Maybe the 9mm isn't very effective!

[XDn00b101]

A forensic pathologist, who has worked on several autopsies speaks his experience. Now to all those numbers freaks; seriously, you honestly cannot compare charts off the internet, to real life experiences that came from this guy. Plus, with the majority of law Enforcement ditching the 9x19, it seems to all make sense...


http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/550103904/m/5471026821/p/1

[JesseJames]

I agree with the Doc. Nothing like 00 or 000 buckshot from a 12 gauge to make them regret they were ever born.
Even better are sabot slugs. Instant bad guy ventilation. But there is the obvious risk of over-penetration.

[Gabby Hayes]

Real life experience? The guy only sees corpses, and long after the action is over. I'm just sayin' ... ;)

[Lou629]

In two words: shot placement.

In a dozen words or less: caliber makes no difference, shot placement is everything.

[lurkersince03]

JHP's are a wonderous invention.

[Biker]

Lou...

If caliber makes no difference, I'm guessing that you carry a .25 acp. If not, why not?

Biker

[No_Brakes23]

I am a die-hard .45ACP/1911 guy, but a whole box full of poorly aimed .45ACP can't do what a couple well aimed 9x19mm can. To each his own, (I do prefer .45ACP, after all,) but I wouldn't feel underarmed with a decent pistol chambered in +P JHP 9mm. There is anecdotal evidence of folks surviving .45ACP as well. But that doesn't make THAT round "Not enough gun."

If you are that worried about using enough gun, maybe a Carbon-15 or something chambered in .308 would be better. Folks have defended themselves sucessfully with smaller calibres than parabellum. Just carry what makes you feel comfy, and make sure you get good shot placement.

[Lou629]

A hint as to my favored choice can be found in my sig. line, lol.
When it comes right down to it, it just never really bothered me all that much though, because the first rule of a gunfight is to bring one. When i had my ccw back in PA, i regularly alternated the 9 with a .22. I suppose that had as much to do with my perceived chances of actually needing either of them, which i never did, but either one would be enough.

[Just_a_dude_with_a_gun]

It's cheap, and plenty of folks cease to get up after taking one to the chest.

[Lupinus]

you can argue shot placement all you want but the only place you are guaranteed to have time for a perfect shot is at the range. I want to know my choice will stop the threat or at least slow them enough for a second shot regardless of if I hit them in the heart or in the shoulder. I trust rounds like .357 magnum and .45 ACP to do that. I simply don't trust 9 mm to reliably do that. Is it better then nothing? Most certainly and I wouldn't be above carrying one I'm not a snob. But I will prefer .45 any day over 9 mm. Shot placement is good, but I don't want to have to rely on perfect or near perfect shot placement. I want as large a margin of error as is practical.

[10 Ring Tao]

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about, as he doesn't say anything to the affect of what the title states.

Again, this is from experience that I've made my calls on what works and what doesn't. I have no use for mouse guns like the .32, although it's a lot better to have a mouse gun than nothing at all. Personally, I'll never carry anything smaller than a .40 and prefer the .45. Day in and day out, results from the autopsy table show me that the .45 is the gun to have in a gun fight, provided you can shoot it well. If not, it's better to have something you can shoot well, even if it's a mouse gun, than something you can't.

That said, shoot what you're comfortable with and place your shots well whatever caliber you use.

He prefers .45, but keeps in line with the big picture by saying that caliber doesn't matter anywhere near as much as your ability to make well placed shots with the largest caliber you can handle.

[Demiurge]

9mm is fine, but there are better rounds. I own one for the cheap practice, and I wouldn't be scared if that's all I had to defend myself either.

[Bruce333]

People can debate which caliber is better all they want, but this summed it all up for me: Folks, we can continue this thread until the next millennium and beat around calibers, bullet construction, velocity, muzzle flash, and a zillion other variables. Sooner or later you'll have to make up your mind on what you think works and carry it. When the dust settles and we've made up our minds on what we'll carry, I think we'd see that there won't be a concensus of opinion. The one thing I hope we'd agree on, however, is that the best man-stopper in the world is absolutely useless in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it effectively.

Make every trip to the range count. Learn to shoot effectively; learn to call your shots. Learn how fast and how effectively you can place that second and subsequent shots. For those of you with non-adjustable sights, learn which ammo places your shots closest to the x-ring. Learn proper trigger control and proper sight pictures. Learn how to reload quickly and effectively.

[RNB65]

On the other hand, the U.S. is the handgun murder capitol of the world and the weapon of choice among most thugs is a 9mm. They may not have a lot of instant knockdown power, but they've got plenty of killing power. I'll take a .40 over a 9mm anyday, but don't underestimate a 9 with quality ammo.

[Stevie-Ray]

I prefer my .45s also, but I don't feel undergunned carrying my G26.

[Deer Hunter]

A 9mm is sufficient for dealing with bad guys. Many folks still use .38 Special loads for the baddies (As will I, once I get my CCW). I think a 9mm does a nice job of dealing with two legged threats.

In saying that, I also believe a 10mm/.357/.45 ACP does a better job.

[steelhead]

Deadmeat2 smells of troll.

[critrxdoc]

I have read ad nauseam that caliber choice is irrelevant and shot placement is all that counts. Ok, there is not doubt that shot placement is crucial for any handgun. So we all need to go to the range and practice as much as possible.

Now, please indulge me for a moment. We can all equally hit COM reliably at the range. We are unfortunately faced with a BG who is threating our life with the weapon of your imagination.

In front of you lies a 1) .25auto 2) 9mm 3) .40 or .357sig 4) 45auto or 10mm.

We have all faithfully been to the range and can consistently hit COM at the range with whichever of the above that we carry. Given that only 33% of LEOs hit their targets under catecholamine surge, we can only reasonably expect that we could do no better. So we will likely only get 1 or maybe 2 rounds COM with a 33% hit rate, so the hit(s) have to count.

Which round will you choose?

[Lou629]

Given the choices listed, mine would be the round from the gun i can get the most accurate results from, am most comfortable shooting and which i have had the most experience with. In my case that would be either my BHP or Beretta 92, 9mm's both. At 33% that should give me 5 COM hits with 15 round mags, but i think i could do better than that.

[Geno]

Well, my Daddy bigger 'n' uglier! And so's my momma! Lordy sakes alive fellas. A dead intruder is a dead intruder. Shoot what you will, and be danged accurate with it. What more needs saying?

Next thing you know someone will say Kimber 45s aren't as good as Colt 45s.

That ought to get them going.

Doc2005

[Byron Quick]

Guys, I hate to tell you this but ALL handgun calibers can be ineffective even with good defensive rounds and proper shot placement.

1) If any of y'all wish to visit Sardis, Georgia with me, we can go talk to a man who resisted arrest by a Sardis PD officer. He was getting the upper hand in the scuffle. Bad move. Officer shot him in the face with a .357 from a distance of about two feet. The bullet entered just to the left of dummy's nose heading for the back of his head. Stopped just short of the carotid artery.

2)19 year old female walked into the emergency department where I work. She had been shot by some thug in the same place as the man above. 9mm JHP. About two feet. After being shot, she walked over a half mile to the hospital.


In a dozen words or less: caliber makes no difference, shot placement is everything.

Another man came into the emergency department after being shot from very close range. The bullet knocked his front tooth out and was found by the paramedic where he had been standing. .32 ACP. Care to argue that caliber made no difference to him or that, with a different caliber, that would have been completely proper shot placement?

My Dad's first cousin had a girl friend for about ten years and then things got hinky. She told him not to come around any more. He didn't listen. He drove out to her home and she wouldn't let him in. So he proceeded to break through the screen door. Hester proceeded to shoot him in the sternum with a .38 Special. The scar is right on the nipple line. The bullet exited about an inch from the vertebral column. Jim looked down at the hole in his chest and decided that she had been serious about not wanting to see him, after all. He walked to his car and drove fifteen miles to the hospital where he caused no amount of excitement. NOTHING had been hit in his chest with a perfect COM hit with a JHP...I checked with Hester. Jim's doing fine but he stays home with his wife nowadays.

For primary carry, I'd feel adequate with a .38 Special or larger. If I had to use it for defense, I'd remember All of the reasons repeating handguns were developed. 1) There might be more than one of the scoundrels. 2) You might just miss. 3) Sometimes, there ain't but one, you don't miss, and he don't stop.

I've seen more hits with major calibers and good placement that didn't stop the man shot. I've seen a guy who shot himself in the mouth just before coming out of his house to be arrested by the cops. After three days in jail, he pipes up with,"Oh, by the way, I shot myself in the mouth just before coming out to meet you guys the other day." Jailer looks in his mouth. Big clot in the roof of it. Since it's been three days and they feel it must have a defective bullet, they bring him 38 miles to MCG in Augusta by squad car. He walks into Trauma (he is developing a slight limp). We wheel him up to Radiology where he gets off the gurney and onto the CT table. People, he had fragments of bullet throughout his cranium. Not only was he mobile immediately after being shot with at least a .38 Special in the brain but he was still capable of just about anything he ever was three days later. I've had worse limps from twisting my ankle.

[pdowg881]

If caliber doesn't matter I don't care if a BG shoots me in the chest with a .22 or his 50bmg. It should basically be the same right? I mean, maybe the 50 will sound louder, but since caliber doesn't matter considering damage done, I shouldn't be anymore scared of a guy rollin up on me with his ma duece than with his 22 pistol.

[solive]

He keeps contradicting himself.

I'll take slow and heavy to light and fast any day.

Anyway, the kinetic energy imparted by a bullet as it enters the body depends on two things--the weight of the bullet and the velocity at which it is travelling. Of the two, velocity is more important. Doubling the velocity quadruples the kinetic energy; doubling the bullet weight only doubles

[pdowg881]

Oh wait, are we talking handgun calibers? Gee darnit. 50ae Then. You can say extremely similar calibers depend more on shot placement but in all seriousness if different calibers didn't make any difference we'd all be shooting the same thing.

[sgt127]

Deadmeat2 smells of troll.

He's got one hell of a pedigree for a troll...

[bg226]

In one case, the subject attacked the officer with a knife. The officer shot the individual four times in the chest; then, his weapon malfunctioned. The offender continued to walk toward the officer. After the officer cleared his weapon, he fired again and struck the subject in the chest. Only then did the offender drop the knife. This individual was hit five times with 230-grain, .45-caliber hollow-point ammunition and never fell to the ground. The offender later stated, “The wounds felt like bee stings.”


In another case, officers fired six .40-caliber, hollow-point rounds at a subject who pointed a gun at them. Each of the six rounds hit the individual with no visible effect. The seventh round severed his spinal cord, and the offender fell to the ground, dropping his weapon. This entire firefight was captured by several officers’ in-car video cameras.


In a final case, the subject shot the victim officer in the chest with a handgun and fled. The officer, wearing a bullet-resistant vest, returned gunfire. The officer’s partner observed the incident and also fired at the offender. Subsequent investigation determined that the individual was hit 13 times and, yet, ran several blocks to a gang member’s house. He later said, “I was so scared by all those shots; it sounded like the Fourth of July.” Again, according to the subject, his wounds “only started to hurt when I woke up in the hospital.” The officers had used 9-millimeter, department-issued ammunition. The surviving officers re ported that they felt vulnerable.

Src: http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2004/oct2004/oct04leb.htm#page_15

[MCgunner]

Deadmeat2 smells of troll.

Actually, this thread looked like a troll thread when I read the title. :rolleyes:

I've yet to figure out how to fit a cannon in my pocket, but a 9mm+P does. I get 1260 fps/410 ft lbs out of a pocket sized 3" barrel. That's pretty close to 2" .357 magnum territory. The nine is far more efficient out of a short barrel gun than the .357 and probably a lot more effective for most shooters. The flash/bang/recoil of a pocket .357 is more than most can handle and you DO have to at least HIT the target. A .357 in the neighbor's house is rather worthless. You think the sonic boom is gonna kill him????:rolleyes:

And, considering how close they are in performance, the 9 is much more compact than any .45, pocket size. I haven't seen any pocketable .45s, much less one that'll hold up to 13 rounds. I could go with .40, viable alternative, but I just prefer 9mm in a CCW because I CAN hit with it in a small weapon and I feel it's a little easier on the gun than a .40. Besides, I'm all set up for it, no dies for the .40, and I don't really wanna add any calibers unless it's just irresistible. I already have a .45 and dies, but carry a 9 or alternately a .38 special.

I personally met a man who's shot and killed three people with a 9mm. He owns a chain of convenience stores in Houston and he told me he hates thieves. He's been robbed at gunpoint three times. I don't know what those crooks were carryin', but I'd suggest they don't take this guy on even if armed with a .45-70. He shoots expert in IDPA.

[leadcounsel]

I prefer the .40 for self defense.

That said, I believe the 9x19 is the most sold handgun cartridge sold in the world and is responsible for the most deaths.

[Stainless Chili]

I've SEEN .32ACP bounce off clay sewer pipe, shooting at the town dump.
Then I sold my Tomcat,

But loading 9mm into my USPC9 seems fine, from a defensive point of view.
I have to find a balance between what is enough, and what my wife can also handle.

My 1911 shoots better than all the others, but .40S&W is my preferred cartridge, through the right frame. Again, it's a compromise thing.

The wife has a .22LR revolver, and I'll cover her with my PPK/S until the .223 is in my hands. And then the .308 will visit the fold. I hope I never have to explain why I suppressed a fire-bombing riot [forcible felony] with a battle rifle.

[usp9]

One point to make is that this person is working in a MORGUE, and commenting on DEAD people. I'm not sure what difference dead by .50 BMG, or dead by BB gun makes... dead is dead.

Just another .40 or bigger opinion piece. In a life or death altercation, caliber is the LEAST important factor of all. Hitting a vital organ is what counts...period.

[Lou629]

In these never ending .45 or 9mm vs. every-other-handgun-caliber-in-the-known-universe debates, just as in the any-other-handgun-in-the-known-universe vs. Glock debates, everybody knows what is best for themselves. Every so often i suspect someone will hit this particular hornets' nest with a stick just to see the reactions. We have but ourselves to blame if that is the case.

[pcf]

That guy is the Ironman of medical examiners........8+ autopsies a day, helped ID tsunami victims, searches for cadavers, a ballistics and firearms expert......He should write a book, he'd be a modern day Richard Selzer....

Just because you want something you read to be true, doesn't make it so. Like everything on the internet a healthy dose a skepticism goes a long ways.

[buzz_knox]

A forensic pathologist, who has worked on several autopsies speaks his experience. Now to all those numbers freaks; seriously, you honestly cannot compare charts off the internet, to real life experiences that came from this guy. Plus, with the majority of law Enforcement ditching the 9x19, it seems to all make sense...

A good friend of mine was a pathologist/county coroner. He saw many gunshot victims, and swore by the 9mm.

Relying on one professional's opinion in matters such as this doesn't really count for much, as you'll often find an equally honest, reliable professional with a different opinion because there is a massive amount of subjectivity involved whenever the question is associated with "what's good enough."

[MCgunner]

Hey, I'm a professional. I had a job as a kid at the hospital where my mom worked, night janitor, and saw a guy walk in holding his guts in with his hands, shot point blank with a 12 gauge shotgun and drove himself to the hospital! :eek:

So, in my professional opinion, 12 gauge shotguns are worthless as self defense weapons, can't even kill at point blank range, saw this with my own eyes! :neener:

[cookekdjr]

That guy is the Ironman of medical examiners........8+ autopsies a day, helped ID tsunami victims, searches for cadavers, a ballistics and firearms expert......He should write a book, he'd be a modern day Richard Selzer....

I strongly suspect he works for the GBI state crime lab just outside Atlanta.

[cookekdjr]

Deadmeat2 smells of troll.

I sent him a reply. If he's from Atlanta, and he works in a medical examiners office, I either know him, or, at the very least, we have mutual friends. His ID will be exceeding easy for me to confirm.

-David

[buzz_knox]

Ask him if he ever worked under Pedigo. If he's from Knoxville, he'll understand.

[cookekdjr]

buzz,
sent you a pm.

[Dravur]

My Carry Gun;

It's an .88 Magnum.... It shoots through Schools....

My Mother hung me on a hook once... Once!

Haven't seen this movie in a long time, so if the quotes are not exact... Welll, Excuuuuseee meeeeee!

[GeorgiaGlocker]

Let me unload a full magazine from my Glock 19 at his family jewels with Speer Gold Dots 124 gr JHP and then let me read his report!

[Biker]

For those who claim that shot placement is *all* that counts, why not carry a .25 apc?

It has plenty of penetration...

Biker:)

[gopguy]

In two words: shot placement.

Ditto that. Shot placement is everything.;)

For those who claim that shot placement is *all* that counts, why not carry a .25 apc?

Biker, you know better. You also need a reasonable amount of power decent sights etc. Not all shots are taken at 5 yards. Besides my wife is a doctor and I well remember when we were first married back in the 80s when she was in residency a weird story she told me. A prostitute came in to the hospital where the wife worked in Washington DC,with several .25 slugs under her scalp. A john did not want to pay up....shot her. The .25 did not penetrate the skull in this case. A 9mm parabellum probably would have. Of course had he shot her in the eyes or up the nose....

[critrxdoc]

With all due respect to Mr Moderator and the group, we have all heard and some of us have personally seen due to our occupation (even some at MCG!) the anecdotal lack of performance of almost any handgun caliber. Everyone gets lucky sometimes. But given the same shot placement, I believe deep down whether we all will admit or not, when the chips are down, we want the most kinetic energy possible to be dumped into the target. The only point that I am trying to make is that we should shoot the largest caliber we can shoot quickly, accurately, and consistently. Any bullet in any caliber can fail, but it seems to me that we should give ourselves the best % chance of success. For some shooters that may be a .38spec or 9mm, for others a .45 or 10mm. I am just concerned that the message to new shooters that all calibers are equal and if you shoot the 9mm just fine, than that is all you need. JMHO

[Deer Hunter]

I believe the movie is called "The man with one red shoe", correct?

Fantastic movie, very very funny. :)

A 9mm is fine with a good HP and nice shot placement. However, all pistol rounds are usually inadequate when it comes to stopping power.

[Biker]

Just a bit of hyperbole on my part. My point is, all things being equal, a bigger bullet makes a bigger hole which increases your chances of doing greater damage which increases your chances of winning. I don't understand how this can be argued against.

Biker:)

[lurkersince03]

I think this thread needs some preventative maintenance.

[BullfrogKen]

critrxdoc said: Given that only 33% of LEOs hit their targets under catecholamine surge, we can only reasonably expect that we could do no better.

I'd disagree with that assumption. Peace officers do not represent the epidomy of gun handling and marksmanship. But let's not veer from the topic.


Handguns are marginally effective at best. All of them. Any reasonable caliber we would carry.

Even the 9x23 I carry, the .45, the 10mm. All of them. I'd feel just fine with a 9mm. In fact, I carry my 9x23 with the convertible 9mm barrel and 9mms from time to time. I realize I get an edge with 9x23, it is a little more powerful. But, frankly, the reason I like it, is the muzzle blast gives considerable more concussion and noise. It takes considerably more will to stand in front of those when they go off, and bystanders accustomed regular gunfire growing up in such environments aren't as willing to stick around when magnum calibers touch off.

[gopguy]

Just a bit of hyperbole on my part. I figured it was.;)


It's an .88 Magnum.... It shoots through Schools....

My Mother hung me on a hook once... Once!

Actually it was Joe Piscapo in "Johnny Dangerously" I don't know why I remember that but I do....Just don't ask me what I watched last night.....:rolleyes: Too many senior moments these days...:banghead:

[MCgunner]

With all due respect to Mr Moderator and the group, we have all heard and some of us have personally seen due to our occupation (even some at MCG!) the anecdotal lack of performance of almost any handgun caliber. Everyone gets lucky sometimes. But given the same shot placement, I believe deep down whether we all will admit or not, when the chips are down, we want the most kinetic energy possible to be dumped into the target. The only point that I am trying to make is that we should shoot the largest caliber we can shoot quickly, accurately, and consistently. Any bullet in any caliber can fail, but it seems to me that we should give ourselves the best % chance of success. For some shooters that may be a .38spec or 9mm, for others a .45 or 10mm. I am just concerned that the message to new shooters that all calibers are equal and if you shoot the 9mm just fine, than that is all you need. JMHO

You neglect the needs of proper concealment to meet the letter of the law and the needs of the armed citizen. A subcompact 9 happens to be the smallest, lightest service caliber pistol available. The .357 mag in a 2" is little more powerful than the 410 ft lbs I get from a P11 using +P. It fits in a large pocket and weighs 14 ounces unloaded, which means I will have it with me when the SHTF. My 35 ounce K frame sized .357 mag and my P90 will be at home in the safe in all likelihood.

Just a bit of hyperbole on my part. My point is, all things being equal, a bigger bullet makes a bigger hole which increases your chances of doing greater damage which increases your chances of winning. I don't understand how this can be argued against.

Okay, I'll attempt to go over it again. That .45 caliber pill is .451" in diameter. A 9mm is .355" in diameter. That means that the radius of the .45 is but 0.048" larger than the 9mm. So, if your bullet placement is .048" away from the heart further than your 9mm can reach, your .45 will knick the flesh of the heart???? :rolleyes: IOW, if you believe that energy means nothing, only the diameter of the bullet, you are allowed .048" or approximately 5/100 inch more error in your aim. :rolleyes: No, bullet diameter means diddly squat.

I do happen to believe energy is important, at the risk of starting another terminal ballistics argument. The old adage of 1000 ft lbs on target minimum for deer hunting is a good rule of thumb. Humans aren't a heck of a lot easier to kill than a deer, both thin skinned. That should give you a good idea of the lack of horsepower of most handgun loads in self defense scenarios, the .45 included. Even .44 mags don't break that 1000 ft lbs by much AT THE MUZZLE! Yes, bullet placement is the most important thing without a doubt. Heck, it's important in deer hunting, just that the deer ain't shootin' back! You can blood trail a deer if you have to. In a fight, you wanna stop the guy ASAP. That's real hard to do with a handgun of any caliber, but most of the major calibers from .38 up have pretty close to the same punch. One ain't a whole lot more effective than another. So, puttin' 'em where they'll count becomes all important and it don't matter what you think does the killin', energy or diameter or momentum, or whatever. In the end, weak as handgun calibers are, it all comes down to shot placement. You do, however, need a major caliber, .38 or larger. Messing around with mouse calibers that make less than 100 ft lbs is not wise. Even if you're a momentum guy, you can see my point here.

[lurkersince03]

Definitely some preventative maintenance.

[MCgunner]

Actually it was Joe Piscapo in "Johnny Dangerously" I don't know why I remember that but I do....Just don't ask me what I watched last night..... Too many senior moments these days...

WHAT! :what: You missed "Broken Trail"??? Wow, you need to catch a repeat on that one, GREAT WESTERN!

[Gary in Pennsylvania]

What would be fun is if we could invite "Guest Moderators" onto THR.

You haven't seen fun until you've seen Parabellum from Sigforum toy with his prey before nuking the troll from existence!

Sometimes it's soooo inevitable that members sort of wait around and watch like in a Roman Coliseum or something!

[LightningJoe]

I think there is a basic problem with trying to analyze the effectiveness of handgun calibers. I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding about how handguns work. My hypothesis is that a handgun's main source of effectiveness is its reputation as a weapon capable of inflicting mortal injuries. I further hypothesize that the handgun has two principal incapacitation mechanisms: fear and demoralization. People fear handguns and are demoralized by injuries inflicted by handguns. Without serendipitous shot placement (brainstem, upper spine), handgun cartridges never produce immediate, mechanical incapacitation. In an encounter in which a handgun is used for self-defense, one's opponent is either stopped by fear or demoralization or he will fight until he bleeds to death (which could take hours or might never occur). More severe injuries are probably more likely to produce demoralization, so more caliber is probably better, but none is very good against an opponent who is not afraid of your gun and not demoralized by injury.

[sgt127]

Let me unload a full magazine from my Glock 19 at his family jewels with Speer Gold Dots 124 gr JHP and then let me read his report!
__________________
Bersa Thunder .380
Glock 19 3rd Gen

The 10 most terrifying words in the English language " I'm with the Government and I am here to help".--Ronald Reagan

Wow. I guess that ends that debate. Sigh

[cookekdjr]

I think there is a basic problem with trying to analyze the effectiveness of handgun calibers. I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding about how handguns work. My hypothesis is that a handgun's main source of effectiveness is its reputation as a weapon capable of inflicting mortal injuries. I further hypothesize that the handgun has two principal incapacitation mechanisms: fear and demoralization. People fear handguns and are demoralized by injuries inflicted by handguns. Without serendipitous shot placement (brainstem, upper spine), handgun cartridges never produce immediate, mechanical incapacitation. In an encounter in which a handgun is used for self-defense, one's opponent is either stopped by fear or demoralization or he will fight until he bleeds to death (which could take hours or might never occur). More severe injuries are probably more likely to produce demoralization, so more caliber is probably better, but none is very good against an opponent who is not afraid of your gun and not demoralized by injury.

Hi Joe. Actually, I've seen the results of quite a few gun battles. Demoralization isn't really a factor. Really, several times the results were determined by a true "caliber war". I have had a number of mutual combat cases where two gangbangers had a duel (for want of a better term). There were many times when the guy with the 9mm lost and the guy with the .40/.45 won. By the way, I have never had a case where the guy with the 9mm killed the guy with the .40/.45. (I'm not knocking the 9mm, I carry one with 147gr loads b/c I've found that load to be effective and I can shoot it accurately; I'm just reporting the results).
-David

[Lou629]

I have had a number of mutual combat cases where two gangbangers had a duel (for want of a better term). There were many times when the guy with the 9mm lost and the guy with the .40/.45 won. By the way, I have never had a case where the guy with the 9mm killed the guy with the .40/.45.

My take on that is that the guys with the .40+ guns must have been better at shot placement. :evil: If both were equal in shooting skills, then it likely came down to which one was faster at it, not who had the bigger caliber.

[LightningJoe]

Cookekdjr:

"Demoralization isn't really a factor."


Well, I've been wrong before. But I have difficulty coming up with an explanation for all the data. It certainly sounds like there's a lot of noise obscuring the real data, that is, it's a lot easier to disprove any physiologically-based theory of handgun effectiveness than it is to prove any of them. Looking at the physiology of handgun effectiveness, the data (a whole bunch of anecdotes) seems to point pretty convincingly in every possible, mutually-exclusive direction. This leads me to conclude that handgun effectiveness isn't mainly physiologically-based--that it's mainly psychological. With that hypothesis, all the anecdotes almost start to fit together. A lot of people seem to ignore handgun wounds that totally incapacitate other people. The handgun cartridge (at least in the short term) is like voo-doo--it only works on you if you believe in it, which most of us do; we either run away, surrender, or lie on the ground when we are hit, incapacitated by demoralization. There is also fear, the incapacitation mechanism which I think ends most self-defense encounters involving a handgun. Handguns seem to work pretty well even when no one gets hit. My conclusion (tentative, I'll concede) is that the handgun's effectiveness is largely based on reputation.

[Roadwild17]

Balh blah blah, lets just make a round with the power of a 155 howitzer and this argument would be over, the new argument would then be "would you shoot or pistol whip":evil:

[pdowg881]

pistol whip.

[Checkman]

I've been a cop for six years now in a city of approximately 40,000 people. I've seen dead people shot with 25 acp, 9mm, 40 caliber, 45 acp and a 410 slug. No my city is not in the midst of a murder epidemic. We're pretty much like any other moderate sized town with a gang and Meth problem. Which is the entire country anymore.:rolleyes:

I've also seen people killed with a rubber strap (strangulation),from being kicked in the head and bleeding out and of course with a knife. Several years ago we had a murder in which the victim had his jacket sleeve caught in the driver door. His girlfriend was mad at him and she dragged him several miles at over 55 miles per hour before she stopped. There wasn't much left of him from below the waist when she stopped. I know I've seen the photos. He was very dead.

I believe she was driving a 1972 Impala. Wonder how that rates on the Taylor scale. :neener:

Anyhow my point is many things will kill you very dead and very effectively. In the very near future I'm switiching over to the Glock 19. Of course I'll have a G26 and a Remington 870 shotgun for additional firepower and my radio to call for other cops. Many of whom carry the G21. Nevertheless I don't feel underarmed.Just me I guess.

[Marshall]

I have no doubt any and all can kill. However, if I going to rely on a cartridge for defending myself and my family, it's going to something above 9mm the vast majority of the time. Yea, I carry my BHP in 9mm sometimes but I feel much better with my .40 S&W, .357 Mag, .44 Mag, 45 ACP or .45 Colt cartridges.

My neighbor, an older man now, had taken a 9mm and 45ACP in the shoulder. He told me of the the time he was hit with the 9mm, he said it felt like a bee sting. Months later when he was hit with the 45ACP he said he almost passed out from shock. He said it was disabling to him even though it wasn't a vital shot. He reaffirmed my thoughts of "defend with all you reasonably can and still shoot well being comfortable". If I ever half to use any of my guns to defend with, I hope it happens the 99% of the time I am carrying something with more guts than my 9mm's or .380.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I have no doubt my 9mm Hydra Shok's would ruin someones day but hey, I'll take the best odds I can reasonably get.

:)

[sgt127]

To sum up a good friend of mines theory of stopping power: Poke a hole. Poke the biggest hole you can. Poke it all the way through.

[Zaire]

So he says he sees more 9mm's and .380's than anything else on the AUTOPSY TABLE, and states they are not effective?

[KIMBER45TLE]

Back in my rookie days my partner fired six 158 grain HP's into a 6'3" assailant. All six shots hit inside a three inch group in the sternim at a distance from the back of a bus to the door. Assailant never fell down. It took one more round of 12 gauge buck shot to level him. I won't own or carry anything that doesn't have at least a 4 in the first digit of the caliber.

[cookekdjr]

The handgun cartridge (at least in the short term) is like voo-doo--it only works on you if you believe in it

Hi Joe. They may be the case with some folks. But, respectfully, that's not what stops people. The big three (.40/.45/.357) cause spectacular wounds. Sometimes the best 9mm can cause similar wounds. Its not fear or demoralization that stops folks. Its shattered bones and rapid blood loss that cause disabling handgun wounds.
Please keep in mind I am not starting a caliber war. I myself carry a Glock 19 because I shoot it better than anything else. I carry either a subsonic 147gr load that performs almost as well as the .40 call loads or a +p+ 115 or 124 gr load that's pretty close to .357 SIG or personal defense .357 mag loads. If I shot the Glock 23 as well as the 19, though, I'd switch in a heartbeat.

[cookekdjr]

In the very near future I'm switiching over to the Glock 19. Of course I'll have a G26 and a Remington 870 shotgun for additional firepower and my radio to call for other cops. Many of whom carry the G21. Nevertheless I don't feel underarmed.Just me I guess.
Checkman,
I suggest (based on experience):

1. Any 147gr personal defense load. I think the Federal loads penetrate windshields the best, but other than that they all perform well.
2. With any lighter slug, use a +p+ load like the 127gr(?) Ranger or the Federal 115gr round at 1300 fps. The Federal is very accurate and had zero recoil in my G19.

The FBI in my area swears by 147gr hydroshocks for shooting through cars and still getting the badguys. The Rangers do not expand at all but are very effective on people. I have seen the results first hand. Deadly.
Good luck and be safe.

[robertbank]

67 posts, now 68 on one cartridge that is .097 bigger than the other. Neither the .45acp or the 9MM is a death ray. Misses with either are misses. Neither cartridge is going to disappear anytime soon. Both have been around a long time, the 9MM being the older of the two, and both have worked rather well in combat, as much of a role as a pistol plays in any event. So what does it matter?

If you think you are better armed with a .45acp good on you, the guy who feels the same way about his 9MM is no less armed, just armed with a handgun of another caliber.

Humans only die from gun shot wounds by either bleeding to death or disruption of the nervous system. Both cartridges are as capable as the other. Just depends on what they hit during their passage through the target. If you are a believer in stats then carry a knife. Knife attacks I am told are more lethal than gun attacks statistically.

Take Care

Bob

[KIMBER45TLE]

The 9mm "might" expand, but the 45 sure as hell ain't going to shrink.

[JohnKSa]

Deadmeat2 smells of troll.I must say that I was EXTREMELY surprised to see a person claiming to be a medical professional stating that temporary cavity would do damage to veins and arteries.

Blood vessels are impressively elastic. It is universally accepted that temporary cavity has little or no effect on elastic tissue.

[MachIVshooter]

If caliber and muzzle energy meant nothing, the DOW would not set minimums. They would just tell you to shoot straight. Here in CO, the minimum for handguns is 550 ft/lbs at 50 yards. Since deer and antelope are similarly sized and of similar construction to humans, this gives a fairly good guideline. Of course, the smallest rounds that will achieve this are .357 and 10mm fired from 5-6" guns with max loads, so this is not very practical from a CCW standpoint. Additionally, many folks cannot shoot such guns/loads effectively. But the logic remains, and for this reason one should definitely be carrying the most effective caliber they can handle. If a 9mm is it, then go for it. But with the number of micro-sized guns on the market these days, there are plenty of options in more potent chamberings. .45's exist today that are smaller than most .380's were ten years ago. There are a couple of 10mm's that are small enough to carry quite comfortably. .357's that weigh only 12 ounces are a handful, but certainly offer dynamite in a small package.

So, once again, it really comes down to the same wisdom that has been circulating for a long time. Carry the largest caliber you can handle. My wife hates wheelguns and cannot handle the recoil of a compact .40 or .45 one-hhanded (she limp-wrists and gets jams),so she carries a 9mm. I have no problem with the recoil of any production handgun, so the Witness 10mm compact goes with me. Whatever works.

[BluesBear]

So he says he sees more 9mm's and .380's than anything else on the AUTOPSY TABLE, and states they are not effective?
In self-defense the goal is to STOP the attack. By whatever means.
Death of the attacker is just a side benefit.


For example, let's say

1) You are attacked by a tweaker high on Meth
2) You shoot your attacker twice with a (insert your CCW caliber here)
3) Your shots do not immediately stop the attacker
4) He shoots you three times in the lower body with a cheap 22 loaded with hollow points
5) You fall down from shock
6) He falls down from blood loss
7) He dies several hours later on the operating table.
8) You lose half of your stomach and part of your intestines.

Do you consider this a good outcome?
After all the bad guy died and you survived.

That's why stopping power is very different from killing power.
A hunter relies on killing power.
A victim depends on stopping power.

[LightningJoe]

There doesn't appear to be a whole lot of science available in the matter of handgun cartridges stopping attackers. There are just lots of anecdotes. The only thing I've been able to come up with that makes the anecdotes fit together is that wounds inflicted by handgun cartridges rarely or never mechanically incapacitate anybody in less time than it takes to empty a magazine, reload, empty another magazine, whip out a Bowie knife, cross the room, inflict dozens of stab wounds, jump out the window, and run down the block. Consequently, I conclude that the mechanical effects of wounds inflicted by handgun cartridges do not often prevent dangerous attackers from causing as much damage as they want to cause before they bleed to death. And yet, there are lots of anecdotes and estimates about handguns stopping and preventing attacks. How to reconcile this? Not sure. But dangerous attackers are acting on some impulse or other. Murder is, I suspect, rarely a carefully reasoned act. I think that rational calculations about personal benefit rarely motivate the violent criminal. Criminal violence is symptomatic of some psychological pathology, some irrational, pathological impulse. From a psychological point of view, people are covered with buttons and they do things to some extent based on how their buttons are pushed. When some violent criminal gets into a state where he feels like harming you is going to make him king of the world and you whip out a handgun and put a JHP through his isles of langerhans, he might not be mechanically incapacitated, but you would have pushed some of his buttons which might alter his mood. The injury, the percieved increased difficulty of carrying out his attack, and the danger of additional injury may demoralize him.

If, on the other hand, your attacker is in a state where he can't be demoralized, then you're going to need a shot to the top third of his head and maybe more than one. Anything that penetrates the skull and gives good penetration will work about as well and anything else through the forehead.

That's my theory. Might not be right, but it's hard to disprove. Just like everybody else's theory.

The idea that anything that starts with a 4 is a great stopper, but anything smaller isn't might be true, but think about what that would imply. There would have to be a very significant nonlinearity in the response of attackers to the caliber of projectiles inflicting injuries. .22 through .355 won't do a lot; attackers eat those bullets like candy. Then a rather small increment in bullet diameter from .355 to .4 corresponds to a large change in the response of an attacker. Now he doesn't just bleed a bit more--he can't even pull the trigger again! How to explain such a nonlinearity in the relation between projectile diameter and effectiveness? Such a nonlinearity might exist, but it would need to be investigated and documented before I could beleve in it.

[cookekdjr]

Then a rather small increment in bullet diameter from .355 to .4 corresponds to a large change in the response of an attacker. Now he doesn't just bleed a bit more--he can't even pull the trigger again! How to explain such a nonlinearity in the relation between projectile diameter and effectiveness? Such a nonlinearity might exist, but it would need to be investigated and documented before I could beleve in it.

Its not the difference in bullet diameter that does it. Its the ability of a given projectile to inflict damage to human bone and flesh. Typically, at handgun velocities, bullet weight is a huge factor in a round's ability to shatter bone and cause tissue damage. That's why the "4" calibers do better. Their bullets are heavier. The bad guys go down because, when the bullet strikes their bones, the bones shatter to pieces instead of glancing/ricocheting (like it normally does with smaller calibers). It helps that the diameter is larger, but that is a much smaller benefit. Shattered bones means more corresponding tissue damage (both from deeper penetration, because the bullet passes through the bone and keeps on going, and from the "bone shrapnel").
The .357 acheives its level of destruction via a much higher level of velocity than typcial 9mm loads, and/or with heavier bullet weights. (EX 158gr bullet at 1250-1400 fps, or 125gr bullet at 1450 fps). Note that the 158gr .357 bullet velocities are very similar to the .40 cal 155gr loads, and that their level of performance on the street is near identical.
Look, I've seen more people walk away from 9mm wounds than I can count. Hundreds. I have never had a case, in 10 years, of anyone walking away from a .40, .45, or .357. They were all disabled or died. This is over a ten year period of dealing with gunshot wounds almost every day. (Remember though, 9mm performance varies widely based on load; it can mimic .380 or .357 SIG).
As for the smaller rounds like the .22/.25/.380...They have only killed someone in my cases where the victim suffered one unlucky shot (like under the armpit and into the heart, or one shot in the head) or they were shot over 20 times (Yes, I do mean 20; I had a case where a man shot his brother over 20 times with a .22 revolver. I lost count of the times he reloaded. It was a six shot NEF).

[SteveS]

The 9mm "might" expand, but the 45 sure as hell ain't going to shrink.

I am surprised that this thread went 3 pages before someone dug out this tired, old saying. It adds so much to the discussion.

I've gone round and round on this topic. Just when I am convinced of one position, a credible source causes me to re-think it. I guess I will continue to be very picky about the load in whatever I am carrying.

[Biker]

Any street results from the cor bon 40SW 135gr load? As I recall, it screams out at about 1350 fps.

Biker

[cookekdjr]

Hi Biker. I have not seen any results from this round. I would only be guessing how it would perform.
Sorry.
-D

[Biker]

I normally carry the heaviest bullets available in my 4pluses;) , but I've considered the cor bon 135 gr load. It looks promising. Unlike women, I prefer big, fat and heavy in my bullets.

Biker

[jamz]

You forgot "slow"


;)



jamz likes .38 and .45 but doesn't feel unarmed with 9mm hp

[LightningJoe]

Cookekdjr:


OK. Since your data is so unambiguous, why is there debate? Is everyone else just ignorant? That's conceivable, I guess. If you documented all this, then write a paper. Col Cooper will sign off on it, I suspect (if you leave out the part about the .40 S&W which everybody knows is a "goofy" cartridge). I would genuinely prefer that it were so simple. Maybe it is. Write your paper and the rest of us can stop pointlessly discussing the subject.

[orionengnr]

My observation/question was:

Eight autopsies per day? Just shy of three thousand per year? Do the math. How many people die of GSW in all of the USA each year, let alone Georgia?

Someone later in the thread posted a link to some CDC mortality data, and I'll simply leave it at this--the numbers don't add up.

Of course, everyone pretty much ignored that...:rolleyes:

[Oleg Volk]

DO all autopsies result from violent demises?

[buzz_knox]

DO all autopsies result from violent demises?

The rule of thumb is no. Autopsies are called for if someone dies of unknown or unattributable causes (i.e. not being treated for a potentially lethal condition or is not elderly). If a doctor or the treating physician can reasonably determine the cause of death without an autopsy, then it may not be performed.

[cookekdjr]

Cookekdjr:


OK. Since your data is so unambiguous, why is there debate? Is everyone else just ignorant? That's conceivable, I guess. If you documented all this, then write a paper. Col Cooper will sign off on it, I suspect (if you leave out the part about the .40 S&W which everybody knows is a "goofy" cartridge). I would genuinely prefer that it were so simple. Maybe it is. Write your paper and the rest of us can stop pointlessly discussing the subject.

Why the debate? Well it doesn't sell much ammo for CCI to admit most 9mm ammo is ineffective. And the 9mm is here to stay, thanks to NATO.
I'm not a writer. I'm a prosecutor who spends too much time on the internet when he's put on hold. :) And I thought some folks might like to share the benefit of my observations.
Now back to work. I've got some trials coming up.
-David

[Dravur]

<Quote> I've been a cop for six years now in a city of approximately 40,000 people. I've seen dead people shot with 25 acp, 9mm, 40 caliber, 45 acp and a 410 slug </Quote>

Wow, someone REALLY didn't like this person.....

[cookekdjr]

I posted on that thread pretty early on.


My observation/question was:

Eight autopsies per day? Just shy of three thousand per year? Do the math. How many people die of GSW in all of the USA each year, let alone Georgia?

Someone later in the thread posted a link to some CDC mortality data, and I'll simply leave it at this--the numbers don't add up.

Of course, everyone pretty much ignored that...

orionengnr,

I don't know the exact numbers, but Atlanta (city limits, less than a tenth of the metro area) averages about 180 "official" homicides a year. Most are by gunshot. The thing is, many killings are not reported a homicides. The police are the ones who categorize them, and lets just say the brass has an interest in under-reporting them or categorizing them as something else.
There are several ME's offices in or just outside Atlanta. One is the GBI's, and they handle homicides from all over the state. Its very possible that they have over a thousand homicides a year (this is my off-the-cuff estimate; i could probably call a source and find out the exact number).
Anyway, Deadmeat2 is out of town this week according to a post at the S&W forum. I left him a message to e-mail me. When he gets back, I can verify his ID, facts and figures really easily.
-David

[JohnKSa]

Total gun deaths for the nation are in the neighborhood of 30,000. That includes accidents, suicides, homicides, you name it.

If you believe his numbers, he's seeing around 10% of ALL gun deaths in the nation.

Well, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. He doesn't actually come right out and say that ALL of his autopsies are gun deaths.

In 2003, there were 6,071 deaths (http://www.fedstats.gov/qf/states/13/13121.html) in ALL of Fulton County GA (the county encompassing Atlanta). But not every death results in an autopsy--in fact, about 80% do not (http://www.medem.com/MedLB/article_detaillb.cfm?article_ID=ZZZPIEJD81D&sub_cat=385). That would mean roughly 1200 autopsies were done in all of Fulton County in 2003. This guy claims to do well over 2,000 in a year--about twice the total autopsies one would expect for the entire county.

Seems a stretch to me.

That and the fact (which I mentioned earlier) that he directly contradicts the nearly universally accepted fact that elastic tissue such as blood vessels are not damaged by temporary cavity.

[sgt127]

Any street results from the cor bon 40SW 135gr load? As I recall, it screams out at about 1350 fps.

Biker


We issued that round for awhile. Worked pretty well on dogs. Worked well on unprotected targets. Had an Officer involved shooting. 16 rounds through the windshield of a van. Not a single round went through intact. The bad guy was peppered with chunks, fatally. There were pieces of the jacket stuck in the windshield. We went with the 180 GR Gold Dot after that. If you don't know what kind of barrier you MIGHT have to shoot through, I don't think the 135 is the best choice.

[Biker]

Thanks for the info, sgt127. I've been carrying Fed 180gr HydroShoks since I bought my G23 in the early 90s. I've always favored heavy bullets but that 135gr beast sounded promising.
Guess I'll stay with the ol' tried and true.

Biker

[gbran]

If it's all about shot placement........... why not carry a .17 caliber.

[MachIVshooter]

If it's all about shot placement........... why not carry a .17 caliber.

well, my .17 Rem. pushes 25 grain pills right at 4,200 FPS. I'd trust that to get the job done;)

[Biker]

I'm with gbran. Why not? Shot placement, right?

Think I'll stay with big bullets since I can't always perfectly place my shots.:)

Biker

[Srigs]

Deadmeat2 main point is if the bullet does not go in deep enought or bounces off of bone and misses heart or lung or spine the guy will require more hits. What he has saw was 40 and 45 cal bullets weight more and go deeper into the BG. This is generally a very good thing IMHO. ;)

I carry both 9 and 40 cal guns depending on the needs. Good deep hits count!

[StrikeFire83]

I always find these threads funny. "My caliber can beat your caliber in fight." :neener:

My father served in Nicaragua during the early years of the Sandinista government. His sidearm was a Browning Hi-Power. He cannot and does not discuss much of what happened there, and in most of the engagements he relied on an M16. Anybody who’s been in combat would tell you that a long gun IS the weapon to use if at all possible.

That said, the people he had cause to shoot with his Browning are still just as dead from the plane jane 9mm FMJ rounds now as they were 20 years ago. He’s said that it is always best to follow up COM shots with a headshot if you can.

I don’t feel unarmed with my Kahr K9. But maybe that’s just me.

[Checkman]

Dravur

Checkman--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<Quote> I've been a cop for six years now in a city of approximately 40,000 people. I've seen dead people shot with 25 acp, 9mm, 40 caliber, 45 acp and a 410 slug </Quote>

Wow, someone REALLY didn't like this person.....

Hahaha.:D

Okay you got me. I've seen different people killed by those various calibers.

In the case of the 9mm victim it was a FMJ 115 grain Wolf round. Entered at the base of his spine, traveled all the way up his back and stopped by his heart. It never struck any bone and he died from fluid around his heart. The coroner told me that basically his heart was crushed by the fluid build-up. I'm not a doctor so I'll take her work for it.

[cookekdjr]

Total gun deaths for the nation are in the neighborhood of 30,000. That includes accidents, suicides, homicides, you name it.

If you believe his numbers, he's seeing around 10% of ALL gun deaths in the nation.

Well, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. He doesn't actually come right out and say that ALL of his autopsies are gun deaths.

In 2003, there were 6,071 deaths in ALL of Fulton County GA (the county encompassing Atlanta). But not every death results in an autopsy--in fact, about 80% do not. That would mean roughly 1200 autopsies were done in all of Fulton County in 2003. This guy claims to do well over 2,000 in a year--about twice the total autopsies one would expect for the entire county.

Seems a stretch to me.

That and the fact (which I mentioned earlier) that he directly contradicts the nearly universally accepted fact that elastic tissue such as blood vessels are not damaged by temporary cavity.

John, if what I suspect about Deadmeat2 is correct, he works for the GBI lab. The GBI lab conducts autopsies for homicides for all over the state of Georgia, with the exception of certain areas of metro Atlanta. Fulton County homicides do not go there for autopsies. Fulton's homicides go to the Fulton County ME's office, which is where I viewed the autopsies I saw. Most of the time I viewed them by slideshow (they were switching from photo-slides to disc); the prosecutor usually views the photos of the autopsy with the doctor (ME) who conducted the autopsy. The average autopsy has about 100 photos, but sometimes there are more or less. I've had as few as 30-40, as many as 300 or close to it.
With regard to 8 autopsies a day, there is just no way that is correct. It may seem like 8 a day, but if you actually start counting, it just isn't the right number. However, a couple years ago, the GBI had a huge case where hundreds, and I do mean hundreds, of bodies were discovered in North West Georgia. This could have raised the GBI's average to about 8 a day, so in that sense it is is possible the average was raised to 8 a day for many months.
About the temporal cavity, that's a hard one. I've seen alot of gunshot wounds, but I need a doctor to tell me what is what alot of the time, and that's after seeing autopsies week after week for years. I'm just not gonna touch that one.
My best guess is, Deadmeat2 is for real, but he over-estimated the number of autopsies. I could be wrong.
By the way, good eye on the numbers. They did not make sense to me either.
-David

[Yooper]

Terms like "stopping power" might be better applied to the target than the projectile, that is, the ability of the target to stop the bullet. Once the bullet leaves the barrel, it's all up to the target what happens next.

Velocity translates into time, the time necessary to bring the bullet to zero velocity. The faster the bullet travels, the longer it will take to "stop" it completely, given identical, non-expanding projectiles. In the case of expanding projectiles, the bullet is designed for a given velocity beyond which the penetration can be decreased with increasing velocity.

Mass also affects penetration, for identical velocities, the more massive bullet should penetrate further. The depth of target mass should reflect its ability to stop a bullet of a given mass.

I wish there were more in the way of definitive tests to put "power" into the proper perspective, a "method to the madness" rather than a "madness to the method".

[Supertac45]

Got to agree with Yooper on this.

[tantrix]

I agree that in firearms, some cartridges perform better than others...marginally.

With handguns, unless you are packing a .44 Magnum, you aren't carrying a handcannon. 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, 10mm, I own guns in all those calibers but I carry a G19 stoked with 15+1 Federal 147gr HST ammo. Why? Because I shoot over 300 rounds a week sometimes more through this G19. Since you are only as potent as your training, not your caliber, I know for a fact I am much more dangerous carrying my G19 in 9mm than my .40's, .45's or 10mm's.

The .22 has killed just as many people as the 9mm or any other caliber in street shootings, so saying a caliber is too "weak" to stop somebody is an idiotic statement coming from anyone...we all know better.

A crackhead pulls a gun on you during an attempted mugging, you pull your weapon and you shoot him 3 times in the chest with your .45ACP or whatever caliber...while stumbling backwards, he get off 1 shot and catches you in the head with his el cheapo .22 auto...you can almost bet you will be the one in the morgue and he could very well survive your 3 shots to his chest. It's happened before, many times.

I don't care WHAT caliber people carry, you have to train with it or it means nothing. If you can shoot one caliber or model handgun better than the other, you need to carry the one you're best with. In the end, thats what is going to save you.

[albanian]

I trust and carry 9mms because I have tested fro myself what they can do compared to .40s&w and .45acp. After doing my own tests, I am fine with a 9mm because I don't see either the .40 or the .45 really giving me anything more. The .45 has it's advantages but it also has it's drawback, same goes with the 9mm. The .40 is the best middel of the road caliber but the problem is, I don't like .40s. I don't like the extra recoil or expense and I don't think it gives me anything that I can't get with the 9mm or the .45acp.

If I really had my choice, I would take a .45 that was as fast as a .357mag and would expand to 1" everytime. I would also like it to cost the same as 9mm ammo and not have any more recoil that 9mm either. As you can see, I am joking, we must all make our choice depending on what we feel we need and what works for us.

I know I can put two 9mms into a target about as fast as one .45acp. I practice double taps because I know the 9mm is not a 12ga. If I carried a .45acp, I would do double taps as well.

[Biker]

With enough practice, one can double tap a .45acp as fast and as accurately as a nine and the holes are bigger. That's just a fact...

Biker

[tantrix]

With enough practice, one can double tap a .45acp as fast and as accurately as a nine and the holes are bigger. That's just a fact...

Biker

And still doesn't mean anything because the holes aren't that much bigger...not to mention bigger holes don't kill people, shots to the right places kill people. If you are counting on bigger holes to kill anything you need to move up to a .500 S&W Magnum.

I'm not sure what ammo everyone else is looking at, but I have a 9mm, a .40, and a .45ACP round all sitting on my desk right now side by side and they are all small. :D

[JohnKSa]

cookekdjr,

I think it's not possible to be that generous to him. He's very specific about the autopsies per day number. He doesn't just say 8 a day, he says "an average of 8.2 autopsies per day/365 days per year". That is far too specific for him to simply be mistaken. And with the publicity the thread got, it's hard to believe that he wouldn't have corrected his precise "error" at some point. Furthermore, someone called him on the numbers on the thread and he replied without correcting the original figure and said that the previous day he had worked 7 autopsies. I think he's sticking by his numbers even if you're not. ;)

I said more than 2,000, but if you use his VERY specific numbers, it works out to 2993. Almost half the deaths for the entire county and approaching 3 times the number of autopsies one would expect to be taking place period.

You say that maybe he's getting autopsies from out of the county (which he confirms--not surprisingly since he's going to have to find a LOT of bodies to hit the 3000 mark).

Deaths in the entire state of GA in 2003 were 66,478 (http://www.fedstats.gov/qf/states/13000.html). If you assume that 20% of them resulted in autopsies, that's 13,296 autopsies for the entire state. This guy is effectively claiming to have witnessed a quarter (22.5%) of the autopsies for the entire state of GA. I just can't see it...

Later on in the thread he says that he had "only 4 autopsies" in one day that were gunshot deaths. If you assume that's a pretty normal day (and he says that it's a rare day when they "don't see at least a couple of gunshot wounds" so we're definitely in the neighborhood), that comes out to his morgue(s?) working about 5% of the gunshot deaths in the entire nation. Again, that seems pretty high.

Furthermore, according to this link (http://www.fcmeo.org/Stats.htm) there are a total of 887 autopsies done in all of in Fulton County in 2005. Far lower than his projected number. Even if you assume that he's being very general in his use of the term "autopsy", there were still only 1427 bodies examined in 2005 by the medical examiner. Less than half of the 2,993 autopsies he witnesses in a year. Ok, maybe he's not with the FCME. Then why doesn't he say so? He replied in the post IMMEDIATELY following the post with the link to the FCME stats and totally ignores a very strong challenge to his credibility. Why?

He finally gets around to disavowing being with the FCME on page 20 of the thread. So, he's not with the FCME and yet he's STILL seeing 2993 autopsies a year. WHERE are all these bodies coming from???

There are other inconsistencies. 10ring points out several on the first post of page 13.

Here are some more. He starts out praising the .357Magnum as a "glorious stopper" and then finally gets around to saying that they almost never see it and when they do see one "or any revolver round, for that matter) at autopsy is with a suicide". So, what's he saying? That if you shoot yourself in the temple with a .357Mag, it's a glorious stopper? Not really. It gets clearer later on.

His comments about ballistics gel are silly. Sure, ballistics gel isn't flesh, but all of modern science hasn't come up with something that's a better approximation. Maybe it's not perfect, but within the assumptions made, it's pretty good. More on this later.

He says repeatedly that big and slow-moving is the best but also says repeatedly that the velocity of the .357Mag makes up for it's smaller size. We get a clue on page 5 when it becomes pretty obvious from some of his posts that he's just repeating what he's heard about .357Mag since he keeps talking about its "reputation", saying it's "known as a manstopper." Sooo. It now seems that his comments about the "marvelous" abilities of the .357Mag are primarily hearsay. To make it worse, in one of his posts he admits that "wound damage is determined by the kinetic energy lost in the tissue" and says "It sounds like we want a big bullet moving at high velocity" and yet still sticks to his big and slow recommendation--definitely not a recipe for kinetic energy. Again, more on that later...

This comment "The temporary cavity is extremely important in that it is largely responsible for producing injuries to arteries, veins, organs, and nerves that are not directly struck by the bullet or its fragments." is directly contradictory to everything I've ever seen in that arteries and veins are definitely elastic tissue which is universally accepted to be virtually impervious to temporary cavity effects. And he doesn't just say it once either. More to come...

There are also his clear statements that there is a big difference between the effects of bullets from different handgun calibers. Yet we have seen on THR at least one doctor claiming that the effects are very similar and that they can't tell one caliber from another by looking at the wounds. Yep, you guessed it, this mystery is solved too--later in the thread.

So, let's wrap up some of the more later comments I made earlier. Here's a good starting place! "I mainly get the skeletal remains and the ones that are so decomposed that the ME can't do much with them." FINALLY something that starts to make sense--so he's comparing skeletal remains and badly decomposed bodies to ballistics gel? He's determining wound paths and temporary cavity damage from bodies that "the ME can't do much with"? Now the picture is getting clearer.

Here's what I think. I think he's probably working in some sort of capacity in a morgue. I think he works mostly with the badly decomposed bodies--the ones no one else can do anything with. I think he probably sees a lot of dead bodies and a good number dead from gunshots. I think he also sees exactly what he wants to in terms of caliber effectiveness and rationalizes it with what he has heard and read from other places. Here's one telling bit of evidence to support what I think. He says: "I've NEVER failed to see a .40 or .45 get the job done..."

That is a truly INCREDIBLE statement. A man who claims to see 3000 autopsies a year and yet has NEVER seen a .40 or .45 fail to work?? Oh... but he only sees DEAD people. Naturally he's never seen a .40 or .45 fail to work. Then what does he mean by this--the rest of the sentence? "...I can't say the same about the 9mm." You can't have it both ways unless you're only seeing what you want to. BTW, he later clarifies that "I don't think I've ever seen a .45 fail to penetrate adequately..." a statement that is a good deal shakier than his "NEVER" affirmation.

Ok, we still left some loose ends.

He FINALLY makes it clear that he's not picking a round based on EFFECTIVENESS but based on " PENETRATION. Pure and simple." In other words, he's basing his conclusions purely on how well rounds penetrate. Something that you don't have to work in a morgue to find out. But he's using his position in the morgue as if that somehow adds special validation to his preconceived notions of what makes handgun calibers effective. That really tears it in my mind. (And it also explains why he sticks to his .45caliber guns in the face of his earlier statements seemingly affirming the .357Mag and rounds with similar ballistics/energy.)

And what about those statements that contradict established medical fact? We finally get let in on the knowledge that he's an anthropologist, not a medical professional. No wonder some of his statements don't match those of medical experts. Kinda makes you wish he'd revealed that little nugget earlier than PAGE 15 of the thread.

If you put all his posts together and read between the lines, the story just isn't the same as the one he's trying to sell. I think he's probably being pretty honest about things by the end of the thread, but he certainly started out giving the strong impression that he was a medical professional doing in depth analysis on shooting victims. Only after a good bit of discussion do we learn that he OBSERVES autopsies, has no medical credentials and that his conclusions are based solely on what he has seen (not measured or analyzed) of how various handgun calibers penetrate.

That's cool. Lots of people put their eggs in the penetration basket. But face it--that thread went on for 20 pages because this guy made himself sound like something he wasn't--not because of the underlying topic.

If he had just posted that the .45ACP penetrates better than the 9mm and that's why he likes it, it would have been a single page thread. Unfortunately when you finally get through all the smokescreen, that's what this 20 pager finally boils down to: One man's OPINION of what makes a bullet effective and his OPINION of which bullets penetrate best.

Here's the short way to figure out what's going on. Read the first page of the thread. Then read the post by DeadMeat2 on page 19. It's not at all hard to see the difference. Page one, this guy is an expert letting us in on some inside information. Page 19, we finally get the confession that this is his opinion "enhanced" by some anecdotes from his unusual occupation.

[MachIVshooter]

he says "an average of 8.2 autopsies per day/365 days per year"

Many of us work long hours (I put in 55-63 per week), but this guys schedule is going to land him on his own table.:scrutiny:

And are we to believe autopsies only take about an hour? C'mon, this guy is definitely embellishing a wee bit.

[JohnKSa]

...his own table...It won't be HIS table. Turns out he's an anthopologist, not a coroner--and apparently he observes autopsies--he doesn't actually do them as nearly as I can tell.

[Yooper]

I think the core of the argument of effectiveness is the bullet's ability to penetrate the target. If it doesn't penetrate, it either missed the target, or it bounced off. What the bullet does to the target is primarily a function of bullet design, and secondarily a function of potential energy. The only objective argument as to the bullet's ability is that of penetration. Effectiveness depends upon the target's reaction to the bullet, and is far more subjective.

[Biker]

So, since a .22lr or a .25acp will provide adequate penetration, why not carry one of them?

Biker

[steelhead]

cookekdjr,

I think it's not possible to be that generous to him. He's very specific about the autopsies per day number. He doesn't just say 8 a day, he says "an average of 8.2 autopsies per day/365 days per year". That is far too specific for him to simply be mistaken. And with the publicity the thread got, it's hard to believe that he wouldn't have corrected his precise "error" at some point. Furthermore, someone called him on the numbers on the thread and he replied without correcting the original figure and said that the previous day he had worked 7 autopsies. I think he's sticking by his numbers even if you're not.

I said more than 2,000, but if you use his VERY specific numbers, it works out to 2993. Almost half the deaths for the entire county and approaching 3 times the number of autopsies one would expect to be taking place period.

You say that maybe he's getting autopsies from out of the county (which he confirms--not surprisingly since he's going to have to find a LOT of bodies to hit the 3000 mark).

Deaths in the entire state of GA in 2003 were 66,478. If you assume that 20% of them resulted in autopsies, that's 13,296 autopsies for the entire state. This guy is effectively claiming to have witnessed a quarter (22.5%) of the autopsies for the entire state of GA. I just can't see it...

Later on in the thread he says that he had "only 4 autopsies" in one day that were gunshot deaths. If you assume that's a pretty normal day (and he says that it's a rare day when they "don't see at least a couple of gunshot wounds" so we're definitely in the neighborhood), that comes out to his morgue(s?) working about 5% of the gunshot deaths in the entire nation. Again, that seems pretty high.

Furthermore, according to this link there are a total of 887 autopsies done in all of in Fulton County in 2005. Far lower than his projected number. Even if you assume that he's being very general in his use of the term "autopsy", there were still only 1427 bodies examined in 2005 by the medical examiner. Less than half of the 2,993 autopsies he witnesses in a year. Ok, maybe he's not with the FCME. Then why doesn't he say so? He replied in the post IMMEDIATELY following the post with the link to the FCME stats and totally ignores a very strong challenge to his credibility. Why?

He finally gets around to disavowing being with the FCME on page 20 of the thread. So, he's not with the FCME and yet he's STILL seeing 2993 autopsies a year. WHERE are all these bodies coming from???

There are other inconsistencies. 10ring points out several on the first post of page 13.

Here are some more. He starts out praising the .357Magnum as a "glorious stopper" and then finally gets around to saying that they almost never see it and when they do see one "or any revolver round, for that matter) at autopsy is with a suicide". So, what's he saying? That if you shoot yourself in the temple with a .357Mag, it's a glorious stopper? Not really. It gets clearer later on.

His comments about ballistics gel are silly. Sure, ballistics gel isn't flesh, but all of modern science hasn't come up with something that's a better approximation. Maybe it's not perfect, but within the assumptions made, it's pretty good. More on this later.

He says repeatedly that big and slow-moving is the best but also says repeatedly that the velocity of the .357Mag makes up for it's smaller size. We get a clue on page 5 when it becomes pretty obvious from some of his posts that he's just repeating what he's heard about .357Mag since he keeps talking about its "reputation", saying it's "known as a manstopper." Sooo. It now seems that his comments about the "marvelous" abilities of the .357Mag are primarily hearsay. To make it worse, in one of his posts he admits that "wound damage is determined by the kinetic energy lost in the tissue" and says "It sounds like we want a big bullet moving at high velocity" and yet still sticks to his big and slow recommendation--definitely not a recipe for kinetic energy. Again, more on that later...

This comment "The temporary cavity is extremely important in that it is largely responsible for producing injuries to arteries, veins, organs, and nerves that are not directly struck by the bullet or its fragments." is directly contradictory to everything I've ever seen in that arteries and veins are definitely elastic tissue which is universally accepted to be virtually impervious to temporary cavity effects. And he doesn't just say it once either. More to come...

There are also his clear statements that there is a big difference between the effects of bullets from different handgun calibers. Yet we have seen on THR at least one doctor claiming that the effects are very similar and that they can't tell one caliber from another by looking at the wounds. Yep, you guessed it, this mystery is solved too--later in the thread.

So, let's wrap up some of the more later comments I made earlier. Here's a good starting place! "I mainly get the skeletal remains and the ones that are so decomposed that the ME can't do much with them." FINALLY something that starts to make sense--so he's comparing skeletal remains and badly decomposed bodies to ballistics gel? He's determining wound paths and temporary cavity damage from bodies that "the ME can't do much with"? Now the picture is getting clearer.

Here's what I think. I think he's probably working in some sort of capacity in a morgue. I think he works mostly with the badly decomposed bodies--the ones no one else can do anything with. I think he probably sees a lot of dead bodies and a good number dead from gunshots. I think he also sees exactly what he wants to in terms of caliber effectiveness and rationalizes it with what he has heard and read from other places. Here's one telling bit of evidence to support what I think. He says: "I've NEVER failed to see a .40 or .45 get the job done..."

That is a truly INCREDIBLE statement. A man who claims to see 3000 autopsies a year and yet has NEVER seen a .40 or .45 fail to work?? Oh... but he only sees DEAD people. Naturally he's never seen a .40 or .45 fail to work. Then what does he mean by this--the rest of the sentence? "...I can't say the same about the 9mm." You can't have it both ways unless you're only seeing what you want to. BTW, he later clarifies that "I don't think I've ever seen a .45 fail to penetrate adequately..." a statement that is a good deal shakier than his "NEVER" affirmation.

Ok, we still left some loose ends.

He FINALLY makes it clear that he's not picking a round based on EFFECTIVENESS but based on " PENETRATION. Pure and simple." In other words, he's basing his conclusions purely on how well rounds penetrate. Something that you don't have to work in a morgue to find out. But he's using his position in the morgue as if that somehow adds special validation to his preconceived notions of what makes handgun calibers effective. That really tears it in my mind. (And it also explains why he sticks to his .45caliber guns in the face of his earlier statements seemingly affirming the .357Mag and rounds with similar ballistics/energy.)

And what about those statements that contradict established medical fact? We finally get let in on the knowledge that he's an anthropologist, not a medical professional. No wonder some of his statements don't match those of medical experts. Kinda makes you wish he'd revealed that little nugget earlier than PAGE 15 of the thread.

If you put all his posts together and read between the lines, the story just isn't the same as the one he's trying to sell. I think he's probably being pretty honest about things by the end of the thread, but he certainly started out giving the strong impression that he was a medical professional doing in depth analysis on shooting victims. Only after a good bit of discussion do we learn that he OBSERVES autopsies, has no medical credentials and that his conclusions are based solely on what he has seen (not measured or analyzed) of how various handgun calibers penetrate.

That's cool. Lots of people put their eggs in the penetration basket. But face it--that thread went on for 20 pages because this guy made himself sound like something he wasn't--not because of the underlying topic.

If he had just posted that the .45ACP penetrates better than the 9mm and that's why he likes it, it would have been a single page thread. Unfortunately when you finally get through all the smokescreen, that's what this 20 pager finally boils down to: One man's OPINION of what makes a bullet effective and his OPINION of which bullets penetrate best.

Here's the short way to figure out what's going on. Read the first page of the thread. Then read the post by DeadMeat2 on page 19. It's not at all hard to see the difference. Page one, this guy is an expert letting us in on some inside information. Page 19, we finally get the confession that this is his opinion "enhanced" by some anecdotes from his unusual occupation.



JohnKSa,

Well done sir!!!

I didn't have the will power to do what you did, so I just gave a summation of "Deadmeat2 smells of troll". There is also something very Mall Ninjanesque in his cavalier attitude about dead "bangers", etc., and in the general way he writes. Those that I have known, to have BTDT, don't converse that way. It really sounds like someone had a lot of time, to read a book, on the night shift while guarding the strip mall........

[steelhead]

So, since a .22lr or a .25acp will provide adequate penetration, why not carry one of them?

Biker


Come on, knock off the sophomorics.


I think everyone would agree that you should use the largest handgun cartridge you can if:

1. You can control it and get hits (would you rather choose your fist or keys over a .25ACP?)
2. It fits the situation (you can't always carry a medium or fullsize handgun)
3. You can't use a long gun.

Nothing magical happens when you reach .40+. All handgun cartridges are relatively poor stoppers, with incrementals differences that are often presented as monumental (especially the 9mm vs, .40 vs .45ACP debate).

[Biker]

Sophmorics? What's "sophmoric" is the logic that says penetration and shot placement is all that matters. If that was the case, any caliber would do as long as the shooter can place their shots perfectly everytime. The point is, all things being equal, the bigger the hole the better.
Now, bag the 'homs', m'kay?

Biker

[Danus ex]

Threads like this mislead those who use "expert" forums like this one to research their gun purchases. Before I picked my carry weapon, I fell into reading the caliber war threads, too. After a lot of internal debate about what I should carry, I finally just looked at some indesputable historical facts that we all know.

So, here I give you a list of the major pistol calibers used to kill people that are common today and the name of the group who did that killing (this is probably incomplete):

7.62x25 - Soviet Russia, Eastern Bloc nations
9x18 - Soviet Russia, Eastern Bloc nations
9x19 - Nazi Germany, European police, U.S. law enforcement, NATO
.38 Special - U.S. law enforcement
.357 Magnum - U.S. law enforcement
.40 S&W - U.S. law enforcement
.45ACP - U.S. armed forces, U.S. law enforcement

Handguns are not death rays. None of these calibers will disintegrate a man in one shot, yet all have put a substantial number of people in the dirt, each enough to be considered effective.

The way I finally moved past this crap and settled on a carry gun (and that gun sparked my interest in guns) was to reduce caliber's importance on my list of critera to "is it historically effective?" I moved "feel" to the very top, and for carry, chose my gun based on the gun, not the caliber.

Lurkers and newbies should steer clear of all threads like this.

[x3m]

during a riot back in the good old days in south africa:rolleyes: , a rioter high on marijuana:cuss: panga in hand charged a police officer armed with a pump action shotgun:fire: .
the cop proceeded to empty his his shotgun on said rioter aiming mostly for the stomach and chest region , but the rioter kept coming:neener: , at the very last moment another officer took out his 9mm and shot the charging man right between the eyes:what: ,he dropped like a stone afterwards they had a look at the corpse and found that his backbone could be seen from the front as the shotgun shot out all his guts :barf: . i think luck has a lot to do with every gunfight no matter what gun you carry. sure practice is important but luck is critical;)

[Biker]

Now *that's* some killer smoke!:)

Biker

[tantrix]

Danus ex - Lurkers and newbies should steer clear of all threads like this.

I agree. Only newbies get caught up in caliber wars claiming their ".45ACP" or "10mm" is more "powerful" and the only caliber worth carrying. For long time shooters though, we know better.

Danus ex, from what you said I can tell you used your common sense and did your research the right way. I would bet any amount of money you didn't take some gun-store commando's advice and impulse-buy a .45ACP 1911 right after walking into the store. Good work. ;)

[R127]

.22lr/.25acp do not really offer acceptable penetration. As soon as you're shooting through heavy clothes or light cover they become very unpredictable and many loads are borderline against jello. Otherwise you're basically right, a .22lr or .25acp is just like an ice pick, and ice picks have killed plenty of people when they've hit something vital, especially repeatedly. Sometimes I do carry a .22lr when anything else is too small. I would happily carry a 7.62x25 over a 9mm, .40sw or .45acp, if only somebody would make me a fullsized double stack combat pistol for the Tok cartridge. I am more prone to criticize low capacities than calibers anyway. I can pull the trigger many times quickly if necessary, but if I need more ammo than I've brought with, I'm out of luck. About half of all violent encounters a citizen will face will involve 2 or more attackers.

[CCWMAN]

I would strongly disaggree with your statement regarding the .9mm for the following reasons:

1. The use of Corbon, the CCI-SPEER 124 grain Gold Dot+P hollowpoints, and the Buffalo Bore+P hollow points that use the same CCI-SPEER 124 grain Gold Dot hollow point at 1300 f.p.s. from a 4" barrel!!:what:

This is approximately 75% of the punch of the .357 Magnum! In my Browning High Power that's over 1350 f.p.s.! Even the .38 Special with 125 grain+P Hollowpoints like the Remington half-jacketed, the Winchester Silvertip, the CCI-SPEER Gold Dot,or the new 135 grain +P Gold Dot hollowpoint is damn effective from even 2" snubbies!

2. Law enforcement still uses the .9mm quite a lot although the .40 S&W has surpassed it. It still remains in use by 30-35% of law enforcement.

3. Also I'd rather have an AR-15 than a 12 Guage any day! More controllable and very powerful.

[Yooper]

I don't remember writing that penetration was "all that matters", I said penetration was the core of the issue. The bigger the hole, given adequate penetration, the better. Jump to whatever conclusions you wish.

[Danus ex]

Danus ex, from what you said I can tell you used your common sense and did your research the right way. I would bet any amount of money you didn't take some gun-store commando's advice and impulse-buy a .45ACP 1911 right after walking into the store. Good work.

Thank you, tantrix. The gun I eventually purchased (two of) is one that I'm still learning and still learning how to appreciate--the Colt Detective Special. It's just large enough to shoot accurately (turns out the D-frame guns are perfect for my smallish hands), small enough to conceal very well, gives me six reliable shots of .38 +P lead hollow points, is light for a steel gun, has an outstanding finish, and is built incredibly well and feels and shoots like a quality firearm should.

[MCgunner]

1. The use of Corbon, the CCI-SPEER 124 grain Gold Dot+P hollowpoints, and the Buffalo Bore+P hollow points that use the same CCI-SPEER 124 grain Gold Dot hollow point at 1300 f.p.s. from a 4" barrel!!

This is approximately 75% of the punch of the .357 Magnum!

Yep, pretty impressive ain't it? And, chamber the .357 in a 2" snub so that it'll fit the same pocket as a typical compact 9 using the +P round and that round is even closer, almost the same, as the .357 magnum because of the quicker burning powder and better efficiency in the shorter 3" tube of a typical sub-compact 9. Out of my P11, my 115 grain JHPs are clockin' 1260 fps/410 ft lbs. That's a LOT of pocket size power! And, it ain't tough to shoot in a 14 ounce gun, either!

That's why I like the sub-compact 9mms and carry one. I shoot it well and I always have it with me and that's really what matters.

[tantrix]

Thank you, tantrix. The gun I eventually purchased (two of) is one that I'm still learning and still learning how to appreciate--the Colt Detective Special. It's just large enough to shoot accurately (turns out the D-frame guns are perfect for my smallish hands), small enough to conceal very well, gives me six reliable shots of .38 +P lead hollow points, is light for a steel gun, has an outstanding finish, and is built incredibly well and feels and shoots like a quality firearm should.

Yeah, those Detective Specials are very nice pieces. One of the best revolvers made over the years in my opinion. I haven't seen one for sale in any gun stores around here in years, you're lucky to have 2 of them especially if they're in good shape. I sometimes carry a used Smith/Wesson 642-1 pre-lock model I bought a couple years ago. I keep it stoked with 135gr +P Gold Dots. It's no Colt DS, but still pretty nice for a recently made revolver. :D

[cookekdjr]

cookekdjr,

I think it's not possible to be that generous to him.
JohnKSa,

I asked dm2 to e-mail me. I told him we would necessarily know each other or have mutual friends.
He never responded.
That tells me all I need to know.
-David

[JohnKSa]

Thanks for the update...

Sounds like even I was being too generous to him. :(

[MidnightRambler]

With enough practice, one can double tap a .45acp as fast and as accurately as a nine and the holes are bigger. That's just a fact...

No, it's not. Some of us have older, arthritic hands and 9mm is about as much recoil as we can handle. All the practice in the world won't change that.

[JohnKSa]

With enough practice, one can double tap a .45acp as fast and as accurately as a nine...Rob Leatham can't.

http://www.highbeam.com/library/docFree.asp?DOCID=1G1:132840815

"...Rob Leatham told me, "I probably shoot more matches with the 9mm 1911 than with anything else." ... for matches like the American Handgunner Shootoff or the Steel Challenge, he chooses the ... 9mm Luger. Rob Leatham certainly doesn't need its light recoil for any lack of ability to control something more powerful. Shooting against the best in the world, he can't afford to give anything away at all, and the 9mm's lighter recoil works to his advantage in those speed-based championships. The 9mm simply recovers from muzzle flip" faster than the .40 or the .45, even in the hands of the man many consider the world's best practical handgun shooter."

[The_Seventh_Sign]

There are two stories one current and one from the past that read like this.
From A WW II American soldier "I saw him and he saw me face to face he shot first and punchered my lung with his 9 MM Lugar I Shot him dead with my 45."

Miami shoot out with two bank robbers armed with Full Auto AK-47's They opened fire at the first cops to arrive and those cops were armed with 9 MM the bullets had no effect on them. hours later when the cops called a gun dealer with what they needed to take these guys down a number of officers were down the the perps were still shooting.

Personally, I Dutch load a 380 ACP but if my life were dependent on it I would be carrying my 45 ACP Dutch loaded or have my 357 magnum with Glaser safety slugs or all three if the threats were bad enough.

(Dutch load is where you load Hardball then hollow point then hardball then hollow point load like this until the magazine is full.)
If it is a real bad day to be alive then shotguns are ranger loaded. (Buckshot slug buckshot slug).
However, so far at this point in my life the only thing I am being threatened with are girl scout cookies so I pay the first girl and grab a few boxes and run for home and chill them in the freezer. If high cholesterol does not kill me, nothing will. http://www.thehighroad.org/images/smilies/smile.gif
:)

[BluesBear]

Miami shoot out with two bank robbers armed with Full Auto AK-47's Er, um, I think you mean Los Angeles don't you?
And since the robbers were wearing body armor the fact of the matter is that a .44 magnum would not have done any better.

[Silvanus]

those cops were armed with 9 MM the bullets had no effect on them

Pretty stupid argument IMO. The 9mm is known to have better penetration than the .45. Besides, in that situation, neither would have shown an effect on the robbers.

[R127]

I love all the anecdotes where a badguy absorbs a whole mag of 9mm until somebody shows up and dispatches him with a single shot of "X," "x" often being a .45. Because, obviously, taking more than a dozen hits prior had nothing to do with the badguy's demise...

[MCgunner]

Now, you could do a statistical study of gun fights and use all these so called real life gun fights to prove your point, .45 is the only caliber that will kill a man. But, I think it's already been done by Evan Marshall and all the big bore guys poo faw the results because it doesn't support their inherent vast knowledge of terminal ballistics. :rolleyes:

[AK103K]

taking more than a dozen hits prior had nothing to do with the badguy's demise...
Ya think? :)

[S&W620]

Let me first say thanks to XDn00b101 for opening this can of worms. As least it is an original topic! Second, the 9mm does actually work. End of story? Yes. End of thread? NEVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR............!!!!!!!

[psychophipps]

While I can see the coroner's point in noting the caliber-to-bullets-in-corpse disparity, he's also not taking some important points into account. Your average gangbanger is an untrained idiot who's idea of shooting technique is based on Scarface and MTV videos.
While this might not seem to immediately mean anything in this discussion, it means more than you think when you take into account the fact these aforementioned untrained idiots also have no recoil-control training. To wit, the heavier loads (.357, .45 ACP, etc.) cause enough muzzle flip, only made worse by the large propensity of these people to hold the weapon sideways, that a second shot on-target is going to be much less likely than with lighter loadings like the 9mm Luger and .380.
You have people who develop flinch reflexes with the "good" loadings, at least as they pertain to the coroner's observations, when they shoot a bit. Now make this ten times worse by never going to the range, holding the firearm sideways and forthermore not making sure (or any effort at all for that matter) that the line of recoil is in-line with the forearm and wrist and you see a lot less of "The best calibers EVER" and more "he actually lined of for a decent second shot with that lighter round" than might have been previously discussed.

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[AmbulanceDriver]

I wouldn't even have read through every page of this thread. But I wanted to check to make sure that no one had brought this one up....

Was at the local gun range the other day, and saw the handgun that would once and for all end the .45 vs 9mm vs 10mm vs :barf: debate.

It was an AK-47 style receiver with a short barrel, and a pistol grip. No buttstock.

With a 30 rd mag hanging under it.

7.62x39 wins this one I think...

:evil: :neener:

p.s. I know, someone is gonna point out that the 7.62x39 won't get up to full velocity out of a short barrel. I really doubt that it would make all that much of a difference.....

[BluesBear]

And you're gonna carry this in your waistband or in an ankle holster? :neener:

[bouis]

Someone said that a .32 auto had been stopped by someone's front teeth.. that's not unheard of. A solder in Iraq took a 9mm right below his nose point blank and all it cost him were his teeth. It left him with an ugly smile, but he'll smile it for a long time. I don't know that a .45 would have done anything different.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/teeth.asp


My .02, for what it's worth -- a handgun is only useful because it's small enough to carry. Carry the biggest one you're sure will always be with you. Know its limitations and adjust your tactics whenever possible.

The 9mm strikes a great balance between power and compactness. After it, as you go up in calibers and firepower, you get seroiusly "diminishing returns." The odds of another practical concealed carry caliber making a difference once you've drawn the weapon are probably statistically insignificant.

[makarovnik]

The guy does say the 9mm is one of the wounds he sees most often on the autopsy table. Yes shot placement is important but it's most important with small and medium calibers. With a .45 you can hit someone in the arm and possibly decapitate them. They will probably go into shock, bleed out right away or have enough meat missing to render them harmless. That being said I carry a makarov. It certainly isn't the most effective caliber but with FMJ it has adequate penetration to hit vital organs, it's comfortable to carry and I shoot it well. My pistol is very accurate but I notice that almost all rounds look as though they're slightly canted when they go through a paper target. I read some information online that this was normal with this round and they tend to tumble through human flesh. Anybody else heard this?

Of course ammo can be a decisive factor. For self defense I actually like FMJ in the .380, 9x18 and .45 ACP. Why? Because you really need to get up around 1000 feet per second in order for hollowpoints to expand reliably in human flesh. You also have the trade off between wound diameter vs. penetration. I think the real danger of FMJ is over-penetration. With a fast round like 9mm luger I prefer the hollowpoints. The bullet is moving fast enough to expand reliably and a FMJ on the other hand might go right through and hit a bystander.

What does everyone else think? Assuming your pistol feeds hollowpoints reliably, are they always the best for self defense or only in certain calibers?

[makarovnik]

Oops! Sorry about the double post

[pete f]

To those who call the anthropologist a troll or a fibber.

If you read close, there are a couple of people who figure out who he is. He is a legit person. If you have any skills on Google you can figure out who he is. Seeing he has not seen fit to divulge neither will I. He gives enough clues, just read the stories.


While he does not do the autopsies, he is in the room for an awful lot of them. His background is ID'ing those who have gone on with no record, cold cases, war atrocities etc. He has seen more dead people than Halley Joel Osment.

Read what he is saying, when dead bodies of criminals show up, those shot but smaller rounds have more holes, often those holes show evidence of deflection and insufficient damage to have resulted in a quick stop. Likewise what he is saying is that when crooks show up with one or two bullet holes, they are usually shot by .40 or 45's. At the same time, the bullet trails seem to be straighter and more likely to have gone thru bone rather than be deflected by it. The man has the background and the evidence. Why are you unwilling to learn from it?

Which do you want to carry, a gun that stops the BG with one or two shot's or one that needs more?

Re the Rob Leatham comment. He was probably refering to his 9x23 race gun for shooting an arbitrary game with arbitrary power ratings. within the parameters of his sport, that was true, but it was more based on the ability of hi end compensated pistols to function better with more gas velocity than it was on a stone stock 9mm or 45. But if referenced to the Dr's posting, then it makes this statement seem to be true, that you would need to shoot the 9 twice as fast to be as effective as the 45. Can you shoot your nine twice as fast?

just putting out the fire with gasoline.

[MCgunner]

What I want to carry is the smallest size gun in a service (9x19mm) caliber. I've never shot a man in my life and I'm 53 years old. If I can shoot 10 out of 10 rams at 200 yards with an open sighted pistol, I can hit center mass at 3 feet. :rolleyes: A bullet that's packin' 410 ft lbs ain't something I wanna get shot with, either, no matter how many hundredths of an inch it is.:rolleyes:

If you wanna carry around a .44 mag desert eagle, fine, more power to you. Me, I'll be carryin' a compact nine, 14 ounces of +P fire power, thanks. It rates in the 90s in REAL gun fights for comparative purposes, similar to the .45ACP, as it should with over 400 ft lbs of energy and 1260 fps of velocity to open up that hollow point. It won't challenge the 4" service .357 magnum, king of the hill in handgun power. I guess that's because the bullet is .002" smaller than the .357...:rolleyes: But, the .357 is a flash/bang wimp out of a carryable sized gun, a snubby. The 9 has more energy with a similar size/weight bullet. It gets it done with a faster burning, denser powder out of short barrels and, thus, also has much less recoil and is easier to fire rapidly.

For CCW, a gun you will have with you is far better than the shotgun at home in the closet. You have to realize, NO handgun is a "stopper", period, not even the holy .45 ACP. The .357 out of a long enough barrel begins to approach rifle like power, but it ain't there out of anything all day carryable. You can't carry a Mossberg Persuader IWB or in a pocket, so just choose what you WILL have with you, something you CAN carry all day, every day, all year. The 9 offers the most power for the carryable size of any handgun caliber with the possible exception of some of the compact .40s. Between .40 and 9mm, I've chosen the 9. It's easier on those little frames and packs enough punch IMHO and it's easy to shoot accurately and fast. the .40 is a viable choice, though. I've yet to see the .45 ACP that's pocket sized. If we're talkin' service guns, I'd argue for the .357 magnum revolver as to caliber above all others save maybe a .41 magnum, but I'm not a cop or security guard. I carry concealed, usually pocket or IWB.

As was stated earlier, if a coroner is examining a body, it is probably a dead one no matter the caliber that put it there.

[steelhead]

So, you think this is him? Time to make a phone call.


http://www.state.ga.us/gbi/pathology/bios.html



http://www.state.ga.us/gbi/pathology/snow.jpg


"Dr. Frederick Snow graduated from Georgia State University in Atlanta, GA with a B.A in 1970. He served as a patrolman for the Dekalb County Police Department from 1973 to 1980. Dr. Snow enrolled as a graduate student at the University of Tennessee in Knoxville, Tennessee and received a master's degree in anthropology in 1989. He joined the Georgia Bureau of Investigation in 2002 and earned a Ph.D. in anthropology from the University of Tennessee in 2004.

Dr. Snow has extensive field experience in the identification of remains from mass grave/disaster sites. Internationally, he served as a forensic anthropologist for the UN War Crimes Tribunal for Kosovo in 1999, helping to determine manner of death and gain evidence for the indictment of war criminals. He also excavated mass graves for the International Commission on Missing Persons in Sarajevo and Herzegovina, Bosnia to recover evidence for use at the UN War Crimes Tribunal at The Hague in 2001. Finally, Dr. Snow served in an administrative role for the tsunami victims identification project in 2005 in Phuket, Thailand. Domestically, he was part of the Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Team (DMORT), in Noble, Georgia in 2002, and helped recover and identify remains from 326 individuals at the Tri-State Crematory.

At the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, Dr. Snow has collected, analyzed, and archived approximately 200 sets of unidentified human skeletal remains dating to 1969. "

[buzz_knox]

A lot of great qualifications. None of which, unfortunately, go to the primary thesis of the thread: the adequacy or inadequacy of the 9mm. That simply isn't possible to be determined from skeletal/decomposed remains (which is what such an expert typically deals with).

[MCgunner]

An anthropologist is a terminal ballistics expert? :rolleyes:

[30-06 lover]

LOL these threads make me laugh. Placement is not everything. Power is not everything.
-Mike

[BluesBear]

But isn't anecdotal evidence and personal obserbation what 99% of The High Road members base their posts on?

[buzz_knox]

But isn't anecdotal evidence and personal obserbation what 99% of The High Road members base their posts on?

And lack of substance or evidentiary support is why 99% of posts that get ripped apart are treated that way.

[MCgunner]

Well, terminal ballistics is best understood by the physicists and even they don't even have a good handle on it. They can split the atom, but terminal ballistics is still a bit of a quandary. :rolleyes: :D But, hey, I'll let the physicists argue with the anthropologists, whatever, and keep carrying my pocket 9.

I saw a deal on history channel once where an anthropologist enlisted the help of his physics department to measure the power of an atlatl to see if it actually COULD kill a mammoth. That right there tells ME somethin', eh? Oh, the big and slow guys would LOVE that atlatl. I don't remember the ft lbs, but modern man ain't got nothin' on it, not shoulder fired anyway! :D

[Billy Wyrick]

A very interesting thread. I was just wondering about Mr. Marshall and Mr. Sanow, and just what caliber they carry now after their study has been published? It seams to me, I read a few years or more ago, that Mr. Marshall said he went over to a Sig .357. But maybe someone knows just what "THE TWO OF THEM" carry today? I hope someone has the answer, thanks in advance.
Billy Wyrick

[kbheiner7]

I'm not sure about all the autopsy and studies others have done.

I've done a little (emphasis on little) research on this and believe the .45 is a better stopping round than the 9mm. I say that because I've shot a few deer with each and deer shot with the .45 died quicker.

Yes, this is far from scientific. While all of the shots were in the bread basket, they were not identically placed. Some broke a rib going in, some didn't.

That said, I have also shot a few deer with a .44 magnum and it pretty much dropped them in their tracks. :D

Still - this is a good thread. We all have our preferences and reasons for having them. Some claim to hate these threads, but we still read them. :)

[TeachMe]

Power matters to a point -- you have to have enough power behind the bullet to consistently reach the vital organs or CNS, after that it's shot placement. Carry what you can shoot well and shoot until the threat stops. Don't expect a one-shot-stop from your death-ray just because you read something online.

[BluesBear]

Most people who are advocating carrying Caliber A, Brand X type R ammunition instead of Caliber B, Brand Z type U ammunition are not terminal ballisticians either.

My point was he didn't say he was an expert in terminal ballistics.
In fact, I don't recall him saying he was an expert in anything?
He was just commenting on what HE had PERSONALLY observed.
As I read all 20+ pages I didn't get the impression he was trying to change anyone's mine. He was just expesssing his personal opinions.

The vast majority of everything said in this Forum is someone's opinion.
Where is it written in the book of life that one has to be an expert to give advice or voice an opinion.
And what exacrtly is the benchmark of determining expertise?
Is Dr Fackler an expert? DOes everyone agree with him?
Are Marshall & Sanow experts? Does everyone agree with them?
So just who is and who isn't an expert doesn't really matter much in the grande scheme.


Besides you cannot teach anything to a person who already knows it all.

[JohnKSa]

Where is it written in the book of life that one has to be an expert to give advice or voice an opinion.It isn't written anywhere because it's not true.

But representing yourself to be something you're not in order to give your opinion more credence isn't kosher.

Here's what DM2 says as his opening statement for the thread: "One of the benefits of working in a morgue is that I get to see what works and what doesn't. Ballistic gelatin is good as far as it goes, but there's nothing like seeing what a bullet actually does once it strikes bone, flesh, and organs."

Wow!, the reader thinks, "This guy has the real inside scoop! He's such an expert that he even knows better than people like Fackler who have spent their whole lives studying terminal ballistics in gelatin.

His second post starts out: "The .357 is gloriously effective." Not "IMO it is gloriously effective." Not "I think the .357 is very effective". No, he makes his statement as if it is an incontrovertible fact. Later in that post he says: "this is from experience that I've made my calls on what works and what doesn't." Again, not his opinion, but his experience tells him what works.

Contrast that with this post later in the thread when some of his inconsistencies are pushing him into a corner.

"...my dissertation isn't on ballistics, wound characteristics, or anything else even vaguely related to this topic."

"...you're absolutely right that often the ME can't tell what caliber and/or bullet was recovered at autopsy, and I clearly stated that in one of my earlier posts. "

"I've seen 9mm rounds fragment before reaching the vital organs and I don't think I've ever seen a .45 do that. That's all I've said, nothing more."

The last comment stands in STARK contrast to his unqualified endorsement of the .357Magnum as being "gloriously effective."

I'm not saying his opinion is invalid. It's as valid as anyone else's. But I AM saying that whether by design or by accident, his initial postings painted him as an expert in the field of terminal ballistics making unassailable statements backed up by forensic evidence--it wasn't until 15 pages into the thread that he started saying things like "I think" "I don't think", etc.

It's not WHAT he's saying, it's how he sold it.

[3 weelin geezer]

Among a .25, .32, .357, .40 or 10mm, and a .45, I would prefer the one with the longer bbl just because its easier to see where that slug is going to go. I favor at least a 6-8" bbl. Now if its a caliber issue then I would go with the .45......'70 that is. :what: Just one look at that Phelps revolver and he is sure to stop :uhoh: in the name of the law or Queen.

[Blacklabman]

This is a very long thread. :eek:
A service pistol/round is far from the hunting calibers such as the .44mag, .454 Casull etc, and a world removed a rifle or shotgun. A service round is nothing more a compromise. For this a person need confidence in their carry pistol/round.

For CCW, I prefer as 4" .357mag in winter, and 5" 1911 in summer. Night stand? I varies. You might even find a .44mag sitting there at times. They are what I am comfortable with, and have confidence in. While these rounds work for me, they will not work for everyone.

It is a proven fact, the service rounds are nothing but a compromise and all of them work at times, and all of the fail at times.
Because of this, a person should carry what they like, and are what the are comfortable using. Since it is a compromise, confidence in the weapon platform and round chosen, should be paramount if they are ever pressed into service.
My unscientific opinion.

[db_tanker]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I am guessing I am missing somthing here...or mebbe all of us are, I am not sure.

I was in the Army when the "transition" was taking place...I qualified with an M-9 and yet, when I got to my duty station in Kitzingen, got issued a 1911...and I loved both of them. I liked the M-9 due to it having a few extra shots...and the 1911 for its larger diameter and what with me being from Texas I liked big stuff (which is why I wanted to be a tanker...but thats another story)...

So now I find myself several years down the road...and I chose the 92FS over the 1911...does this make me un-American? I don't think so...does it mean I am forsaking an excellent American, John Moses Browning? Nope...didn't he make the Browning Hi-Power as well as the design on the 1911?

No, my main point to all this is simply this...

When you go hunting, what is the main thing, other than caliber, that we need to choose? Bullet design/type. Which is why my 92FS has 3 mags with 15 rounds of hydro-shok love in each...and I am sure that a few rounds of those sweeties will take the fight out of anyone intending harm to my loved ones and me.

MTCW
D

[MidnightRambler]

removed as information was already posted

[Sergeant Sabre]

Perhaps this was posted already, as I did not carefully read each and every post in this thread. But anyway:

This guy, supposedly being a Medical Examiner, only sees the guys who die from there wounds. He also says this:
I absolutely despise a 9mm for defensive situations...and a .380 as well. These are probably the two calibers I see most often on the autopsy table. (Emphasis added)
With no additional information to indicate how often 9mm projectiles are used as opposed to other sizes, the above statement indicates that people shot with 9mm-size projectiles may be more likely to die than those shot with any other caliber.

Our poster goes on to tell us that he often sees multiple hits with 9mm bullets a opposed to single hits with .40 or .45 bullets. So does that mean that the 9mms require multiple hits, or that the 9mms low recoil and comparatively high capacity allow for multiple hits?

There is simply not enough information containd in Deadmeat2's posts to make any sort of judgement at all.

Also, at autopsy, how does one distinguish between the wound from a 9x18, 9x19, .357 magnum, .357 Sig, and .380ACP?

[buzz_knox]

This guy, supposedly being a Medical Examiner, only sees the guys who die from there wounds.

Actually, he's a forensic anthropologist, not an ME. I daresay he'd always be more involved with identification/evidence gathering than a cause of death determination.

[BluesBear]

Also, at autopsy, how does one distinguish between the wound from a 9x18, 9x19, .357 magnum, .357 Sig, and .380ACP?
You look at the bullet after you remove it.

[texagun]

This has been a great thread....thanks to Xdn00b101 for posting the link to the original thread on the S&W Forum. I have read it all and appreciate the vast experience that Deadmeat2 has taken the time to share with all of us. Some of the skepticism and conflicting viewpoints expressed have been very interesting and some very humorous...there are a lot of Drugstore Cowboys on this and other gun forums that I find to be quite enjoyable to read. Everyone has his own opinion on the best caliber and load. I just happen to agree with Deadmeat2 that the .40 and .45 calibers are two of the best. I have been carrying and shooting for 50 years now and own both 9mm. and .40's and .45's. When I leave home, I always choose the latter to carry. Just my own personal choice. If you prefer the 9mm., that's great...I just hope and pray that neither of us has to ever use them for anything else than a security blanket.:)

[buzz_knox]

It's not about preferences or beliefs. It's whether or not someone who is stating a specific conclusion based on specific evidence actually has observed said evidence and has the qualifications to draw the conclusions asserted. Deadmeat2 came off as an ME, who would have somewhat of a basis of knowledge for determining effects of different rounds and determining how said effects differ based on penetration, wound characteristics, etc. Except, he's not an ME. He's a forensic pathologist. He will typically be seeing bodies that need identification or evidence gathered, not the cause of death determined. Some of the critical wound characteristics will no longer be there because the bodies are often partially/totally decomposed. The bodies on the autopsy table Deadmeat2 speaks of will often consist principally of bones. Any data on bullet type will only be determined if the bullet is recovered.

After all that has been discussed on this thread, if you buy his argument, that's great. But understand you are doing so based on not much more than the same anecdotal evidence you get at a gun shop, combined on your own particular prejudices for or against a particular caliber.

[xiphur]

I posted this link yesterday. Read it all the way through so you don't come to an early conclusion.

"stopping power" (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=210078)

[.45&TKD]

All things being equal, said BG will bleed out faster from a .45 than a 9mm; given the same shot placement and similar bullet type and style.

If I'm gonna carry, I'm gonna carry the biggest caliber I can shoot effectively, which is the .45 acp.

If I need a pocket gun, its a snub 357 mag in the front pocket, again the biggest caliber I can shoot effectively that fits in my pocket.

[Jamie C.]

All things being equal, said BG will bleed out faster from a .45 than a 9mm

Y'know, I keep hearing this touted as the reason for carrying a "bigger" caliber, but, the truth is, it's not exactly correct.

A human body is neither a static nor "constant" thing... A person that has a higher heart rate or blood pressure is probably going to "bleed out" faster from a 9mm wound than someone with lower pressure/heart rate with the exact same wound from a .45 or .50 caliber bullet.

Then there's the size of the person's arteries and veins... Tear through one, and it's only going to "leak" at a given rate, no matter if there's a quarter of an inch of it missing, or two feet. It also doesn't much matter if there's an exit wound, since a person can bleed to death internally just as quickly as they would with blood gushing out on the ground.

The blood volume or capacity of the person being shot is also going to play a pretty big role in how fast he/she drops, as well as things like how quickly their blood clots, how sensitive their brain is to shock, etc.

The bottom line is that none of these variables are apt to be affected much by a couple of hundredths of an inch of projectile diameter... it's going to come down to circumstance, the individual that's being shot and his/her physiology, the location of the wound, and....plain old blind luck.

And as for our wanna-be coroner/forensic pathologist.... all he can really tell you is what rounds where present in the corpses he's viewed, and how many of those rounds there were... I seriously doubt he can tell you how long the person was or was not active after the bullets struck.

So, while this thread and the one that it links to is an interesting read, there's really not much that can be gained from it, as far as a "which is the better caliber" argument goes.



J.C.

[texagun]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46/w5lx/closed.jpg

[clang]

I asked DM2 twice on the S&W thread why he advocates the 125g .357mag when his whole argument was based on bigger and more massive bullets. (pgs 19&20). Wouldn't his logic prefer 158gr or 180gr bullets?

He neglected to answer both times. Made a general comment something about shooting the messenger....

[Sergeant Sabre]

You look at the bullet after you remove it.

The bullets for all of those rounds are the same. (Except the .357, which differs only by two thousands of one inch). I think it would be like trying to determine if an animal was shot with a .300 whisper, .308, .30-06, .300WinMag, or .300WbyMag by looking only at the recovered bullet (if any) and the wound.

[middy]

I don't understand the "bigger is better" thing either...

Wouldn't that make the 44 special a better hunting round than a 308?

If velocity isn't important, then why are rifles so much more effective than handguns?

[BluesBear]

#1 Very few badguys reload

#2 Most major ammo companies have different style/weight bullets for different calibers (except for .38 special & .357 Magnum)

#3 He also has the benefit of the incident reports that will have notes on recovered casings, recovered firearms, etc.

[Biker]

Middy...

You're comparing apples and canaries. In any case, if the .308 is going at the same velocity as the .44, the 44 is better.;)

Biker

[pcf]

#3 He also has the benefit of the incident reports that will have notes on recovered casings, recovered forearms, etc.

Someone missed that memo about disarming suspects.:eek:

[JohnKSa]

Also, at autopsy, how does one distinguish between the wound from a 9x18, 9x19, .357 magnum, .357 Sig, and .380ACP?Actually, he finally admitted that: "...you're absolutely right that often the ME can't tell what caliber and/or bullet was recovered at autopsy, and I clearly stated that in one of my earlier posts. "

My emphasis added.

[MCgunner]

But, I'm sure the .45ACP would be easily distinguishable. The body probably comes in two pieces...:rolleyes:

[Deer Hunter]

Two pieces, MC? In all the reports I've heard, they could only find one piece. Seems like the upper half was desintigrated.

The 9mm will kill someone. The .45 ACP will kill someone. I like the .45 ACP. I like the 9mm. I believe it all comes down to luck and skill, and not the size of the bullet.

[Biker]

True enough most part, Deer Hunter, but if the size of the bullet doesn't matter, why not use a .22?

Biker:)

[Deer Hunter]

I don't know, I think those .224 caliber bullets have killed plenty of people, havn't they? ;)

But I assume you mean a .22 LR rimfire. They've killed many people, and yuo can't ignore that fact. You people that point out that "If the size of the bullet doesn't matter, why not use a .22?" annoy me. You have to aim a .45 just like you have to aim a 9mm. Do you think a limb-shot with a .45 will be more effective than a body mass shot with a 9mm? Don't tell us that bullet size is everything, because it really isn't. Shoot a man in the head or heart with a .22 and he wont go very far. Shoot a man in the leg with a .45 and he'll continue shooting at you.

Shot placement is crucial, because handgun rounds are weak. If these bullets were meant to stop a man in one shot, then all the police would be issued single-shot pistols to save money on bullets. But, they are not. If the guy doesn't go down after one bullet, do you sit there and contemplate how he is not dead, or do you continue fireing?

[Biker]

a) Shot placement is *the* most important factor, never said otherwise.

b) All things being equal, a bigger hole is better. Can you argue that this is not true? If a 45 caliber hole is no better than a 9mm hole, why is a 9mm hole better than a 22?

BTW, sorry to annoy you.

Biker;)

[MCgunner]

but if the size of the bullet doesn't matter, why not use a .22?

Because, the .22LR packs a whoppin' 75 ft lbs, unless of course, you're talkin' the thousand +ft lbs a .223 is makin' out of an M16. That's a pretty fair man stopper.;) No worse apples and oranges than .45 vs .22LR in my mind. Just shows energy DOES matter. The .45ACP makes up to about 550 ft lbs in some loads. That's pretty hot. That's hotter than I can get out of any 9mm. That does not mean the 9 is ineffective and it sure is chambered in easy to carry pistols. The .45 demands IWB.

The .38 special has killed an aweful lot of people and it isn't near the level of the 9 or the .45. With modern loads, it's an even more effective cartridge today than it has been in the past. The old 158 grain lead round nose was pretty pathetic. the FBI load has a good track record.

[Biker]

Ah, but the argument is about bullet *diameter*, yes? I believe that I said "All things being equal"...;)

Biker

[Deer Hunter]

All things being equal, a .1 diameter difference wont harm much. And if you are counting on that .1 inch to save your ass, then you need more target practice.

But all things are not equal. There are too many variable to say which is better in each given situation. I assume the .45 would be more adequate than a 9mm, but don't count it out. As already mentioned, the .38 special has a great record.

[BluesBear]

You have to bring some Pi to the party.

When you compare 9mm to .45 you not really talking about .10"
That's linear thinking.
You're comparing circumfrence ot area of a circle.
Unless you're shooting some sort of wierd square bullets.

[xiphur]

:( i guess nobody even bothered to read the link i posted. puts a lot of arguments to rest.

[JohnKSa]

if the size of the bullet doesn't matter, why not use a .22?It's always possible to choose an extreme case to make a credible sounding but not so useful point.

Sort of like saying if a .22 is so impotent then why do we bother to exercise gun safety when handling rimfires?

Or "proving" the effectiveness of a caliber by challenging someone to stand in front of it.

Ok, that level of persistence deserves an answer. ;)

There are no experts claiming that a .22 rimfire is as effective as a 9mm. However, there is definitely evidence to suggest that WITHIN THE SERVICE PISTOL CALIBER CLASS similarities in performance are more marked than the performance differences. (Yes, regardless of bullet diameter.)

So while it's not GENERALLY correct to argue that bullet diameter doesn't matter, it is possible to support the argument that bullet diameter (or any other specific ballistic parameter one chooses) is largely irrelevant WITHIN THE SERVICE PISTOL CALIBER CLASS.

xiphur,

There are credible challenges to much of the information on the website you posted. It is certainly an overstatement to say that ANYTHING currently available on this topic puts much of anything "to rest." That is precisely the reason that these discussions drag on interminably. If there were really anything that was truly conclusive, it would put a quick end to all such debates.

[BluesBear]

xiphur, do not despair.


There will always be those who continue to debate simply because they passionately want their beliefs to be correct. At some time in our life we are all quilty of this.



And then there are those who just plain refuse to be educated by facts. :neener:

[Jamie C.]

And then there are those who just plain refuse to be educated by facts. :neener:

True.... but it'd also be really helpful if people had all of the facts, rather than just some of 'em, and a whole lot of opinion and speculation (often passed off as fact ).

I mean, there's minor little details like how much energy is enough, and at what point is more than that just wasted? Anybody got a quick formula for how much energy per square inch/millimeter/whatever human tissue can absorb before it gives way and allows the projectile to just keep on going? This'll have to be some kind of average, of course, since none of us are really the same.... Might take more to break your hide than mine... might take less.

Then again, if someone could figure out how to make a perfect synthetic replica of a human body, then make it in varying sizes... But no, that won't work either, since it removes the mental aspect of what happens when a person is shot....

So... it looks like the debate will continue.... at least until somebody invents the phaser. :D :evil: ;)

Ah well... it gives me something to read, on those nights when I can't sleep, and there's nothing worth watching on the TV.... :p



J.C.

[MCgunner]

When you compare 9.. to .45 you not really talking about .10"
That's linear thinking.
You're comparing circumfrence ot area of a circle.
Unless you're shooting some sort of wierd square bullets.

I'll state this again, the idea that the bigger diameter bullet will help you hit a vital where the 9mm would have missed amounts to 1/2 of .1" or .05 inches from center of the bullet (radius). This has nothing to do with surface area. If you were .025" from hitting the heart with a 9mm, the .45 would nick the heart muscle, so what?

Biker, in your example of the .22 and the .45, you say all things are equal, but diameter? I say you're wrong, the standard pressure .45 is packin' 360 ft lbs to the .22's 75 or so. Velocity and mass are much less, therefore energy is less and you're comparing an apple to an orange between the .22 and the .45. With the 9mm, mass is less, but velocity is higher. Since energy is proportional to the square of velocity, even though the mass is less, the 9mm still packs around 360 ft lbs in a non-+P load.

Carry your big bullet gun. It will work. I just don't see why you (or anyone else) are so anxious to deride the 9mm. You think it won't hurt you? The statistics suggest otherwise. We all have our reasons, delusional or not, for carrying what we do. Mine is 11 rounds of +P at 400+ ft lbs that rides in a 14 ounce gun in my pocket that is 100% functional and that will shoot to point of aim and shoot into 3.5" at 25 yards. That makes me feel warm and fuzzy on the bad side of town. I ain't knockin' the .45 here, I just know better than to think it's much better than the 9x19 for killin' Homo sapiens.

[bama6]

I could go either way on the 9mm. I have to 9x18 makarovs for home and auto defense. But I only use hollow points for that reason. When I am at the range I use standard balls. But I also keep (my big brother) a Ruger Super Blackhawk single action revolver. (just in case)


just rember guns dont kill,people do.

[pcf]

I have received this from a reliable internet source, who is putting his life in danger to get the word out.......

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was actually killed with a prototype Sig p226 Navy SEEL pistol chambered in 45acp.

The explosions you see at the "safe house" were actually caused by two .45 ball rounds fired from an "operators" prototype Sig. The BATF was fearful that criminals would start buying these pistols, so as a courtesy the Military said the destruction was caused by PGMs.

That's why everyone should carry a 45acp.

From another reliable source, I heard that NYPD switched to 9mm from 38spcl, because the 38 revolvers were too deadly and presented too much danger to criminals.

(I can't back any of this up with factual information)

[Biker]

MCgunner...

I'm not downing the nine, I own two of 'em. I carry a 45LC most of the time though. My point of contention is, put very simply (I'm a simple guy), the bigger the hole, all thing being equal, the better.
For someone to argue differently would be to say that the size of the hole doesn't matter.

Biker

[JohnKSa]

My point of contention is, put very simply (I'm a simple guy), the bigger the hole, all thing being equal, the better.All things are not equal, and that's the point. What you give up in diameter you get back in other ways. That's why the service pistol class calibers are all pretty similar in performance. And that's beside the fact that the practical differences in this class of pistol are really pretty insignificant.

You can't oversimplifyand get a useful result unless you take your argument to the extreme. Any attempt to reduce stopping power to a simple measurement of one or two parameters (i.e. diameter, velocity, momentum, energy, expansion, penetration, etc.) is doomed to failure. If it were that simple, this debate would have ended before it even had a chance to get going good. Maybe a century ago or more.

[BluesBear]

MCgunner, I don't know why you quoted me and then rebutted someone else?
:confused:
Perhaps you have confused me with someone else?


I haven't said that 9mm wasn't good enough.
I haven't said that .45 is better.

In the comment you quoted I was merely pointing out the folly of those whose standard comment is "Well, it's only .10" different."
Which, by the way, I don't recall you saying.
Which means that comment was not directed to you.


Since we're discussing a three dimensional object you have to look at it as such. You can not do a proper comparison with a one dimensional comment.

People are quick to quote energy as foot-pounds to illustrate how one bullet compares to another. But that's incorrect since energy is simply a calculation of weight and velocity. And when you double the velocity you quadruple the energy. But do you quadruple the wounding ability?

You can have two bullets with the same paper energy that will react very differently when rapidly inserted into living tissue.

The ability to create a wound relies on more factors than simple foot pounds.
You HAVE to take into account the size and the shape of the projectile.

It's a whole lot more complicated than just speed.
It's a whole lot more complicated than just size.
It's a whole lot more complicated than just shape.
It's a whole lot more complicated than just weight.

You have to consider ALL of the factors together.
Anything less is just mathematical masterbation.

[JohnKSa]

You have to consider ALL of the factors together.Including a good many that you did not list--several of which are very poorly understood even by the experts and/or virtually impossible to quantify in any useful manner.

[Checkman]

I'm authorized to carry a Glock 19, Glock 26 and a S&W Model 49 'Bodyguard' (38 spc). I also have a Remington 870 police model in my car. I feel like I'm well armed.

The G19 rides in my duty holster and the G26 rides in a holster velcroed to my vest. I also carry an additional 15 round magazine attached to my vest. I'll probably never need all that firepower, but it sure is comforting to know that it's there.:evil:

If nothing else I have a duty-load of 72 115 grain Federal Hydra shok rounds on my person and ten rounds of 00 buck and slug for my shotgun. My S&W is usually stashed in my car. Lots of metal.

They might not be the biggest bullets but I have alot of them.Sometimes you have to make do with what you've got - or what you're authorized to carry.:D


Guess that will have to do me.

[MCgunner]

MCgunner, I don't know why you quoted me and then rebutted someone else?


Here's the part of my post that rebutted your post.....

I'll state this again, the idea that the bigger diameter bullet will help you hit a vital where the 9mm would have missed amounts to 1/2 of .1" or .05 inches from center of the bullet (radius). This has nothing to do with surface area. If you were .025" from hitting the heart with a 9mm, the .45 would nick the heart muscle, so what?

[Biker]

Isn't nicking the aorta better than not nicking it? It's strange that I would even have to ask that question.
Given a choice between nicking the aorta with a 45 or missing it with a 9mm, what choice would you make?

Biker

[DoctorWho]

McGunner posted:

"You neglect the needs of proper concealment to meet the letter of the law and the needs of the armed citizen."

I understand the needs part, but what does concealment and the letter of tha Law mean ?
I have CCW in WA State, and the law only stipulates concealed, it does not say it can't bulge.


"A subcompact 9 happens to be the smallest, lightest service caliber pistol available."

I have a pocket sized Bersa Mini Firestorm in .45 acp as a CCW.
It is as small as most 9mm's.

"The .357 mag in a 2" is little more powerful than the 410 ft lbs I get from a P11 using +P. It fits in a large pocket and weighs 14 ounces unloaded, which means I will have it with me when the SHTF. My 35 ounce K frame sized .357 mag and my P90 will be at home in the safe in all likelihood."

I will always CCW what I have.
If that is a 9mm, fine, but I prefer a .45 acp.

[MCgunner]

Isn't nicking the aorta better than not nicking it? It's strange that I would even have to ask that question.
Given a choice between nicking the aorta with a 45 or missing it with a 9mm, what choice would you make?

We're talkin' 5/100 inch here. :rolleyes: That's my point. What's that, about the width of a thumb nail, maybe a little more? Depends on your thumb nails I reckon.



I understand the needs part, but what does concealment and the letter of tha Law mean ?
I have CCW in WA State, and the law only stipulates concealed, it does not say it can't bulge.

Texas law states that it can't be noticable by "the casual bystander". I just don't want that "casual bystander" to be a cop looking at the bulge in my waste at 4 o'clock. I'd like to keep my license.

I have a pocket sized Bersa Mini Firestorm in .45 acp as a CCW.
It is as small as most 9mm's.

And how much does it weigh? I know it only takes one .45 to blow a man in half, but I can carry up to 13 rounds flush fit in the 9, though I only have 10 round mags for it. All that in a pocket with 14 ounce unloaded weight. That's just hard to beat in a pocket gun.

I will always CCW what I have.
If that is a 9mm, fine, but I prefer a .45 acp.

Whatever floats your boat. I never stated that the .45 doesn't work. I do prefer subcompact 9s, but that's me. I don't buy that it'll bounce off flesh, either. :rolleyes: My needs in concealment require tiny, light weight guns. I have a .45, but I hardly ever carry it and never in summer, though I shoot it quite well. It's an excellent gun, very accurate and 100% reliable with everything I've tried in it.

I don't know a whole lot about it, but I'd look into the Patriot .45 if I was a big bore nut. It looks quite compact, though probably a bit large for pocket carry. Hard to find one, though. I hear they have a rather low production rate.

[Biker]

MCgunner...

It's aaalll about edges. I'll take 'em where I can get 'em.
Now, you didn't answer my question - is it better to nick the aorta or not?

Biker

[longeyes]

We're talkin' 5/100 inch here. That's my point. What's that, about the width of a thumb nail, maybe a little more? Depends on your thumb nails I reckon.

What, though, is the difference in the size of the wound channel or temporary cavity, both calibers using hollow-points?

[kbheiner7]

I think someone posted this somewhere in this thread, but the .45 is about 24% larger in frontal area than the 9mm.

[MCgunner]

I don't believe my edge is measured in hundredths of an inch, but it might be measured in tenths of seconds...;) You nick that aorta with one shot while I put 2 9mms in the heart. The end results will be the same, I reckon.

And, how come everyone lauds the .357 magnum if energy has no place in this equation. it is, but two thousandths bigger than the 9, ya know. It should be totally ineffective, too, if the 9mm is ineffective, right???? I've never quite understood that of the big bore crowd. They say the 9 is no better than a .22, but the .357 is acceptable? Don't make sense to me, not if you don't believe energy isn't part of the terminal ballistics equation, if you believe the ONLY thing that matters is how big the bullet is, you should shun the .357 magnum as totally inadequate just like this thread shuns the 9mm.

[MidnightRambler]

Did anyone notice another poster in that thread who claimed to know the pathologist, yet the pathologist never responded when that person inquired?

Also, after the pathologist said he was going on to other subjects on the S&W board, he has disappeared. No more postings.

He has knowledge, but I'm going to take what he claims about working in the morgue with a grain of salt.

[BluesBear]

For those who want to discuss (even though is seems most just want to cuss) the credentials of a person on the S&W board....
Why don't you do that over there?
What good does it do in here? Except waste electrons.

To me it's the same as talking behind someone's back. :barf:

[JohnKSa]

Now, you didn't answer my question - is it better to nick the aorta or not?It's better. And you're just fine with your .45ACP (or whatever caliber you carry/prefer). But you really need to understand that hanging your hat on a single parameter (such as diameter) is going to result in a very flawed (oversimplified, if you prefer) understanding of terminal ballistics.

There are effects in terminal ballistics that can favor a smaller diameter bullet over a larger one, and it is entirely possible that in some instances, even given the same shot placement, a smaller caliber might very well be the one that nicks the aorta while the larger caliber does not.

It simply is not possible to try to reduce handgun terminal performance to a few easily measured parameters--certainly not to just one.What good does it do in here? Except waste electrons.I'm not going to register over there just to rebut a single post--however many pages it may eventually grow to.

Rebutting it here does just as much good as promoting it here, I suppose.

[BluesBear]

But you really need to understand that hanging your hat on a single parameter (such as diameter) is going to result in a very flawed (oversimplified, if you prefer) understanding of terminal ballistics.It simply is not possible to try to reduce handgun terminal performance to a few easily measured parameters--certainly not to just one.
AMEN!





However I seriously doubt that this thread will change anyone's mind.
Most people treat ballistics like a religion instead of a science.
They base their beliefs on faith.

[JohnKSa]

Most people treat ballistics like a religion instead of a science.I agree--but I believe that "Most" is a drastic understatement. ;)

[buzz_knox]

For those who want to discuss (even though is seems most just want to cuss) the credentials of a person on the S&W board....
Why don't you do that over there?
What good does it do in here? Except waste electrons.



Well, the questions were asked on the S&W board. No substantive answers were given, and Deadmeat2 left after giving his spiel. So, debating it here is as good as anywhere else. And those who may be influenced by thiis kind of "definitive" information need to understand that the weight to be given it might be less than the supposed credentials justify.

[MCgunner]

However I seriously doubt that this thread will change anyone's mind.
Most people treat ballistics like a religion instead of a science.
They base their beliefs on faith.

In agreement here, too. :D Amazing, ain't it, how folks can get so into something as to defend it with such voracity? Or, maybe it's just a hatred for the other caliber? I don't know. Whatever. I've an open mind toward such things. I prefer science over gun writer hype when trying to understand something. I'll never totally understand terminal ballistics, though, but I don't feel real bad about that since the "experts" don't seem to totally understand it, either. :D It ain't as cut and dry as exterior ballistics which everyone agrees with and which isn't that hard to understand and for which there are much fewer variables.

I do know I have a .45 ACP and a .45 Colt and love 'em both. I don't carry 'em, too danged big and in the case of the Colt, heavy. In a smaller revolver like Biker has, the .45 Colt is certainly a viable self defense caliber, though. I sure can't argue his choice even if I do argue that the nine isn't the wimp everyone seems to think it is.

Last couple of days, I've been totin' a .38 special revolver. :D I like that gun when I'm going fishing (yesterday) 'cause it's stainless/alloy (Taurus 85UL) and if I slip off the boat in salt water, I'd worry less about the finish. :D It's also a danged good shark tranquilizer. :D

[Biker]

MCgunner...

The nine is just fine. I simply like big bullets. :)
Sugar Ray would whup my butt in short order, but Mike Tyson, in his day, would do it NOW!

Heh heh...

Biker

[MCgunner]

Yes, Biker, but Mohamed Ali, in his day, was smaller than some of the guys he wooped, but he floated like a butterfly, stung like a bee. He was quick and powerful. :D He wouldn't have had to bite Iron Mike's ears off to kick his butt, I'm betting. :D

[Biker]

I give up...

Biker

[MCgunner]

BWAAAAAAA, ha, ha! The ear thing got ya, eh? :D

[cookekdjr]

You have to aim a .45 just like you have to aim a 9mm. Do you think a limb-shot with a .45 will be more effective than a body mass shot with a 9mm? Don't tell us that bullet size is everything, because it really isn't. Shoot a man in the head or heart with a .22 and he wont go very far. Shoot a man in the leg with a .45 and he'll continue shooting at you.

Based on my observation, a limb shot with a .45 is generally more effective than a body mass shot with a 9mm. Generally speaking, the .45 (in almost any common commercial loading) will shatter the arm or leg of the person shot. By contrast, most 9mm loads used in the shootings I've investigated were horrendously weak. (This is not to start a caliber war, I carry a G19 and I think the subsonic 147gr loads are great, as well as the +p+ 124-127 gr loads; but the typical 9mm loads today stink).

RE: the 22lr, its pretty hard to get a good heart or head shot, and I've never seen someone win a gun battle with the 22lr (that is, one guy has a 22lr and the other guy had any firearm at all). I 've seen some one shot kills with the 22lr, but the victim was unarmed, and didn't know it was coming. RE: shoot a man in the leg with the .45 and he'll continue shooting at you, yeah well, I've never seen that and don't expect to. I have seen plenty of "shoot a man in the leg with a .45 and his leg will shatter and he'll collapse on the floor crying like a baby and will need an ambulance and reconstructive surgery if you don't give him a follow-up shot to the vitals or he doesn't bleed to death from the severed arteries in his leg".
I've seen that one and its variations plenty of times.
Shoot the most powerful round that you can shoot accurately.
Gotta get back to court. Y'all have a nice day.
-David

[das028]

"Based on my observation, a limb shot with a .45 is generally more effective than a body mass shot with a 9mm."


Thats a first!

[LightningJoe]

Cookekdjr:


It would be a boney-legged fellow indeed for whom a leg-shot would not more likely miss than hit a bone. Moreoever, 9mm has plenty of penetration and its kinetic energy is similar to that of .45 ACP. Your assertions are better suited to a JHP vs FMJ viewpoint rather than a 9mm vs 45 one.

[LightningJoe]

Cookekdjr:

Let me also say this (and it is not lawyer-bashing only an idea). As an engineer, I look at hard data every day and try to figure out what it means, if anything. It occurs to me, though, that a trial lawyer decides what conclusion he wants and then tries to make the data support it, even if there are other or even better conclusions that could be derived from it.

Your conclusions regarding 9mm vs 45 ACP are so clearly delineated and unambiguous that they are perceptibly different from the conclusions of any other person I have ever heard discussing the subject and they suggest that the difference in effectiveness between the two calibers is one of the more conspicuous phenomena in the universe. That you are the first person to detect this is then hard to explain.

[BluesBear]

Since I do change the comments in my signature every few months or so let me post this here for posterity.

Devote less time to worrying (about your ammo) -- and more time learning to shoot better.
(Charles E. Petty - American Cop issue #1)

[cookekdjr]

It would be a boney-legged fellow indeed for whom a leg-shot would not more likely miss than hit a bone. Moreoever, 9mm has plenty of penetration and its kinetic energy is similar to that of .45 ACP. Your assertions are better suited to a JHP vs FMJ viewpoint rather than a 9mm vs 45 one.
Let me also say this (and it is not lawyer-bashing only an idea). As an engineer, I look at hard data every day and try to figure out what it means, if anything. It occurs to me, though, that a trial lawyer decides what conclusion he wants and then tries to make the data support it, even if there are other or even better conclusions that could be derived from it.

Your conclusions regarding 9mm vs 45 ACP are so clearly delineated and unambiguous that they are perceptibly different from the conclusions of any other person I have ever heard discussing the subject and they suggest that the difference in effectiveness between the two calibers is one of the more conspicuous phenomena in the universe. That you are the first person to detect this is then hard to explain.

Oh, I forgot to mention I'm an engineer, too...so now I'm right. :)
Seriously, prosecutors are not trial lawyers in that we have a conclusion, so we think of a way to make the facts fit. That's what a defense attorney does (and they will tell you this is what they do).
Prosecutors are essentially investigators who present the case that the evidence has lead them through. But enough of that.
A few points:
1. These are my observations. They are not my opinions, they are what I have seen. My observation is, the .45 causes much more devastating wounds. This is what I have seen with my eyes, not what I have read about from gelatin tests in a gun rag. My opinion is, use the most powerful caliber you can shoot well.

2. RE: hp v. fmj, my observation is, handgun bullets rarely expand in human tissues. My opinion is, based on reading from the FBI's tactical firearms website, that they simply don't reach the velocity necessary to expnad, but that's just my opinion. All I know is, I've never seen them expand in human tissues and my buddies at the ME's office see it rarely or never.

3. My observation is, the 9mm has a very wide range of performance.
Sometimes it mimics .357 SIG, sometimes it mimics .380 ACP. My further observation (from looking at the shell casings at the crime scene) is that certain 9mm loading perform much better than others. My opinion is, therefore, that 9mm performance is very load-dependant. In other words, the loads with ballistics similar to a .357 perform like a .357. The ones that are closer to .380 ACP perform like .380 ACP.

As far as my data being unique....well, no its not among people who are actually in the business and pay attention. Most homicide detectives and ME's are not gun-nuts. But if you talk to them, go out to the crime scenes, go to the autopsies, and pay attention, certain patterns emerge. For example, I have never seen anyone walk away from being shot by a .40 S&W. I've seen some people who were shot by it and lived, but they were all disabled by the shot. Some healed up after a stay in the hospital. Some died. But all of them were stopped in their tracks. Now, I'm sure there are some folks who have been able to walk to ER after being shot by the .40, but I've never seen it and I doubt it happens much (it happens so much with the 9mm its common knowledge on the street).
Look, you can just call me a lawyer and ignore what I have to say. Fine by me. But after a decade of dealing with homicides and other firearms assaults as my daily job, I have a pretty accurate idea about how these calibers actually perform on the street. Muzzle energy and velocity can tell you something, but in some ways they are just numbers. A frangible 64gr 9mm load might have 540 lbs of muzzle energy and move at 1949 fps. On paper that eclipses a cheap Winchester White box .40 cal's 165 gr load's 330 lbs of muzzle energy at 949 fps (out of, say, a Glock 27). But I bet you've never met a man that the WWB load won't drop. And that frangible 9mm ammo, with all its muzzle energy and velocity, has a horrific failure rate. Penetration counts, and this stuf has none of it.
Now don't forget, I carry a 9mm. Why? I can hit with it better than anything else, and I use loads I have seen drop people dead right there. But I'm careful what I use. I know the caliber's limitations. It is NOT as good as a .40 or .45, and if I could shoot the .40 or .45 as well, I would carry it. (Actually, I shoot a 1911 in .45 as well as the G19, but then I have a choice to make: 15+1 shots or 8+1; I bought a G19 on a whim to test the plaform and shot it so well I kept it).
Oh, re: the bony leg thing. I don't know why, but most of the leg shots I've seen hit a bone. I don't know why, but they do. I've seen some grazing wounds, and a couple of through and through fleshwounds. But most hit bone. With most 9mm loads, they glance off and/or chip the bone, and the shooting victim runs away. With the .357/.40/.45/better 9mm loads, the bone shatters and shooting victim is disabled.
Anyway, I've posted all this in one form or another before. This is what i've seen.
The sad thing is that now I spend most of my time doing long-term investigations with the FBI on other crimes, so I don't see dead bodies every week and collect more data on this stuff (well, its not sad, but I do miss the homicide stuff). I did have a complicated drug-deal-gone-bad murder-conspiracy blah blah case recently. The winners of the major gun battle carried .40's and .45's btw. Guess what the losers had?
-David

[JohnKSa]

The winners of the major gun battle carried .40's and .45's btw. Guess what the losers had?I once had an opportunity to speak at length with an LEO who had done some extensive study on police shootings.

His first epiphany came when he realized that the main reason that the .45ACP was so effective in police shootings was because during the timeframe he studied, it was only rarely a standard issue weapon.

In other words, the cops carrying .45ACP pistols were usually buying their own and they were making that painful expenditure on a meager police salary because they were "gunny" types. As a consequence, they tended to practice more and--naturally--they shot much better when things went south.

Initially he thought that the .45ACP was far more effective than the other calibers it was compared to. Further investigation revealed that the impressive results were due primarily to better shot placement from LEOs who actually practiced with their weapons.

I think that this effect is also seen in the non-LEO world to one extent or another, and that is what immediately sprang to mind when I read the sentence I quoted at the beginning of this post.

BTW, I'll be nice and NOT say what immediately sprang to mind when I read THIS sentence. "a limb shot with a .45 is generally more effective than a body mass shot with a 9mm." ;)

If a statement like that could be supported with even a minimum level of confidence based on scientific observations, then why does this debate continue interminably on every gun forum around the world? Why are people still studying terminal ballistics? Why are people still bothering to shoot jello with 9mm? Why are superpowers issuing the caliber? Why are all ammunition companies loading defensive ammo in this caliber?

Once it could be shown that a limb shot from .45ACP was generally more effective than a body shot from 9mm, the debate would come to an abrupt end. The evidence would have been published with tremendous fanfare, people would be afraid to risk their lives by carrying a 9mm instead of a .45ACP, and there wouldn't be an LEO in the nation being issued anything other than a .45ACP.

Or are we to believe that no one else has tried to correlate the effectiveness of defensive gunshot wounds with the caliber used?

[cookekdjr]

Hi John. RE: closer look at .45 performance, I was comparing the results of primarily "spary and pray" use by gangbangers. So better shot placement was not a factor.
Also, re: .45 limb hit over 9mm body hit, I need to clarify that. The typical 9mm shooter on the street uses some really weak ammo. Second, just because a shot hits the body aka "torso" does not mean it affects the vitals. There are alot of near-meaningless fleshwounds. Many of the victims in the autopsies I saw already had a 9mm slug in their body from a previous shooting. I am not kidding. The body scars over these wounds in a hurry and doctors are hesitant to remove the bullets because they aren't doing any harm to the patient. So we see alot of repeat customers (so to speak) on the autopsy table. So the typical 9mm gunshot wound to the body does not do much. It generally has to be a heart or lung shot. This is less true with the 147gr and 124-127 +p+ loads, which typically perform much better.
The larger more powerful calibers, by contrast, tend to make something out of nothing. What I mean is, the shooter misses the torso he's aiming toward (or he's just spraying and praying) but the bullet strikes a bone (often in the leg or pelvic region, sometimes a shoulder or arm) and shatters it, and/or in the process severs or destroys a number of major arteries. The victim bleeds rapidly. They often die.
Please note that I am not saying that a .45 shot to the limbs will outperform any 9mm load's shot to the torso; that is simply not true b/c many 9mm loads are quite good. I am simply saying that the average crappy 9mm load used on the street performs very poorly, even in torso shots, and the bigger calibers perform very well, even on limb shots.
Ok, now back to court. I hope everyone out there has a great day.
-David

[up_onus]

This topic was beat, buried, dug up, beat again, shot, burned, hammered, cut up, shot again, buried, dug up again, drown, shot into space, did some comet action, came back, shot with a silver bullet or 10, poisoned and finally seems to be at rest (minus my new post).

After spending EXTENSIVE time reading this thread....
How could anybody NOT agree that bigger and faster is better? Dont get me wrong, sometimes you cant (dont want to) shoot bigger, (dont want to) cant carry bigger etc... this is like arguing.... my 22 rifle will keep up with your 308? i mean...it kills right?

Biker, I enjoy your posts...... but this one was a repetitive round of i duno...kinda got annoying.

This thread was like a bad movie...I wish I wouldnt have gone to the theatre and watched it.

[JohnKSa]

This thread was like a bad movie...I wish I wouldnt have gone to the theatre and watched it.And yet you "brought it back to the big screen" for an encore viewing...

[Oregongundude]

I have fired my three handguns in the back yard into heavy books and all the rounds will expand most of the time. I noticed my 9mm winchester 9 mm 127 Grain +p+ expand into some nasty hooks in the expanison phase of it's hit. The .40 S&W federal 155 grain hydrashok expands everytime and exhibit the least amount of penetration of the three handguns I have. I estimate that out of my .40 subcompact I will average 10 inches of penetration with the deadly rated .40 S&W caliber round which may be a good thing. On the balistics testing it acheives a 97% "one shot stop" averaging about 9.8 inches of penetration. Both the ranger 9mm and the 180 grain +P Cor bon 45 acp penerate deeper, but don't always expand correctly compared to the .40 S&W. Now that being said a lot of 9 mm rounds shot on the street are ball ammo not high end +P+ hollow points which average in the 90% one shot stops. I like all three of my handguns and shooting a number of things in the back yard with all three I would trust all three handguns with proper shot placement to stop an attacker. I won't stop firing with all three of my handguns until the attack has ended regardless of how many rounds i have to fire, and regardless of which handgun I'm using.

[thealadar]

Now that being said a lot of 9 mm rounds shot on the street are ball ammo not high end +P+ hollow points which average in the 90% one shot stops.
Premium standard pressure loads.. Do exist in 9mm :uhoh:

[Grump]

On the other hand, the U.S. is the handgun murder capitol of the world and the weapon of choice among most thugs is a 9mm.

Uh, it's been years since I last looked at international data, but I thought quite a few "Latin-American" countries had higher overal murder rates than the US, and higher firearms murder rates, and higher handgun murder rates.

Don't over-rate the US of A. In anything. We're neither the best nor the worst in a LOT of things. But we're probably best in more things than second-best or lower...

[Zach S]

Based on my observation, a limb shot with a .45 is generally more effective than a body mass shot with a 9mm.
That reminds me of a converstation I had with a LEO a few years ago. He said he'd been in two shoot-outs in his career. In the first one, the BG was using a 9mm. The officer got hit three times (in his vest), and didnt realize he'd been shot until it was over with.

The second time, the BG was using a .45. When he got hit (once), it knocked the wind out of him. Said it felt like getting hit in the chest with a bat. Before that night he was a die-hard 9mm fan. Afterwards, he carried a .45.

Keep in mind I talked to this guy on the net, he may have been full of bull.

[Borachon]

The typical 9mm shooter on the street uses some really weak ammo.

How do you figure that?

The majority of "street" types acquire their ammo the same way you or I do, and also with another method that you and I hopefully DON'T use. The first way they get ammo is to purchase it. That means they buy it at Wally World, or Ima Gunnut's Surplus "Third World War" House of Ammunition pawnshop. The offerings that they have will be similar...if not exactly the same...as the ammunition you or I purchase.

The second method that they use to acquire ammunition is to steal it...since we are talking about "The Street" here we'd be remiss if we didn't acknowledge this fact. On "The Street" you may find everything that can be stolen out of a UPS truck, or out of someone's house, or out of the back of a police patrol car that got left over night at an officer's house. (Ever read any of those threads on here about "Officer in Trouble Because his MP5 Got Stolen Out of his Car" news stories?) "The Street" may have access...in fact most demonstrably DOES HAVE ACCESS...to ammunition that we as law abiding citizens would be unwilling to have. What might some of these street munitions be? If you read old crime dramas you here about hollowpoints filled with cyanide being used to "rub someone out" all the time. Or explosive bullets. Or armor piercing pistol rounds that some criminal stole off the UPS truck on its way to a police station. "The Street" may...in isolated circumstances...be MORE powerfully armed than you are. At the minimum, it is AS powerfully armed as you are because the ammunition that ends up on "The Street" is stolen from people just like you and me. The bullets that are out their are your old bullets. How well armed are "They"? As well armed as you have been.

That's enough of my rant.

[Borachon]

The second time, the BG was using a .45. When he got hit (once), it knocked the wind out of him.

Isn't there a video floating around here on the High Road where a trooper or deputy is having a man open a box in the back of his truck, and the man turns on the officer and tries to stab him? In that video I believe the officer shoots him....with his .45....and then watches while the guy walks around, has a conversation with the officer about why the officer shot him, and then fights with him later when the officer decides to take him to the pavement. If I remember correctly, the officer's gun was a .45 (don't quote me though) and that he didn't just "wing" the man.Hopefully someone else knows the video and can post it here.

Anyway my point is that you are talking about a few hundreds of an ounce difference in weight between a .45 slug and 9mm, and a couple of hundred feet per second difference in speed between the two. In my opinion, they are essentially the same in regards to their effectiveness in stopping a threat. Both require shot placement to be effective. In fact, it might be better for a shooter to carry a caliber they are UNCOMFORTABLE with. One that they doubt the effectiveness of. If they did this, they would be FAR more inclined to make sure they aimed their meager weapon to get the most benefit.

People have survived being shot with a .308 and larger rifles. Many of them during wartime. Some of these people have continued to fight for long periods of time after being wounded. Arguing about which bullet is better at the pistol level is ridiculous when we know that even rifles are occasionally ineffective in stopping a threat. None of the pistol calibers are truly effective, truth be known, and arguing about the effectiveness of one under powered pocket slug thrower versus another underpowered slug thrower...although amusing to watch and occasionally participate in...seems pointless.

[.357 magnum]

I have always gone on record as prefering the.40 and .45 [I am ex-undercover dectective-seen [TSHTF] many a time. Honestly gentlemen there is a reason we have larger calibers-and there is a reason LE use semi-autos-Bigger bullets and more shots equal a better chance of putting down the perps! I used a revolver, but that is because it was back in the 80's when semi-autos were not as reliable or as accepted by LE as they are now. They make ammunition now days, as I am sure you are all aware of, in the .40 caliber size that comes close to the terminal ballistics of the.357 magnum-- and believe me the .357 is a stopper. Sure you will hear stories of someone who survived being shot by a .357 at close range, but do you know how rare that is? A .40 or .45 with the correct ammo is a very deadly weapon. I have freinds in LE that are amazed at the results of these two calibers with todays ammo. Esp the .40 because of its lesser recoil and mag capacity it is very popular in the LE community.

I wish the best for all of you! You are a great bunch of guys!
Maybe we will never have to use our weapons for a defensive reason, but if we do---- may God Guide your shots, and keep you and yours safe!

[Nathan Williams]

"whump.........whump.........whump" the sound of a dead horse being beat.
My God how long will this argument continue? If people are happy with their
9mm so be it (let them die in peace :neener: ). I happen to prefer my .45auto but dont climb up somebodys :cuss: anytime I hear them say they like a 9mm over a .45. Some people (women) find the 9mm a more comfortable round to handle, less recoil, etc. Any round is better than no round, and a 9mm or anything smaller in your pocket is better than a .45 in the truck. To each their own.

P.S One shot kills are as much about luck as they are about shot placement, how big the projectile is, and so on. Many a person has takena .308, 30-06. 7.62, (insert your choice of caliber here) to the chest and gotten back up. If you really want knockdown power then get a 12ga loaded with 00 buck, or a .50BMG. If not your 9mm has about as much of a chance of killing Mr.Badguy as my .45. My $0.02.

[Soybomb]

http://cyber-byte.com/photos/calibers.gif
Just look at the difference, guys, you could drop the massive bore of the .45 around your attacker from the top and capture him just like a mouse under a bucket.

:neener:

[Borachon]

Sure you will hear stories of someone who survived being shot by a .357 at close range, but do you know how rare that is?

I've got a better idea of it now than I did an hour ago. Being shot with a .357 at all is actually rare. The majority of 357's out there are largish pistols. Not really concealable until the new brand of .357 pocket revolvers started coming out in the last few years. So people can't conceal them as well and they aren't the first weapon reached for. Among those people who are shot with a .357, the majority don't die. And a lot of times, they aren't incapacitated either.

Shot Twice .357 http://www.broomfieldenterprise.com/news/local/27lshot.html

Woman Shot Twice with .357...and survives a jump afterward. http://www.localsource.com/articles/2006/08/25/news_-_record/news/local/doc44ed0696e22c6024574445.txt

Soprano's Actor Shooting Officer to Death. Officer was shot with a .357...and he DID die, I'll grant you, but he shot both suspects 6 times with an off duty .25 caliber AFTER he was shot once in the chest with a .357. So not an immediate stop.
http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/nyc-cop1211,0,2435080.story?coll=ny-entertainment-headlines
And also here. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr/people/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001699654

Girls shot with .357. One in chest. http://www.bouldernews.com/news/local/17adead.html

Cougar Takes it Like a Man
http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/99/jan99/1999n4.htm

School Shooting with .357 in Georgia
6 wounded nobody dies. http://www.cnn.com/interactive/specials/9904/school.shootings/content/conyers.html

If you'll do a search on the Net in news articles you'll that people being shot with a .357, or with an type round, and surviving is not uncommon. In fact it is more common for someone to be wounded and not die from a .357, or from any bullet, than for someone to die.
I'm not saying that the .357 is a bad round for self defense. It's not. What I am trying to point out though is that a belief that a pistol bullet, or that any bullet, is going to substitute for being a good shot is not a wise policy. Even when shots are perfect and would normally be fight ending shots, they don't always work. Even with .357. But the same is true for all guns.

[.357 magnum]

I do apologize I did say survive and I meant stopped. When I was undercover I used a smith and wesson .357 mag with a three inch barrel for my carry piece. In most cases it stopped the perp.

My whole reason for participating in this thread is the people on THR are good people that work have families etc. They have guns for recreation and defense. They have a right and a need to use the best to defend themselves.

I had to deal with mostly narcotics dealers who were also murders a lot of times and had organized crime connections. I was in LE for just under 8 years. I was shot twice in the right hip and it shattered. [you guessed it a .45] I am 50 years old an 11 years into my second hip replacement on the right side. [left side is good] I still work out every other day [not an ounce of fat] and keep my eyes open. [ I have a much more mundane job outside of LE now.] What I took away from my experience is a Love for LE and Guns. The guys I worked with back then were great. We had none of that corruption crap. We watched out for eachother and took a lot of bad guys off the street.

My advise is use a semi-auto and shoot the perp at least twice in the chest-you may have multiple attackers these days. If they break into your house they are not there to sell you girl scout cookies-take them out! Firepower and multiple shots. I keep a .40 cal semi-auto on my night stand I have 15 in the mag and one in the chamber. My back up is a new 14 round .45 acp. In the .40 I use 165 gr winchester sxt [sure to open] In the back-up I have 230 gr winchester sxt. I practice with the same grains in each caliber.

I hope the people on THR never have to use their guns in a defensive situation. But if you do remember fire power and multiple hits! Take the Bad guy down! Remember it is you and your family you are ptotecting the bad guy does not deserve to get up again.

My best to all of you! This is a great site!

[Borachon]

Thank you for your service in law enforcement from both your community and by extention to the nation.

I think that my perception on what constitutes a "good" gun have changed as time has gone on. When I was younger, I felt safer with larger bore handguns and made the .45 1911 my handgun of choice.

As time has gone by and as I have experienced certain events in my life, my opinion...and it is exactly that...has changed in regard to handguns. Whereas before I valued the big bore, I now value the reliability of the handgun in performance, and accuracy. The caliber isn't as important to me now as being able to accurately fire and being sure the gun fires when you pull the trigger.

9mm, .40, .45, or .357 aren't as important to me as being able to hit the target.

[1557]

Borachon,that trooper you referred is Mike Ralston of the Ga.state Patrol.
And yes,it was one of the first S&W .45's to be used by GSP.
That occured in Gordon county(Calhoun) Ga.
My partner and I have backed up "Miami Mike" on many felony drug stops
along I-75 when I worked with the SO there.
Van Keller ,a trainer for GSP,has written many gun articles in the past and several for Combat handguns. He was testing the S&W .45 for the GSP when Mike was at the height of his drug interdiction stops.He sent the .45 down from the next county,Whitfield,for Mike to use ,as he felt that he needed the
additional firepower of an auto pistol over the revolvers they were issued at that time.
When that man went to trial the judge actually told him that he thought the trooper used remarkable restraint by only shooting him once.He went up the river. I've fired that particular weapon myself a couple of times. It was a good one,a 645,but very heavy and bulky.

[Odd Job]

Firstly a side note for JohnKSa about vascular damage: I have seen cases (not many, granted) where intimal flaps were found in the arteries of gunshot victims by means of angiography. In these cases the vessels were patent but partially occluded. These were differentiated from extrinsic compression (by haematoma) by the shape of the filling defect. That differentiation was done by the South African radiologists involved in the case. Certainly though, your money would be reasonably safe if you bet on a handgun round not being able to cause tactically significant incapacitation by means of damaging vessels by the effects of the temporary cavity. Nevertheless the presence of the intimal flaps needs to be considered if the question is asked regarding temporary cavity as a possible cause of these filling defects in vessels.

I'll tell you gents straight away what my background is, so you can dismiss or take stock of what I have to say from the outset. My primary qualification is diagnostic radiographer. My training and experience is from SA, and the hospital where I worked in JHB would see about 150 gunshot victims every month. I worked more than 3 years permanent night shift there and I saw many gunshot victims, somewhere around 3,000 probably more (if I include my day-shift years and training too). But the really interesting thing I was able to do was conduct formal research into live gunshot victims in 2002 and for that study, I had a sample of 150 victims from a pool of 542, in a four month period. Here is what I set out to do for my research cases:

1) Record all the clinical findings upon admission, including the location of skin breaches.
2) Photograph all the wounds.
3) Examine any clothing accompanying the patient and photograph any relevant breaches in the fabric.
4) X-ray the victims, or supervise the X-raying of the victims, with careful instructions to mark the surface breaches with radio-opaque markers for radiologocal trajectory plotting.
5) Document the treatment of the patient.
6) Accompany the patient to theatre, in certain circumstances.
7) Review the notes for surgical findings.
8) Photograph any recovered projectiles.
9) Develop an overall understanding of the teminal trajectory of the projectile.

This is quite a big project and I am still not finished with it, but I'll give my impression as it relates to this discussion. As many have pointed out, there can be miraculous escapes for many of the victims. I would say that typically in my research an escape was due to one of the following:

1) A terminal trajectory that penetrated to a reasonable depth but missed all the vital structures.
2) A terminal trajectory that was subject to deflection, away from a vital structure. Deflecting structures in my cases were items of clothing (such as belts), bony structures such as the skull, or in some cases soft tissue deflections (the projectile suffered a course change without any hard surface deflection).
3) Fragmentation of the projectile such that the trajectories of the daughter fragments were deviated from vital structures and/or the decreased energy of these daughter fragments resulted in decreased penetration of the victim.

At no point was I able to make a comment on the effectiveness or wounding potential of any one calibre relative to another. Most of our cases were due to handgus of service calibre, but there are several variables present in real shootings that are not duplicated in the laboratory:

1) Distance to target.
2) Angle of incidence.
3) Different clothing materials. The most unpredictable of these is the shoe. I had big problems with gunshot wounds to the foot where shoes had been worn.
4) Variables related to the weapon that could not be quantified due to lack of evidence.
5) Number and placement of shots, while simultaneously applying the variables above.

I don't think it is worth getting into a calibre war. There are too many variables in real-life shootings to arrive at a scientific conclusion about service calibres with any kind of certainty in my humble technical opinion. A lucky deflection for one guy may result in death for another. You really need to go through actual cases to get some understanding of the difficulties involved here.

There are probably a few things I have left out and I do have a huge amount of material related to gunshot wounds, but that is my opinion about calibre as it relates to this discussion. One of the things I would liked to have done is get access to data for dead-on-scene victims during the same time period. Unfortunately I could not do this. However several of my research patients died after the acute phase and I have general data on the whole pool of 542 gunshot victims, including the position of the wounds and the outcome/designated treatment area of the patients.

[.357 magnum]

You are very welcome!

I agree! I was so afraid of semi-autos for just that reason. I just switched to them a little over two months ago! I researched until I was blue in the face. I actually went for the Taurus 24/7 pro in a .40. I have put just over 1,000-rounds through it not even a hint of a problem. I broke down and bought a springfield armory .45 acp with 14 in mag, and another .40 /I really love the semi-autos now, a lot of fun to shoot! And the ones I have purchased so far are extremely reliable. [I think my wife is gonna kill me for stretching our budget though] She actually loves to shoot. She handles a .357 magnum quite well. I have not converted her to being a semi-auto fan yet but I am working on it.

The best to you and your family!

[psychophipps]

Ahh...never-ending debate. Very interesting points have been made but I still feel fine with the idea of carrying my Glock 17 around. Hell, I even carry it with standard pressure JHPs without fearing for my safety or the thought that it won't get the job done.
The 9mm cartridge has proven itself for about 100 years as being quite effective in both defensive and combat applications. Ask any WWII vet of the german side of things and they'll tell you that the P38 and MP40 were nothing to scoff at. Ask the SAS, who had plenty of chances to swap if they saw a reason to, why they've used the 9mm for over 60 years and they'll say it's because it gets the job done just fine.
In all honesty, I feel that a large part of the "9mm sucks!" crowd is due to Hollywood repeatedly demonstrating the one-shot stop all the time. When your typical shooter, wether it's a LE/soldier/civilian/whatever, hits the harsh reality of handgun combat, or firearms combat at all for that matter, where the target doesn't drop that second, flops around a bit before trying to shoot you again or simply don't realise/care that they've been shot then you get a big-time reality check. Then they start looking at their tools and come up with largely unfounded, but supported by others who've had similar situations, reasons why it failed them.

Just some thoughts from an untrained idiot,
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[JohnKSa]

Odd Job,

Thanks for the writeup. Please bear with me while I summarize to see if I properly absorbed the information.

Intimal flaps are a type of damage to the internal part of a blood vessel that is not caused by direct contact by a projectile, but rather from some sort of energy transference. These flaps are "blown into" the blood vessel by a shock to the outside of the blood vessel and can cause differing levels of blockage in the vessel.

Intimal flaps are unlikely to be of a significant nature (in terms of incapacitation) when caused by handgun injuries but are evidence of at least some level of notable damage caused by temporary stretch cavities in handgun wounding.

Did I get close?

Thanks!

John

[weregunner]

Carry the size of the bullet you want and have confidence in it.Just be glad they didn"t go ahead with the fletchette rifles for the military.The goverment even had sub .22 center rifle cartridges.Try and stop a fiend with that.Be glad that we have choices and can agree or disagree on this.Let see.Maybe I can find an ox to gore somewhere else in another thread.HMMM. How about all you revolver users.PHTTTT. :scrutiny: :D :rolleyes: :) Kidding here folks.On with the important stuff.Tootles.

[Odd Job]

@ JohnKSa

You nailed it on the head, sir! That matches exactly my understanding of this.
Arteries have three layers. Working from the outside to the inside: Tunica Adventitia, Tunica Media and Tunica Intima. The media and intima can peel off the adventitia without any breach of the adventitia. Even blunt trauma can cause intimal flaps or tears. Typical examples are hyperextension injuries of the neck (carotid artery damage) and blunt force trauma of the renal arteries.
Some filling defects have been nicely described and illustrated here:

http://radiology.rsnajnls.org/cgi/content/full/224/2/366

[Borachon]

1557
Wow! Someone who actually knows the officer from the film! I would have to agree with the judge. The officer showed admirable restraint in not shooting a few more times. I'm not entirely sure I myself would have had the courage or the clear presence of mind to have restrained myself in those circumstances. Officer Ralston is a real trooper...so to speak. :D

[JohnKSa]

Odd Job,

Thanks again, and that's a very interesting article. Too bad they didn't break the injuries out by firearm type (rifle/pistol).

John

[goings_51]

Everyone talks about placement like they will have time to aim. The point is that the lead will slow a BG down. As long as the lead keeps flying until he stops, it's all good. It doesn't matter if it takes one piece, or 3, or ten.

[Stevie-Ray]

As long as the lead keeps flying until he stops, it's all good. It doesn't matter if it takes one piece, or 3, or ten.Hmmm........I'd say that would matter if you're holding a revolver.:D

[Manedwolf]

Everyone talks about placement like they will have time to aim. The point is that the lead will slow a BG down. As long as the lead keeps flying until he stops, it's all good. It doesn't matter if it takes one piece, or 3, or ten.

Hence why besides a .45, I do still keep an itty Beretta Jetfire as a bug. Because I know full well if the .45 goes :barf: and the BG is on top of me, I can empty the thing 's nine rounds so fast it sounds like it's gone full-auto, and reliably. I'm not sure why, but the Jetfire is far more reliable than the newer and larger caliber Tomcat.

And small or not, they ARE going to notice most of nine rounds, especially in the face. (and I think the latest gel tests showed 14"-18" with ball and newer propellants)

As for the nine, there's some specialty rounds that are said to be VERY effective at what they do. Things such as the GECO lightweight +P "Blitz Action Trauma" round that loses its plastic nose after firing, or Cor-Bon's 115gr +P out of a 9mm carbine, which gets well into the rifle velocity realm.

[boomstik45]

I've never seen the point of a 9mm vs. anything else discussion. Funny how some people come up with all these stories about seeing someone take a hit from a .357 or a .45 or some other respected, fairly mean round. And the person survives. Do you see the problem in those stories? ONE SHOT. It's always just the one shot. People, you shoot until the threat is stopped. Anybody looking for a one-shot stop in a defensive scenario involving two-legged critters is a fool if you ask me. One-shot stops are for animals ( you don't want to let that sucker get away from you and have you tracking all day now do ya?) I tend to prefer larger calibers than 9mm, but it can get the job done. Question is, do you feel confident that it will and will you make enough of the right hits to do the job? Stress will play havoc with your marksmanship. The nice thing about 9mm is you can almost always get a weapon chambered in it with plenty of ammo in that first magazine. Take for instance the glock 19: 15+1 rounds of your favorite defensive round before refueling. Same with the excellent Sig 226 or the Beretta in it's various 92-style offerings. That's never a bad thing. One of my personal favorites is the glock 21: 13+1 rounds of .45 acp in my favorite flavor: Speer Gold Dot 230 grain. But hey, I handle it as well or better than the 9mms I've had. So that's what I go with. Shot placement is key, but what difference does it make if the bullet doesn't do the job you need it to do? This is why anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice....or as many times as necessary. At any rate, you have to pick your ammo carefully. Get something that is designed to perform, and perform consistently. While caliber choice is always subjective, it's much better to stake your life on training, a reliable weapon, and premium ammo. Not just a specific caliber.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I didn't read all ten pages of this thread, so my apologies if I hit ground that someone else has already covered. It seems that everybody, including the coroner who started the thread on the other forum, agrees that shot placement is more important than caliber and that training is more important than caliber?

If my training budget for the next six months is $700. I can buy ~7,000 rounds of 9mm CCI Blazer 115gr FMJ, 3,700 rounds of .40S&W Wolf 180gr FMJ, or about 2,900 rounds of .45ACP Lawman 230gr FMJ.

So at the end of six months, who is more likely to be in the best position to make the shot placement that everybody agrees is important? The guy who fired 7,000 rounds of 9mm, the guy who fired 3,700 rounds of .40 or the guy who fired 2,900 rounds of .45?

I ask this because I know several people who like the larger calibers and believe that they are more effective than the 9mm. They just have limited budgets and believe that twice the training is more effective than the difference in calibers.

[AK103K]

Does the number of practice rounds "really" make a difference for shot placement? It pretty much all goes south when the first incoming round shows up. Unless you practice with someone shooting at you. :)

[gremlin_bros]

ok ok ok i tryed keep my mouth shut but heres my two cents worth.
first shot placement- yes it matters no matter the cal

second larger cal bigger the margin for error as far as ammo is the same type but lets get real when it comes to 9mm vs 45 the larger round is minimal this is where the mass enters the arena

third i own both 9mm and 45 acp recoil is easer for the 9mm hence the reason it is so popular for self defense i prefer the 45 it's a mater of choice

now my last thought to borrow a line from robin willams if i may
no size souldnt matter and wemon tell us it dosent (care to guess what he was talking about??? ok thats my attempt at humor)but as mr willams so wonderfully put it "it takes a looooong time to get to england in a row boat
so i will take the larger size and make it faster hence i will use my 45 if possable.

[Tactical Ninja]

Let's just put this to rest right now - everybody switch over to compact single-stack .50GI or .50AE. Voila - caliber wars are over.

(Until we start the great .50AE/GI vs. .500 S&W debate...) :banghead:

[BoomBoom25]

I happen to like the 9mm cartridge. I have 6 guns chambered for it a Glock19, Bertta 92, Sig P226, Ruger P95, Ruger Carbine, and the Beretta Cx4 Storm. All of these guns are great as well as the 9mm now iI know people can argue its underpowered and all that but, as much as I hate to say what everone else is saying it does come down to shot placement. It is also a lot eaiser to practice with the 9mm because of its cheap ammo so like Bartholomew Roberts said you will be more likley to make that one shot stop if needed. But to each his own and I know plenty of guys who dont like the 9mm so really you should pick what you like regardless of caliber then youll be more likley to practice with it and be ready to use it if the need should ever arise. But hey thats just my2 cents.