What if they abandoned **********???


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ebd10
June 29, 2006, 05:06 PM
What if law-abiding gun owners finally said "ENOUGH!" and began moving out of the state? I mean, I totally understand the allure of the place, but what would the ramifications be if gun owners pulled a small-scale "Atlas Shrugged" and began pursuing employment elsewhere? Are the demographics among gun owners the type that would impact the state as a whole?

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El Tejon
June 29, 2006, 05:11 PM
Not even a hiccup. Any "vaccuum" would be quickly filled so that it would not be noticable.

Freddymac
June 29, 2006, 05:14 PM
but i did read that the fastest growing sport/hobby among people 25-35 who make over $100K a year is up land bird hunting. Skeet/trap is not too far behind.

Prof. A. Wickwire
June 29, 2006, 05:22 PM
What if the move included firearm and firearm accessories manufacturers as well as firearm owners? From what I have read, most of the USA produced magazines are made in California. How would the CA economy deal with that kind of manufacturing vacuum?

Sincerely,

Prof. A. Wickwire

Henry Bowman
June 29, 2006, 05:23 PM
"Gun owners," even "law-abiding gun owners," is not a useful label. Many who "own" a gun see it as no more than a relic of their youth or of an ancestor. It does not equate to freedom to them in any respect. To others, it is a piece of sporting equipment with no political implication whatsoever.

If you took all of the people who would move, even if all were committed to the move togther, and they all moved out the same day, they would be outnumbered by the illegals entering the state that same day. Not an equal trade, granted. But the number would not even be noticed beyond a very small circle.

ArmedBear
June 29, 2006, 05:37 PM
I'm not sure, Henry.

Gun enthusiasts include a lot of CA engineers and IT people. Illegal immigrants aren't exactly going to fill those jobs.

I think that what is happening is that people are leaving, but one at a time. We'll probably end up leaving, too. Gun laws are just a bellweather, really. There are lots of reasons to leave. The weather is still here (in the coastal South, anyway) but the culture that was once all about innovation, do-it-yourself, try-something-new, and leave-me-alone has largely deteriorated. Taxes are high, schools are terrible, housing is incredibly expensive, and public employee unions own the legislature.

Either California is going to undergo a major change, or it will just become exactly like the New York that Californians were trying to escape a generation or two ago. It's already happened, to a large degree.

billwiese
June 29, 2006, 06:03 PM
The relative size of the gun market is very small relative to CA's economy. So threats to the gun biz in CA rate barely a raised eyebrow and a 'so what'?

Sure there'd be some hurt to economy if all gun owners could move, but they can't. Most peoples' lives don't revolve around guns. Many have families that are tied down here for various reasons. And moves are traumatic for elderly in extended families. Or family members' jobs are not portable: hubby and wife have to coordinate carrers. You think a leading edge biotech guy is gonna move from the home of biotech, out to Kansas or Idaho? Sure, but only after retirement.

And howzabout parents that don't want their kids taught in schools rife w/ creationist/'intelligent design' sentiment? (Many people here would pay to avoid that, and would regard the imposition of that cr*p in their schools as an act of war.)

There's also the financial penalty given housing costs here (at least in Bay Area). If you move out/sell out it might be difficult coming back into the same home you left, and when other areas slump in tech sector, CA seems to come back first (i.e, your new job might well be back in CA).

Some of us try to stay and fight. Four or 5 people, incl myself, managed to get 40+K unlisted AR lowers into CA. There are people here that never thought they'd be able to shoot an AR in California that now have them (admittedly tweaked) but at least they are positioned well in case a fed ban comes again.


Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

Baba Louie
June 29, 2006, 06:38 PM
Would only work if mfg.'s who sell to LE agencies did what Barret had the stones to do. Not sell or repair any of their firearms owned by CA LEO's... and that wouldn't sit well with LE agencies across the rest of the US... or they'd circumvent it by buying from an outside agency or Mexico. Should the police agencies find themselves outgunned by bad guys, it'd be open season on the helpless remaining citizens... and that'd really be a bad thing.

And why must California be spelled with a "K"?

But, it is an interesting thought and might make a good fictional read if someone were to run with and develop that line of thinking, i.e., both good useful citizens leaving state and LE agencies suddenly using outdated, confiscated weaponry they recover from bad guys... maybe throw in an earthquake and volcanic eruption or two, tsunami, terrorist plot, etc.

ArmedBear
June 29, 2006, 06:42 PM
when other areas slump in tech sector, CA seems to come back first

We'll see about next time around.

As you said, I don't think the gun business would impact CA that much. It's the overall cultural change that is impacting California.

The innovation, entrepeneurship, etc. are slowly leaking out. It's not BECAUSE of the gun laws; it's because of the socio-political situation that led to the gun laws, among other things.

PRCalDude
June 29, 2006, 06:54 PM
I'm an engineer in SoCal, and I like my firearms. Personally, I think laws are so structured that you're pretty much not even allowed to defend youself here, thus making the deterrent value of private firearms ownership almost nil. On paper, you're allowed to shoot a guy if he's in your house and not running away, but you better call your lawyer if you do. Also, there's no concealed carry permits, so you can't actually have your weapons with you the places you most need them, ie the car, grocery store, etc, in case another Muslim decides to go on a killing rampage and you're in the area. It's fine not owning firearms here as long as the government takes law enforcement seriously, which pretty much involves leaving Republican law enforcement policies alone. Thus, law enforcement seems to be an election-by-election thing. Basically, from a crime standpoint, the effect of gunowners moving out won't be significant, unless California starts becoming anarchical. I think we're a ways off from that, unless CAIR keeps having successes against our local FBI and law enforcement.

shooter94
June 29, 2006, 07:24 PM
El Tejon stated it well...I'll be out in five years or less.

50 Shooter
June 29, 2006, 07:49 PM
:rolleyes:

Prof
June 29, 2006, 07:50 PM
California has been changing and moving to the Left ever since I moved here in 1958. It is still a good place to live in some ways and in some areas. I am approaching retirement but will probably never leave because my grandchildren are here and they are a major part of my life. Now if I could get their families to move with us, I'm gone! :) I live in a pretty conservative county so I have a CCW, I shoot at two ranges as a civilian shooter and work with lots of pro-gun folks even though I work at a college! In fact, a fellow worker and I have just become advisors to a new rifle club on campus (and it is the second gun club; the first is a trap club). So don't judge all of California by the great swamp known as Los Angeles. (Just most of it! :D )

Phetro
June 29, 2006, 08:19 PM
What if law-abiding gun owners finally said "ENOUGH!" and began moving out of the state? I mean, I totally understand the allure of the place, but what would the ramifications be if gun owners pulled a small-scale "Atlas Shrugged" and began pursuing employment elsewhere? Are the demographics among gun owners the type that would impact the state as a whole?

WHAT allure? The best blessing the US can have at this point is for every sane person (all five hundred of them) to leave that socialist dungheap, followed by a massive earthquake putting it in the ocean.

50 Shooter
June 29, 2006, 08:21 PM
:rolleyes:

Prof
June 29, 2006, 08:22 PM
Sounds like you've never been to California, Phetro. Now Indiana, there's a nothing state! :D

torpid
June 29, 2006, 08:36 PM
My area of CA is a really great place to live... or it would be with the exception of idiotic laws created and supported by my fellow Californians.

Frankly I'd love to stay here, if it wasn't for the bile rising up in the back of my throat daily from all of the political pollution.

.

azredhawk44
June 29, 2006, 09:28 PM
Kindof a neat idea... Instead of a natural disaster like New Orleans, it's a political disaster.

10 million successful people (about 15% of the population of California) sell their expensive homes quickly. Real estate prices in California drop significantly, but these folks don't care since they are moving to the heartland.

These 10 million include CEO's, CFO's, upper management, inventors, small businessmen.

They organize and build small communities based around their industries and re-employ displaced california workers who left in the Great Egress.

California's tax base plummets and social programs are cut due to all the businesses that cut bait and went back to America, taking their high-wage jobs (and tax base) with them.

Those same businesses refuse to sell or do business in california.

Fun idea.

50 Shooter
June 29, 2006, 09:39 PM
How about all the people that come up with these threads and the people that reply to just bash California move here? Then you could really put your money where your mouth is! Help us vote the politicians that come up with this crap out of office and return Cali. to it's former self.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Hank Zudd
June 29, 2006, 10:00 PM
50 shooter-that'll never happen (vote out the Bast@rds) Look what they did getting almost every military base in Nocal closed; Rodney King riots proved cops can't help you in event of another blowup; ALOT of large business that started in Kali moved out totally in the 18 years I was there{Schlagle Lock from Huntington Bch & SF and others I can't remember} Moving out is just what the warm-fuzzy-feeling-liberals want. There's alot I wish was not in California so the rest of us could enjoy it (Yosemite, Kings Canyon, tuna fishing off San Diego) without having to wade thru the bile to get there. I moved out to cash out my house & move back to central Tx & be near family. Your results may vary. :)

crazed_ss
June 29, 2006, 10:07 PM
What if law-abiding gun owners finally said "ENOUGH!" and began moving out of the state? I mean, I totally understand the allure of the place, but what would the ramifications be if gun owners pulled a small-scale "Atlas Shrugged" and began pursuing employment elsewhere? Are the demographics among gun owners the type that would impact the state as a whole?

Not all CA gun owners speak with one voice. The AW Ban and fact that this isnt a shall issue state are the two issues that really bother me as a gun owner.. The average gun owner (read: not enthusiast) probably isnt bothered by our gun laws that much. His or her biggest inconvenience would be the 10 day waiting period which isnt that big of deal.

Many people dont have an issue with our gun laws.. hence the reason they pass so easily.. A number of people even agree with them. My boss, a former Marine Captain, has a shotgun for home defense and regularly goes to the range with his buddies, but he doesnt think people shouldnt have "Assault Weapons" or .50 cals.. he also thinks concealed carry permits should be strictly regulated. I'm willing to bet my boss isnt alone in his thinking.

jwharris
June 29, 2006, 10:07 PM
check out californiaccw.org (http://californiaccw.org).

Discussion forum for CCW issuance policies in California, including discussion of sheriffs' elections and police chief policies.

shooter94
June 29, 2006, 10:18 PM
In my area of California, average price on a house is 600K. Average rent is a little over 1K.

Service jobs dominate the local job scene paying around 7 to 10 dollars an hour...

Gunlaws are insane...

Gone in five years or less...:mad: :barf:

torpid
June 29, 2006, 10:36 PM
Gone in five years or less...

Let's all have a race!

(paging fjolnirsson...)

;)

Croyance
June 29, 2006, 10:43 PM
Bird hunters & skeet/trap shooters seem less active and concerned about gun rights than most gun owners. The fact that they earn more (or at least that growing 25-35 age group making $100K+) makes this worse - they feel more entitled and less affected by the things.

I think what Prof A Wickwire said - accessory and magazine manufacturers - is even less of a factor. I think porn adds more to the California economy. On the scale of things, the firearms industry is not large.

Creeping Incrementalism
June 29, 2006, 11:10 PM
Let's all have a race!

Count me in.

Someone sponsor a listed AR and AK as the prize.

Kim
June 30, 2006, 02:56 AM
What they need to do is have a symbolic walk out march. This is the problem with us 2nd amendment people we do not play be the lefty playbook to whine and scream in the streets to get attention.

GrammatonCleric
June 30, 2006, 03:10 AM
We may be a nothing state, but we're a WELL-ARMED nothing state:p

UnknownSailor
June 30, 2006, 03:46 AM
For all intents and purposes, when I joined the Navy, I left California. I was sent overseas for 2 years as my first command, and when I came back, the climate wasn't too much different. However, I left for Japan again 21 months later, and when I cam back home from that two year stint in 2000, well, damn. No "high cap" mags, no way to scratch my EBR itch, and ESL people everywhere I looked.
So, I took orders to Washington State, and haven't looked back.

I just got reminded recently of why I left, too. Car #2 is my old '68 bug, still with CA plates. I let them expire in 2003, since I got a new car 6 months prior to that, and the VW just sits waiting for me to get the money together and fix it.

I got a $360 judgement for late registration fees last week. :rolleyes:

mordechaianiliewicz
June 30, 2006, 04:19 AM
The brain drain of Cali has already been mentioned, and that guns are but one piece of a much larger mosaic. Why live in a rediculously high tax state with rediculous land values, and rent prices, when you can get a much better deal in no income tax, no corporate tax, Uzi legal Nevada right across the border?

Even people that don't own guns or are ambivalent probably still want an easier life.

As Shooter 94? pointed out, average house, 600K

Average monthly rent: 1K

Average hourly salary for unskilled labour: 7-10 bucks an hour. No wonder people make up for rent by putting 4-5 illegals in their basement. In fact, the illegal problem, combined with manufacturing being outsourced caused this problem.

The illegals who come in droves to do jobs Americans won't do for slave wages need a place to stay, which in turn drives up costs of housing, untilities, insurance, etc.

These illegals do jobs which would pay $15-$20, and make these jobs only worth $5-$10 per hour.

No one can live on that and afford the homes around there.

Unfortunately, this leads to calls for ever greater taxes and welfare to make up the slack of cut wages and benefits, which makes employers want to go out of sate, and "offshore" earnings (whether literally, or just out of state).

Such welfare is not without price, and so you give up more privacy to the tax man, more property rights to the government, and your guns to the police power to try to regulate urban sprawl, and higher rent, expanded welfare, and increasing crime amongst the illegals, and other unsavory sorts.

Over time, this will go to the rest of the country unless we can nip it in the bud.

(Sorry, rant off) :)

686+
June 30, 2006, 04:27 AM
I think a lot of talent is leaving CA due to various factors. We had 5 people in the past year leave due to not being able to afford a decent house close to work. (I don't mean a huge house, just something that will comfortably house them and their family). While this is not a huge number for my company, these were the type of people that would be leaders in the future.
Personally, firearms restirctions are pushing me over the move out of here edge, but are not the key driver, those are house prices, school quality concerns, and "values" - I just don't want to be a part of this Socialist crap anymore.
As soon as we find a state with "secure" jobs, cheap land and houses, and a marine business opportunity for my dad, we are moving us and all four of the grandparents. (And then I might be able to finally buy a PC Recon40 :neener: )

686+
June 30, 2006, 04:31 AM
I think a lot of talent is leaving CA due to various factors. We had 5 people in the past year leave the company due to not being able to afford a decent house close to work. (I don't mean a huge house, just something that will comfortably house them and their family). While this is not a huge number for my company, these were the type of people that would be leaders in the future.
Personally, firearms restirctions are pushing me over the move out of here edge, but are not the key driver, those are house prices, school quality concerns, and "values" - I just don't want to be a part of this Socialist crap anymore.
As soon as we find a state with "secure" jobs, cheap land and houses, and a marine business opportunity for my dad, we are moving us and all four of the grandparents. (And then I might be able to finally buy a PC Recon40 :neener: )

mountainclmbr
June 30, 2006, 11:49 PM
Give California back to Mexico. They deserve each other.

leadcounsel
July 1, 2006, 12:45 AM
CA is a failing, dismally failing, experiment.

It's already been mentioned but worth repeating that there is no middle class and the cost of living makes it impossible for all but the most wealthy to survive and move upward.

What really is the allure. Sure, if you can afford to live near the coast, it may be beautiful. Big deal! And sure the weather is nice and BORING year round. Wow, another dry sunny day. Big deal! For me, I like the change of the seasons of the midwest, or the variety of Colorado.

And when you weigh the two benefits (coast and weather) against the cost of living, illegals, dumb laws and lawlessness, overcrowding, etc. you couldn't drag me there to live!

But, I hope all those socialists stay there and get what they deserve! All the gun owners SHOULD leave today.

Euclidean
July 1, 2006, 12:51 AM
It is honestly beyond me how anyone can afford to live in **********. I genuinely feel sorry for people who have to live there. I know it's not as simple as "Well I'll just move..." because I couldn't just up and move even if I wanted to at this point in my life.

Kudos to those of you who try to get CCW, who bring in the off list receivers, and do everything you can to fight the tide. I don't blame anybody for wanting to get the hell out though.

As for me, I'll never move there for the simple reason I can't afford a $600k house!

QuickDraw
July 1, 2006, 03:28 AM
I can't afford a $600k house!

Me neither!!:eek:

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