1911 Cocked and Locked?


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PinnedAndRecessed
June 26, 2006, 06:22 PM
I've completed the coursework/paperwork for my CCL. If approved, one of the handguns I'm thinking of carrying is a Series 80, Combat Commander.

However, because I'm not comfortable with the idea of Condition 1, I'm considering the following holster:

http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/forestandfield_1886_3086966

If you notice, the thumb strap blocks the firing pin from the hammer.
I just wouldn't want the safety to disengage with me not knowing it and the gun discharging. Thus the added safety of the holster.

My question: It just dawned on me that my Series 80 has a firing pin block (which my Series 70 does not). Does that firing pin block mean that the trigger must be depressed for the gun to fire?

thanx.

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zahc
June 26, 2006, 06:39 PM
all 1911s theoretically need the trigger pulled in order to fire, because of the half-cock notch.

Navy87Guy
June 26, 2006, 06:57 PM
I hope you have your flame-resistant suit on....anyone who brings up carrying a 1911 in anything other than Condition 1 becomes an instant target!

Besides the firing pin block, you're also discounting the grip safety. So in order to have an ND while carrying, you'd have to: 1) disengage the thumb safety, 2) activate the grip safety and 3) pull the trigger. Most people call that....firing the gun!

Carry Condition 1 -- or find yourself a traditional DA/SA that you'd be more comfortable with.

Just my $0.02...

Jim

1911Tuner
June 26, 2006, 07:11 PM
Carry the gun unloaded in Condition One until it convinces you that it won't shoot a hole in your gluteus maximus...or in my case...gluteus minimus.:cool:

res1b3uq
June 26, 2006, 07:38 PM
If you like the holster, get it. The holster has to please you, noone else. Nobody is even supposed to see it, or know that you are wearing it. I like the strap myself. Just rest assured, a series 80 pistol cocked & locked is one of the safest pistols you can carry, yet is useable in an instant.

PinnedAndRecessed
June 26, 2006, 08:01 PM
This quote was from post #5 re this very subject, here:

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=147478

A late acquaintance of mine who worked for Picatinny Arsenal told me of tests they did on stock US Army issue GM's way back when. He told me that it took at least an 11' drop directly on the muzzle for a GM to fire.


If the grip safety must be depressed for the hammer to reach the firing pin, how is the above possible?

Lennyjoe
June 26, 2006, 08:07 PM
If you feel it necessary to carry with the thumbstrap then by all means do so. I have a Galco OWB that does that exact same thing. I only wear it during the cooler part of the year when I have a jacket on. Most other times (which is 90% of the time in Arizona) I carry the Kimber .45 in an IWB holster that is an open top.

ugaarguy
June 26, 2006, 08:08 PM
Pre Series 80 there was no firing pin block. Without the block the firing pin floats freely in the channel. The fact that 11' minimum drops are what it takes to get the pin to bump a primer hard enough to set it off is why most folks think the firing pin blocks are unneccesary.

lurkersince03
June 26, 2006, 08:08 PM
Inertia carrying the firing pin after a sudden impact? Old ammo, too, with softer primers maybe in combination?

Old Fuff
June 26, 2006, 08:19 PM
I think that you have the perfect answer to your own question. Any holster with a strap that goes over the back of the slide, and in front of the cocked hammer, will provide the extra security that you would feel confortable with.

How others feel, or how they carry, is a moot point.

As for the Series 80 firing pin block: Yes, you do have to pull the trigger to disengage the firing pin block.

1911Tuner
June 26, 2006, 08:50 PM
Quote:

>Inertia carrying the firing pin after a sudden impact?<
********************

New firing pin springs are cheap at under 2 bucks a copy, and available from Brownells.

Personally, I won't carry one WITH a Series 80 or Swartz system...but that's just me. Oh yeah! I carry in an open-top holster too. Have for over 25 years.

*checks gluteus minimus* All present and accounted for.

MCgunner
June 26, 2006, 09:10 PM
When I carried my 1911s, it was in a thumb break holster. I found it little effort to draw from with some practice and it did make me feel a little better about condition one. I say go for it.

I'm comfortable enough with the guns to dispense with the thumb break now days if I carried a 1911. They're safer than they seem, redundant safeties, yet just flick off the safety on the draw. I really prefer DAs, but I can understand the 1911 thing much as I like to bad mouth 'em. :D DA takes some dedication to learn to shoot well. A single action trigger is easier to learn.

Byron Quick
June 26, 2006, 09:29 PM
One thing I've noticed over the years with people who are hesitant about carrying a 1911 in Condition One. They'll tote a shotgun in Condition One all day long without a redundant grip safety. Appears to be something about seeing that cocked hammer.

If the thumb strap holster calms you then by all means. It's certainly better than carrying a 1911 with the hammer down on either a loaded or unloaded chamber..

It might slow your draw 1/10 of a second...if that. If that makes a difference in the outcome, you're facing the reincarnation of John Wesley Hardin and it wouldn't have made a difference anyhow.

PinnedAndRecessed
June 26, 2006, 10:17 PM
They'll tote a shotgun in Condition One all day long without a redundant grip safety

Only that shotgun ain't pointing at my butt. :)

mmike87
June 26, 2006, 11:07 PM
Personally, I think a minimalist approach to holsters is best I had a thumb-break holster for a little while a few years ago. Once I had some experience carrying I realized that IMO it was more of a hinderance and really didn't help anything. The strap seemed like something that could get caught on something and create problems of it's own.

I personally feel the cocked and locked 1911 handgun is the safest gun to carry. It amazes me that folks will carry Glocks with relatively light pulls and no external safeties whatsoever (not a Glock knock, so no flames!) but are terrified to carry a C&L 1911 with two physical, external, visible safeties.

HOWEVER - by all means do what you feel safe doing. It's your responsbility ultimately.

Best of luck.

Ala Dan
June 26, 2006, 11:16 PM
Like my friend Lennyjoe and other's, I prefer the open top carry
of Kirkpatrick Leather OWB's for all my 1911's~!:cool:

But, if you feel safer knowing that a thumbstrap rest between the hammer
and firing pin; by all means that is the route you need to go.:D

Top Gun Supply
June 26, 2006, 11:36 PM
Condition one is a very safe and effective way to carry a 1911. I have never had a hammer drop without first disengaging the thumb safety, depressing the grip safety, and pulling the trigger.

The striker system guns like Glock and Springfield XD are normally carried cocked. It is a different system, but the striker is under spring pressure ready to go when the trigger is pulled, just like a 1911 hammer. Nobody gives a second thought to that, because you don't see a big, shiney hammer sticking up from your belt. It is visually intimidating, that's all.

agdude
June 26, 2006, 11:46 PM
I may be wrong, but glocks are not under any tension. The firing pin is drawn back and released when the trigger is pulled. But when at rest, under no tension. Not trying to disagree, but I think that's how they work. :)

Top Gun Supply
June 27, 2006, 12:19 AM
Yeah, my post wasn't technically correct. The Glock striker is cocked approximately 63% when a round is chambered and the XD is fully cocked.

MCgunner
June 27, 2006, 09:55 AM
Quote:
They'll tote a shotgun in Condition One all day long without a redundant grip safety


Only that shotgun ain't pointing at my butt.

Precisely. :D When I go in the field, I don't load up until the decoys are out, I'm settled in where I'm going to hunt. Soon as the hunt's over, the gun is unloaded. And, OF COURSE, I'm muzzle aware. I don't hunt with people that aren't muzzle aware, DO YOU HEAR THAT DICK CHENY??? :eek: :D

Apples and oranges.

On the Glock, the striker may not be fully cocked, but what bothers me is the little effort it takes to get it fully cocked. I'd rather have a SA with redundant safeties. But, if you like "safe action", I have no problem with that. I just don't think I wanna carry one. I'm a heck of a lot more nervous with that system than a condition one 1911. That said, I prefer true DA and revolvers.

Essex County
June 27, 2006, 02:49 PM
Condition two is for folks that don't understand the 1911. Condition three is for the unprepared.......Which do You want to be? Essex.

mmike87
June 27, 2006, 04:38 PM
Nobody gives a second thought to that, because you don't see a big, shiney hammer sticking up from your belt. It is visually intimidating, that's all.

So true. Perhaps there's big money to be made in developing a "hammer hat" for 1911's that covers the hammer so everyone feels better ... :D

Geno
June 27, 2006, 04:55 PM
I prefer open top.

I have a beautiful, new, tan DeSantis (with strap) #001-85 for my 1911s that I have used once. Never did like it. It's beautiful, but the strap slows me down. If I ever needed to draw, I don't want any extra gadgets to get in the way.

JMHO

Doc2005

1911Tuner
June 27, 2006, 05:17 PM
Doc wrote:

> If I ever needed to draw, I don't want any extra gadgets to get in the way.<
**********

Amen to that, Doc. A wise man once told me:

"A pistol is like an ambulance. You won't need one very often, but if you do...you'll probably need it badly, and you'll need it right now."


In kill or be killed situations, the outcome is often decided in tiny fractions of a second.

PinnedAndRecessed
June 27, 2006, 06:35 PM
I have a beautiful, new, tan DeSantis (with strap) #001-85 for my 1911s that I have used once. Never did like it.

Wouldn't happen to be left-handed, would it?

CSA 357
June 27, 2006, 07:13 PM
i carry my 1911 in a bianchi askins avenger, no snap on it ,cocked and locked is the only way i carry mine, i forget where i read it, but there was a texas ranger that went to this big party carrying his 1911 cond 1 and this lady saw it and asked him isnt that dangerous? he replyed yes mam, i always liked that!*csa*:)

kansas45
June 27, 2006, 09:05 PM
I can't carry a gun in Kansas yet. But I do carry one around on private land when hikeing or fishing or something. I have carried my Ultra Compact quite a bit & always carry it "Cocked & Locked". In my opinion that is the only way to have it. I have had no problem's at anytime with it. When January 1st,2007 come's around & if everything goes as planed & we can carry in Kansas that will one of the gun's I will use. Practice carrying your's without a round chamberd but cocked with the safety on for awhile & you will be comfortable doing it that way.

Black Knight
June 27, 2006, 09:42 PM
I carry my Series 70 Gov't Model in an old Bianchi Shadow. It looks very similar to your holster. The strap between the hammer and frame do make it a little safer. It took me quite a while just to get used to it being in Condition 1. Hopefully I will never be 100% comforable with it. I feel the more comfortable you are the more likely you are to become complacent and have an accident. I don't want to become complacent. I know others will say hogwash but anything that helps you keep from having an accident the better. Train with it til it becomes second nature. Train with it unloaded until you feel somewhat comfortable. I have been carrying professionally since Dec. 1978. I started with revolvers and now I mostly carry semi-autos. Choose the holster that you feel good about. Remember the trinity of firing, thumb safety off, grip safety on, pull trigger; if one is missing it will not fire. That is unless there is a worn safety, and they are reletively easy to fix.

jdmb03
June 28, 2006, 01:23 PM
I feel very comfortable carrying in condition 1. Like others have said you have the manual safety and the grip safety. Give it a try, I'm sure you'll get used to it.

rtl
June 28, 2006, 11:21 PM
I too prefer an open top holster such as a Don Hume belt slide, but what you're looking at there is also one darn fine holster. If you like it and it works for you, don't hesitate.

An idea - to get used to condition 1 carry, maybe carry it unloaded in the holster around the house for a few weeks. Once you see that it won't fire until you want it to fire, you may feel better about it. Just a thought.

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