Cooper Firearms of Montana PROS & CONS?


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Outlaws
June 26, 2006, 10:12 PM
So I was at Sportsmans Warehouse with idea I would play with some Savage rifles. I had already played with some at another shop and found a 22-250 model 12 VLP that I liked very much. I am/was very tempted to get it.

Anyways, I am at Sportsmans, and I just notice really nice stock with the buick vents and I am like, oh thats nice. Then I look her up and down and go..."Are you F-ing kidding me?!?!?!" :eek:

Ya, a chain store like Sportsmans just started to carry Cooper rifles. :D

So I play with both of them (a 204 Varminter and a 223 Montana Varminter).
Needless to say after I tried to pick up a Savage, or a Ruger, or a Remington, or a Kimber, or a few others, they never felt quit that 'solid' as they did before.

The worksmanship on these Coopers was just unbelievable. The Wood on the forarm were it follows the barrel was straight. Not 'kinda straight' or 'eh, thats good enough'.

The operation of the bolt was just like magic.

I am sold. As soon as I unload my Ruger No. 1 I am getting one of them.


I really want a .204, but its just a Varminter and not a Montana Varminter. Although, the Varminter didn't look half bad, infact it really grew on me. The website picture wasn't as nice as the actual gun.


So if you are still reading I have a question.

What are some of the cons of Cooper Firearms of Montana? Are there any? What about barrel life. Savage used 'button something'....are these the other type that last a long time?
What about a 22-250? How long of life should I get from that if I went that route?

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esldude
June 26, 2006, 10:24 PM
Well, if I am not mistaken, Cooper guarantees accuracy (well on that point I am certain). But I think they mean if it ever fails to shoot as it should, they will fix it. So basically if you shoot out a barrel to the point it doesn't shoot 1/2 moa (centerfire) they will rebarrel it or do what it takes. So who cares how long the barrel lasts. As long as you own it the rifle shoots right or they fix it.

My complaint with Cooper is that beautiful wood. It is so nice, I just cringe at the thoughts of using it in some conditions. I actually would be happier with high quality synthetic for use. But the actions, trigger and all that are darn good. They have excellent workmanship as you saw. And are highly accurate as well.

My other complaint is, once you have one, you tend to want another whether you need it or not.

PS-what caliber #1 are you selling, I might be interested.

Outlaws
June 26, 2006, 10:47 PM
The No. 1 is a Stainless BBL laminate stock in a .204


Was that your review I found on the search the other day? Good write up.

esldude
June 26, 2006, 10:50 PM
Not sure, about the review. Could have been. I have a #1 in 45 70 and have owned some Coopers.

I was maybe interested in a #1 in 375 H&H.

A Cooper in .204 would likely be yummy.

rangerruck
June 26, 2006, 11:06 PM
esldude is right, cooper is slow and takes their time putting out rifles that in thier minds have no equal. the problem is the cost. however, they are guaranteed 1/2 moa, and they will bend over backwards to make sure that nothing ever is wrong with your rifle. their service may be slow sometimes, but you can rest assured that it will meet or surpass your expectations.
Ohter dude is also right, i have a cz 527 , and a post ww2 parker hale, they have such beautiful wood, i would not dream of taking them into the field.
Coopers' wood is better than that.

rockstar.esq
June 26, 2006, 11:15 PM
Reading the posts from above I've begun to believe that the whining about "Pre 64" this or that and quality of an age gone by has lost significant traction. I'm especially glad to read that they are not only beautiful but they are guaranteed to shoot well. Just how much money are you folks talking?

esheato
June 26, 2006, 11:23 PM
My review. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=129039&highlight=cooper)

I'd highly recommend not to get one (:p I'd like to keep them to myself)

Ed

esldude
June 26, 2006, 11:37 PM
I did remember one other caveat to their guarantee. On some calibers, they specify bullets and handloads to use. On others they suggest high quality off the shelf ammo. If you don't handload, then this might be a problem. Now that said, Coopers seem to shoot well with most reasonable loads.

Outlaws
June 26, 2006, 11:43 PM
Reading the posts from above I've begun to believe that the whining about "Pre 64" this or that and quality of an age gone by has lost significant traction. I'm especially glad to read that they are not only beautiful but they are guaranteed to shoot well. Just how much money are you folks talking?

The Varminter model is selling at the store for $1198. They have the Montana Varminter (I think 100% the same but with a vented forearm) for $1429 or 1450 I forget.

Ol` Joe
June 27, 2006, 01:38 AM
From Coopers web site..

Test targets are provided with each rifle. 22 LR’s are guaranteed to shoot 1/4" 5-shot groups at 50 yards using premium grade match ammunition. 22 Hornet family cartridges are guaranteed to shoot 1/4" 3-shot groups at 50 yards using hand loads. All other centerfires are guaranteed to shoot 1/2" 3- shot groups at 100 yards using hand loaded ammunition.


Cooper only guarantees them to shoot this way when new. The barrel will wear out at varying rates depending on cartridge and will have to be replaced by the owner, the same as anyother manufacture would require.
Cooper makes a very high quality firearm. I would love to have nothing but in my safe, but they only offer a single shot in the cartridges I`m interested in. The prices would hold me back on owning very many to begin with.

CCWMAN
June 27, 2006, 04:53 AM
Coopers are nice but I like my vintage Steyrs in .223 & .22-250 with the double-set triggers! The other excellent guns are the vintage Walther KKJ's in .22 L.R., .22WMR, or the centerfire .22 Hornet. Also if heavy isn't a problem try Remington 40XB's!:)

BigG
June 27, 2006, 09:01 AM
The Cooper is nice, but is single shot, as Ol' Joe mentioned. The Steyr Mannlichers, as noted by CCWMAN, are repeaters and shoot as good in my experience. The Steyr is about it, as far as I'm concerned.

BillL223
June 27, 2006, 10:20 AM
I bought a Cooper Model 22 in 7mm-08 last year. It was the only one I could find in Eastern PA. The test target that came with the rifle was a .09" 3 shot group. They identify the bullet and powder used on the test target. You have to figure out the charge weight. I'm getting 3/4" 5 shot groups using a VariX III 1.75 - 6. If you like Coopers, don't look at Dakotas.

retiredsgt
June 27, 2006, 04:09 PM
After reading about, then looking at and finally handling several, I finally ordered a Cooper. Was going to get one in .221 Rem. F.B., or maybe .204 Ruger, but figured for the price, why not get one in a calibre big enough for whitetail. After talking to the folks out in Montana, several times, I ordered one in 6.5-284 Win. They claim it is one of the "more accurate" ones they build. I ordered it in a synthetic stock, called the "phoenix". I too, was a little concerned about taking that nice stock out of doors. Anyway am still waiting.
I did manage to buy one in .17Mach II, from an individual off of a similar forum. It is in the new model called the "Jackson Squirrel Rifle", in .17 Mach II. Shoots superb, and quite deadly on coons and foxes, and crows. It does digest Hornady and CCI ammo very well, and I am eagerly awaiting my Phoenix.
I am a Ruger No.1 Addict, but I figured I was not getting any younger, and ....................Why Not?

Outlaws
June 28, 2006, 06:32 PM
Well I just bought a Model 21 Varminter in .204 with a 26" barrel.

Beautiful rifle.

Smoke
June 28, 2006, 07:21 PM
Friend of mine (and i use the term loosley) brought one of these foul Coopers to my range awhile back. I'll admit it looks a little nicer than my Remmy. And if forced I can face the fact that it shoots as good (or better even after tweakin' mine a bit) and if we're going to crunch nuts....the machining is probably better.

But here is where I come out on top. I was able to buy my Remington for $825, had a trigger job done and some accuracy to the tune of $350 and ......oh, never mind. Just go get the danged Cooper.

Smoke

Edited to add:
Oh I just see you did. Enjoy the danged thing, but don't bring it around here. They cause jealousy.

Lone_Gunman
June 28, 2006, 07:24 PM
I know 2 people who have Coopers that had to send them immediately back to the factory to get them to work right.

I think I will pass.

Outlaws
June 28, 2006, 07:34 PM
I know 2 people who have Coopers that had to send them immediately back to the factory to get them to work right.

I think I will pass.

Care to elaborate on that one?

esheato
June 28, 2006, 07:48 PM
I also know of problems...and I still wouldn't hesitate to purchase another. Every company puts out some duds. The real question is how they deal with them.

As a matter of fact, the guy I know had to return two guns. On one...the extractor lost its tension quite quickly. Same guy, different gun had to have the barrel replaced.

The point of the story is that Cooper paid to have them returned to the factory, fixed the problem, test shot them to ensure they were up to standards and returned them.

Either way, when you spend $1,200+ on a firearm that touts their specs, they take care of ya...

No worries.

Ed

pcf
June 28, 2006, 08:23 PM
I own two Coopers, bought both from my father....One in .221 Fireball and the other in .222 Remington. For the money I don't think that there are any modern rifles that match the craftmanship, quality, accuracy and price.

I don't shoot them much, I can't shoot .5" groups at 200yds with any regularity (only by pure dumb luck) and don't want to go rambling through the woods with a nice rifle.

They are joy to hold and admire though.

trbon8r
June 29, 2006, 01:43 AM
I've been looking at the Coopers as well. They look really nice. However, I too was disappointed that they don't make a .308 or 30-06 repeater.

Outlaws
June 29, 2006, 02:51 AM
I've been looking at the Coopers as well. They look really nice. However, I too was disappointed that they don't make a .308 or 30-06 repeater.

Ya, the only repeater is their rimfires. And even those I find hard to call repeaters at 4-5 rounds. I really miss the good old tube feed .22's. IMO that squirl rifle of Coopers would really be the ultimate squire rifle if you had 15-17 rounds lined up under the barrel. I wish a company would make a really nice quality 22 that is tube fed.

JohnBT
June 29, 2006, 10:05 AM
How many shots do you need to hit a squirrel? :) They do sell extra mags.

Anybody remember the post about the guy who bought a like-new used Cooper that wouldn't shoot straight and they rebarreled it for free? Now that's customer service.

I love my Custom Classic .22LR.

John

Coopersrcool
June 30, 2006, 01:06 AM
I have three and need 10 more....221 Fireball w/ fluted barrel in Montana Varminter with a 24x Sightron; 223 Varminter with a 36 power Weaver; And my baby...22-250 Montana varminter ...8 x 32 Night force NXS ( what a gun and wow what a scope...Night force puts my leupolds, Weavers, Nikons and Sightron to Shame!!! As for Coopers......they are the BEST!!!! Best groups I have ever gotten...and I have shot alot in 51 years. Kenny

Outlaws
June 30, 2006, 01:41 AM
How many shots do you need to hit a squirrel? They do sell extra mags.

Ya but I don't like detachable mags. Plus its nice to load up and it will last for a good while if you just want to shoot whatever you see.

Bullet Bob
June 30, 2006, 09:00 AM
The gun mags are hinting heavily that Cooper will be coming out with a centerfire repeater - that usually means it's definite, but they aren't allowed to state it as fact just yet.

lunde
July 2, 2006, 01:05 PM
My dad owns seventeen Cooper Arms rifles, with an eighteenth on the way that he doesn't know about. ;)

It is an M52 Classic in .280 Ackley Improved. The M52 is their new repeater action. It is a gift from me.

I own eleven of their rifles myself. I drove to South Dakota a month ago, and brought four of them with me. I used the two chambered in .204 Ruger, an M21 Montana Varminter and an M21 Phoenix, for serious prairie dog hunting, using the Sierra 32gr BlitzKing bullet in my handloads. Both shoot quarter-inch five-shot 100-yard groups. I also used my M57-BR (.22LR single-shot) for a dozen or so sub-100-yard shots. My M22 Phoenix in 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser (an uncataloged cartridge for Cooper Arms, but they will produce them on request) was used at my dad's outdoor range.

Two wildly enthusiastic "thumbs up" for Cooper Arms rifles.

Below are some of my best groups shot through Cooper Arms rifles, from newest to oldest.

http://lundestudio.com/photos/m22-phoenix-65x55-group-02232006.jpg

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/m21-204-group-05122005.jpg

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/m21-204-group-04222005.jpg

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/m22-22-250-group-05042004.jpg

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/m21-223-group-10172003.jpg

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/m22-308-group-08292003.jpg

rangerruck
July 2, 2006, 04:04 PM
to Lunde: I'll bet that 6.5 is an absolute dream to shoot, recoil must feel like a 223 or less for that kind of confident shooting.

larryw
July 2, 2006, 05:30 PM
I had to return my Cooper to the factory. 57M in 22LR and the best I could get was 1/2" groups with a flyer here and there...

First they recrowned it, shot it and went back to the bench. Rechambering didn't do what they wanted, so they replaced the barrel. Now it shoots 1/4" groups with everything from $10/box Eley Gold-Uber Match to $1 CCI std velocity.

Cooper paid to have it shipped round trip.

Did I mention I bought the gun USED?

Cooper didn't care: it had their name in it, and by God, they will make it shoot right.

Let me add my thumbs up along with those of my friend Lunde and his top-notch Dad.

(By the way, the guns aren't picky about ammo. Ken's groups for 223 above were loaded on my 550B at 300+/hr using my standard varmint load and new brass: nothing special)

Ol` Joe
July 3, 2006, 01:33 AM
It is an M52 Classic in .280 Ackley Improved. The M52 is their new repeater action.

Can you tell us anything about this model? I`ve been looking for a repeter version of the Cooper for some time, and although I heard one was coming I still haven`t seen or read about their availability.

lunde
July 3, 2006, 10:35 AM
The Model 52 action is indeed Cooper Arms' centerfire repeater, using a three-round single-stack magazine. It will be chambered in .270, .280, and .30-06, and Ackley Improved versions, if available. Dan Cooper and Rob Behr were toting around prototype magazines at their 2006 SHOT Show reception.

As further evidence of its existence, although I have never dealt with them, L & M Enterprises has a list of what Cooper Arms rifles they have on order. See: http://www.lmenterprises.net/cooperRifes.php

The one I am buying for my dad was ordered through First Stop Guns (Rapid City, South Dakota).

hksw
July 3, 2006, 07:30 PM
I had placed an order for a 57M LVT in .17MR last March when Dan paid a visit to a (relatively) local gun shop and was told it'll be about 6 months. It actually took about 3. The quality is, as noted above, pretty top end. The guns are very pretty. My factory group was a single slight oval hole. To be fair, Dan did state the the '50 yd' groups are really 44 yds. The difference being the space available and the length of the table shot from. Still, even at that distance, the group is spectacular. A little difficult to dublicate due to the regularly windy conditions of my regular range, but I think the gun will do it. Cooper does specify a certain break-in procedure for the barrel.

The only shortcoming of my gun is that the wrist (grip) of the stock is a little more narrow than I'd like, but then again, I don't normally put a full grip on the gun when benching. (And, of course as someone else noted, the thought of the gun getting scratched and dinged.)

Remander
July 4, 2006, 02:31 AM
I recently bought a Cooper Classic in 22LR. I love it! Shoots great.

I also love my CZ452, which was about 1/3 the price, but you have to pay to play at the top end of accuracy and looks.

Carl Osborn
March 28, 2008, 08:57 AM
I got my .243 Phoenix after 6 months... for $1400. I don't consider that expensive for a fine shooter. The walnut stocks are magnificent, and add a lot more to the cost. Gun shoots tight, trigger is excellent (and adjustable), I have nothing but admiration for Coopers

ShunZu
March 28, 2008, 09:40 AM
The Jan/Feb '08 issue of Petersen's Rifle Shooter has a good article on the Cooper 52 Western Classic. Absolutely beautiful rifle, sub MOA groups with a wide variety of ammo. Listed $3,295 according to the article. I want one badly in .30/06 but it's a chunk of change to flop down... and I'm busy writing a sequel so there isn't much time to hit the range anyway.

Several friends own Coopers and have never said anything negative that I can recall. Only good things about the Coopers of Montana.

skinewmexico
March 28, 2008, 10:22 AM
For that kind of money, I'd expect a little better than 1/2" 3 shot group with handloads. They should at least do 5 shot groups.

JohnBT
March 28, 2008, 08:38 PM
I like the 3-shot group in post #27. It's .05", not .5".

I also like my Custom Classic .22 LR.

John

dscottw88
October 28, 2008, 05:04 PM
I wont support Cooper Firearms after learning that they support Sen. Obama in his run for Presidency. http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-10-27-prez-money_N.htm

hksw
October 28, 2008, 05:58 PM
I had other Coopers on my list to buy but have removed them.

Omaha-BeenGlockin
October 28, 2008, 06:00 PM
A company run by morons deserves to die.

skinewmexico
October 28, 2008, 06:34 PM
Five shot groups are hard to do. Three shot are easy.

jmorganal
October 28, 2008, 06:37 PM
Don't look now, a two-year old thread.

Tycer
October 28, 2008, 07:08 PM
I will not be buying any Coopers.

"......This year, Cooper has given $3,300 to the campaign of Democrat Barack Obama. That's on top of the $1,000 check he wrote to Obama's U.S. Senate campaign in 2004, after he was dazzled by Obama's speech at that year's Democratic National Convention......"

John-Melb
November 2, 2008, 09:09 PM
The orignal poster asked for pros and cons of Cooper rifles. One significant con is if you buy a Cooper, some of that money might go to Obama!

guntotinguy
November 2, 2008, 09:20 PM
No matter what the circumstances,I wont be spreading any wealth their way...not saying why because it would sound 'political'.

CRITGIT
November 2, 2008, 10:12 PM
A company run by morons deserves to die.

Seems a bit harsh!:eek:
I'll be buying a Cooper in .17. I've got a couple of buddies who are doing the same thing. Coopers are some of the finest firearms available anywhere.
Besides if you're gonna stiff everything that's pro Obama you're in for a tough eight years and beyond!:D
Remember it took a whole lotta ugly to get the electorate in this land to give rise to an Obama.
Thank Pres. Shortbus!:eek:

CRITGIT

wacki
November 2, 2008, 10:14 PM
I'm boycotting cooper because he happens to send "maximum donations" to antigun politicians.

For example:
http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2008/10/cooper_arms_exe.php

I know a guy who set his cooper on fire when he heard of their CEO's political musings.

alaskanativeson
November 2, 2008, 11:39 PM
Let's try to avoid a blow-up over the Cooper fiasco. Here are my take on the important items on this issue:

- Dan Cooper donated to the Obama campaign.

- Cooper Firearms asked Dan Cooper to resign which he has done.

The employees at Cooper make great firearms here in the USA and shouldn't be punished because of the actions of the guy who used to be at the head of their company. If Cooper does bring out a repeater in a caliber I'm interested in, I'll buy one.

Girodin
November 3, 2008, 03:02 AM
Cooper Firearms asked Dan Cooper to resign which he has done.

The employees at Cooper make great firearms here in the USA and shouldn't be punished because of the actions of the guy who used to be at the head of their company. If Cooper does bring out a repeater in a caliber I'm interested in, I'll buy one.

Is he still a share holder? There is "resigning" and then there is no longer being affiliated in anyway with a company. They are not forcedly the same thing. I don't know but would not be surprised in the least if the guy is still making money from firearms purchased from that company. They are not the only ones that make nice accurate rifles and I personally would not purchase a cooper even if there weren't.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 3, 2008, 08:28 AM
Pro: You get an outstanding rifle.

Con: Your money will go to support the gun-grabber Obama.

Not worth it, IMO.

wacki
November 3, 2008, 08:32 AM
Let's try to avoid a blow-up over the Cooper fiasco.

I personally value my freedom and refuse to send a penny to anyone who wants to destroy it. You may think that's silly but that is my point of view. There are plenty of alternatives out there.

Jeff F
November 3, 2008, 09:07 AM
I wont support Cooper Firearms after learning that they support Sen. Obama in his run for Presidency.

It wasn't the company that supported Obama, it was the CEO and I believe he no longer works there. They took care of the problem. That said I do want a Cooper rifle, they are a work of art and a shooter to boot.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 3, 2008, 09:23 AM
It wasn't the company that supported Obama, it was the CEO and I believe he no longer works there. They took care of the problem.

I find it hilarious but very sad and disturbing that you or anyone would actually buy into this song-and-dance, smoke and mirrors routine. Did he disclaim all of his right, title, and interest to his share of the company? Did he simply give all his stock away, and go take a job down at the local Wendys? No? Then he (individually) is still profiting from OUR money, and then in turn taking that money and giving it to Banobama - and that's *assuming* you believe he actually quit getting up in the morning and coming to work there or having anything to do with the management of the company. It's pure spin, and BS damage control. If you buy into that and let this company slide, then it's a sad day for gun rights.....

3pairs12
November 3, 2008, 09:44 AM
I don't know Premium from what I have heard the company was pretty distraut and asked him to step down. He quickly turned in his letter of resigination. So I think it may be in fact damage control but done the right way.

Art Eatman
November 3, 2008, 11:10 AM
While it's easy to shun products from a small business like Cooper, a person would be hard-put to avoid buying products from corporations whose stock is largely owned by uber-liberal foundations or universities, etc. Gasoline comes immediately to mind.

Seems to me the issue is how much of the quality of the rifles depends upon Cooper, himself. Quien sabe? The employees might all be voting against Obama...

ArmedBear
November 3, 2008, 12:27 PM
Here's the thing...

If the company does well, the money still goes to Dan Cooper.

If not, then the craftsmen who work there will be out of work, but not out of skills. Real estate is cheap in Montana. There would be a lot of surplus gunmaking machinery on the market in Montana at that point, without many potential buyers. It should be relatively easy for this group of skilled people to regroup and make rifles without Dan Cooper.

It would be entirely possible to see that Dan Cooper doesn't make a penny from firearms again, while the current employees build their own company.

Refusing to buy from them in the meantime would make this possible.

Would this be a bad thing?

Horsemany
November 3, 2008, 02:36 PM
A Cooper rifle isn't any less accurate or desireable than it was last week IMO. THey are great American made guns. The customer service there is phenomonal. I'd buy another today if I felt I need one. Let's not be so quick to eat our own for differences of opinion. One could argue that "Pres. Shortbus" did as much damage to shooters by allowing the middle class (most shooters) to dwindle down to nothing while allowing the rich to get much richer. I'm not all about gun control but I do value my job and my house.

I heard a vendor at the gunshow this year chortling about how "next year there won't be a gun show if Obama is elected". He neglected to notice only half the tables had vendors because the economy is in the toilet. I had to ask at the door if I was at the same show as last year because it was so much smaller than years prior.

smee781
November 3, 2008, 05:32 PM
I still have a choice, and I decide not to support cooper or the other moron!:mad:

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 3, 2008, 06:31 PM
ArmedBear speaks very, VERY wisely.

:D

alaskanativeson
November 3, 2008, 07:13 PM
Would this be a bad thing?
In my opinion, yes. With the economy the way it is, what are the chances that somebody's going to gamble on starting up a new firearms manufacturer? What are the chances that someone will get the capital needed to start such a venture? I don't know of too many gun rights multi-millionaires looking to start new gun companies (okay, I don't know any) and I SERIOUSLY doubt the banking institution is going to line up to give a loan. This is made all the more likely when you look at the number of firearms manufactureres going out of business. One more, especially a quality company like Cooper is not a good thing.

I can't see punishing the employees because of Dan's mistake. I'm willing to bet that he's going to learn something from this as well. Time will tell. Dan'll be around; Gun shows, outdoor expos, things like that. He'll have a chance to make himself heard as to whatever his true colors are. In the mean time, I won't be condemning an American gunmaking company.

We're already under attack enough.

SwampWolf
November 3, 2008, 07:39 PM
He'll have a chance to make himself heard as to whatever his true colors are. In the mean time, I won't be condemning an American gunmaking company.

He has shown us what his true colors are. What other evidence do you need? And I'll condemn any company that purports to diminish my Constitutional rights, be it American and/or makes guns or otherwise.

rbernie
November 3, 2008, 07:41 PM
We're already under attack enough.All the more reason to convince Dan to STFU, like right NOW.

I don't buy this 'Don't pick on our own' argument that I keep hearing. He is NOT 'one of us', despite any protestations to the contrary.

HE SOLD US OUT.

Certainly, he's not like me. I would not sell my soul for the premise of some future benefit, nor would I go behind those whom I use as my customers and support policies that lead to their eventual loss of rights. No sir - he is not one of us. He ceased to be when he supported a known, unapologetic gun banner.

He is free to hold his politics. Good for him to stand up and make his voice heard. But I have heard that voice and all I can say in return is, "Piss off".

I can't see punishing the employees because of Dan's mistake.

Perhaps if his staff is sufficiently unenamored with him and the price that his opinions has cost THEM, they'll buy him out and send him on his way. THAT would be an American response. Until then, I have ZERO tolerance and ZERO sympathy for the lot of 'em.

If they support him, they by direct extension support his opinions and his actions.

I do not offer him that support.

TT
November 3, 2008, 07:43 PM
People who support politicians who want to ban light rifles and make carrying concealed a Federal crime are not ‘fellow gun owners’, they’re fifth columnists. We need to make an example of them.

mljdeckard
November 3, 2008, 07:44 PM
This business is competitive enough, I don't feel the need at all to reconsider them in the future. Bottom line, he knew what he was risking when he took the position he did. I'll admire a man for sticking to it, but that doesn't mean there aren't consequences.

theoldgringo
November 3, 2008, 07:50 PM
In this country a thousand millions is a billion, a thousand billions is a trillion, a million millions is a trillion.................PERIOD

Golden Hound
November 3, 2008, 09:10 PM
It's bad enough that he supported the official party of gun control but Barack Mugabe (I mean, Obama) is THE MOST ANTI-GUN POLITICIAN WHO HAS EVER RUN FOR PRESIDENT! There's no excuse! None whatsoever!

TT
November 3, 2008, 09:53 PM
CRITGIT: Hopefully there was this much disgust with those who were responsible for that POS The Pat Act and Military Comm. Act 2006 that stripped away many more rights than a wouldbee/mightbee ever could!

This sort of post is exactly why the idea of RKBA groups ‘reaching out to Democrats’ is a failure. Anyone who would equate the narrowly-tailored Patriot Act to a blanket Federal ban on civilian ownership of arbitrarily selected weapons is obviously hopeless with regard to the 2nd Amendment. What makes a RKBA activist useful is his willingness to vote guns first, not his willingness to find excuses to support anti-gun candidates.

Horsemany
November 3, 2008, 10:02 PM
What makes a RKBA activist useful is his willingness to vote guns first, not his willingness to find excuses to support anti-gun candidates.

I believe tomorrow you will find few folks are willing to "vote guns first" with all that's going on right now. Especially the middle class folks who I feel most gun owners are. I do not believe Obama will take guns away from us. I have heard how the Dems will take guns away for the past couple of decades I've been old enough to care about politics. With all going on right now and the mainstream status of the AR I don't personally think anyone's gonna get the guns. Just my point of view.

SwampWolf
November 3, 2008, 10:47 PM
I do not believe Obama will take guns away from us. I have heard how the Dems will take guns away for the past couple of decades I've been old enough to care about politics. With all going on right now and the mainstream status of the AR I don't personally think anyone's gonna get the guns. Just my point of view.

Bill Clinton, a Democrat, signed the Assault Rifle Ban. Obama is on record opposing your right to keep and bear arms. Your "point of view" is irrelevant when the facts stare you in the face.

Horsemany
November 3, 2008, 10:54 PM
Obama is on record opposing your right to keep and bear arms

Where did you find the record? I've not seen anything official on this and I don't believe everyone on the gun forum will give truthful unbiased info. I'd like a link or something official if you got it.

Oh...and my opinion is just as relevant as yours.

Golden Hound
November 3, 2008, 11:00 PM
I wish I didn't have to worry about Obama restricting or outlawing guns, but unfortunately, his record is so anti-gun that it's impossible not to. To all who say that "the Democrats will have more important things to do than worry about gun control, because of all the other problems," I say, with the economic problems will come a rise in crime, and because of the rise in crime, Democrat politicians (who will control the legislative branch as well as the executive) will propose anti-gun laws as a feel-good measure to make people think that something is being done about the crime problems, and there you have it - gun bans, ammo taxes, whatever. I'm not sufficiently eased by the claims that gun control simply won't come up because it's not an important issue of the moment.

rbernie
November 3, 2008, 11:09 PM
Where did you find the record? I've not seen anything official on this and I don't believe everyone on the gun forum will give truthful unbiased info. I'd like a link or something official if you got it.
Oh, dear sweet baby jeebus. It's in the official Democratic Party plank, and it's in his voting record and in his stump speeches. You would have to be completely disingenuous to suggest that you have looked and have not seen it.

Here's the first link I found when I searched for 'Obama gun rights"

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/2/16/22186/4153

To quote from the article:

Chicago Defender December 13, 1999,

Obama unveils federal gun bill

Obama is proposing to make it a felony for a gun owner whose firearm was stolen from his residence which causes harm to another person if that weapon was not securely stored in that home.

He's proposing restricting gun purchases to one weapon a month and banning the sale of firearms at gun shows except for "antique" weapons. Obama is also proposing increasing the licensing fee to obtain a federal firearms

Here's the Chicago Tribune, October 8, 2004:

In 2001, Obama was one of just nine senators to vote against a bill that toughened penalties for violent crimes committed during gang activity. Obama said the law did not clearly define a gang member and he questioned why lawmakers were targeting Hispanics and blacks for stiffer sentences.

Two years earlier, after the Columbine High School shootings in Colorado, Obama voted "present" on a bill requiring juveniles to be prosecuted as adults for firing a firearm on or near school property.

Obama also voted against a bill permitting gun owners to claim self-defense when using a gun in their homes if the local community bans the use of handguns. Obama said municipalities should control local gun regulations, not the state.

"That law eviscerated anti-handgun ordinances in some communities," Obama said. "The way I feel, Wilmette should not determine Mattoon's firearms ordinances and Mattoon should not determine Wilmette's."

Associated Press, Sept. 11, 2004:

-Voted 'No' on letting people claim a self-defense protection in court for using a gun in their homes despite local weapons bans. (SB2165, 2004)

-Voted 'Yes' on letting retired police and military police carry concealed weapons. (SB2188, 2004)

Chicago Tribune, August 20, 2004:

Last week, Obama won the endorsement of the Illinois Fraternal Order of Police. Union officials cited Obama's longtime support of gun-control measures and his willingness to negotiate compromises on bills backed or opposed by the FOP.

(Articles available on Lexis. com.)

I can't figure out where he stands. He's all over the map. This happens on just too many issues with him.



How about this:

http://www.issues2000.org/Domestic/Barack_Obama_Gun_Control.htm

Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws
Q: Is the D.C. law prohibiting ownership of handguns consistent with an individual's right to bear arms?
A: As a general principle, I believe that the Constitution confers an individual right to bear arms. But just because you have an individual right does not mean that the state or local government can't constrain the exercise of that right, in the same way that we have a right to private property but local governments can establish zoning ordinances that determine how you can use it.

Q: But do you still favor the registration & licensing of guns?

A: I think we can provide common-sense approaches to the issue of illegal guns that are ending up on the streets. We can make sure that criminals don't have guns in their hands. We can make certain that those who are mentally deranged are not getting a hold of handguns. We can trace guns that have been used in crimes to unscrupulous gun dealers that may be selling to straw purchasers and dumping them on the streets.

Source: 2008 Philadelphia primary debate, on eve of PA primary Apr 16, 2008

FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban
Obama was being misleading when he denied that his handwriting had been on a document endorsing a state ban on the sale and possession of handguns in Illinois. Obama responded, "No, my writing wasn't on that particular questionnaire. As I said, I have never favored an all-out ban on handguns."
Actually, Obama's writing was on the 1996 document, which was filed when Obama was running for the Illinois state Senate. A Chicago nonprofit, Independent Voters of Illinois, had this question, and Obama took hard line:

35. Do you support state legislation to:
a. ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns? Yes.
b. ban assault weapons? Yes.
c. mandatory waiting periods and background checks? Yes.

Obama's campaign said, "Sen. Obama didn't fill out these state Senate questionnaires--a staffer did--and there are several answers that didn't reflect his views then or now. He may have jotted some notes on the front page of the questionnaire, but some answers didn't reflect his views."

Source: FactCheck.org analysis of 2008 Philadelphia primary debate Apr 16, 2008

Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok
Q: You said recently, "I have no intention of taking away folks' guns." But you support the D.C. handgun ban, and you've said that it's constitutional. How do you reconcile those two positions?
A: Because I think we have two conflicting traditions in this country. I think it's important for us to recognize that we've got a tradition of handgun ownership and gun ownership generally. And a lot of law-abiding citizens use it for hunting, for sportsmanship, and for protecting their families. We also have a violence on the streets that is the result of illegal handgun usage. And so I think there is nothing wrong with a community saying we are going to take those illegal handguns off the streets. And cracking down on the various loopholes that exist in terms of background checks for children, the mentally ill. We can have reasonable, thoughtful gun control measure that I think respect the Second Amendment and people's traditions.

Source: 2008 Politico pre-Potomac Primary interview Feb 11, 2008

Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing
Q: When you were in the state senate, you talked about licensing and registering gun owners. Would you do that as president?
A: I don't think that we can get that done. But what we can do is to provide just some common-sense enforcement. The efforts by law enforcement to obtain the information required to trace back guns that have been used in crimes to unscrupulous gun dealers. As president, I intend to make it happen. We essentially have two realities, when it comes to guns, in this country. You've got the tradition of lawful gun ownership. It is very important for many Americans to be able to hunt, fish, take their kids out, teach them how to shoot. Then you've got the reality of 34 Chicago public school students who get shot down on the streets of Chicago. We can reconcile those two realities by making sure the Second Amendment is respected and that people are able to lawfully own guns, but that we also start cracking down on the kinds of abuses of firearms that we see on the streets.

Source: 2008 Democratic debate in Las Vegas Jan 15, 2008

2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month
Obama sought moderate gun control measures, such as a 2000 bill he cosponsored to limit handgun purchases to one per month (it did not pass). He voted against letting people violate local weapons bans in cases of self-defense, but also voted in2004 to let retired police officers carry concealed handguns. Source: The Improbable Quest, by John K. Wilson, p.148 Oct 30, 2007

Concealed carry OK for retired police officers
Obama voted for a bill in the Illinois senate that allowed retired law enforcement officers to carry concealed weapons. If there was any issue on which Obama rarely deviated, it was gun control. He was the most strident candidate when it came to enforcin and expanding gun control laws. So this vote jumped out as inconsistent.
When I queried him about the vote, he said, "I didn't find that [vote] surprising. I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry. This was a narrow exception in an exceptional circumstance where a retired police officer might find himself vulnerable as a consequence of the work he has previously done--and had been trained extensively in the proper use of firearms."

It wasn't until a few weeks later that another theory came forward about the uncharacteristic vote. Obama was battling with his GOP opponent to win the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police.

Source: From Promise to Power, by David Mendell, p.250-251 Aug 14, 2007

Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities
Q: How would you address gun violence that continues to be the #1 cause of death among African-American men?
A: You know, when the massacre happened at Virginia Tech, I think all of us were grief stricken and shocked by the carnage. But in this year alone, in Chicago, we've had 34 Chicago public school students gunned down and killed. And for the most part, there has been silence. We know what to do. We've got to enforce the gun laws that are on the books. We've got to make sure that unscrupulous gun dealers aren't loading up vans and dumping guns in our communities, because we know they're not made in our communities. There aren't any gun manufacturers here, right here in the middle of Detroit. But what we also have to do is to make sure that we change our politics so that we care just as much about those 30-some children in Chicago who've been shot as we do the children in Virginia Tech. That's a mindset that we have to have in the White House and we don't have it right now.

Source: 2007 NAACP Presidential Primary Forum Jul 12, 2007

Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality
I believe in keeping guns out of our inner cities, and that our leaders must say so in the face of the gun manfuacturer's lobby. But I also believe that when a gangbanger shoots indiscriminately into a crowd because he feels someone disrespected him, we have a problem of morality. Not only do ew need to punish thatman for his crime, but we need to acknowledge that there's a hole in his heart, one that government programs alone may not be able to repair.
Source: The Audacity of Hope, by Barack Obama, p.215 Oct 1, 2006

Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban
KEYES: [to Obama]: I am a strong believer in the second amendment. The gun control mentality is ruthlessly absurd. It suggests that we should pass a law that prevents law abiding citizens from carrying weapons. You end up with a situation where the crook have all the guns and the law abiding citizens cannot defend themselves. I guess that's good enough for Senator Obama who voted against the bill that would have allowed homeowners to defend themselves if their homes were broken into.
OBAMA: Let's be honest. Mr. Keyes does not believe in common gun control measures like the assault weapons bill. Mr. Keyes does not believe in any limits from what I can tell with respect to the possession of guns, including assault weapons that have only one purpose, to kill people. I think it is a scandal that this president did not authorize a renewal of the assault weapons ban.

Source: Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes Oct 21, 2004

Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions
Principles that Obama supports on gun issues:
Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.
Increase state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
Require manufacturers to provide child-safety locks with firearms.
Source: 1998 IL State Legislative National Political Awareness Test Jul 2, 1998

Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers.
A bill to prohibit civil liability actions from being brought or continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of firearms or ammunition for damages, injunctive or other relief resulting from the misuse of their products by others. Voting YES would:
Exempt lawsuits brought against individuals who knowingly transfer a firearm that will be used to commit a violent or drug-trafficking crime
Exempt lawsuits against actions that result in death, physical injury or property damage due solely to a product defect
Call for the dismissal of all qualified civil liability actions pending on the date of enactment by the court in which the action was brought
Prohibit the manufacture, import, sale or delivery of armor piercing ammunition, and sets a minimum prison term of 15 years for violations
Require all licensed importers, manufacturers and dealers who engage in the transfer of handguns to provide secure gun storage or safety devices

Ye, gods. Cognitive dissonance knows no bounds....

Horsemany
November 3, 2008, 11:09 PM
Golden Hound

I think we both hope you're suspicions are wrong. It's gonna be an interesting time regardless.

rbernie,

that's what I was asking for. I did some searches but didn't find this mountain of evidence. I must have been overwhelmed with cognitive dissonance. In 4 or 8 years I'd like you to find this thread and we can discuss all the guns Obama has taken away from you. Won't happen.

tiger rag
November 3, 2008, 11:15 PM
No quarter Cooper, The problem is a liberal anti gun legislature ,executive and judicial branch. Top it off with the press against us .our backs are against the wall!

mljdeckard
November 4, 2008, 02:05 AM
If it doesn't happen, it certainly won't be because he didn't want to. IT WILL BE BECAUSE WE WOULDN'T LET HIM.

Thank you for your help horsemany.

Horsemany
November 4, 2008, 09:55 AM
If it doesn't happen, it certainly won't be because he didn't want to. IT WILL BE BECAUSE WE WOULDN'T LET HIM.

Thank you for your help horsemany.

You're welcome. Try to stay positive or this is gonna be a bad day. Remember Congressman, Senators, and Presidents want to get re-elected. I'm hoping the Dems will try to show they are NOT extremist since after today they will control everything. My fingers are crossed.

SwampWolf
November 4, 2008, 11:21 AM
Obama is on record opposing your right to keep and bear arms

Where did you find the record? I've not seen anything official on this and I don't believe everyone on the gun forum will give truthful unbiased info. I'd like a link or something official if you got it.

Oh...and my opinion is just as relevant as yours.

Well, thanks to rbernie, you got your links, official and then some. Obama's record re gun control is clear to anybody with open eyes. Those who choose not to see are willfully blind to the facts.

Oh...and anybody can have an opinion. But relevant opinions need facts that are relevant.

mljdeckard
November 4, 2008, 12:07 PM
(Since the mods are leaving it alone for the time being,)

Here's the bright side. The BHO administration (and I'm NOT resigned to it happening,) will make the Carter Administration look rational and effective. He, (and everyone who voted for him,) will learn that wishing does NOT make it so. It will be so bad, it will give the republicans a window to get their party together, and REMEMBER HOW TO BE REPUBLICANS, and actually show up for the mid-terms. It will shatter the perceived race barrier, and make people think twice about voting someone just because of their race. (Oh yeah, I SAID IT.)

The one word description for the BHO administration rhymes with oatluck. I think the damage will be limited by his own incompetence and unwillingness to compromise.

HGUNHNTR
November 4, 2008, 12:16 PM
Good for Cooper Firearms for standing up for who they beleive in.

JohnBT
November 4, 2008, 12:25 PM
"I know a guy who set his cooper on fire when he heard of their CEO's political musings."

You know a really, really, really stupid person. And you can tell him I said so.

Not only will I not burn my gun, I won't even burn my Cooper Firearms t-shirt. Dan Cooper is only one man and life goes on.

John

P.S. - How many of the folks boycotting Cooper own one? How many folks boycotting Cooper have the money to buy one and were even thinking about a purchase? How many folks boycotting Cooper had even heard of them when this story hit the news? Doesn't matter, but it might be interesting to know.

mljdeckard
November 4, 2008, 12:29 PM
Like I said before, I'll admire a man who stands for what he believes, no matter what. Doesn't mean that there are no consequences for it. And yes, I was looking at Cooper, along with many other options for the future.

rbernie
November 4, 2008, 12:30 PM
P.S. - How many of the folks boycotting Cooper own one? How many folks boycotting Cooper have the money to buy one and were even thinking about a purchase? How many folks boycotting Cooper had even heard of them when this story hit the news? Doesn't matter, but it might be interesting to know.Don't have one yet, but have the money and the interest and was shopping.

Horsemany
November 4, 2008, 12:34 PM
For those of you who think the sky is falling I'm sorry. I've heard for about 20 years now how the Dems will take guns away but it doesn't happen. mljdeckard,

These are the facts as I see them. The Republicans had their way for 8 years and look at where you are. Those are facts.

mljdeckard
November 4, 2008, 12:49 PM
Where I am? I'm warm and happy in my job. I'm eligible for a VA loan. 40 of 50 states are 'shall issue'. The justices Bush nominated delivered the Heller decision. Firearm manufacturers are now protected from frivolous third party lawsuits. Those are the facts REGARDLESS of how YOU see them.

The Clinton era assault weapons ban was the factor that gave the republicans both houses in 1994, but the next time, THEY WON'T BE STUPID ENOUGH TO MAKE IT TEMPORARY. Clinton ran the Eschelon Program in the NSA, which was far more intrusive than anything in the Patriot Act.

But I suppose you are ok with losing your rights, as long as it's only a little bit at a time. Again, if they fail to take them away, it won't be because they didn't want to, it will be because WE DIDN'T LET THEM.

Justin
November 4, 2008, 01:05 PM
For those of you who think the sky is falling I'm sorry. I've heard for about 20 years now how the Dems will take guns away but it doesn't happen.

If your only cutoff for defining rights-infringing gun legislation is whether or not anyone had a firearm physically confiscated by agents of the state, I would suggest that your definition of "gun control" is so watered down as to be patently meaningless.

If you disagree with the Republicans because of other issues, that's fine, but to try and claim that the Democrat party isn't anti gun is to either engage in flaunting your ignorance, or outright lying.

Nearly every piece of egregious anti-gun legislation has been proposed, forwarded, and authored by Democrats. Of course, if you disagree, you're certainly free to point to all of the legislation proposed by your party that has actually helped gun owners.

3pairs12
November 4, 2008, 01:17 PM
All this the repubs and the last 8 years crap is a little old also. Dems have had control of the house and a tie in the senate for the last 2. It seems to me that alot was achieved in those 6 years previous to the Pelosi Reed obamanation. I know this is not APS but just wanted to vent. Also if for 1 second you don't think our rights are in serious jeporady you need to think again. Soon there could be no balance of power and that scares the hell out of me. A certian presidential canidate wants common sense gun laws. That is what the Brady folks want also. To me it seems like I don't care how much common sense you have you can't own a gun. Look back just alttle bit and you will see they are trying to take our guns even if it is only a little at a time.

Art Eatman
November 4, 2008, 07:16 PM
Since the trend is wandering away from Cooper and the company...

I voted. :D

Art

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