Beretta Px4 Questions.


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bg226
July 5, 2006, 10:43 PM
I just have a few questions about the Beretta Px4:

1. Why a rotating barrel system?

2. Is the rotating barrel system more prone to breakage than the Browning system?

3. I read that a portion of the feed ramp is polymer and it wears down over time. Is it designed to do that?

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JohnKSa
July 5, 2006, 11:58 PM
Why a rotating barrel system? The rotating barrel system allows the barrel to recoil straight back rather than tilting. Some say that this reduces muzzle flip.
It means that there doesn't have to be as large an opening in the front of the slide since the barrel is only going back and forth instead of tilting as well--that should contribute to good accuracy.

It also tends to be a bit more robust over time (and more flexible in terms of the calibers that can be handled) compared to the locking block arrangement used in other Beretta pistols.

Is the rotating barrel system more prone to breakage than the Browning system?I don't think there's any reason that one general design should be more or lest durable than the other. I don't know if the specific implementation of the PX4 has any durability issues--haven't heard of any.I read that a portion of the feed ramp is polymer and it wears down over time. Is it designed to do that?There is a good-sized metal insert in the polymer feedramp that takes the direct impact. The very top of the feedramp is polymer and it will show some wear over time, but the wear can't progress very far due to the metal insert.

I don't know if it was designed to wear, or if that was considered an insignificant effect. I was worried about feedramp wear until I handled a PX4 and got a good look at the metal insert.

lunde
July 6, 2006, 12:03 AM
Outstanding pistol. The best thing to do to it is to change the controls to slim versions. Here are before/after photos of m first Px4 Storm:

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/px4-right-flat.jpg

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/px4-g-slim-right-flat.jpg

Longbow
July 6, 2006, 12:58 AM
Can anyone post a pic of the feed ramp? TIA.

BusMaster007
July 6, 2006, 02:11 AM
Nice pix. Excellent illustration of the point.

I'm holding out for the .45 in this one.
That's gotta be one helluva gun in .45 !:evil:

BusMaster007
July 6, 2006, 02:12 AM
Did I mention...?

Beretta + .45 = HELLUVA GUN !!! ;)

SouthpawShootr
July 6, 2006, 08:19 PM
Outstanding pistol. The best thing to do to it is to change the controls to slim versions.

Gosh! I never realized the shelf on the safety/decocker were that big. Looks like it's going to fly away. :what:

For the moment, I'm happy with mine they way it is.

JohnKSa
July 6, 2006, 08:40 PM
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/age_ranger/DSC05941.jpg
Not a great pic, but you can see the outline of the metal insert in the feedramp. This one has a good bit of wear on the polymer lip, but you can see it's progressed about as far as it can due to the metal insert.

Mine (or my wife's, I should say :( ) doesn't show ANYTHING like that kind of wear. In fact, you can see some brass skid marks on the metal insert but no wear at all on the polymer lip. BTW, the fellow who posted this picture sent it to Beretta and was told that the wear was perfectly normal.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/age_ranger/DSC05941.jpg

Here's a better pic. This one has 1640 rounds of FMJ through it according to the person who posted it with no apparent wear to the polymer lip. It may be that some bullet profiles cause more wear than others.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b121/Cougarkeeper/602_0224a.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b121/Cougarkeeper/602_0224a.jpg

Navy87Guy
July 6, 2006, 08:58 PM
The rotating barrel system was used with great success in the Beretta Cougar pistols. I think you'll find the owners have been very happy with it.

Jim

MachIVshooter
July 6, 2006, 11:03 PM
2. Is the rotating barrel system more prone to breakage than the Browning system?

Which one?

Beretta's rotating system has proved pretty solid over the years in the cougar series. The falling block system in the 92/96 have failed but also tend to be sufficient for the most part (I have only personally seen one broken block).

Honestly, the barrel lock up is seldom the failure pount on most auto's. This is good, because a failure there could mean the shooter is wearing the slide.

Longbow
July 6, 2006, 11:40 PM
Thanks JohnKSa,
It looks like the feed ramp issue is no biggy. Its probably the HP's that gives it more wear. No biggy as long as it doesn't affect reliability.

Sgt Stevo
July 7, 2006, 12:05 AM
I like mine. I got it in .40 I have not shot it yet. Tommorrrow night at the club.

boomstik45
July 7, 2006, 01:22 AM
I am anxious to hear a detailed report on one of these in .40. Because I knew so little about the PX4, I ended up buying a slightly used Springfield XD .40 instead. I had one before and wished I hadn't sold it, so I bought another one. Perhaps I should have bought the PX4 instead, but the XD is a good pistol. I've also had the Cougar 8045, so I'm familiar with the rotating barrel system. It seems to be improved in the PX4, but I'm not completely certain of that. I don't think I could resist one in .45 acp....

JohnKSa
July 7, 2006, 01:25 AM
It seems to be improved in the PX4...What do you mean? I wasn't aware of any problems with the Cougar. :confused:

Sgt Stevo
July 7, 2006, 12:48 PM
The mod Swen and I will ring it out tonight and will let ya know tommorrow. he shoots better than me, so I will check the groups with him. Have agreat weekend, Stevo....

boomstik45
July 9, 2006, 12:47 AM
JohnKsa, what I meant was the takedown process, sorry. I had a Cougar and the first time I disassembled it, I did so like I would any other pistol. Naturally, the guid rod and block that connects with the barrel fell right to the ground. When I got my hands on a PX4, that didn't happen. There are only slight differences it seems, but the assembly seems to fit better and stays in place when the slide is removed from the frame. Although still not as dirt simple as the glock, it would seem to me that this would improve matters as far as being handled by law enforcement individuals. Unlike myself (and others), many of us law enforcement types are not really "gun guys" and therefore have limited knowledge, limited skills, etc. Same with the military, by and large. Glocks are obviously easier to train and/or transition whole departments on, so the PX4 still has a uphill battle in that regard. While I enjoyed the Cougar, the PX4 seems a little more user friendly for the average person, I guess is what I'm trying to say. I for one have plenty of interest in it. How do you feel it compares to the competition? I am especially curious as to what you think of it compared to the Smith and Wesson M&P, which I've also been looking at lately. I like my Springfield XD .40 and believe the XD to be a very solid gun, but these other two intrigue me. I know what to expect from the Glock, having handled, shot, and disassembled(completely) most of the models, even the 10mm versions.

p.s. I realize I didn't use the proper wording when describing the "improvement" of the Cougar system. Perhaps advancement is the better word.

boomstik45
July 9, 2006, 12:50 AM
Fact is, other than lack of sales, I am not sure what went wrong with the Beretta Cougar. Even Tom Clancy liked it, LOL! I hope this doesn't happen to the PX4, it's a very nice gun from the looks of it.

Cousin Mike
July 9, 2006, 01:17 AM
Fact is, other than lack of sales, I am not sure what went wrong with the Beretta Cougar. Even Tom Clancy liked it, LOL!

I like mine just fine. :D The model I own is kinda boring, though. Found out the hard way I don't like DAO pistols. The reason I decided to chime in here is because, as has been mentioned, the Cougar has a rotating barrel. The recoil is actually mild to me, but fun for a 9mm. Snappy would be a good word. It seems to have a tad more kick than an XD-9. I'm not sure that the rotating barrel reduces felt recoil. It is, on the other hand, amazingly accurate, so I would have to agree that it must contribute to accuracy. What I have noticed (especially when shooting one handed), it seems to push the gun to the right instead of just upwards when firing. Kind of fun! If mine were one of the DA/SA types, it might be my favorite pistol.

I also want a PX4... And a CX4 Storm :neener: but that's another thread.

JohnKSa
July 9, 2006, 01:26 AM
How do you feel it compares to the competition?It's not quite as accurate as a tight 92FS, but it will do 3" five shot groups @ 25yards with decent ammo--probably better, but that's about my limit these days.

Trigger was decent and has improved noticeably over the course of some 300 rounds.

The field strip is a bit more complicated than a standard service pistol due to the extra piece (block) that is involved. It's not harder, you just have to juggle an extra part. In addition, when putting the slide assembly back onto the frame, it's sometimes necessary to re-align the block to get it to slide on.

The mags were very hard to load past about 10 rounds or so (17 rounders).

Other than those points, I think they're as good or better than anything else on the market in the general service pistol category.

mete
July 9, 2006, 04:20 AM
There have been many rotating barrel systems .They were introduced about 100 years ago !!

Birukun
July 10, 2006, 01:54 AM
Not to get sidetracked, but....

I own a Beretta Cougar .40S&W and I love it. No malfunctions, easy to clean, nice recoil, and it just looks good. I looked real hard at the PX4 and was about to get one, until I attended a 4 day hangun course with my Cougar.

If you want a nice looking gun, that is accurate, buy a PX4. (I am assuming that the PX4 is a polymer version of the Cougar, so everything I like about the Cougar applies to the PX4.)

If you need a duty gun, or a carry gun, I learned on the range (thank goodness it was there and not on the street) that the Cougar was not for me other than range time. (and to maintain proficiency with a Beretta with the decocker configuration, I am a Navy Reservist and the Navy uses the M9)

A few reasons:
Decocker/safety - the levers not only get in the way, but on more than one occasion I either forgot to holster with safety off or I hit the lever on the way out. This meant pulling the trigger and no bang. I also chewed my middle and index fingers up on the levers while doing malfunction drills that require the slide to be actuated by hand.
DA/SA - even when I came out, pointed in, and fired, the first pull (DA) on the Cougar is long and hard. The next shot is SA, and easy as pie. I know there are different trigger options, but in the great state of Kommifornia, the DAO or 'Continous' options may not be approved. (I would no doubt have to special order anyhow.)
Ejection port - the ejection port on the Cougar and PX4 is to the right. Performing a chamber check forces you to tilt the gun to look in. Not necessarily a safety issue, just an annoyance.

Do I love shooting my Cougar, and can I shoot it well? Yes.
Can I trust that it will shoot everytime I pull the trigger? Not with the decocker/safety.

So I eventually settled on the S&W M&P in .40S&W, it has a similar feel and with the trigger system, large ejection port with chamber loaded indicator, accessory rail, adjustable rear sights I am all set. Remarkably, the M&P with a 4.25" barrel is about 1/8" longer than my Cougar with the 3.6" barrel. Both fit in my hands well. (I could not get used to the Glock grip, they were never an option for me)

Now if I can get over the magazine diisconnect safety on the M&P that my Beretta does not have.....

YMMV, the othe trigger options may be suitable for your use....
Bill in SD

boomstik45
July 10, 2006, 02:26 AM
John, thankyou for your imput. The field strip and reassembly is not a problem for me, I've already done it a few times and I used to own a Cougar 8045. I am still considering getting one. I am still not sure about the Smith and Wesson M&P due to some internal parts questions and what not. Perhaps best to let that one ride for a while and see how it goes. But the Beretta seems to be ready to go right out of the box. Have you any experience with the Springfield XD?

Sgt Stevo
July 10, 2006, 03:51 AM
I shot my px-4 friday and today. It is accurate, it fired several different types of ammo and it is easy to shoot.

Its as good as my Glocks but not as accurate as my sig 226. I shoot my Glock-34 better. But only because I am used to it and have put 7,000 rounds through it.

The px-4 is as good as any box stock gun out there.

Navy87Guy
July 10, 2006, 09:13 AM
Decocker/safety - the levers not only get in the way, but on more than one occasion I either forgot to holster with safety off or I hit the lever on the way out. This meant pulling the trigger and no bang. I also chewed my middle and index fingers up on the levers while doing malfunction drills that require the slide to be actuated by hand.

It takes about 15 minutes to convert the PX4 to a decocker-only (G-model) configuration. That eliminates any issues with the safety being inadvertently activated. You can either replace the controls with slim controls (which are a big improvement) or just modify the existing ones. Don't let that be a reason not to choose a PX4.

Jim

Birukun
July 10, 2006, 02:22 PM
I have to give Beretta credit for trying to resolve the issues with the slimmer levers. They have been pretty progressive with their designs. (9000?)

While I appreciate the alternatives, for the other reasons stated I (personally) cannot use a PX4 for a carry gun. I really came to appreciate the KISS theory under simulated pressure at the range. Let's assume I modded it to be a 'G'. I still have the heavy DA pull first and the ejection port is not any larger. Both affect my ability to fight, as proven on the range. Others may not have the same problem.

If I get activated and sent to the sandbox I will just have to work with what I am issued.

I urge everyone with a PX4 to go and get the CX4, especially if you have a PX4 already. They share magazines and just kind of go together.

Bill in SD

JohnKSa
July 10, 2006, 09:40 PM
It takes about 15 minutes to convert the PX4 to a decocker-only (G-model) configuration.It is also available in the G configuration with no modification required--and with the standard decock levers in place. I might have made it out of the store without it if it hadn't been a "G". :(

boomstik45
July 11, 2006, 01:02 AM
I KNOW I probably shouldn't do this, but I am SO tempted to let my Springfield XD go in trade for the PX4 in .40. SGT Stevo, how's the controllability on that thing? Is it really a nice shooter? I realize it might be a little bit snappier than a glock or Springfield XD. Of course, if I was worried about recoild very much, I wouldn't shoot 10mm, .44 magnum or anything like that. But I do like a controllable carry gun for rapid fire and quick target re-acquisition. I dig the looks and finish as well as the slick functioning on this gun, though. And I've missed the Cougar I had sooo much. I only hope there's night sights available for it. By the way, where do you get the slimmer safety/decocker parts for it?


Kinda hard to beat the 226, ain't it Stevo?

SAG0282
July 11, 2006, 02:48 AM
You really won't regret getting a PX4.......and this from a guy that generally has a relatively low opinion of Beretta.

I realize it might be a little bit snappier than a glock or Springfield XD.

I don't think it's perceptibly snappier then either.....I actually got my NIB PX4 by trading a 9mm GLOCK for it.

Kinda hard to beat the 226, ain't it

IMVHO nothing yet made beats the P226 for combat/defense.

Sgt Stevo
July 11, 2006, 10:24 AM
I think the recoil is nothing to worry about. It is about the same as Glock22. It is easy to shoot.

You should keep the xd, save some money and buy the PX4. then you will have two. and not be raped by a gun dealer on the xd.

boomstik45
July 12, 2006, 12:43 AM
I hear that. Although the dealer I bought the XD from is a pretty good aquaintance and would make it worth my while. He's never screwed me. I may keep the XD anyway. He only ordered on PX4, it's in .40, and it's been sitting there for a couple of months at least. It's the F version if I remember correctly, and comes with all three backstraps, 3 14 rd. mags, and the cleaning kit, etc. He marked it down to about $425. It originally was going for $459 (he ordered it when they were one sale, now Davidson's has them for about $527 BEFORE tax and shipping). I think I'm gonna have to dive in on this one. Thanks for the advice, fellas.

JohnKSa
July 12, 2006, 02:12 AM
I realize it might be a little bit snappier than a glock or Springfield XD.Can't comment on the XD, but my wife says my Glock 17 hurts her hand but loves shooting her PX4. I don't think you need to worry about recoil. ;)

boomstik45
August 4, 2006, 01:10 AM
OOps, Px4 got sold before I got there. Traded my XD .40 in on a new XD .45 acp 4" version. Wow, this thing feels good. Can't wait to get it to the range. If it proves nearly as reliable as my old glock 21, I'll be VERY happy.

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