My Apology..................................


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2dogs
January 4, 2003, 09:36 AM
.........to those who are not entirely familiar with the concept of free speech.

Perhaps a bit more study of the BoR and the Founding Fathers is in order.

No offense, but aside from libel and slander of an individual the 1st Amendment (for those with difficulties that would be the one before the 2nd) PROTECTS FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

You know, if you don't get it that's your problem not mine.




:banghead:

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Tamara
January 4, 2003, 09:39 AM
:confused:

And this is in relation to....?

Guyon
January 4, 2003, 09:42 AM
I figured it for just another Saturday morning rant.

2dogs
January 4, 2003, 09:44 AM
Tamara

Anyone who is offended by free speech, on a Bulletin board that was established I believe, at least in part, to stimulate the exchange of ideas is appaling.

If someone is uncomfortable with strong opinions on political issues then maybe the "Legal and Political" section should be changed to ............................

Aw, what's the use.


:banghead:

2dogs
January 4, 2003, 09:48 AM
By the way, this is a "public" apology because I was not provided with the "names" of individuals who were so personally offended- had I been I would have been more inclined to discuss the issue with them in a reasonable and private manner.
:fire:

St. Gunner
January 4, 2003, 09:59 AM
You deeply mortally offended me with your question about the dog, you big mean person you.:D People always seemed to get their tail feather bent when you ask a question that has emotional repercussions. They also do the same over a host of other issues at times. Don't sweat it, less you called someone a "backwards Arkansas Hillbilly that acts like Bill Clinton."

Where they such brave souls that they complained to the moderators and didn't address you personally about this issue? I always love that approach, then you don't even know who you want in a fox hole with ya, "Wait just minute, i'm going to go talk to the war monitor and tell em that guy just shot a softpoint at our foxhole, how dare he, I am so offended.":D

2nd Amendment
January 4, 2003, 10:21 AM
So, did you change the thread name or did the staff? I'd have been damned if I'd change it. You can bet your arse the one complaining was the same one engaging in the Nazi Ad Homs. Typical strategy I see on boards I mod and it gets real old real fast.

Note to staff, when succumbing to the PC complainers you get yourself a pain for life. Best choices, tell them to live with it and thicken their skin, or ban them and save yourself a lot of trouble in the future.

But hey, I've only been at this for seven years now so what would I know. :banghead:

2dogs
January 4, 2003, 10:22 AM
Where they such brave souls that they complained to the moderators and didn't address you personally about this issue? I always love that approach, then you don't even know who you want in a fox hole with ya,

St Gunner

BINGO:scrutiny: :D

Guy, if it comes to that there is room in my foxhole for ya:neener:

2dogs
January 4, 2003, 10:32 AM
So, did you change the thread name or did the staff?

2A

No sir, wasn't even consulted. Don't know if it would have been my decision if I were making it, but then I don't have to run roughshod over you hooligans and thugs.:rolleyes: :neener:

NO PERSONAL INSULT MEANT.

Marko Kloos
January 4, 2003, 11:08 AM
You know, if you don't get it that's your problem not mine.

You know, I just about blow a gasket every time someone invokes "freedom of speech" on a private forum. It betrays a fundamental misunderstanding about the Bill of Rights. The First Amendment protects freedom of speech against *government* interference, in the public arena. It does not apply to private ground.

I suggest you read the "Rules of Conduct" to which you agreed when you signed up here. As a refresher, I'll save you the mouseclick and quote the relevant section for you:


"A note on FREE SPEECH:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The First Amendment is greatly respected here on The High Road, as are all other Amendments that the Second Amendment defends. However, The High Road is private property and requests that members adhere to all forum policies. It is a contract agreed to by all who become members of The High Road. Those who break forum rules cannot invoke censorship or freedom of speech - a contract broken is a contract broken. If you do not like the rules of conduct or the acceptable topics, seek out a new venue to frequent or start your own board."

Guyon
January 4, 2003, 11:22 AM
Exactly. This ain't our forum. We're just hitch-hikers bumming a ride.

An analogy: You can go to work and spout off at the mouth. If your words are inflammatory enough, it'll get you fired. Why? It's a private space, and you're contractually bound to behave according to certain conventions. Same goes for as to why employers can monitor what you view on your (actually "their") computer.

Same in my house. You come in and start cursing or badmouthing me, and you'd be asked to leave.

Same here. Push the edge too far, and it'll get you banned. The discretion is that of the mods, but given that they're the same folks that were at TFL for the most part, I'd vouch for 'em.

I agree with ledsringer. Too many folks think that the 1st allows you to say whatever, whenever, wherever. That just ain't the case.

4v50 Gary
January 4, 2003, 11:40 AM
The Supremes have identified 3 types of forum: traditional (public parks, street and town hall), non-traditional (other places that may be opened for public meetings like libraries, other govt. bldgs, rented facilities) and private.

Depending on the forum, the right to free speech varies. Naturally, the forum with the least right to free speech is the private. You can't sit on someone's lawn waving a banner "Rapist" or "Child Molester" or anything else if the occupant objects to it. Even in a non-traditional forum, say the library, if a public meeting isn't scheduled for the day, you can't parade around inside and chanting slogans and waving signs. Of course, the highest degree of freedom is granted in the traditional public forum. Streets, sidewalks, public parks and City Hall. However, even these can be subject to reasonable time, place and manner restrictions. The police can deny a permit for a demonstration (denial cannot be arbitrary like saying yes to the Veterans of Foreign War on a Friday afternoon and no to the Communists the next Friday afternoon) if they find that it would result in too much disruption (say during Friday commute hours and on a 3 day weekend).

With regards to websites, they're private entities and the Webmaster and the staff may restrict the speech or type of speech used. The user of course is free to wander to other boards. Want a site with little restrictions on speech? Go to http://www.hardcoretalk.com Their free speech board is not for sensitive ears.

2dogs
January 4, 2003, 11:48 AM
lendsringer

There are only a few house rules:

1.) All topics and posts must be related to firearms or civil liberties issues.
2.) Multiple user registrations are prohibited.
3.) As a family-friendly board, we ask that you keep your language clean. If you wouldn't say it in front of your dear old Grandma, you probably don't want to say it here.
4.) Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer.
5.) We cannot provide a comprehensive list of "Things Not To Say".Posts that are contrary to the above policies, or to the mission of The High Road, may be edited or deleted at our sole discretion. Membership may be revoked if such a step is deemed necessary by us. We're a private venture enabled by an all-volunteer staff. Please treat this venue as a polite discussion in a friend's home and respect the wishes of the hosts.


So I am not sure which of these I violated.


The First Amendment protects freedom of speech against *government* interference, in the public arena. It does not apply to private ground.

Thank you so much for elucidating this for me. Perhaps I needed to be a little clearer in my post- as I know well what the Constitution says and means.

"The First Amendment is greatly respected here on The High Road, as are all other Amendments that the Second Amendment defends. However, The High Road is private property and requests that members adhere to all forum policies. It is a contract agreed to by all who become members of The High Road. Those who break forum rules cannot invoke censorship or freedom of speech - a contract broken is a contract broken. If you do not like the rules of conduct or the acceptable topics, seek out a new venue to frequent or start your own board. "

I believe that nothing I have posted either in my posts or replies has violated any rule of conduct for TheHighRoad, nor the spirit of the First Amendment to which TheHighRoad has stated it adheres.
Neither have I "broken a contract".





Exactly. This ain't our forum. We're just hitch-hikers bumming a ride.

Guyon

No it's not my forum- however I believe it is a public forum. I do not believe that I have "the right to say whatever I want" - I do have to live within the parameters set by the folks who own the board. See above.

If Oleg and the moderators want to kick out this hitchhiker then so be it- I really have no choice then do I. I will still lurk, but not post but then I did for years. And maybe I'll spend some time over at www.freespeech.org and try to learn more about the 1st Amendment.



"They have exiled me now from their society and I am pleased, because humanity does not exile except the one whose noble spirit rebels against despotism and oppression. He who does not prefer exile to slavery is not free by any measure of freedom, truth and duty." --Kahil Gibran

:)

Diesle
January 4, 2003, 12:06 PM
may be edited or deleted at our sole discretion

Holy crap, settle down.

Its only an internet forum. Grain of salt type stuff, you know... Once the words are out there, its public property. Out of your controll...

Diesle

2dogs
January 4, 2003, 01:38 PM
Yep, just checking- looks like I'm still sorry.:evil: :neener:

Steve Smith
January 4, 2003, 01:52 PM
2dogs, what part of "private" don't you understand? The owner of this forum has stated that it is a private one...it is not up for popular vote.

2dogs
January 4, 2003, 01:56 PM
2dogs, what part of "private" don't you understand? The owner of this forum has stated that it is a private one...it is not up for popular vote.

Steve, I'm not sure I understand. :uhoh:

priv8ter
January 4, 2003, 02:08 PM
What it comes down to is, somebody OWNS this forum. Someone went through the effort so we could all gather here to express our ides, opinions, and post 'which gun' threads to our hearts content.

However, it is not a Public Forum. When you register here, your position is that of an accepted guest, not a co-owner. So, much like a house guest, your are at the hosts discrestion as far as censorship goes.

If something you say offends another guest, then the moderators, acting on the owners behalf, need to take some sort of action.

it all comes down to TANSTAFL

But, to address your original post, I agree that the offended party should have contacted you first. During my time in the Navy, it always upset me when someone with an issue went over someones head to raise their concern.

Things like this should always be given an attempt to work out at the lowest possible level before moderators and administrator's are involved.

Mike Irwin
January 4, 2003, 02:26 PM
Deleted, as 2Dogs was not a part of the discussion I aluded to.

My apologies, 2Dogs.

2dogs
January 4, 2003, 02:30 PM
However, it is not a Public Forum. When you register here, your position is that of an accepted guest, not a co-owner. So, much like a house guest, your are at the hosts discrestion as far as censorship goes.

priv8ter

No where have I argued otherwise. Nowhere have I stated, publicly or privately that what you state above is not so.

I have responded to moderators who contacted me privately in a private manner. I have responded to moderators and others who have written here publicly in a public manner.

And I am STILL waiting for someone to show me where I have violated any of the rules of conduct of this board, or made personal attacks or insults to any member of this board, or done ANYTHING but speak my mind in as polite (hyperbole in the "politics" section not withstanding) a way as possible.

And I will continue to use humor, hyperbole, sarcasm, to make points just like everyone else here, as long as I am allowed to.

If the moderators want to shut down this thread, that is their decision to make, and I won't question it. If the owners of the board wish to disinvite me i won't question that either. But as long as I am not attacking anyone in a personal, rude, insulting manner then no one will silence me either.



:)

Mike Irwin
January 4, 2003, 02:33 PM
Wait one cotton picking second...

This wouldn't by chance be over your closed "They will shoot your dog thread," would it?

If so, you're WAY off base here.

That thread was closed for one reason and one reason alone -- someone else had posted it first.

If you want to contribute, give a quick scan of the forums to make sure someone hasn't posted an identical thread.

If someone beat you to the punch, post in their thread.

If you're the first person to hit the subject, congratulations.

But please don't for a second try to say that the closure of a redundant thread is somehow imposing on free speech.

Redundant threads are closed to save bandwith and to consolidate discussion.

2dogs
January 4, 2003, 02:35 PM
Mike Irwin

Mike, i'm trying to respond to anyone who is addressing me, I'm not sure if your post was directed toward me or not.

If someone wants to rant and screech obscenities at the top of your lungs there are bulletin boards that allow you to do that.

If the above was, I don't recall ever screeching obscenties. A hearty rant in the Political section- yeah- guilty.

:evil:

ed dixon
January 4, 2003, 02:53 PM
Well, this is dramatic and all, but till Mike mentioned the redundant dog thread I had no idea what started it. Was that it? I'm really boiling myself now and would just like to know why.

tyme
January 4, 2003, 02:54 PM
2dogs, why did you start this thread? What specific post(s) or pm(s) generated such hostility that you felt you had to drag everyone into the "freedom of speech" debate by ranting about it? How do you expect moderators to address such a ridiculously vague concern when they can't figure out what, specifically, you're complaining about?

"Free speech" is all about protected communication. The first post in this thread, IMHO, doesn't qualify as communication.

Mike Irwin
January 4, 2003, 03:05 PM
Ed,

In my first post I truly thought it was over the "A word on the profanity filter" post that was going on over the past couple of days.

Then I got to thinking, and realized that 2Dogs didn't post in that thread, so that couldn't be it.

So, obviously, I owe you an apology for the contenst of my first message, 2Dogs, because I should have done my homework a little more thorougly first.



Now, you still want to know why your thread was closed, what great sin you committed that would result in your First Amendment freedoms being quashed.

Simply, not a single thing. On that you're blameless.

On crying wolf, however? Guilty as charged.

As I noted above, your post was a simple housekeeping issue.

Why have multiple threads all addressing the same topic?

It's a waste of bandwidth and everyone's time. It also fractures what otherwise might result in extremely good discussions because everyone is posting randomly.

No joke on this. On TFL, when something hot would hit, it was not at all uncommon to see 3, 4, 5, or even MORE threads ALL addressing the same issue, simply because people were excited and didn't bother to check who had posted what.

Until the moderators managed to figure out who posted the first thread, and then merge them, it was often a 3-ring circus.

You try having a logical and productive discussion about a hot topic when it's spread over 4 threads. Can't be done.


You've so far posted some excellent, thought provoking threads here.

So a word to the wise.

Don't get your shorts in a wad simply because you run into a housekeeping issue.

And another word to the wise.

Check to make sure that someone else hasn't posted an identical thread before you post yours.

AZTOY
January 4, 2003, 03:10 PM
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

cuchulainn
January 4, 2003, 03:12 PM
What specific post(s) or pm(s) generated such hostility

Yeah, I was wondering that too :)

2dogs
January 4, 2003, 03:26 PM
Mike Irwin

Mike, just got back from a cold walk outside with the dogs, kind of noisy out there- our "Mummers" parade is taking place outside my door as we speak.

No, you did nothing to set me off.

Now this whole mess is really not worth batting another eye over.

I'm going back to reading and posting and will consider all of the advice/ info I have received publicly and privately.

:)

TarpleyG
January 4, 2003, 03:49 PM
I agree with 2dogs. The general discussion section was closed over at 1911Forum for just this reason. Some girl got her feathers ruffled apparently. Girls, just a word of advice, if you can't habg w/ the boys, leave. Nobody is making you read this stuff and the rest of us don't seem to have a problem with it. Just my .02...

GT

Betty
January 4, 2003, 05:37 PM
I agree with 2dogs. The general discussion section was closed over at 1911Forum for just this reason.

General Discussion over at 1911forum.com was "very" general, including such wonderful topics ranging from "What's your favorite color" to "Do you have belly button lint, too?" We don't have that here and wouldn't lock down a forum because of a few undesirable topics or complaints.

Some girl got her feathers ruffled apparently. Girls, just a word of advice, if you can't hang w/ the boys, leave.

-chuckle-

We have several female members on these forums. Word of advice: if you can't hang with us ladies, leave. Some of us don't take prisoners. :p

http://www.olegvolk.net/newphotos/tn/thisgirlismad.jpg

sw442642
January 4, 2003, 06:00 PM
Ok - it is amazing that with a new forum, we surface:

1. The First Amendment gives me the right to be a jackorifice.
2. Why do there have to be women here, we boys want to talk about
our peepees and things like that.

I really have to laugh.

:p

Bainx
January 4, 2003, 06:12 PM
TwoGuns---where are you on all of this?

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