[.45Ruger]

I carry a Springfield Mil-Spec Ultra Compact much of the time. The gun just doesn't seem to like to feed hollowpoints, I was thinking I have 3 options:
1. Carry Hardball, danger of overpenetration.
2. Get a gunsmith to go over the gun, expensive and no guarantee of results.
3. Use it towards trade on an XD subcompact I have been wanting.

The gun does feed hadball reliably so I was just wandering what the dangersof overpenetraion were. I think they would be minimal as the ,45 is a slower round and the three inch barrel doesn't give much help to velocity.

[George Hill]

You have some other options...

Switch to Cor-Bon PowerBall ammo or Federal EFMJ.

I had a Springfield "NIGHT .45" that didn't like most hollow points, but ran fine with 185 JHP. Try some of those of various types... different bullet types as well... Golden Sabers or Gold Dots or just plain old fashioned 185 JHPs.

Now, Springfield has great service... Give them a call and they will pay for shipping for yout to send your gun back. They will do you right... And your gun will run like a champ.

Now, you said your wanting to go to an XD.
You probably wont be contented until you do....

[Handy]

Not to be a pain, but:

If this thing isn't reliable with hollowpoints, is it really "reliable", and should you be carrying it.

The two most important criteria for a CCW gun are safety and reliability. If it doesn't like to feed bullets with holes, is it going to feed when dirty, or with a poor grip, or after being dropped? You can argue that maybe nothing will, but alot of guns will feed anything, and that seems like a better starting point.

[WonderNine]

I carry hardball 9mm.....

http://bis.midco.net/cotlod/1.jpg

[cratz2]

Handy, while a gun being 100% with all ammo choices is great, there are plenty of guns out there that are that feed ball ammo under pretty much any circumstances but won't feed many HPs.

I'd imagine there are more than two 1911s (not 1911A1s, but 1911s) that have feed thousands of rounds of ball, but would stumble on 185 Gr HPs or 200 Gr Gold Dots.

[stans]

While hardball may not be the top dog in "stopping power", if the gun jams on hollowpoints, then hardball is the way to go. 1911's can be made 100% reliable with hollowpoints, it is just that they were not originally designed for such ammo.

[lazhuward]

You have to carry a gun that's reliable.

How you do that is up to you. Whether you change the ammo or change the gun, it has to be reliable.

Does it boil down to: What do I like more, the gun or the ammo?

[Marko Kloos]

If the gun is reliable with hardball, and you don't want to spend money on a ramp & throat job, then carry it with hardball. Worked just fine for the military through a bunch of wars and eighty years or so.

I've toted a 1911 loaded with ball on occasion. A gun that can shoot eight .45 FMJs reliably beats a gun that jams on the second round of HP.

[Smoke]

If you are comfortable with reliability with FMJ ball ammo. THen by all means carry it. If time and money allows then I would seek the opinion of a competent smith.

Or save up and purchase another 1911 that will feed any ammo.

.45 FMJ is a perfectly good round. I'd rather have that than a smaller round in holowpoint.

(Flame suit ON)

[RON in PA]

They all fall to ball.

[coop57]

I am not comfortable with a carry gun that isn't reliable. That said I am less than confident about all the small sized >3.5 barell 1911s. This is a result of seeing and hearing of frequent ftf, stove pipes on these little guns. Aside form the reliability problem the issue of controlability is questionable. The recoil seem very extreme. Maybe I am just biased toward the reliability of the full size 1911.

[themic]

imo, with a .45, ball really ain't that bad of a thing. it'll still hurt like hell when you hit em, and it'll get through an arm or a shoulder and all 4 jean jackets if need be. you don't have to worry bout overpenetration like the 9 guys do.

ever see some gelatin tests out there showing hardball? actually, i can't find a picture now that i'm looking...

[DonGlock26]

I'd consider having a gunsmith do a throat job i.e. polishing the feed ramp. What hollow points are causiing problems? Some are more rounded than others. Try 230gr Golddots or Remington JHPs. Carrying ball ammo is acceptable to me, if that's the only way to keep it reliable. Or you could get a Glock G-36 or Sig245 and be done with it.

[Handy]

So a 9mm HP user has to worry about overpenetration, but a .45 Ball user doesn't?

Oh come on.



My thinking on the reliability issue is this:

We don't know why it won't feed HPs. It may be just like an old issue 1911, or it may be that the feed lip angle is bad. In any case, the pistol is relying heavily on the smooth juncture of feed ramp and bullet. So what happens if the feed ramp gets dirty, for instance?

I just think a gun that tends to chamber a wide variety of bullet shapes is going to fare much better when other circumstances make feeding difficult.

Carry whatever you want, but .45 Ball is not short for ".45 cannonball". Even a standard pressure 9mm is going to be more effective if it is an HP.

[Graystar]

I think it's pretty much established that the original 1911 barrel design simply won't feed hollow points well. It's because the feed ramp is not part of the barrel, as in later barrel designs. The hollow point bullet hangs up on the lip of the barrel as it leaves the ramp. I know that the Mil-Spec uses the original 1911 design so that must be the issue.

I'd say just forget about the hollow points for now. If it's like my Mil-Spec, it will feed ball all day without a hitch, and that's what's really important. If you're worried about overpentration then carry a lighter load. But really, how many stories do you hear of innocent bystanders getting hit by bullets from a self-defense shooting? The fact is, if some guy is trying to kill you, he's either in your house, or someplace deserted.

Ball ammo has proven itself on the street. You can't argue with success.

[Handy]

Ball ammo has proven itself on the street. You can't argue with success.

Where does stuff like this come from? Proven? How?!! Even LSWC have been completely abandoned by every police force in favor of HPs.


As far as overpenetration goes, it is not unusual to hear news stories of urban shootings that end up killing people in their houses. If you haven't heard stuff like that on the news, you don't live near a big city.

This is all part of the "know your backstop" issue. Unless you can guarantee that you will only be shooting in populated areas that have stone walls, you have a moral responsibilty to carry ammo that has the least practical likelyhood of going through people and structures.

[Graystar]

It comes from data on shootings. Hollow points are clearly better, but with ball ammo it's not like you're lobbing wet noodles at the guy.

I have heard of drive-by shootings and other criminal shootings where bystanders have been hit. However I haven't heard of an instance where a bystander was hit from someone shooting in self-defense. I'm not saying it can't or hasn't happened...I just haven't heard of one yet. If you have a link to a story like that I'd be interested in reading it.

[Handy]

I don't think the bullet knows why it was fired.



What "data" are you speaking of? Discredited Marshall/Sanow, or something else?

Got a link?

[Graystar]

I agree that the bullet doesn't know why it's been fired...but the shooter does. I don't think it's fair to compare gang members shooting up a neighborhood street, to a person defending themselves in an encounter in a deserted parking lot. But that's just my opinion.

The *historic* data from Sanow, yes, and other pieces of data found on the web at times.

Here's one person's opinion on the subject.

http://www.chucktaylorasaa.com/stoppingpower.html

Were I to "play the percentages," or base my opinion on a more narrow examination such as (for example) a review of the files of the law enforcement agencies with which I have been associated or draw from my own personal experiences alone, I could legitimately state that .45 ACP 230 gr. "hardball" fired from a M-1911 Colt auto, is 100% effective!

How? Simple -- in all of the departmental shootings in which it was used, it worked. And because in five of the seven pistol fights in which I have been a participant, I used a .45 with ball ammo -- and it worked. I won all five with my first shot, my opponent collapsing before I could fire again. Five center hits, five one-shot stops, five DOS (dead on the scene).

[Ian]

If you do go with hollowpoints, make sure that they will reliably expand on contact. If they don't open up, then they're no different from ball. With sure a short barrel, you'll probably need 185-grain bullets get good expansion.

I remember someone posted a link to a first-hand account of a gunshop employee shooting a man who took one of their 9mm ARs and was going to kill all the employees with it. The good guy had 230gr Hydrashoks in a short-barreled Glock (I don't remember exactly what length), and none of them expanded...

[themic]

Handy, what I meant was that, imho, a 9mm ball user has more of a concern of overpenetration than a 45 ball user.

[themic]

and, I personally have not heard of an innocent bystander being hit by a bullet that had already passed through another person, or a real wall (always been trailer-home wall, window, or drywall, all of which could be penetrated just as easily by a HP)

then again, I'm haven't paid that detailed attention to shootings for only bout the last couple of years. and of course news reports are anecdotal evidence by definition, and often incomplete.

[RandyB]

I'd use ball it that is all that shoots 100%. How about Remington JHP, they are supposed to feed better. Tuning up your gun would be my suggestion also, but you have to trust it 100%. Personally my Kimber shoots everything:)

[Andrew Wyatt]

my 1911 feeds empty cases.

when i carry it, i use hardball.



FMJ .45 ACP works well enough, is totally reliable and is inexpensive.


it'll do just fine untill you can get it to a smith.

[ElAlumno]

If you are going to use 230 gr. FMJ,. I think you are making a big mistake.

Based on the FBI tests, this round offered close to 40 inches of penetration on bare gelatin and close to 33 inches on "heavy clothing".

Argue overpenetration, energy not expended in target, or danger to bystanders. You could even argue the applicability of the FBI tests, but common sense IMO would dictate that this round be avoided.

Either get the gun "fixed" to feed JHP or get a different gun.

[Aikibiker]

On our dearly departed TFL their was a fellow that worked as an X-ray technician in South Africa. On his website were a variety of X-rays of gunshot wounds, all different calibers and bullet styles. A search on TFL might prove illuminating to the purposes of this discussion.

I believe the title of the thread was "GSW X-ray pics" or something to that effect.

[Boats]

Before going to the smith, I'd look at my mags. If it won't feed HPs with a mag that seats the round slightly higher into parallel with the chamber, like a Wilson Combat #47D, then I'd consider a feed ramp polish and throat job.

My Springer Champ has a ramped barrel and has fed every hollowpoint ever thrown into it. I know that ramped barrels are a source of some controversy in the 1911 community, but it has worked stellarly for me.

[surfinUSA]

I used to carry a series 70 commander. Nice gun but it would not feed all hollowpoints reliably even after the throat was polished. Hardball was never a problem, of course thats what the gun was designed for.

After trying diffferent loads I did find one that was reliable and stuck with it. Keep looking I'm sure you'll find one too. Good luck.

[Snowdog]

You don't have to worry bout overpenetration like the 9 guys do.

.45acp hardball is one of the worst deep-digging horrors there are. In ballistic gelatin, the closest simulated medium of human flesh, the .45acp 230gr FMJ penetrates 27"*... and that is insane.
This is only slightly bested (within an inch) by a 158gr .357mag SWC, a round notorious for penetration.

The 9mm 115gr FMJ penetrates 24" in the same medium, and there exists no 9mm JHP that exceeds this. *

Not to argue the merits of .45acp hardball for defense, it should never be said (or repeated, as the myth lives on) that the .45acp hardball poses no overpenetration hazard in relation to 9mm rounds.


* Handgun Stopping Power

[Doc]

all rounds, even magic bullets and HP MAY penetrate the target. That is good and well good. The more thru and thru holes, the faster the BG leaks vital fluids. Just FYI they shoot large dangerous game with bullets that are SUPPOSED to go thru.

Never forget rule three of firearms safety: ALWAYS BE CERTAIN OF YOUR TARGET AND BACKSTOP. Every bullet going downrange (even at the BG) has a lawyer attached. Hit your target and be certain of a solid backstop. You won't be forgiven if you are righteous in your effort of self defense and your magic bullet didn't expand, passed thru the target and struck an innocent bystander

Shoot ball. Shoot ball well. Only shoot when your life depends on it and you are certain of your target and backstop.

[Graystar]

Only shoot when your life depends on it and you are certain of your target and backstop.I don't think that's really realistic. What are you going to do, ask the BG to take a few steps over before shooting?

Better to deal with a lawsuit than having your loved ones deal with a funeral director.

Finally, I know of at least one case where the surviving partner of a two man team was charged with the murder of his partner. The partner was killed by the victim in self-defense. I know that at least several states have laws that will hold criminals responsible for *any* deaths that occur as a result of their criminal behavior.

[WESHOOT2]

Try the R-P JHP's.
Try different mags.
Try something.

IF YOU CAN'T GET NOTHIN' to work carry ball; better than rocks.

It's 2003. :banghead:

[sm]

I've carried FMJ, on purpose.

If all there was ,was FMJ -I could live with that. Since better loads available I'd get the gun throated to use JHP loading reliably.

In the old days I carried 'flying ashtrays' in a '73 Combat Commander, my extra mag was ball on purpose. It did this stock with no work required.

[ElAlumno]

FYI they shoot large dangerous game with bullets that are SUPPOSED to go thru.

Sorry, but that is incorrect, dangerous game bullets are desinged for maximum penetration due to the large, heavy skin and bone structure of the animals in question. Expanding bullets on such a target would not reach deep enough to reach vital organs or penetrate massive skull bones.

[M1911]

I've had a couple 1911s that had some problems feeding. But I had more problems feeding FMJ than JHP (go figure) and I didn't have to do a throat and ramp job to fix them. Here's what I did:

1) use 7 round Wilson mags (not 8 round!).

2) polish the breech face.

3) adjust extractor tension.

It wasn't expensive. Will that help you? Dunno. But you don't have to spend major dollars to get most 1911s running. If the gun is relatively new, have you tried calling up Springfield? A friend of mine recently dealt with their Custom Shop and speaks very highly of them.

[Harold Mayo]

If you're shooting it out of an ultra-compact, then I don't think that it much matters whether you're running HP or ball. The velocity loss is great enough that HP ammo probably isn't going to expand reliably, anyway.

Yes, hot hollow-points are the best ammo to use, but RELIABLE ammo is better than something that doesn't feed.

Springfield should be able to make your little gun feed anything if you send it back to them, though.

[Soap]

So wait...

.45 hardball penetrates 27" of gelatin but it bounces off a GI steel helmet? :confused:

I'm so confused with all of these numbers that I think if I ever shoot anything with my 1911 or my AR it will either make the target explode or laugh.

[Graystar]

Here is another person's opinion on .45 that I think is interesting.

http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/45/45-advoc.htm

While I have come across some lethal encounters that took a lot of rounds to settle they mostly were the result of either poor hits (or complete misses) or lack of penetration. Nearly all of the high round count cases I have reviewed involved 9mms, .38s, .357’s or smaller calibers. This is not to say they do not occur with major caliber rounds. It is to say I have been collecting data for 30 years and have not encountered many cases in which multiple hits (more than three as two or three shots are a fairly normal reflex action) from major caliber cartridges to the center of the chest have not been sufficient, - the single exception being a case involving the .41 Magnum loaded with JSP bullets which did not expand - they did penetrate - it took five hits center mass to stop the attacker - and have not encountered any with the .45, even with Ball.
To be sure there is the issue of overpenetration but I feel that it is overblown. There are so many different types of tissue and bone in the human anatomy that one cannot precisely predict how much penetration he will need nor how much he will get. We have seen where bullets that give 14" of penetration consistently in ordnance gelatin can sometimes give 3" in the human body. We need a good bit more margin for error than this for rounds to be effective in their mission. Personally I want rounds that give 12 to 14 inches in gelatin as a minimum, not a maximum and frankly I really want 18 inches but there are few loads with give this and expand also.
In conclusion, having a reasonable amount of experience and study I have no doubt that the larger caliber handguns are more effective that the smaller ones, given exactly the same placement of bullets on the surface of the target, but not because of some energy, force or power which bowls people over or carries some sort of "shock". It is because they more consistently drill holes - larger holes - through the intended organs.

[dcloudy777@aol.com]

To sidestep the whole JHP VS FMJ issue, I think that Springfield should stand up and make the gun right. You're talking about a short barreled, compact pistol, obviously designed for the CCW/defensive mission. Irrespective of this current ammo debate (which is really cool BTW), JHPs are the resoundingly more popular choice for handgun ammo to fufill this same defensive mission. The gun, by nature of its intended role, should be engineered to feed JHPs with great reliablity. JMHO, shot place is a bazillion times more important anyway :evil: Good luck with whatever route you take.

Dan

[Snowdog]

45 hardball penetrates 27" of gelatin but it bounces off a GI steel helmet?

Penetrating hard objects such as steel helmets requires sufficient velocity... the .45acp is slow as a drunk slug.
But if you shoot something and it starts laughing, you'd better have your running shoes on. ;)

[Gerald McDonald]

If I remember correctly Terry Tussey recommends FMJ in his customs.
Gerald

[para.2]

1. It has to go bang! every time you pull the trigger.
2. It has to put the bullet where you're pointing it every time it goes bang!
3. That bullet has to penetrate deeply enough to damage vital structures every time it hits where it's supposed to.

Everything else is icing.

If that's your best/most reliable/accurate gun/load in your hands practice with it, carry it, use it, and don't give it a moment's hesitation.

"it ain't bein' fast, or even accurate that counts. It's bein' willin' "

[CZ-75]

Terry Tussey recommends FMJ in his customs.


:confused:


Why? Custom work means everything should work well, pretty much, not just what a stock gun could fire reliably too.

[Shaughn Leayme]

My 1911 will also feed empty casings and I use a +P load featuring a 200 GDHP and if a 1911 has a feeding problem with HP, then find a HP that closely matches the profile of ball.
Or if you want, a HP round in the chamber and have the next 7 be ball.

I know of someone who does this. He is waiting for his custom 1911 to be finished and is using a stock 1911A1 until such time as the gunsmith calls him up. He knows his first round is an effective HP and with 7 more rounds (ball) he figures he should be able to give a good accounting of himself.

Try different magazines.
Try different loads with different bullet profiles and OAL.
Check to make sure there is no problem with your pistol.

Have a smith look it over or send it back to Springfield and have them address your problem.

A nice feature of a HP...is simply this... The potential to expand is there, but should the bullet fail in it's endeavor then it is still .45 caliber....It can't shrink.

[kbellis3]

Your gun is an Ultra Compact Mil Spec and you are having problems with failures to feed.

Maybe the problem is not the gun, the problem may be the user. A friend had a compact "officers model" Charles Daly that he swore up and down was unrelaible and had all kinds of work done on the gun. I shot about 50 round of Remington Ball 230 ammo through the gun and had 3 FTF.

However, I quickly realized that the gun was not the problem, the user (me) was. I was not getting a good grip on the firearm and was not locking my wrist, thus cause the gun to FTF.

When I adjusted my grip and locked my wrist (aka no longer limp wristing the gun) the FTF's went away and the and the gun worked fine for a full box of ammo.

I then tested some hollow points and they worked fine, kicked like a great deal more in the little gun than they do in my Goverment Model, but the gun cycled perfectly.

Conclusion: My friend who was having problems firing a whole magazine without have several stoppages was the problem. He did not want to hear my conclusion about the gun, because it meant he was the problem and just need to work with the gun.

You should consider the fact that smaller 1911's have more recoil and are less tolerant of user error than the full size 1911. The problem may just be that you are not used to the firearm and need more time and practice with the firearm, using the correct techniques. Also HP rounds tend to be a little hotter loads due weight and powder charges generating more recoil muzzle blast and noise, this can throw a user when using the smaller 1911 when it would not have been a problem in a full size 1911.

Quick way to check the reliability of a gun any gun, load an empty case into your magazine, insert the magazine into you gun and hit the slide release. If the round fully chambers, then there is nothing wrong with you firearm.

Another person made reference to this technique in a response, this is actually how a gun smith checked my Springfield 1911-A1 parkerized model's feed ramp, he pronounced the gun A OK for hollow points when I walked in and asked for the feed ramp polish. Said he could still do the job, but the gun did not need it.

He told me if I was having problem with the FTF in the gun there was probably two reasons: the magazine or the user. Since I was using Wilson mags that were fairly new he told me I needed to go back to range and work on shooting fundamental and get used to shooting a .45 Government Model before dropping money on "improvements".

Kyle

PS Nothing like being 22 and half smart then being taken to school by a guy twice your age in under 2 minutes about your shooting skills.

[Gerald McDonald]

CZ75, Dont know why, you might call and ask and let us know. A guy I shoot with on occasion has one and that was what was reccomended to him by Tussey. He said that Tussey appeared to be perfectly happy with approx. 1/2" holes being punched in the target. It has never choked on anything I have seen it shoot. He has shot everything from flying ashtrays to hardball.

The reason I mention it is because there appear to be people with a lot of experience who have differing ideas. I really believe that its a personal option and what you or someone else may choose to shoot is not really a concern of mine. If I were forced to carry FMJ I wouldnt lose sleep , wouldnt even give it a second thought.

How many people do we know who during peace time and non LEO who have had to shoot someone while carrying concealed. (I know one guy and even though the NRA supplied his defense team, it still cleaned out his bank account). Home invasion is more probable but there are many better arms for that than a handgun.

Gerald

[Soap]

Snowdog- Naah, I just wear a Tactical Thermoptic camo suit that I bought from Skunk ;)

[.45Ruger]

After a trip to the range/gunshop today I make up my mind. In the 1911 I had four failures to estract out of 16 shots. This was using hardball that had been extracting okay up until now. I am now ready to kiss the 1911 goodbye. I also handled the compact XD 9. I came home to think about it but I am probably going to get rid of the 1911 and get the XD.

[Tamara]

If you cain't trust it, 86 it.

It seems that Officers-size and smaller 1911's have more than their share of problems, if it makes you feel any better. I'm thinking of trading off my heavily customized V10 (even though it's perfectly reliable with the type of ammo I've set it up for) simply because (since I've started toting 1911s IWB) I just don't see the point in a shorter-barelled 1911 any more.

[surfinUSA]

Loading an empty case just means your gun will load empty cases. Not that it will load every hollowpoint you can find. When I carried my commander the department armorer at the time told us its not all that hard to tune a 45 to feed empty cases its more of a marketing gimmick for gunsmiths rather than an indicator of a reliable gun.

I've always liked the commander. Slightly shorter than the 1911 and for me just the right size. The 1911 was always a little to big and although there are reliable compact 1911 based guns I've never trusted them.

New guns of any brand are so much better now than they were in the 70s, 80s or earlier. When I carried my commander it was common knowledge that the 45 kicked too hard, couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, were unreliable and jammed too much. Hell any Vet from WWII, Korea, or Vietnam was glad to share this info with you if they found out you carried a 45. Of course they had only handled the 45 briefly in training and were really only familiar with the M1 Garand or carbine, M14, or M16.

It was a given that all 45s except the Gold cup came with poor sights from the factory and were in fact only really reliable with hardball. Most of us had the throats polished, Bought Wilson mags (well worth the money) and found one or two hollow point loads the the gun was reliable and stuck with it. This experience was pretty much the same for most of the people I knew carrying 45s at the time. Although all these guns had a load that they like it was not interchangable with some of the other guns of my squad members. Of my threee magazines I carried one was always loaded with ball just in case. (I look back now and think I should have dumped this gun for a mosel 66 S&W.

I stopped owning 1911 based guns when I got my SIG 220 and found that not only was it accurate with any load (even more than my commander) but it would reliably feed any factory ammo and with the factory mags. Just like a guns was supposed to. Now every gun from a quality manufacturer can be expected to do that. I think we really have come a long way, at least in the refinement of factory guns.

[triggertime]

To those of you who have an adversion to people carrying .45 ACP FMJ for defensive use, what do you think is going to happen when your beloved hollowpoint of choice plugs with debris or clothing material and fails to expand? It becomes instant over-penetrative hardball. Expansion is not always absolute, so don't count on it.

[UnknownSailor]

For what it's worth, Clint Smith carries hardball in his .45. And he ain't no slouch with the ol 1911.

I carry 230 grain Gold Dots, personally, in my P-14.

[Dobe]

Sorry for the post. I reread the original, and noticed ultra compact.

My mistake

[Shaughn Leayme]

triggertime,

Yes, hollow points do get plugged on occasion and then you basically have a bullet that emulates a ball round....BUT, at least the potential for expansion and increased damage are there with the HP.
Expansion is not an absolute guarantee and we know it. That is why bullet placement is of paramount importance and repeating the placement as many times as neccessary.

I for one would rather have the chance of expansion, than have no possibility of it happening at all.

[Doc]

Shaughn Leayme
triggertime,

Yes, hollow points do get plugged on occasion and then you basically have a bullet that emulates a ball round....BUT, at least the potential for expansion

PRECISELY! I carry 230 gn +P .45 ACP in my CCW. Large hole, high velocity. If it expands, bonus!!

[Lone_Gunman]

If a JHP gets plugged up and does not expand, you do NOT really have the equivalent of hardball at all.

What you have is a projectile with all the potential feed problems of a JHP, and the inability to expand of a FMJ.

So maybe instead of the best of both worlds, you have the worst of both worlds.

Depends on your point of view.