[JohnKSa]

Does the number of practice rounds "really" make a difference for shot placement? It pretty much all goes south when the first incoming round shows up. Unless you practice with someone shooting at you.Lessee here...

Yes.
No.
Um... Right. :rolleyes:

I would say it depends on your practice methods to some extent, but I think that if you are a good shot (which is based in part on how much/how well you practice), your shot placement will be better than otherwise.

Your skills will be degraded to some extent by high levels of stress. The key is whether you're degrading excellent skills (gained by extensive practice) or whether your degrading practically non-existent skills. How well you shoot in a high stress situation depends on how well you handle stress and how well you shoot unstressed. If you're REALLY bad at handling stress, you might be able to accurately say that "it all goes south" but in general, the better you shoot unstressed, the better you will shoot stressed.

The key isn't whether you're being shot at or not, it's whether you're under stress or not. There are ways to creat a high-stress environment without shooting at someone. This would allow them to learn to shoot under high stress and also to learn how to deal with high stress.

[Jack19]

One of the benefits of working in a morgue is that I get to see what works and what doesn't. Ballistic gelatin is good as far as it goes, but there's nothing like seeing what a bullet actually does once it strikes bone, flesh, and organs. Suffice it to say, it doesn't always mimic ballistic gelatin.


hahahahahaha. This is too easy. If you work in a morgue, don't ALL calibers work????

LMAO:D

I could understand the point if the guy was a doctor...and people came in, well, alive....

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Does the number of practice rounds "really" make a difference for shot placement? It pretty much all goes south when the first incoming round shows up.

A SEAL Team working up for deployment fires an awful lot of practice rounds in the six month period prior to the float. It seems like many of the groups that do go in harms way place a premium on training.

How you train probably makes a bigger difference than the number of rounds though. The guy who practices drawing from concealment and engaging reactive targets from the move for 2,900 rounds is probably going to be better off than the guy who spends 7,000 rounds standing in a shooting lane, shooting at paper and casually taking his time with aiming, reloading and shooting.

Unless you practice with someone shooting at you.

Force on force with simunitions! A little pricier and harder to organize though so I don't do that one too much; but it is definitely a learning experience and lets you learn in a stressful but safer environment if done properly.

One thing I noticed in our class is that people tend to revert to their training under stress - and if people didn't have training that addressed that situation there tended to be a few more seconds of "Uh what do I do now?" before their brain kicked in.

[hatterasurf]

I'm tired of this post. I know i'm new to this site and i may not know as much as the guy reading this(you) BUT if a person is shot with any gun it is going to phase him to apoint that he pauses or stops from death. That why i feel 100% safe caring a 9mm. How would you react to being shoot with a 9mm? Who wants to ask this guy question about what he thinks, he know no more that anyone else. He sees bodies that have been shot, and cause of that they are dead. So any caliber he see works. :banghead:

[Checkman]

I have to agree. It's time to put this thread to rest. Let us start it up again in a couple of months.

[boomstik45]

You can put this thread to rest, but another just like it will spring up. Why? How? Easy: someone will bring up something that eventually turns into a caliber war, like usual. Because they can't stand the fact that somebody else doesn't like their particular caliber, type of gun, etc. And then all the "facts" will begin to appear. Oh well, this IS a gun forum. It's also one reason that I am open to and will carry various weapons with different calibers. I like .45 and 9mm due to the variety of platforms available, variety of loadings, and availability of ammunition everywhere I go. :D Tell ya what else, though: fighting... or self defense, rather...is so much more than just guns and what kind you carry, caliber, etc. It's about awareness, particularly in regard to surroundings. And it's about being able to use more than just a gun (which you may not even get to or may be used against you)....but that's not really a discussion for this forum. Too many scenarios to discuss, ya know?

[Gord]

Because they can't stand the fact that somebody else doesn't like their particular caliber, type of gun, etc.

I think what I'm going to do is start fanboying for the .22LR or .25ACP. I'll spout some gibberish about sectional density and ballistic coefficients and I won't back down until everyone accepts .22LR/.25ACP as the only round a real man who's got a pair and is serious about protecting him and his will carry. Damn the torpedoes (and the gel tests and the witness accounts and the empirical evidence) - I'm right and I know it! :neener:

Oughta throw the .45 guys for a loop. :D

[Rotorflyr]

think what I'm going to do is start fanboying for the .22LR or .25ACP. I'll spout some gibberish about sectional density and ballistic coefficients and I won't back down until everyone accepts .22LR/.25ACP as the only round a real man who's got a pair and is serious about protecting him and his will carry

Say what you will, but both those calibers have killed plenty of people. As has the .32acp
Doesn't mean they are the most effective choices, but if that's all you have, it's better then nothing. ;)






*and no, none of those would likely be my first choice

[Panthera Tigris]

I guess those of us who aren't strong enough to handle the .40 and .45 might as well just get rid of our puny 9mms and give up. :rolleyes:


Didn't anyone notice when someone who knew that pathologist over at the s&w forum called him out, the pathologist never responded?

He said something to the effect that he was busy now and had other things to do and disappeared without ever responding to the one who knew him.

That says a lot right there, AFAIC

[AK103K]

If you can handle a 9mm, you can easily handle a .45acp. Neither have much recoil, and if anything, the 9mm is snappier.

[boomstik45]

Tactical Ninja, I'll aid your argument by saying that .22 is better than .25 just because it has more versatility in loadings. Besides, with the surge of .17hmr, the .25 is almost dead, right? Heh, heh, heh. That'll draw even more flames if we can get anybody to participate. Okay, back onto my rocker now...:evil: :rolleyes:

[Panthera Tigris]

If you can handle a 9mm, you can easily handle a .45acp. Neither have much recoil, and if anything, the 9mm is snappier.


Not true. Not even close. I can rapid fire a 9mm, but I cannot handle the .45. I just sold a 1911 because I cannot handle the .45. My hands are getting aged and have arthritis. I've tried both the .45 and .40 and I cannot handle the recoil of either. I can handle 9mm and 38 special just fine however.

[arinvolvo]

all i know is that i can empty a mag of 9mm accurately into my target in about half the time i can do the same with a mag (less rounds) of 40 cal.

[Gord]

Tactical Ninja, I'll aid your argument by saying that .22 is better than .25 just because it has more versatility in loadings. Besides, with the surge of .17hmr, the .25 is almost dead, right?

Frm now on, whenever a caliber war starts up, we are to begin arguing amongst ourselves - vehemently - about which is better, the .22, .25, or .17HMR. Understood? :D

With any luck, all the 9mm-vs.-.45 guys will join the fray, fueled by my claims that I CCW a Beretta 21 and carry a Jetfire with a 5-point tactical sling as a member of Blackwater's VIP protection squad.

"That .25, it's the flattest-shootin' manstopper I've ever seen..."

[AK103K]

Panthera,

I hadnt considered that aspect of it. I guess I should keep it in mind, I'm not all that far off.

I've never had any problem with any of them recoil wise. Each has its own impulse, but I've never found any of them hard to shoot well with. To me the 9mm is "snappier" where the .45 is more of a push, the 357SIG/.40 are somewhere in the middle.

Barring physical problems, if your in reasonable shape, you should be able to handle any of them. I often think that people worry to much about recoil than just concentrate on shooting and putting the rounds in there. The more you fight the recoil, the harder it is to shoot. If you relax, its a whole new experience. At least it is for me.

[AJD]

I like .45 ACP. Your views may differ. Fact is, there is no perfect evidence to support that 9mm is better than .40 SW or .45 ACP or vice verse or etc. etc.

A reliable, accurate handgun with an accurate shooter behind it will always be a more important factor than what size bullet he is throwing downrange.

[High Planes Drifter]

edit

[High Planes Drifter]

The .25 has that sort of "slow roll" to it, whereas the .22 is "snappier". I dont really like the recoil of the .17 tho; and ammo is so darned pricey. I dunno, there's really not much difference in the size of the hole between the 3. :D

[Gord]

The .25 has that sort of "slow roll" to it

Are you insinuating that anything invented by JMB isn't capable of downing grizzly? :fire:

And regarding the .22LR - my great-grandfather carried his trusty U22 Neos into Cheyenne territory during the Battle of the Bulge and was credited with killing over 40 Vietcong with a single magazine of ammo.

I also heard from a friend's uncle's niece's pool boy's cat's groomer's babysitter that she saw a cop shoot a bad guy who soaked up 63 rounds of 9mm to the face without so much as flinching, and then killed the cop with a single .22LR shot to the pinkie. Turned him into a cloud of fine red mist and spalled from his knee to his shoulder and back again!

Are you contesting my inarguable proof that the .22LR is the king of manstoppers?

I say, sir, you are a charlatan of the most wicked variety!

[steelhead]

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/PHD/PHD593/200122842-001.jpg

[up_onus]

its like the energizer bunny....

anyway, so forensically(spelling?) he doesnt see a lot of dead people....
does that mean they didnt get stopped?

and...
Ill take a 9mm over a .380, .32, or .22 any day!
somehow this gun has managed to stay around as long as it has, must be because its a HORRIBLE calibre....

[Oregongundude]

Yes, I have all three of the major handguns in automatics and I believe they will all do the job. I think my Winchester Ranger 9 mm 127 grain +p+ JHP will do a fine job at killing about as good as my .45 acp with the 165 grain corbon's, or my 155 Federal grain hydra shoks out of my .40 SW. In most cases the 9 mm JHP's usually hit the spine and end the attackers life with good shot placement.

I think my Chevy SUV has 100% one hit knockdown rating. I would use it as a weapon if needed.

:uhoh:

[mr.trooper]

Again, how do we know this "Expert" isnt making it up?

There are LOTS of armchair experts that are MORE than willing to bend the truth in order to promote their pet caliber and pull down the caliber that, for whatever arbitrary reason, they have elected to hate. :rolleyes:

The bottom line is, we have to take this guys WORD that he is some kind of mortition, and not just a janitor that works in the mourge. :rolleyes:

One thing that makes me suspicious is how he hates 9mm, but thinks 357 is a "glorious" self defence round. You CANT tell me ther is any real difference between a .355 hollow point and a .357 hollowpoint; especialy when so many plain-jane JHPs in bolth calibers will penetrate through-and-through the target. :rolleyes:

[Panthera Tigris]

You've hit it right on the head, Mr Trooper. He dodged the other guy on the thread who thought he might know him. That alone made his claims dubious in my opinion. There were other discrepancies pointed out in his claims by others too, such as the huge number of autopsies per year he claimed to have been involved in.

[boomstik45]

Well, Ninja, I would have to say that I'd much rather go with the .25 because the .22 long rifle means the grip of the gun might be bigger....uh, doesn't it? Besides, I don't know if I could handle the recoil of a "rifle" round in a pistol. :eek: Besides, the .25 is bigger, .05 bigger to be exact! I would just have to get myself a nearly extinct Raven Arms or maybe a Titan (good luck finding one of those boogers) with a tactical stainless slide and one spring to hold it all together. Hey wait a minute. Maybe I could get a revolver chambered in .17Hmr. Yeah, the speed of a .223 with the knock down power of a .....ummmm....well....hmmm...well, it's more than what your's is, I can tell ya that, buddy!!:neener: :neener:

[seeker_two]

Actually, the great advantage to the .25ACP is that it can be reloaded into something better than those wimpy factory loads. I've been experimenting with the Hornady 35gr XTP under a compressed load of 16 grains of 2400 using .30-30 cases that have been trimmed, resized, and fireformed. I call it the ".260 Rowland" and plan to test it just as soon as I find a volunteer willing to take my FIE Titan to the range (I'm just too busy, you know... ;) )


More than a few times, I have carried a 9mm pistol with a .25ACP as backup. According to many on this thread, I should be dead already.... :p

[High Planes Drifter]

I also heard from a friend's uncle's niece's pool boy's cat's groomer's babysitter that she saw a cop shoot a bad guy who soaked up 63 rounds of 9mm to the face without so much as flinching, and then killed the cop with a single .22LR shot to the pinkie. Turned him into a cloud of fine red mist and spalled from his knee to his shoulder and back again!
-------------------------------------

I dont doubt it for a second. Its a rifle round chambered in a pistol for Petes Sake !:what:


-------------------------------------
.22 long rifle means the grip of the gun might be bigger....uh, doesn't it?
------------------------------------

Possibly, but modern manufacturing materials have somewhat aleviated this problem. Something else to consider is the potential flak you'll get in the courtroom (should you need to use the weapon) when the DA holds up your gun (hand cannon) in front of a jury.

[Manedwolf]

Actually, the great advantage to the .25ACP is that it can be reloaded into something better than those wimpy factory loads. I've been experimenting with the Hornady 35gr XTP under a compressed load of 16 grains of 2400 using .30-30 cases that have been trimmed, resized, and fireformed. I call it the ".260 Rowland" and plan to test it just as soon as I find a volunteer willing to take my FIE Titan to the range (I'm just too busy, you know... )


I wish someone WOULD make a .25ACP +P ball round, since the sturdy Beretta Jetfire could certainly handle it. I guess it's the liability factor, since a potmetal cheap whatever might just explode.

MagSafe .25ACP is actually +P, with a much louder bang and bigger muzzleflash, but, well, it's MagSafe, and in all tests I've seen, utterly ineffective, little metal petals and micro-sized steel pellets that wouldn't even penetrate.

But .25ACP +P with ball, or maybe the Gold Dot or XTP would definitely be interesting. 50gr ball with +P velocity, I'd like to see the ballistics results of that.

Does anyone who sells reloads sell such a thing?

[cookekdjr]

Quote:
The typical 9mm shooter on the street uses some really weak ammo.


How do you figure that?

Borachon,

That's just been my experience as a career prosecutor who's specialized in violent crime. Usually its some kind of cheap 115gr fmj or jhp round. The difference in 9mm performance between the cheap 115gr stuff and the better 147gr stuff or the 124-127gr +p and +p+ rounds are dramatic. Its like comparing .380 and .357. This is based on my experience. YMMV.
-David

[Oregongundude]

I also heard from a friend's uncle's niece's pool boy's cat's groomer's babysitter that she saw a cop shoot a bad guy who soaked up 63 rounds of 9mm to the face without so much as flinching, and then killed the cop with a single .22LR shot to the pinkie. Turned him into a cloud of fine red mist and spalled from his knee to his shoulder and back again

:banghead:


Yes, you have to love the humor on this forum. That's a classic.

:)

[Gord]

Laughing at the vaporization of one of our fine law enforcement officers... for shame, Oregongundude. For shame. :uhoh:

[Trumpetman]

I'm an average-Joe kind of guy, lower middle class I guess. A few years ago I read a post in this forum that caught my attention. That was just after I had been robbed and fired at. I'm quoting from memory, so it may not be exact:

"It would be wise for a new shooter to buy the best gun he can afford, in the most powerful caliber he can afford to practice with."

I tried several handguns at that time. I wasn't recoil shy, so I wanted a .357 magnum, a .44 magnum, or a .45 ACP, but I knew I wouldn't be able to afford a lot of ammo in those calibers, as I am medically retired and on a low fixed income. That's the reason I opted for double-action-only 9MM S&W.

Granted, I can't afford to shoot Cor-Bon +P's for everyday practice, but I can afford to shoot a lot of Winchester USA's and finish each session with 10 or 20 Winchester +P's. At the end of the year I shoot the Cor-Bon +P's and buy a box of new ones.

Since that time I have acquired some other handguns, and I've been reloading .38's and .357's for the past year. My aunt gave me a .25 ACP pocket gun. I found a very nice-shooting snub-nose .38 really cheap, and I've practiced with it enough to be able to ring the 50-yard gong all day long and poke 5 holes in a paper plate at 10 yards. Eventually I found someone who wanted a .410 shotgun, so he traded me a Taurus model 65 (.357 magnum) for the shotgun plus some "boot" money. After firing enough rounds in each caliber to pass my paper plate test, I now feel comfortable carrying any one of these guns. Of course I always choose the most potent caliber for the clothing of the season, and I never carry the .25 ACP as a primary because I have the .38 snub.

I carry a handgun everywhere I go, even to church every Sunday. Usually it's the 9MM, but I like them all.

[Drewrw]

Isn't there a video floating around here on the High Road where a trooper or deputy is having a man open a box in the back of his truck, and the man turns on the officer and tries to stab him? In that video I believe the officer shoots him....with his .45....and then watches while the guy walks around, has a conversation with the officer about why the officer shot him, and then fights with him later when the officer decides to take him to the pavement. If I remember correctly, the officer's gun was a .45 (don't quote me though) and that he didn't just "wing" the man.Hopefully someone else knows the video and can post it here.

Anyway my point is that you are talking about a few hundreds of an ounce difference in weight between a .45 slug and 9mm, and a couple of hundred feet per second difference in speed between the two. In my opinion, they are essentially the same in regards to their effectiveness in stopping a threat. Both require shot placement to be effective. In fact, it might be better for a shooter to carry a caliber they are UNCOMFORTABLE with. One that they doubt the effectiveness of. If they did this, they would be FAR more inclined to make sure they aimed their meager weapon to get the most benefit.

People have survived being shot with a .308 and larger rifles. Many of them during wartime. Some of these people have continued to fight for long periods of time after being wounded. Arguing about which bullet is better at the pistol level is ridiculous when we know that even rifles are occasionally ineffective in stopping a threat. None of the pistol calibers are truly effective, truth be known, and arguing about the effectiveness of one under powered pocket slug thrower versus another underpowered slug thrower...although amusing to watch and occasionally participate in...seems pointless.




Thank god!!! Someone who knows what they are talking about.

[Blacklabman]

12 page's worth of reading. :eek:

I still like Speer 124gr +P Gold Dots out of a G26.

[bg226]

Isn't there a video floating around here on the High Road where a trooper or deputy is having a man open a box in the back of his truck, and the man turns on the officer and tries to stab him? In that video I believe the officer shoots him....with his .45....and then watches while the guy walks around, has a conversation with the officer about why the officer shot him, and then fights with him later when the officer decides to take him to the pavement.


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=212620

[randall Smith]

I am new here.My name is Randy Smith.I am just now learning about ballistics. I don't shoot a 9mm pistol but, the Hi Point 995 carbine. I am quite happy with it.I target practice with 115 grain FMJ (for the price) but, for protection I use 147 grain HP's. The 995 is not concealable like a pistol but, easily gives me a range of 100 yards.It does not require a liscene but, carries very well by my seat in my truck. For me this is a poor man's assualt rifle. Ammo is cheap and the weapon was under $200 with a life time garrantee. Do any of you shoot a 9mm in a carbine? If so what about the various grains 115,124, and 147 in a carbine? I look forward to your replies. Take care all, Randy

[boomstik45]

I'm thinking of making my own cartridge too. How about a .30-.06 necked down to a .17? OH yeahhh, that'll be one zippin' er...."spot" of lead. Haven't figured out a good platform to launch it from, though. Back to the ol' drawing board...


Randall, one of the most pleasant 9mm carbines is also one of the cheapest. It ain't much on looks, but the Hi Point 9mm carbine is still going for around $199.00 I think. And it's a pretty reliable, accurate shooting gun. Also, if you don't mind less weight, more plastic, and an even odder look, check out the Kel-tec Sub 2000 in 9mm and .40. Not a bad bang for the buck at all. It's quite accurate, even at 100 yds, fairly cheap (although more expensive than the Hi-Point) and easy to store or work with. Then there's the Ruger 9mm carbine/rifle. Also a good gun, but again, costs more and the bang for the buck isn't quite as good if you ask me. Now in .44 magnum, the same carbine is just awesome. And finally, if you're willing to pay something in the vicinity of $600, there's the really futuristic looking Beretta CX4 storm. Very modular with all kinds of accessories and other additive capabilities. It will take hi-cap Beretta pistol mags (be sure to see what model of Beretta pistol to be specific) and is an excellent shooter based on all I've heard. As for bullet weights, any of them should be fine in most carbines.

[boomstik45]

To add to my last post, the barrel length of 9mm carbines will probably do somewhat different things for the different bullet weights. The lighter ones like 115gr. will increase in their already high velocity, they'll really be zipping along. Since 147gr. rounds tend to penetrate better than the lighter ones (as far as I know, anyway), you can probably count on increased penetration and greater momentum (which affects penetration).

[boomstik45]

Ooops, silly me. I see that you already have the Hi Point carbine. :o :o

[FlaXD]

There is only one way to settle this once and for all:

Those with 9mm line up on the left. Those with bigger calibers on the right.

Ready.
Aim.
Fire!

[MCgunner]

Jeez, I thought this thread was burried....

[AK103K]

these type threads will NEVER die! :evil:

[Drewrw]

There is only one way to settle this once and for all:

Those with 9mm line up on the left. Those with bigger calibers on the right.

Ready.
Aim.
Fire!


and we're all dead... wow :what:

[Gord]

and we're all dead... wow :what:

Man, you don't plan very far ahead, do you?

I figger the first shot from my mighty Jetfire will blow a hole clean through the six guys beside me, a la the Nazis from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (sorry guys, but you know, "take one for the team" and all); I will simply stack the bodies into a hasty fortification and wait for the smoke to clear.

[RNB65]

9mm handguns have probably killed more people than all other handgun calibers combined, yet there are still some who say it's not adequate for self defense. Huh? :confused:

[chicanorojo]

Well. This thread started on another thread from another forum from a guy who works in a morgue. Being that I live in the border (TX-Mexico), I get to read the Mexican newspapers. Local border newspapers usually have the gory section on crimes. In all my adult years, all the news about a BG snuffing another BG has always been same ammo usage either a 380 auto or 9mm. FWIW, I have never felt I am underarmed with a 9mm gun.

[SniperStraz]

...9mm is not as powerful as a .45 but it will do the job. Especially in JHP:)

[Drewrw]

Man, you don't plan very far ahead, do you?

I figger the first shot from my mighty Jetfire will blow a hole clean through the six guys beside me, a la the Nazis from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (sorry guys, but you know, "take one for the team" and all); I will simply stack the bodies into a hasty fortification and wait for the smoke to clear.



I could shoot him in the toenail with my .45acp and in the process of the BG flipping 36 times, he would take out everyone else in the "puny 9mm round" row.

[kmrcstintn]

why do we always have to debate this stuff over and over?!? if the 9mm can't do it, guess my .38's are on the #&^% list too...guess I gotta give them away and get a big ole' .44 Magnum, .480 Ruger, or a .500 S&W...guess the latter would be the best since it goes really fast and makes a big hole (thru the perpetrator, the wall behind him, into the next house, thru several innocent bystanders, out their house, then the bullet takes a left down the end of the block and destroys several vehicles, and finally falls on the ground from exhaustion) :rolleyes:

[GeorgiaGlocker]

I'll tell you what. Let me unload a magazine from my Glock 19 or 26 with Speer Gold Dot's 124 gr GDHP in anyone's family jewels and then let me read the Doc's report!

[wcwhitey]

Real Life! Not my cousins pool boy story. One particular night in July of 1995 I had the unfortunate duty of escourting an emotionally disturbed person to a local hospital. There was a special room in back of the ER where restrained EDP's are taken. As per protocol I had to unload my weapons prior to entering the room. While in the process of this me and my partner heard blood curdling screems coming from the ER waiting area. We quickly secured the EDP, reloaded and went to investigate. The hospital security was in the process of wrestling with two men and trying to cuff them. It is not uncommon to see blood in an ER but this was more than usual, all the furniture in the place was covered in it. What it turned out to be was these two guys had just shot it out in the streets not more than a couple of blocks from the Hospital. One shot the other with 7 rounds of .45 Ball and the other shot him with 5 rounds of .25 ACP. The both emptied their guns into each other and then ran in seperate directions. Both of them wound up at the ER at the same time, recognized each other and resumed the fight, without guns this time. They were both eventually sedated and removed to surgery. The guns were never recovered, I was told that the guys refused to press charges against each other. They eventually recovered and were free to roam our great land. The thing that always stuck with me being interested in guns was that the guy shot with 7 rounds of .45 was just as able to fight as the guy shot with 5 rounds of .25. Opposite ends of the handgun sprectrum and both ineffective in this case. I have no moral to this story other than to say I came away realizing that one has to hit a vital organ, nerve center or the spinal cord.

[BullfrogKen]

OK. This one's exhausted itself.

No need to dig up that dead horse to beat it anymore.