my house gun. I would feel comfortable with it for SHTF. WW II was a real SHTF situation...............:D
http://wm17.inbox.com/thumbs/d_a8fd7_6ccf8f_oJ.jpg.thumb

Dr.Rob
May 11, 2007, 02:19 AM
hehe... Guy wins.

skinnyguy
May 11, 2007, 03:16 AM
Should be here next week. My Ruger PC9 with a Redfield 6x scope. Gonna go great with my Ruger P89. Shares the same mags, currently have 2 factory 15's and 2 aftermarket 30 rounders. Gonna get more.

When it gets here, and I get familiarized with it, I'll be a whole big bunch more comfortable. Within 2 blocks north and south of me, there's a donut shop, 7-11, bank, liquor store, pawn shop, hotel, 2 gas stations, and a police station (right between the 7-11 and donut shop). Pretty much a potential robbery-rich neighborhood. Plus there is increasing gang activity here, and my job puts me in contact with some of the gangers, and I've been known to P.O. them on occasion in relation to my job. Oh yeah, I have a 17-year old daughter with a boyfriend.

Yeah, I'll feel better.

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