and I'm not sure what to do about it. Is this a normal thing that you have to get used to with .30-30 brass, or can I do something to prevent it? I'm using RCBS dies that were made in the 80's......the instructions tell me to keep it clean in clean out the vent hole to prevent hydraulic problems from leftover lube - I'm gonna sound dumb, but I don't even see a hole to clean. Dies were bought on Ebay. Other than that hole, the dies are clean, might have a bit of a scratch forming on the inside - guess I should upgrade to a new set. Anyway, any ideas on what I can do to prevent this now?
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June 25, 2006, 10:14 PM
I think your seating die isn't set properly.
The trick is to set the bullet seating depth first, then the crimp. With an empty, sized case in the shell holder, hold the ram at the top of its stroke. Turn the bullet seating die body down over the case until you feel it come to a stop. This will be when the case mouth contacts the crimp shoulder inside the die. Mark this position by turning the lock ring down against the turret or press frame. Now adjust your bullet seating depth. Once you have the bullet seated to the desired depth, back the bullet seater adjuster out about 1 turn. Now turn the bullet seating die body in to apply the desired crimp. Once this is established, hold the ram at the top of its stroke and spin the bullet seater adjuster down until it stops.
Lee has a video demonstration of this on their website under "help videos".
June 25, 2006, 11:07 PM
That's my guess. Same thing happened to me, my first handful of 30-30 rounds, and it was the seating die being screwed in too far.
June 26, 2006, 10:01 AM
From the photo you're not seating the bullet far enough so the crimp will be in the cannelure. But a better idea is to forgo the crimp in the seating die and go with a Lee FCD as a seperate and final process... .30-30 tend to do this if you set the crimp to hard. The Lee FCD elliminate this little irritation.
June 26, 2006, 11:39 AM
Follow Dons directions and you`ll fix your problem
June 26, 2006, 09:39 PM
Just to be sure, I'm referring to the extra bend in the brass visible on the right side - not just the crimp not being in the right place. I thought I had done most of those instructions right fromt he RCBS die instructions. I'll give it another try tomorrow.
June 26, 2006, 09:55 PM
That's what I'm referring to in my suggestion. You are essentially crushing the case with too much crimping pressure. It happens because the neck of the 30-30 is pretty thin and if the die crimps too much, it also buckles the case downward because too much of the case is being pushed into the crimp shoulder. The result is what you photogrpahed.
June 26, 2006, 10:24 PM
This is a comon problem with seating ( for me anyway). I found the easiest thing to do is seat and crimp in two separate steps. I have had good sucess with the Lee FCD, and my chrono reports more consistant velocities.
June 26, 2006, 11:41 PM
thanks guys - i appreciate it. I'll be doing some work to try and remedy this.
By the way - my impact bullet puller won't get those rounds out of those cases - any ideas on saving them? :)
June 27, 2006, 02:36 AM
Use your inertia bullet puller on something very hard and HIT IT HARD!!! The bullet will come out in one, two or three hits...:D
June 27, 2006, 02:40 AM
A collet style bullet puller may be needed to pull those out.If the impact hammer wont do it,then the crimp is TIGHT!
but we've already established that point I reckon.:banghead:
Are you chamfering the case mouth a tad to make bullet starting easier?This might also help make things go easier for ya.
June 27, 2006, 01:07 PM
why would a newb like myself chamfer the case mouth? :)
I have so much to learn...............
am I the first that felt overwhelmed at this? Boy I hope not.
June 27, 2006, 01:24 PM
If you just want to remove the bullet take the die from your press and place the rd in the shell holder. Raise the ram and grab the bullet with a pair of pliers. Lower the ram and use the top of the press to brace the pliers, the bullet will pop right out. This can/will mar the bullet some, but if you want, for load work up they are still functional.
June 27, 2006, 02:37 PM
I would be a bit worried that gripping the bullet with a pair of pliers might distort the bullet besides scratching it. An oval shaped bullet going down a barrel might not be a good thing...:uhoh:
Everyone here has given you good advice. I can't argue with that. But I have loaded a bunch of .30-30 rounds over the 20+ years I have been reloading. Having only 2 rifles (.30-30 and .30-06) it HAS been a bunch. After fighting, bit++ing, moaning, whinning and complaining and still crunching one or two .30-30 cases on occasion I switched to the Lee FCD and have not crunched another case. As said above, make sure you campher the inside of the case mouth (not enough to make a knife edge) and make the crimp a seperate operation. Or keep having to adjust the seating/crimp die and still crunching a case or two on occasion. No problem here.....:)
June 27, 2006, 04:45 PM
Thanks again. Sounds like a lee FCD die will be in my future. Might have to find one in .250 savage ( my only other rifle caliber currently) to avoid further headaches.
June 28, 2006, 04:25 PM
You could also try just not crimping,provided you don't get bullet setback. The 30/30's long neck and resultant high bullet pull is surprisingly tolerant of this,even in tubular magazines.
June 28, 2006, 04:59 PM
This is not a flame at any one person. Not at all.
Why is it that there are so many times when someone has a setup issue that people chime in with LEE this or that in a separate stage of seat/crimp.
Bullsquat I tell ya!!! :cuss: Setting the RCBS or Lyman, Forster, or Which'a'ma'gatghit version of seat/crimp die properly will allow years of faithful service. You do not need to switch to LEE brand this or that to get good reloading experiences. This guy has sufficient if not great equipment in his RCBS die set to get the job done. These replies telling a New'B to go buy this or the other brand/style to fix his quandrum is like telling him he bought the wrong piece of equipment in the first place. WRONG.
Any one of the major reloading manufactures have either videos or a phone support person that will walk you through the correct way to set things. Mileage will not vary. They're all good at doing this.
Whether you can understand the process is another story.
Uncle Don's post is spot on. Else call RCBS. They are the manufacture of the component/tool you're using. They'll help you get it right.
I will suggest a collet style bullet puller that you mount like a die in a press to get these out. Pounding an ineria puller on anything harder than wood will only break the puller.
June 28, 2006, 05:06 PM
Damn Steve...Just trying to be helpful..:banghead: ..I really don't give a rats A$$ if he does use the +++ FCD (can't say Lee anymore:cuss: ) I tried several manufacturers seating and crimping dies and found that +++ FCD solved my problem. If it works for him (or not). So be it...:D
And yes you were....:neener: :D
June 28, 2006, 05:13 PM
I have also found Lee to have easier-to-use dies in this respect. So sue me! :D
June 28, 2006, 05:46 PM
I don't know if he was as much irritated with the brand name, too me was saying that the equipment the man had was enough to do the job. He only needed to set it correctly.
While I'm sure that other brands make good factory crimp dies, I use Lee too because they work well and are inexpensive. I will say however, that I don't use them for everything because I don't find them necessary and add a step. For straight walled revolver cartridges, I use the seater/crimper die and don't find the need for anything else. They don't see tremoundous use for most rifle cartridges at my bench either. However, I load allot of 357 Sig and feel that a FCD is imperitive here and my Lee hasn't let me down.
I'm also going to take a shot and say that he was also saying that a FCD regardless of brand is not the answer to all problems. If it takes a FCD to produce acceptable ammo, something else is not working correctly.
If you'll look to the left, there's at least one LEE component on my bench. Out of the photo are several LEE moulds and two Hand Primers. I have nothing against the company.
Bushmaster, I am absolutely not targeting you directly. Most of the time I enjoy your posts. To be honest, I didn't even look at the author of what I read. If you're in the group of people that suggests a person change his equipment brand/version to get the job done, of which his equipment 'no matter what brand' is very well capable of getting the job done, then I am sorry.
When someone has an issue with his Lee 1000, I don't reply to a post that hey, if you buy such'n such, it'll work. That's sorta like telling him he should've bought a Dillon. Right? I do understand that how you presented it, this is what works for you. And to be honest that's great.
Lee, RCBS, Hornady, Forster, Dillon... There are many others. They all make quality components. Some better. Some worse. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But when it comes to building 30-30 cartridges, (of which it's not cost effective if you can go to Wally World and get'm for $8.00 a box, -But we won't tell him or his wife), suggestng that the seat/crimp process be split into another stage, might not be the most correct answer. Don said it first. The die he's using is not set properly. If he doesn't get this now, he could verywell have the same problem with different equipment. Even if he separates the crimp stage. FCD dies may not be available for a different caliber choice he has. Any reloader needs to know how to set the equipment properly to use it safely and get the results desired.
June 28, 2006, 07:04 PM
L O L... No offence taken Steve. I was just having fun with the situation. My loading bench is a mixed bag of various manufacturers. Whatever makes it more convenient for me to produce the best ammunition that I can...Of all the calibres I reload I only have two +++ FCD's...One for .30-30 and one for .38 Special...
And I, also, look forward to your comments. Most of the time your pros give food for thought...And I get hungry from time to time.:D
June 28, 2006, 07:17 PM
Do they allow Kaliphornians in Missouri?
Cosmoline, Do I need to employ a tracker to get a court summons to you? Or just tie an envelope around the sled dogs neck?
June 28, 2006, 07:32 PM
I'm not sure if they will, but it's too late. I paid cash for a place and have the deed and enough firearms and ammunition to convince them. besides I am a displaced Oregon Redneck. Spent 16 years in Seattle, too. I know where you live..:D ..My favorite hunting and trout fishing is in the Snoqualame river basin above Spur 10 bridge.
Rock_Steady...How we doin'??? Still with us?:uhoh:Off topic...
June 29, 2006, 08:48 AM
I'm still here and watching the snuffed-out flame war. :) really, thanks for the help. And as for the .30-30 available - what am I gonna do when the Mutant Zombie Bikers take over Wal-mart?
I just like doing it on my own and making my own accurate ammo - I just hope I can figure it out and get it working.
And I started smacking the bullet puller on the end of a 2X6- longways. Working like a charm. I guess the other stuff I was hitting it on was absorbing most of the force - I've got dents in my woodworking bench to prove it. I'll have another go with the RCBS dies - maybe seat first, then remove or back off the seating plug and try crimping that way. Or I can try the first advice posted.
June 30, 2006, 09:18 AM
I would like to raise my hand and assert my two cents. I have two thoughts on issues raised in this string.
First of all the ecconomics of loading .30-30. I have a set of RCBS .30-30 dies along with dies for close to 30 other cartridges made by all major manufacturers. I fully understand that all all of these do not make ecconmic sense. I don't shoot a lot of .32 S&W for example. However, the last deer I killed in Wisconsin, I killed with my pre-64 model 94. For me anyway, having handloaded and tested the ammunition added to the overall experience. Sure it would have been cheaper to go to a discount store to buy the ammo
The other point is crimping with a FCD vs the built in crimping step in my RCBS. The fixed step in the RCBS works great when cartridge cases are exactly the same length. With a case that headspaces on its rim, case stretch can be more pronouced necessitating that the brass be trimmed after each firing. (Some would say it should be anyway) The FCD is more tolerant of variations in the case length.
I'll sit down at my bench now. I just enjoy reloading
June 30, 2006, 10:14 AM
I didn't see anyone mention case trimming.
I have found out through the years (I first loaded my first metallic rifle cartridge- the .30/30 in 1969 !!!), that with the .30wcf (same thing as .30/30- just quicker to type!) IT REALLY HELPS TO TRIM THE CASES BEFORE THE FIRST "RELOADING", AND EVERY 5 OR SO ROUNDS AFTERWARDS.
If you don't, you are quickly going to find that different lot#s, and different manfacturers brass are going to vary significantly in over-all length (OAL) such that some will NOT crimp, and others will over-crimp as yours did, even with the same die/seater/crimper setting.
No blast against any of the Die manfacturers, as they are all good.
But, you will find the LEE FCD to be a valuable addition to your die selection. Far in excess of its purchase price.
By the way, if you are loading the .30wcf, Reloader 15 powder is the best, and I've used them ALL !! (Bullseye to H4831) Unique is outstanding for light cast bullet loads. 28-30gr of RL-15 is fabulous with a hard cast/gaschecked 150-165gr bullet.
Good luck as you learn to reload.
The learning never stops, the learning curve just flattens out a "little" !!!
June 30, 2006, 10:31 AM
I said to trim...Didn't I? No I didn't...Well darn....I guess that after this many years that you sometimes take it for granted that reloaders know that they must measure their cases for length and trim them as needed. I keep my .30-30 cases trimmed to 2.035. And I have found that the +++FCD does require cases be the same length +/- .002 or you won't get a consistent crimp from round to round.
Remington case, CCI-200 primmer, 32 grains of W-748 under a Speer 170 FNSP...:)
June 30, 2006, 11:27 AM
By the way, if you are loading the .30wcf, Reloader 15 powder is the best, and I've used them ALL !! Darn if he isn't right. RE15 is now the only powder that I'll use for my 30-30 loads.
June 30, 2006, 01:31 PM
Hey Rock, You're verifying the length of your cases, right? 30-30's don't stretch much, but they can. As you reload more, or get yourself a magnum rifle, or even a magnum pistol, you'll soon learn that the brass stretches with every shot. A case trimmer is one tool I added to my reloading bench very shortly after I started reloading.
Xtarheel, "The fixed step in the RCBS works great when cartridge cases are exactly the same length. "
GooseGestapo added weight to that.
And Bushmaster too,
"I said to trim...Didn't I? No I didn't...Well darn....I guess that after this many years that you sometimes take it for granted that reloaders know that they must measure their cases for length and trim them as needed."
And I plumb didnt' think of mentioning it, as it's a step I also don't even think about when I reload. I just do it. The only cartridges I don't measure.. 45acp and 9mm. Everything, and I mean every other caliber I reload for, I measure and trim. OK, maybe not so often for the .38spl.. But especially the rifle brass and my 'hunting hand cannon' loads.
Brings me to something I probably should develop for a friend that I'm slowly teaching to reload. A check list is invaluable and will save you frustration when reloading. Once you're good at it, you won't need the list. I'll have to work on that list for him. Maybe I'll share it here on THR later for new-B's.
June 30, 2006, 03:03 PM
I think a check list is a great idea. There seem to be quite a few "newbies" here along with some us with wiskers. Obviously, the best advice that the newbies get is to buy good manuals and read them before buying any reloading equipment. However, a "sticky" post with a reloading check list would be a good supliment.
June 30, 2006, 11:09 PM
I'd love to see a checklist - especially since finding that there are things that I had no idea I had to do that are absolutely necessary. I feel better about using my RCBS dies to drimp knowing that if the trim is done correctly, they should work alright. That helps.
Actually, having one checklist for straight-walled cases and another for bottleneck would be a good idea too.
And for my next batch, I have trimmed the cases.
July 2, 2006, 12:43 PM
You should also check the case length for assurance they aren't too long...:cool:
July 3, 2006, 03:44 AM
Ok, I started a check list for the single stage bottle neck reloader at the office the other day. I'll see if I can refine it throughout my next day at work and submit it to this thread, or link to another, getting input and buy off for a sticky from a moderator. Like I said, there are things we 'just do', that are actually in all the manuals, but it's difficult to put things in absolute order. I do things in batch mode and will sometimes have coffee cans full of brass in one condition or the other awaiting the next step.
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