SRH .454Casull or .460 S&W????


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Blacklabman
July 4, 2006, 05:51 PM
I want a new hunting revolver.
My .357mags and .44mags are great, but I want something new.
SA's are out, I like/prefer DA revolver's.
I have narrowed it down to two choices.
1. The SRH 7.5" .454 Casull
2. The S&W.460. (5" or 6.5")
Both are obviously big revolvers. Neither qualify for the three P's, but what the heck this one time
My likes and hangups are these.
SRH
The SRH is the cheapest and has a great reputation for toughness and accuracy. The .454 is a solid performer but with the .44mag loads from Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, and Garrett Hammerheads, I question if there is still a really difference between the two.
.454 Casull ammo is not expensive anymore.
As big and as bulky as it is, I like the SRH .454 Casull.
S&W .460
The .460 can fire .45Colt, .454 Casull, and .460. It can now be has with 5" and 6.5" barrels.
The gain twist of the .460 is suppose to make a 5" barrel perform like a 8" one.
Longer ethical shots are possible with the .460.
Ammo for the .460 is expensive. If it is worth the cost, then so be it. The S&W .460 revolver itself is not cheap.

No matter which I buy, it will wear a scope to make the best of the performance offered.

I have shot both, and like both. I do not mean to keep bringing up price. I just paid for two Out of State hunting leases. Sticker shock has not worn off yet. hehehe
This new revolver is want, not a need. I just want to make the best investment for my money.
I would like to hear both pro and cons, for those who own these revolvers.

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454c
July 5, 2006, 06:23 AM
Ballistic wise- 454 vs 460 is like the 308 vs 30-06, flip a coin.

Decide if you want a "big" and "bulky" SRH or a bigger and bulkier x-frame.

Blacklabman
July 5, 2006, 07:16 AM
Going crosseyed looking at the charts (fps, foot pounds, drop etc) and reading the hype, I had not thought of it in those terms.
The upside is that the 5" .460 is a handier package and can be left with open sights and carried on the hip, or easily scoped and provide's better ballistics than the 7.5 SRH .454Casull.
The downside is that reports are no coming in(gunshops,and internet) about a very severe drop in accuaracy around 1k rounds.
If true, one tends to seriously wonder about throat erosion, and barrel life.

454c
July 5, 2006, 04:05 PM
QUOTE:
The upside is that the 5" .460 is a handier package and can be left with open sights and carried on the hip, or easily scoped


Both can use open sights,be carried on the hip and easily scoped.When comparing the 5" model,you gotta decide what's more important,the oal or the weight ?

SRH 7 1/2" brl. - OAL-13 1/8" ---weight-53 1/2 oz.

x frame 5"brl. - OAL-11 1/4" ---weight-62.5 oz.




Quote:
and provide's better ballistics than the 7.5 SRH .454Casull.



You might want to look again.The closest apples to apples comparison I've found so far is from Cor Bon.

454 - 7 1/2" brl. - 300gr.JSP - 1,650 fps

460 - 8.375"brl. - 300gr.JSp - 1,750 fps


454 - 7 1/2" brl. - 320gr. fppn - 1,600 fps

460 - 8.375" brl. - 325gr. bc - 1,650 fps


Keep an eye on the barrel length.The 460 has an edge of only 50-100 fps with a longer barrel.What do you think is gonna happen when you lose 3.375" of barrel length ?

Redhawk1
July 5, 2006, 05:55 PM
I currently have 2 of the 460's, a 5 inch and a 7.5 inch PC model. I had 5 total of the 460's but my buddies liked them so much they wanted one of mine, seeing how they were set up with red-dots and sighted in already. My buddies loved the accuracy and how well the guns functioned. I could take any of the five 460's and shoot 4 inch clay targets consistently at 150 yards. I know several other guys that have switched to the 460 with no regrets at all. I have had the Ruger Super Redhawk in 454 Casull, a Freedom Arms 454 Casull and in my opinion the S&W 460 Mag flat out, out performers them.
I have sold all my other hunting handguns after I started shooting the 460 Mag. The only hunting handguns I own now are, 2 S&W 460 Mags and 2 of the 500 Mags, one a 4 inch S&W 500 and a 6 inch BFR 500 Mag custom. The 460 Mag is my favorite round. Also I have over 1000 rounds through my 7.5 inch PC model and I don't have any sign of throat erosion or loss of accuracy. :cool:

All of this information is from someone that owns and shoots the 460, not from what I think or what someone else told me. :D

Blacklabman
July 5, 2006, 10:08 PM
454c,
You are correct. The .460 does weight more than the SRH. When held in the hand and shot, it actually feels lighter and smaller. Go figure.


On the velocity figures.
The Ballistic Tables I am looking at, only gives the figures for the 8 3/8" .460. Or 7.5" if you disregard the compensator.

A. Cor Bon
200gr XPB 2300 fps
325gr SP 1650 fps
275gr X 1750 fps
395gr HC 1525 fps
B. Hornady
200gr SST 2300 fps

Some listing for the .454 Causll out of a 7.5" barrel are.
A. Cor Bon
240gr JHP 1450 fps
265gr JSP 1800 fps
265gr JSP 1700 fps
320gr FP 1600 fps
325gr L 1600 fps
B. Hornday
240gr JHP 1900 fps
300gr JHP 1650 fps

With this said, I am going with the 7.5" SRH .454 Casull.
A guy at work, had one that I bought this afternoon. It is 5 months old, and barely shot(less than 12 rounds). He decided he did not like it, and I was able to buy it for $400.
I shot 18 rounds of Hornday 300gr's thru it.
I Love it.

Redhawk 1,
It is great to hear from someone who actually owns the .460 S&W. So many times when talking with shooter's in person, it seems the information comes from someone who heard from someones brother.
Your reply is greatly appreciated.
I have decided that I am going to buy a .460. But not right now. With recently paying for two leases, and buying the SRH today at a good price, I cannot justify another 1.2k for a .460 plus 300 or so the scope at this time.
Family expenses come first.
I do plan on buying a PC 6.5" version by November.

Thanks again to both of you, for your help.

BusMaster007
July 5, 2006, 10:30 PM
Hard to beat a gun that shoots 3 different kinds of ammo and can be worn in a holster...:D

Sounds like the 5" .460 is a great choice for you.

TC-TX
July 5, 2006, 11:16 PM
Blacklabman -

I had the same delimma, only add to it my desire for the Raging Bull 454...

I went with the S&W 460 XVR... a bit more expensive but one HECK of a platform!

Three rounds to choose from - Versatility.

Gain twist rifling - Accuracy.

.460 Capabilities - Just Plain AWESOME to SHOOT!!!!

Happy Hunting!

TC-TX
July 5, 2006, 11:17 PM
(pardon my ignorance) What are the Three P's? :confused:

TC-TX
July 5, 2006, 11:20 PM
Never mind... I figured it out... :o

BusMaster007
July 6, 2006, 02:20 AM
3 P's?
I didn't figure it out, what are they?:confused:

Redhawk1
July 6, 2006, 08:43 AM
Powerful, Practical, and Packable

MachIVshooter
July 6, 2006, 11:11 PM
While the .460 is an awesome rounds, it's performance is severely hindered in a shorter barrel. If you are looking at the 8-3/8" or longer, it is superior to the Casull. But from a 5 or 6" gun, the only thing you end up with is a larger, heavier gun that holds fewer rounds. The 6" .460 is more unweildy (and more expensive) than the 7.5" SRH.

Redhawk1
July 6, 2006, 11:34 PM
MachIVshooter, with a 5 inch 460 Mag you will not loose much in the way of the velocity or performance. I am not taking anything away from a 454 Casull, but it is not a 460 Mag by no means.

Goodshot
July 7, 2006, 03:04 AM
I've had my 6.5" PC 460 for 6 months and love it. I have chronographed the factory 200 grain Hornadys at 2320. That's smokin' for a 6 1/2" barrel. And it's accurate !
The barrell has another inch of compensator on it so is actually 7 1/2". I put a Simmons 2x7 on it and over a good rest it will shoot under 2" at 100 yds. Nice gun....

454c
July 7, 2006, 06:25 AM
Quote:
but it is not a 460 Mag by no means.




How do you figure?

I've got a SRH 454 and when the 460 hit the spotlight,it had my attention.............until I started looking at apples-to-apples comparisons(as close as I could find).50-100 fps.?!?!

It's kinda funny actually.S&W re-invented the 454,chambered it in a heavier,bulkier revolver and charged more money for it.:D

And no,this is not a slam on the 460.They are so close that a slam to one cartridge is a slam to the other.They are both good cartridges but,neither one stands head and shoulders over the other.

Redhawk1
July 7, 2006, 07:56 AM
454c, come on! .50-100 fps.?!?! :rolleyes: I hate to say BS, but that is a crock of BS. There is not way with 10 more grains of powder that the 460 Mag has, are you only going to get a 50-100 fps difference. What you 454 Casull guys fail to realize is you can't get enough powder in the 454 Casull case to get the same velocities you can get with the 460 Mag without blowing up your guns. The case of the 454 Casull can only hold so much powder. When you can get 2300 fps in a 454 Casull come back and talk to me about it, until then, your dream does not hold water. It is like saying the 45 Colt can reach the velocities of the 454 Casull.

Like I said before, the 454 Casull is a great cartridge and I don't take anything away from it, but lets face it, it cannot do what the 460 Mag will do. (CASE CAPASITY). :banghead: :banghead:

Stainz
July 7, 2006, 09:14 AM
My favorite .454 load for my long-time 7.5" SRH was the Hornady 240gr XTP. During the years I shot it, Hornady rated it's velocity at 2,000 fps first, then 1,900 fps, and finally, 2,000 fps again. I chrono-ed them several times at 1,985 - 1,995 fps. At that, they produce 2,130 ft-lb of KE... just how much do you need? I usually had a 2x28mm Weaver H2 on mine - until I found full lens reading diopter safety glasses - +1.00 allowed me to see the iron sights and a target once again, so I added a front fiber optic sight. Standing, handheld, and scoped, I could ping a 12"-16" steel plate at 100-110yd six times out of six - a bit less with that fiber optic sight. I got 1.5" five-shot groups (I allow a flier!) at 50yd twice, with those 240gr .454's.

The SRH has a slow twist that favors the fast .454's. I shot ~500 of the .240's, a mix of other .454's, and thousands of .45 Colts. The usual .45 Colt 'cowboy' load didn't fare so well, grouping 3-4" at 25yd, and under 6" at 50yd being considered 'good' for mine. I did find my 250gr LRNFP's at 900 fps from .454 cases were much better, and that's what I reloaded my .454 cases at - glorified 'cowboy' loads. I just plinked with my SRH... and enjoyed it immensely, with the OEM springs and grip, until my CTS problems convinced me to say good-bye to it. I swapped it for a LN No. 1H in .458 Lott - and that plus a few bucks for a new 5" h-l 686+ 'Stocking Dealer Exclusive'. I miss my SRH...

I am a dyed in the wool S&W-nut, but, I think the X-frame .500 Magnum is the only X-frame I would buy. That .460 was derated from 2,600+ fps to 2,300 fps - and now that may be too much for the rifling. The SRH is made from a different 'hi tech' SS - with a solid/massive one piece barrel. The SRH is well made, if ungainly looking, and has the GP-100 style lockwork and grip. The S&W trigger will be better in DA post-breakin, but the SRH isn't bad. In fact, my factory tweaked .45 Redhawk's trigger would rate as much worse than my old SRH... they really do breakin quite well. Enjoy your SRH - you did quite well for $400!

Stainz

PS Lube it and dry-fire the thing - it'll 'wear in' quite well, probably after 1,000-1,200 trigger pulls. Clean and lightly lube before you take it to the range. Don't re-spring it - 'clicks' are not good to hear when you are expecting a massive 'crack' from a .454!

Redhawk1
July 7, 2006, 09:22 AM
Stainz, had the 460 Mag come out before the 500 Mag, the 500 Mags would not of faired so well. I know a lot of guys that are selling there 500 Mags or have sold there 500 Mags when they got there 460 Mags. I like both the 460 & 500 Mags and have 2 of each. But in my opinion the 460 Mags fits me better. Sure the X frame is big and heavy, but the recoil reduction is well worth it in my opinion. My FA 454 Casull would rock my world with them 325 gr. cast bullets, but those same rounds in my 460 Mag are like shooting a light 45 Colt. We all have our reasons for liking our chosen handguns. :D

454c
July 7, 2006, 03:49 PM
QuOTE:
454c, come on! .50-100 fps.?!?! I hate to say BS, but that is a crock of BS.


Prove me wrong Redhawk.I've posted the closest cartridge specs I have been able to find.Where can a shooter buy ammo that blows the 454 away in an apples-to-apples comparison?

Oh yes.The "2300 fps" claim to fame.What bullet did they use to achieve that number? And what bullet did they compare it to ?

Redhawk1
July 7, 2006, 11:23 PM
454c, I don't have to prove anything to you. If you can't see that the 460 Mag holds 10 more grains of powder over the 454 Casull and as you stated only gets 50 to 100 fps difference you are WRONG! :banghead:

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. You keep thinking your 454 Casull can match the 460 Mag. I guess we don't have anything further to discuss.

454c
July 7, 2006, 11:40 PM
QUOTE:
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.



I guess so.I believe in specs,not opinions.Have a nice day.:)

Redhawk1
July 7, 2006, 11:47 PM
If you believe in specs so much why don't you do the work yourself? You are reading spec's off the side of the boxes or what you read. You are not going by real data you have produced yourself. Not an opinion just facts. Enjoy trying to get your 454 Casull to shoot like a 460 mag, oh and don't blow up your gun in the process. :D

cnyankee
July 8, 2006, 12:56 AM
i own a 460vxr 8 2/3 in barrel and use Hornady
200gr SST. i love it and makes an accurate pig handgun. makes it easier tracking with hands free(bandoleer holster)....when im practicing with it at the range it is the star attraction...even the range masters check it out...an lady friends can fire it with 45lc...recoil is less than a 22 (with 45lc not 454 or 460). 460 round has a nice kick. also if you get a scope for it get a good strong scope .recoil will destroy cheap scopes.

Redhawk1
July 8, 2006, 07:47 AM
cnyankee, the funny thing about this conversation is, there are some of us the own and shoot 460 Mags, and then there are those that want to take away from the 460 and they have never owned or shot one. To me the ones that own and shoot them carry more credibility over those that just read and post about ballistics. :D

I also owned a 8 3/8 inch 460 Mag also. It was a tack driver, I put quit a few rounds through it and then got the 10.5 inch PC 460 Mag. My buddy liked my 8 3/8 inch so much I sold it to him. I put about 200 rounds through my 10.5 inch PC model and then bought two of the 7.5 inch PC models and then sold the 10.5 inch. I just liked the shorter 7.5 inch barrels. One of my hunting buddies liked my 7.5 inch PC models so much he bought one off of me. But I got a 5 inch Model while I still had the two 7.5 in models. So now I have 3 other buddies that shoot the 460 Mag, the good thing is, they bought them for what I paid for them, also I had them set up with either scopes or red-dot and sighted in, all they had to do was buy the ammo. :D

Blacklabman
July 8, 2006, 10:56 AM
Stainz,
That you for your reply, and you your chrono findings with the 7.5" SRH.
A chronograph is something I am going to look into.
Finding the REAL velocities as opposed to what is posted by the ammo companies, is something that should be of interest to all of us.
The more I shoot this big, ugly SRH, the more I love it.

Redhawk,
I am curious. What kind of velocity differences are you seeing between the 5" and the 8 3/8 .460?

Redhawk1
July 8, 2006, 11:59 AM
Blacklabman, I am only getting a 50 to 100 fps difference. My buddy has a chronograph and we wanted to see the difference also. Not a lot of difference. I am shooting 240 gr. Hornady XTP Mag's at 2160 to 2185 fps in my 7.5 inch.

454c
July 8, 2006, 04:39 PM
Oh good grief!!!


Quote:
You are reading spec's off the side of the boxes or what you read. You are not going by real data you have produced yourself.

So the ammo manu. just pull the specs out of the air and should not be used when comparing loads and cartridges ?:scrutiny:

Quote:
the funny thing about this conversation is, there are some of us the own and shoot 460 Mags, and then there are those that want to take away from the 460 and they have never owned or shot one. To me the ones that own and shoot them carry more credibility over those that just read and post about ballistics.

So if I buy a revolver and shoot a box of ammo,I would then be an expert in that cartridge and able to claim whatever I wanted? :scrutiny: Interesting.That means I can claim a 308 is nowhere near the 30-06 since my main hunting gun is a 30-06.I could....... but the numbers would prove me wrong.

No one has tried to take anything away from the 460.Just looking for verification of the hype that surrounds it and for some reason that upsets you.:scrutiny:


MY QUOTE:
I've posted the closest cartridge specs I have been able to find.Where can a shooter buy ammo that blows the 454 away in an apples-to-apples comparison?


Still waiting.;)

cnyankee
July 8, 2006, 10:29 PM
redhawk1 i agree, also thanks for the advice you gave me on what kind of scope i should get for my 460 a few months ago. the leopoldIII is strong enough to take the recoil and finding target is quick...a great gun deserves a great scope

Redhawk1
July 9, 2006, 02:34 AM
454c, no hype. The 460 will out due the 454 Casull. Try it yourself. Load 240 gr XTP's mag's to the max in both cases with the same type powder and run them through a chronograph. Do the same for any like bullet with it's max load and you will see. Also go buy some factory ammo with the same weight bullets and run them through a chronograph and see your results. You will have a different perspective of the 460 Mag.

You can call yourself anything you want to, expert, now it all, box reader it does not matter to me. I know what the 454 Casull will do and I know what the 460 Mag will do, I took the time to do the work and shot both rounds in the same gun , Oh yea you can't do that, the SRH will not shoot the 460 Mag. :neener:

Do a little more research and get back to me. Hope you did not wait to long for my answer. :D

Redhawk1
July 9, 2006, 02:36 AM
cnyankee, great choice of scope, I am sure you won't be let down. :cool:

454c
July 9, 2006, 07:00 AM
Quote:
454c, no hype. The 460 will out due the 454 Casull. Try it yourself. Load 240 gr XTP's mag's to the max in both cases with the same type powder and run them through a chronograph. Do the same for any like bullet with it's max load and you will see. Also go buy some factory ammo with the same weight bullets and run them through a chronograph and see your results. You will have a different perspective of the 460 Mag.


Still no info but,it's a calmer response.Maybe we can get somewhere.



Quote:
You can call yourself anything you want to, expert, now it all, box reader it does not matter to me. I know what the 454 Casull will do and I know what the 460 Mag will do, I took the time to do the work and shot both rounds in the same gun , Oh yea you can't do that, the SRH will not shoot the 460 Mag.



Ooops,maybe not.



Redhawk,if you will step down from that 460 cloud for a few minutes and take a deep breath,kick the dog or whatever you need to do to calm down,maybe we can get to some info that will help myself and others.After you've calmed down,re-read this thread and you'll notice a couple things.

Nowhere have I said that the 454 will outrun the 460.I haven't even said it was dead even with the 460.Somewhere along the line,you have assumed it was said.

I posted factory specs and you claimed BS.When I asked for more info,you flew off the handle and went on a rant about the ammo manu. being liars and the credibility of those that don't own a 460.
The only valid point you have offered with any merit is the case capacity.This is a good point and can't be disputed.If a handloader loads each hotter than blue blazes,then yes,the 460 should pull away from the 454 due to case capacity.
Here's the catch,most shooters don't reload and the ammo manu. are not putting that extra case capacity to use.Neither cartridge is being loaded to it's full potential and the 460 is only giving an extra 50-100 fps in factory loads.
I wish I had the funds to purchase a chrono,ammo and every gun/cartridge combo out there to test but,I don't.You said you have done some testing.GREAT!!!Enlighten us.What numbers did you get?

Redhawk1
July 9, 2006, 08:33 AM
454c, I was never up set, it was just your perception. I just find it amazing how people have and still try to down play the 460 Mags velocity over the 454 Casull. I have had so may discussions with 454 Casull owners and how they think the 460 Mag is just a over rated round. As far as posting all my findings, I did not keep all my data, and I wish I had. I found out what I want to and just continued to shoot the 460 Mag. I sold all three of my 454 Casull's, a Freedom Arms Premier Grade and two of the Super Redhawk's.

I can tell you that I was able to get more powder in the 454 Casull cases because I was using the longer cylinder of the S&W 460 Mag and was able to seat the bullets out further than I could in either of the FA or SRH. But even with that, I was well below 200 to 250 fps difference between the 454 Casull and 460 Mag.

To tell you the truth, I don't utilize all of the speed of the 460 Mag, I went after accuracy over speed after I found out what the 460 Mag was capable of. The fun part was I was able to experiment with different rounds and loads in the same gun. But like I said several posts ago, I don't take anything away from the 454 Casull, it is an awesome round and will works for anything on the North American Continent or any place else.

After rereading all of the thread, here is some of your comments that I had problems with.

"It's kinda funny actually. S&W re-invented the 454,chambered it in a heavier, bulkier revolver and charged more money for it."


"Just looking for verification of the hype that surrounds it"

"neither one stands head and shoulders over the other."

"Oh yes.The "2300 fps" claim to fame"

454c
July 9, 2006, 05:17 PM
Sorry if my wording somehow offended you.All to often I see 460 comments that sound like a hyped-up sales pitch from an advertsement and when I look up the specs for the ammo that myself and others would be shooting,I just don't see the justification.I guess that's going to boil down to a shooters opinion of the 50-100fps that the specs show.Some folks might get great excitement about it but,I'm not one of them.

It's a shame you don't have the results from your tests.It would have been interesting to see.

Blacklabman
July 9, 2006, 07:35 PM
.454c
Can you suggest a scope that will take the pounding of the .454 Casull SRH?
I have used a Holosight for the 629's in hunting. The y ahve worked great for quick pickup in the woods.
Along with hunting, the SRH should also make a fine silhouette revolver.
Would you suggest a variable scope or a red dot?
I'm looking for a scope that can handle the heavy recoil, and do dual duty?
Also, I have not had a chance to do distance shots yet. What would you say the max effective range for this revolver/round is?

Redhawk1
July 9, 2006, 07:41 PM
454c, I wish I would of kept it also. I could of used it in several of my 454 Casull Vs 460 Mag discussions.

Redhawk1
July 9, 2006, 07:59 PM
Blacklabman, I know you did not ask me, but I know the for a fact that the Ultra-dot red-dot will hold up to the 454 Casull, I have one on my 500 and 460 Mags. I use the Match -dots now I also have one of there 1 inch tubes.Also a great scope is the Leupold III 2.5X8, I know it is expensive but in my opinion well worth it. I had a Bushnell trophy 2X6X32 on my Ruger Super Redhawk in 454 Casull and had about 700 to 800 rounds down the tube on it without one problem. :D Hope this helped.

Blacklabman
July 9, 2006, 11:18 PM
Redhawk,
Thanks for the reply.
That gunshop has stated that they will not be able to get a PC 6.5" .460 in until the first of September.
They told me they were backordered. That actually works out well. My name is first of the list, for when the arrive. After just paying the fees for the leases, and buying the SRH, it gives me time to save up keep the expense off the wifes radar, by not using the Debit or Credit Cards. Self Preservation. hehehe

I am going to check on the Leupold scope.
If it holds up to the pouding and provides a clear image when need, then it will be well worth it's price.

454c
July 10, 2006, 05:11 AM
Sorry Blacklabman,I haven't scoped my 454 so I can't help you with that one.My findings from shooting other scoped handguns is I prefer a scope.
A couple pointers to keep in mind.
Don't get crazy with the magnification.Things tend to get pretty shaky on the top end.
Check the eye relief.On rifle scopes,there is usually only an inch or less of difference between makes and models.On handgun scopes there is several inches.This can make or break a comfortable shooting position.
I agree with Redhawk on Leupold being a good place to start.If they don't have what you want,most of the other big names are building handgun scopes that are worth a look.


Quote:
What would you say the max effective range for this revolver/round is?



Weellllll,that's kind of a loaded question with many variables and no definite answer.You mention targets and hunting,which one are you asking about ?

For targets the answer is as far as you and the revolver can go.
For hunting it gets a little more complicated.

remultramag
July 27, 2006, 11:12 AM
Has anyone compaired velocity with a chronograph, for the longest barrel .454 (Ruger 9.5 inch) to the longest 460 (S&W 12 inch)?

I have the Ruger 9.5 inch (.454) and the (460) S&W 8 3/8, I was wondering if the Hor. 200gr is faster than 2200/2250 fps. through the 12 inch barrel?



Regards Brian

farscott
July 29, 2006, 03:21 PM
Has anyone experienced the barrel erosion in the X-frame shooting the .460 S&W? I am curious because the .454 Casull in the FA 83 will cause damage to the forcing cone. FA used to ship the guns with a replaceable forcing cone until they learned that replacing the entire barrel was less cost than the forcing cone. I expect the higher velocities of the .460 coupled with the tolerances of the S&W will cause accelerated forcing cone wear and barrel erosion.

I have not put enough full-power rounds through my FA guns to note any erosion in my guns. I try to keep all of my loads at 1300 fps or lower, and not just to spare the gun. It spares me as well and does a great job on game.

MachIVshooter
July 30, 2006, 02:15 AM
.454c: The .460 will outrun the Casull by about 200 FPS with a given bullet weight when comparing 7.5" Casull's with the 8.375" X-frame.

Redhawk: The extra 10 or so grains of powder only makes for a bigger flash when you start whacking off barrel. This can be just as easily seen when comparing the Ruger Alaskan .454 to a Snubby .44 Mag. The Casull has nearly 10 grains capacity over the .44, yet is barely any more powerful from a 2-1/2" tube. The Casull goes from over 1,900ft/lbs to under 1,300 ft/lbs by dropping 5" of barrel. The .460's loss will be predictably greater.

Bottom line, more powder requires more barrel in which to burn it. The .460 gets it's incredible velocity from high pressures and slower powders (as well as the gain-twist rifling). These big boomers are much more affected by barrel length than a 9mm or .45.

Yes, the .460 will always exceed the Casull. But the shorter the tube, the smaller the margin will be.

There. It's settled!:neener:

Jackal
July 30, 2006, 03:19 PM
Sounds to me like you answered your own question. The 460 fires 454 casull. No brainer.

remultramag
August 1, 2006, 11:15 AM
MachIVshooter,

I enjoyed reading your message.

I contacted Hornady and was told the following;


.460 Hornady 200gr. is 2200fps. with a 8 3/8 inch barrrel
.460 Hornady 200gr. is 2250fps. with a 10 inch barrel
.460 Hornady 200gr. is 2300fps. with a 12 inch barrel

about 25 fps. / per inch (with the .45cal):)

Best Regards

454c
August 1, 2006, 12:40 PM
Thanks for the info MachIVshooter.By any chance do you have info for both cartridges shot out of an X frame ?

Socrates
August 2, 2006, 01:42 PM
I would think the advantage of the 460, 1.6" case would be being able to use 500 grain bullets, at moderate velocities.

S

nothinbutguns
August 5, 2006, 01:31 AM
Realize that you defeat the purpose of the caliber if you purchase the shorter barrel lengths. A longer barrel means better ballistics. Also, in my expeience with my 8" 460, 454 ammo performs fairly well and the 460 ammo is very accurate until the barrel gets hot. But with 45 Colt ammo you will be wasting your time. Accuracy is marginal because the bullet is jumping a long distance from the shell to the forcing cone. And some people believe that if you shoot a steady diet of anything other then 460 ammo, you will start to get an erosion ring in the chambers and later 460 ammo wont extract properly.

jflimbach
August 12, 2006, 05:15 AM
Socrates:

That's a great point. I use the 495gr hardcast loaded to about 1,200 fps for backcountry packing in my 5" .460 here in Montana.

Big enough and fast enough to get the job done with low enough recoil to effectively double action if needed.

John L.

sw460mag
August 12, 2006, 01:41 PM
i am still whating on cabelas to get mt 460 5 inch in ,any day i hope.somebody said the 460 and 500 are just a silly fad (gb) but it dont look like that to me ,

sw460mag
August 15, 2006, 08:47 PM
ok guys lets keep this going / i just got my 460 5 inch today the store only had 2 boxes of hornady (that was all 460mag of anything) so i only shot 1 box when i got home but i think this will be my all time favorite handgun (make that any gun):neener:

Redhawk1
August 15, 2006, 11:16 PM
I have to agree, it is my favorite handgun also...:D

Lichen
February 22, 2007, 11:41 AM
No recent activity on this thread, but here goes...

I actually found this thread while searching for information on the 460 XVR, and it played a part in my decision to buy one. I have several other guns, and have been shooting since I was a kid. Like most men, I like more power. You know, faster cars, stronger trucks, more powerful power tools, guns, etc.

So now I have this 460 XVR, and I bought some Hornady 200gr plastic-tipped bullets, some Colt .45's, and a few different 454 Casull rounds for it, and brought out a new piece of 1/2" mild steel to see what kind of penetrating power we're really talking about with these rounds. Over the years, we've shot with a 7mm, '06, .270, .44 mag, ,22 mag, 9mm pistol, etc, all the normal rounds a homeowner usually has in his arsenal. So I was really interested to see what 'the mighty casull' would do to it. Any guesses?

I took my Blackhawk .44 mag along, too, just for a reference.

The 300gr Casull makes a pretty good gouge in that steel. Of course, the 200gr 460 makes a much deeper, larger one, the Colt .45 doesn't even scratch it; the .44 mag makes a respectable dimple in it, etc. And now the point of this post:

I decided to buy some reloading equipment, as a logical next step, considering a dollar per shot for factory ammo, or more, it seemed the right thing to do. Problem is, I never did this before. Reloading looks pretty simple, but I don't quite think I'm aware of the dangers of loading shots too hot.

All I have been able to reload so far is .45 Colt ammo; the 460 shell won't fit in my shell holder, and the primers I bought are too big for the Casull case. So I decided to see how hot I could load the Colts.

At http://www.reloadammo.com/45cload.htm M. D. Smith says 10 grains of Unique is an ultra-hot load. But when I had measured that out and dumpted it into the case, I saw it was only half-full. So I put another grain, total 11, and went and shot it. Pop. So I took the shell back to my reloading bench, and filled it up to 15 grains, and back out and shot that.

Upshot is, I found I can put 20 grains of Unique in that shell...and then the .45 Colt begins to act more like a Casull round. (Factory)

And I found the shells expanded to fill the load holes in my gun quite tightly. So I backed it off, and instead of loading 20 grains, I dropped it to 17. So now I have dozens of Colt .45 rounds loaded to 17 grains of Unique powder; not, to my mind, as hot as they can get, but way hotter than recommended. I know a lesser gun would possibly be damaged, but we're talking about the S&W 460 Large Frame XVR here, right? Is all I am risking some split cases, shorter case life? Or am I really risking life and limb?

Need some advice from some reloaders if I can get it.

Thanks.

Redhawk1
February 22, 2007, 01:40 PM
Lichen, I suggest you buy some reloading manuals, you are playing with fire what you are doing. There are reasons what there are max loads posted. Just because there is space left in a cartridge, it is not a reason to fill it. You are at great risk of damaging you gun by stretching the cylinder with over pressure load and worse off your own safty.You want to turn a 45 Colt into a 454 Casull, you can't that is why a 454 Casull was made. The X frame is not invincible, you can blow it up as well as other guns.

Buy the proper shell holder for the 460 Mag, it is the same one used for the 338 win mag from RCBS. The 454 Casull uses small rifle primers. The 45 Colt uses large pistol primers and the 460 S&W uses Large Rifle Primers.

Lichen
February 22, 2007, 09:56 PM
Thanks...Obviously I am new to reloading. It would sure be a shame to ruin my new gun by stretching the cylinder. I just picked up your post now, not ten minutes after I loaded a Casull cartridge so hot I had a hard time getting it out of the cylinder. But I put less than 30 grains in it, compressed. Wrong powder, obviously. I have a manual, just dipped into it enough to see specs.

I have a lot to learn about the development of magnum cartridges and tolerance levels etc. I want more power...but I need to learn a few things first.

First, I need to buy the right kind of powder for the Casull.

Redhawk, do you have a powder preference for your 460 XVR?

Redhawk1
February 22, 2007, 11:41 PM
Lichen, I use H 110 for my 460 Mags. Whatever you do, use the loading manual and do not go below or above the load data with H 110. You can get just as much over pressure from not enough powder as you can with to much of the H 110.

I use H 110 in my 454 Casull also.

The most important thing I will stress is, use and don't deviate from you loading manuals.

SnWnMe
February 23, 2007, 01:51 AM
Well now that there is more handloading data for the 460 it is evident that it's quite the barn burner.

Hodgdon has some pretty hairy loads posted.

:eek: 240gr @ 2254 vs 2066 for the 454

:scrutiny: 300gr @ 2067 vs 1746 for the 454

:what: 395gr @ 1796 vs 1309 for the 454

Yikes! I think i want one now!

aspade
February 23, 2007, 03:01 AM
There are reasons for max loads, but with the 45 Colt in particular that reason is weak SAAs designed for blackpowder loads. SAAMI max on the 45 Colt is 14,000 PSI which is lower than any other cartridge out there.

You can't safely turn it into a Casull, but you can turn it into a fairly close approximation of a 44 Mag in a strong gun. (But adding more of a very fast powder is the wrong way to do it.)

ArchAngelCD
February 23, 2007, 03:18 AM
Buy a S&W 460, you can shoot the .460 S&W Magnum, the .454 Casull and .45 LC through it. (as I'm sure someone already said in the past 3 pages)

The Model 460XVR Compensated Hunter looks like a really nice hunting revolver. http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=11101&langId=-1&productId=27972&tabselected=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=15707

454c
February 23, 2007, 03:33 AM
Dipping into the manual, wrong powders, over pressure loads:what:



Lichen, BACK AWAY FROM THE RELOADER !!!!!

What you've done would make most reloaders kill over from heart failure. When I was toying with the idea of reloading, every loader worth a flip said the same thing-" Read the manual front to back and then read it again BEFORE loading the first shell".

Revolver Ocelot
February 23, 2007, 06:00 AM
get the 460, it can fire the 460 ofcourse as well as the 454 and 45 long colt

Lichen
February 23, 2007, 11:05 PM
I now have dies for my .270 win, my Colt and Casull, and dies on the way for the 460 XVR. I'm excited to say the least, and I have taken the above advice to heart and I am reading the manual all the way through. First, the manual deals with all the guys who actually invented various calibers and ammo-making factory machines and so on, people with engineering degrees, machinists and chemists; and I stand humbled.

After I loaded up a Casull round so hot I had a few moments' fear and trepidation when I couldn't extract the shell because it had swollen from the excessive pressure; I decided after that I had better gain a stronger understanding of the principles involved in firearms technologies.

As I said, I don't want to screw up my new 460...it's easily my favorite gun.

So I apologise to all...I was a fool. At least I didn't hurt anyone.

Redhawk1
February 23, 2007, 11:08 PM
No need to apologise, just be careful. :cool:

benelli12
February 23, 2007, 11:45 PM
Redhawk1....454c, Ive enjoyed your disagreements/argument/exchanging of facts...., and I learned a thing or 2, thanks.

Redhawk1
February 24, 2007, 12:04 AM
benelli12, that's what it is all about. Learning from others. I think a good debate is good. Sometimes a lot of good information can come out of it. :D

Lichen
March 5, 2007, 02:29 AM
I don't know the meaning of careful. I am trying to push the limits. There is no room for timidity.

The 454 Casull is a wimp compared with the awesome 460 X-frame, hands down. It can't be loaded nearly as hot; it bounces off steel plate the 460 punches right through.

The debate is over.

454c
March 5, 2007, 02:56 AM
Quote:
***The debate is over.***




In more ways than you realize.

Mmmmm 460
September 10, 2007, 02:41 PM
I've not owned a 454 revolver, but I do attest that this is one sweet shooting piece. I just put it together, so it has no blood on it, but I'll be showing it deer and elk this season; hopefully I don't reach for the sako! :scrutiny:

The 200 grain loads are extremly comfortable to shoot with the compensator, and heavier cor bon loads can be shot without pain when not using a recoil glove. :evil:

http://i17.tinypic.com/66ysx1z.jpg
http://i11.tinypic.com/5xid2di.jpg

MCgunner
September 10, 2007, 03:16 PM
Personally, I'd rather have a Freedom Arms than either the SRH or the X frame. It's a finer built weapon, more precise, stronger all around, and easier to tote. Why would I want DA on a hunting revolver, anyway? DA is great for a snubby .38, but single actions rule in the wilds. JMHO of course. :D

http://www.freedomarms.com/

Mmmmm 460
September 10, 2007, 10:12 PM
The single action break on the model above is excellent. My nicest breaking trigger, and the nicest of most guns I've shot. the DA option is nice for bear protection, though. It's shootable in double action, and accurate if the shooter understands a how to shoot a DA.

357-8-times
September 11, 2007, 05:04 PM
Wrench in the mix:

Did you consider a Dan Wesson .445 SuperMag? Shoots .445 Super Magnum which is in the .454 realm of performance as well as .44mag/spl.

I am trying to find a new DW VH8 .445 to buy, no luck as of yet...

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