Advice sought - Turn Bolt Micro Actions


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Sylvan-Forge
July 5, 2006, 02:49 PM
Might any of you fine rifle-folk share your thoughts?

I'm a relative rifle noob, but I think* I learned some terminology to better describe what I'm after.

I need some help zeroing in on the right micro-sized action for a short-range suppressed carbine build.

Here are some of the design requirements :


High Quality Forged Steel and Machining
Controlled Round Feed
Standing Ejector
.223 Bolt Face
Box Magazine Fed (Will modify to accept AR-15 mags)


I'm assuming most everything will be considered overbuilt for the calibers I may chamber (.22 Reed Express, .221 Fireball, .300 Tokarev, .300 Fireball)
but rugged is paramount.

I will probably mill some 'dirt grooves' ala Steyr Scout.

I'm not really to clear as to the ejector type. If you were looking for the most utterly reliable type, what would it be?
Does CRFeed preclude claw type?

More than 2 lugs is fine if it provides an acute bolt lift angle, but again, rugged first.
Did I mention rugged? :p Smooth is nice too :D At least the potential for it.
I don't mind spending the time getting it slick.

Parts availability is not really a big deal.
It'd be nice to just be able to buy the action seperately, but if I have to get the whole rifle it's gotta range under $650-700.

Oh, and bolt stop/bolt removal .. I don't want the bolt to pop out too easily.


So watcha think?

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Brian Williams
July 5, 2006, 02:53 PM
The Old Mini Mauser, was built by CV Zevasta for Charles Daly, It should be out by Remington soon. Or the CZ mini-bolt Both are good actions and will do what you need.

ArmedBear
July 5, 2006, 02:54 PM
Aren't those rounds just about the last thing you'd want for a short-range suppressed carbine?

Those sound like long-range, high speed rounds, not short-range, quiet rounds.

60 grain subsonic .22LR would be a better choice for short-range and suppressed. Ammo is readily available, and so are good micro bolt actions (CZ). Hell, the Brits even have suppressors on lots of their CZ's.

This sounds like a rather dubious bunch of design criteria, unless you're a hit man.

Sylvan-Forge
July 5, 2006, 03:28 PM
Thanks guys.

ArmedBear,
I'm a hand loader so I can build them subsonic.
For the .22 Reed Express (7.62x25 Tokarev case necked down to .224")
and the std .221 Fireball, I was thinking to throw maybe some 90 grainers subsonic.
I think these will fit as far as length into the (modified) AR-15 mags, along with .300 Tokarev (not sure if this is the accepted name for .308 bullets in Tokarev cases) using maybe 168 grain bullets and .300 Fireball (aka .300 Whisper) using up to 240 grain bullets.

I figure a bottle neck cartridge headspacing on the shoulder will enhance accuracy potential and the superior SD of rifle bullets will give better down range thump and supress better than pistol bullets in the same weights. Plus more reliability and effectiveness for those super-secret hitman contracts of mine.

CB900F
July 5, 2006, 03:29 PM
oo7

I'm with Armed Bear. I'd think you'd be looking at something like the .300 Whisper.

However, to the question at hand: I have a mini-Mauser and would not suggest it for a combat type scenario. The Zastava, Mark X, Daly, and soon Remington, are all Zastava built. The problem is with the very short rear bridge. It doesn't provide enough bolt support for smooth reliable operation in a stressed enviroment.

I haven't used the CZ 527 or the Browning micro-hunter, but am looking forward to seeing CZ release the 527's with LHB supposedly later this year.

900F

Spinner
July 5, 2006, 07:11 PM
My understanding of suppressed centrefire rifles is that because you are limited in velocity (must remain beneath the speed of sound so muzzle velocity is restricted to about 1100 ft/s) then the only way to have any decent energy or to maintain the velocity of the projectile is to use a heavy, streamlined projectile.

Basically, if you're going to build a suppressed centrefire rifle, make it a calibre that you can use heavy projectiles in. I'd suggest a suppressed 22LR would be just as effective and a darn sight cheaper than a suppressed .223 for instance.

Because of the relative abundance of bubba'd Enfields and the total lack of regulation on suppressors in this country I've been seriously thinking about a suppressed .303 British chucking 180 grain projectiles out at 1100 ft/s. The trajectory would be very similar to a subsonic .22LR so its never going to be a long range rig, but it could very well be quite an effective tool for eradicating mobs of marauding goats at ranges less than 125 yards.

Spinner

Cosmoline
July 5, 2006, 07:46 PM
You can make anything subsonic, but the rounds you list are designed to go in the opposite direction. They will give you a lot of trouble if you bring the charge way down, and their performance will be horrible. For a subsonic mini-mauser action you're much better off going with a heavy loaded 7.62x39. I know some guys who load them with 180 or 200 grain Mosin-Nagant rounds with good results. I believe similar loads with the 54R itself are used in Finland for urban hunting and animal control, but over there they allow silencers for hunting.

Vern Humphrey
July 5, 2006, 09:33 PM
Does CRFeed preclude claw type?

CRF is claw type.

Sylvan-Forge
July 6, 2006, 11:46 AM
Thank you all for the helpful responses.

OK, so far ..

CZ 527 - check
30 Caliber Heavies - check
CRF is Claw Type - check

I have two more questions ..
Anyone know if the CZ 527 uses the big honking claw that shows up on older WWII arms, or is it more like a Sako claw?

Are there any more actions I should be looking at? (Price not a concern)

mrmeval
July 6, 2006, 12:50 PM
http://world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm
They made a quiet ammo and some subsonic ones. Further on you run into the extremely long bullets for underwater use.

http://www.cz-usa.com/products_smallbore_rifles.php?m=1
Beautiful guns.

DWARREN123
July 6, 2006, 04:52 PM
I think you will have problems with trying to use AR mags in most anything suggested. If it has to use AR mags go with a AR type platform.

JesseL
July 6, 2006, 05:09 PM
I keep thinking it would be a good idea to get in on the pre-order of these (http://www.montanarifleman.com/miniaction.htm). Basically an improved pre-64 model 70 style mini-action for $350.

Sylvan-Forge
July 7, 2006, 02:28 AM
mrmeval,
Thanks for the links.
Those self contained piston cartridges are pretty darn cool.
Seems like during the coldwar, the project advisors of both countries were also spy-novel and movie fans, hehe :rolleyes:

Those CZs are nice indeed.
I especially like the Bavarian style stock shown on the Lux.
From the pics it looks like quality bluing.

I sent an email off to CZ around lunchtime and had a response within a couple hours. I asked about, and they confirmed, that they will sell the action and stock seperately. No barrel blanks though.
Oh, and they informed me that the ejector was mauser style, whatever mauser style is. Hopefully standing (fixed).


DWARREN123,
Thanks for the heads-up.
Would my problem be that they will require too much hogging-out of the reciever?
Maybe I'll have to modify a single-stack mag or cobble something together to get the 10+ rounds I was looking for..


JesseL,
Thanks for that link.
I'm kinda hung up on forged bits, but if I ever start selling 'em one day, those might make for a fine entry model.

Hmm. CZ said that their recievers are forged but the bolt is cast..I wonder if they mean the handle or the whole bolt.. I'll email 'em again tommorrow.



All in all,
I'm stuck on the idea of the .300 Tokarev wild-cat. My only concern is neck tension. Well, a little concerned about the shallow neck angle as well. I like that it would be a little less work than case-forming .300 Whisper.
Elegantly simple. Hopefully.

Project insired by the Delisle carbine and some old pic of paratrooper's M1 carbine I once saw.
Ultimately, I envision medium-dark stain on a pistol-grip style hardwood stock with a blued collapseable buttstock and mounting/guide hardware.
A finely machined and blued action.
10rd Magazines in blue.
A ~10" hammer-forged heavy contour barrel, floating & blued. Maybe I can use a CZ .308 varmint barrel and lop off the chamber and ream a new one, albeit a somewhat diminished outside diameter.
A lightweight Steel wrapped and blued can with maybe some unobtanium inards. Matching the barrel diameter.
Some kind of adjustable night sights. Saw some neat looking lever-carbine style in the midway catalog.
And a set of blued sling swivels.

If everything works out on the retro version, I'd like to do a modernized (tacticool) version with a composite stock, maybe try and design some kind of beddingless system of attachment, a lighter can, a reflex sight and sight rail, and finished in Birdsong's Green-T or Black-T.

Gotta start socking away the loot :)

rangerruck
July 7, 2006, 03:22 AM
why not a cz in 22 hornet? I have two cz's and they are very nice. very stiff rigid claw, it is bigger than you would normally see, but i wouldn't call it huge!

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