Question: Bubba-ing an SKS.


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arthurcw
July 5, 2006, 11:49 PM
newbie to rifles and especially this category of rifles so please excuse the possible duurr-ness of this question.

I saw this in another thread and decided not to hijack it.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=208888

I have a Yugo 59/66A1 that I have hacked around in true Bubba fashion.

I cut the grenade launcher and threads off, removed the GL sight, the bayo and bayo lug, the night sights (which were burned out anyway), re-crowned and re-blued the muzzle and did it all for essentially nothing. Some of the stuff I removed was of course just to keep it 922(r) legal.

My Situation be: I've been thinking about an SKS for a truck (trunk in my case) gun. But here's the kicker; I have pretty short arms and would need to cut the stock down to shoulder it properly. Soooo... that would lead me into the Wonderful world of Rules and Regs I barely can comprehend we even have let alone understand. I see in the quote above that you can do some mods to the gun and the poster mentions keeping it 922(r) legal.

So my questions be: What would I have to remove from / add to an SKS to keep it legal if I cut the stock down? CAN I EVEN do this? Is it even worth it? I've read some posts here and the lawyer speak made my head spin.

If I have to add/remove (read spend) too much, then my whole reason for wanting it as a trunk gun goes out the window and I'll look elsewhere. I also don't want to run afoul of the ATFers.

Thanks for any help you can give. I'm sure this has been asked an answered before, but I didn't see too much in regard to actually chopping the stock.

Oh... and collectors, don't worry. I'll find one that's furniture is already beat up pretty bad and looks well loved already. I won't "bubba" a nice one.

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DnPRK
July 5, 2006, 11:54 PM
Choate Machine & Tool makes a folding SKS stock that would be ideal for a trunk gun. I don't know if the length of pull would be too long though.

Hkmp5sd
July 6, 2006, 12:16 AM
Choate Machine & Tool makes a folding SKS stock that would be ideal for a trunk gun. I don't know if the length of pull would be too long though.

Which puts you in direct violation of 922(r) without making other changes to bring the gun back into legality.


What would I have to remove from / add to an SKS to keep it legal if I cut the stock down? CAN I EVEN do this? Is it even worth it? I've read some posts here and the lawyer speak made my head spin.


Nothing, as long as you keep overall length greater than 26 inches. Simply shortening the stock does not put you in violation of 922(r).

grimjaw
July 6, 2006, 12:23 AM
You might find this information helpful. There's other useful threads on that forum as well (SKSBoards.com)

http://www.sksboards.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1632

jmm

ps. Personally, the only SKS I would 'bubba' is a previously factory modified version. There was at least one version sold with a synthetic stock (K-Sports), and replacing it with another synthetic stock doesn't put me in violation. Folding stocks I don't know about, but I have no interest in putting an SKS in one.

sctman800
July 6, 2006, 04:03 AM
Some of the stuff I removed was of course just to keep it 922(r) legal.


I have to question this. My stock 59/66 Yugo has the bayonet, gernade launcher with g/l sights and night sights and is legal as a Curio & Relic. If it was to be altered it would no longer be C&R eligible, then it would have to conform to 922(r). That is where it must have no more than 10 imported parts. I would also suggest the SKS boards web site for more information about the specific parts needed to be changed. If you do go that route check out Tapco, they make pretty much everything you need to change it over and stay legal. Jim.

railroader
July 6, 2006, 07:39 AM
From my understanding if you take a curio and relic rifle and remove parts you don't necessarily have to go the 10 parts route. The rifle has to have the "evil features" like grenade launcher and bayonet removed but if it is importable as a sporting arm it should be ok. I have seen letters from the BATF on the sks forum that ok'd taking a yugo 59/66, remove the launcher, bayo and grenade sights then replacing them with a silver soldered muzzle break, dragunov stock and scope without going the 10 parts route. I think that is how saiga rifles come in without changing parts out. They have no evil features such as pistol grips, they are a "sporting rifle" even though they are basicly politicaly correct ak. Mark

dfaugh
July 6, 2006, 07:45 AM
Like sctman800 said, in order to legally modify a Yugo, and (other) SKSs you have to play the "# of imported parts game". This is ESPECIALLY true of the Yugo because of it C&R status. ANY modifications may void that status.

Thes laws regarding what can and can't be done to various models can be confusing, and you'll sometimes hear contradictory info.

I want to do one up, similar to what you want (but on a beater gun, I already have an un-issued Yugo and an SKS-M). and the FIRST thing I'll do is get it into compliance for the "10 parts" game. Then I (or you) can do pretty much whatever you want. (check state laws too, though, folding stock may be a non-no.)

Chopping the stock is not a problem, in itself. But, since most SKSs were made to guys of all statures (like alot of military weapons). they're already pretty short to start with. I'm an average sized guy, but with extra long arms. However, I've always preferred stocks that "should be" about 1" too short for me. And the stock on my Yugo feels short even then. I'd try it before I got to cutting.

Technosavant
July 6, 2006, 08:48 AM
There are two different sets of laws you must conform to: the C&R regs and the 922r regs.

You might not even need to change anything- the SKS typically has a fairly short length of pull as-is.

If you do saw off some stock, you need to deal with the C&R rules- remove the grenade launcher (and put on a muzzle brake or similar), bayonet, and night sights.

If you keep the stock 10 round fixed magazine, you can stop there. You only need to worry about 922r if you go the removable magazine route.

Specific SKS related information can be found here:
http://www.sksboards.com/forum/

Newton
July 6, 2006, 10:46 AM
There are two different sets of laws you must conform to: the C&R regs and the 922r regs.

You might not even need to change anything- the SKS typically has a fairly short length of pull as-is.

If you do saw off some stock, you need to deal with the C&R rules- remove the grenade launcher (and put on a muzzle brake or similar), bayonet, and night sights.

If you keep the stock 10 round fixed magazine, you can stop there. You only need to worry about 922r if you go the removable magazine route.

Specific SKS related information can be found here:
http://www.sksboards.com/forum/


+1

railroader
July 6, 2006, 07:24 PM
From the sks forum about legally altering sks's including c&r. http://www.victorinc.com/SKS-FAQ.html#_Toc138675122

What modifications can I do to my imported fixed-magazine SKS Carbine without violating Title 18 USC ß 922(r)?

As long as your SKS Carbine contains more than ten imported parts, the answer is: ďNot very muchĒ. Some guidance can be gleaned from a letter to the NRA from ATF Technology Branch, printed in the NRA magazine, American Rifleman May, 1994. It specifically mentions the following the following modifications of an standard SKS Carbine would not be violations of Title 18 USC ß 922(r):

1. Replace the existing stock and handguard with a non-folding wooden or synthetic stock having either a Monte Carlo or thumbhole design. [See the discussion of pistol grips and thumbhole stocks.]

2. Attach a muzzle mounted recoil compensator, provided that the device is not also designed as a flash suppressor.

3. Replace the existing 10 round magazine with a fixed 5 round magazine or install a block in the well of the 10 round fixed magazine to limit its capacity to 5 rounds.

4. Replace the existing receiver cover with a cover having a telescopic sight based and/or rings.





5. Replace the front and/or rear sight or install an ambidextrous safety.

The full text of this letter can be found in an older SKS FAQ, which can be found on William Bardwellís web site. The letter is dated, so it does not address Yugoslavian Type 59/66 that are imported with bayonets, night sites, and grenade launchers. It is reasonable to assume that all three of these features must be removed if these rifles are modified out of their C&R status. The letter also mentions detachable magazines (see the LCMM discussion) and fixed large capacity magazines (see the 20-round magazine discussion), but these modifications are no longer allowed.

Hkmp5sd
July 6, 2006, 07:41 PM
If you keep the stock 10 round fixed magazine, you can stop there. You only need to worry about 922r if you go the removable magazine route.


Not true as railroader's post details.

A good rule of thumb...if you want to make changes to your SKS, do the parts count thing first. It is simple and cheap. Then you can do anything you want to your SKS without worrying about C&R or 922(r).

arthurcw
July 7, 2006, 11:31 AM
Thanks for all the info. Sounds like I may be better off just hitting the pawn shops and looking for a beat up old level gun or shotty. I think I'd pretty much have to start playing the parts game, maybe, just to be safe.

And now that I think about it even if the stock does fit me I have to remove the bayo to stay complaint with Texas Law. I don't think they would be happy with the "blade longer than 5.5 inches on or about their person".

Sounds like it was a nice idea that isn't worth the effort for a trunk gun. Maybe when I have some more disposable income I may do it for the sheer principle of the thing.

Maybe it's just my misunderstanding of English but I guess there is just some nuance about, "shall not be infringed," that I don't understand.

ball3006
July 7, 2006, 12:25 PM
to shoot an SKS, then you must be under 5 foot tall. If anyone can't carry an SKS because it is too heavy for them, then they should seriously consider joining a gym. Just about every pawn shop I go to has an SKS just like the one you want to hack up. Don't mean to rag, but I am a C&R guy........chris3

arthurcw
July 7, 2006, 01:23 PM
just over 5ft (5'4") with pretty short arms. Sucks.

No rag taken. I'm not much into destroying old guns myself. I'm not a C&R person, but I have a hard time working over an old gun that has seen more history than me.

Case in point. My Father in Law left us an old 870 turkey gun. My wife wants a HD shot gun and we could easily and cheaply convert it with a new barrel. But I can't do it. I like the gun in that configuration cause it Screams "FRED'S GUN" and I just can't do it.

You are correct in the condition of an SKS I'd be looking for. If I was gonna get all Bubba on it, it would pretty much have to be of no C&R use. I would just have been putting a gun back into service at that point.

Oh... and I have made a few people cry when I tell them I have Win Mod. 94 that I had to have the stock cut down on to fit me. When the tears well up I tell them, "It's OK! really. It's a second stock. The original is safely tucked away and can be reattached." I hope to have normal sized kids one day and I could not permanently alter the gun.

Some advice... Short Guys, marry tall.

Technosavant
July 7, 2006, 03:07 PM
A good rule of thumb...if you want to make changes to your SKS, do the parts count thing first. It is simple and cheap. Then you can do anything you want to your SKS without worrying about C&R or 922(r).

Probably true, but I have been criticized for saying the same thing. It looks like 922r may not apply to fixed magazine rifles without the nasty features, but on the other hand, it just might. There's an awful lot of ambiguity here, and the ATF isn't remotely interested in dispelling any of it.

Newton
July 7, 2006, 03:55 PM
As the SKS has 9 parts that cannot be replaced with available US components, including 5 in the trigger group alone, playing the 10 or less game is difficult.

A lot of the guns out there right now are Yugo 59/66A1s with the GL, threaded barrel, bayo, bayo lug, and night sights.

Rule #1 should be that you don't want to fit a detachable magazine, this seems to be a potential problem area in its own right.

If you then decide to make the modifications that a lot of owners opt for with this rifle, namely the removal of the GL launcher and/or threaded portion of the barrel, then you ALSO need to do the following:

Remove night sights
Remove bayo
Remove bayo lug
Silver solder a new muzzle brake on (if you didn't cut the threads off)

This should make the gun both 925(d) and 922(r) compliant, and the link http://www.victorinc.com/SKS-FAQ.html#_Toc138675122 provides more details on this.

BUT - ATF field officers tend to be of the opinion that making any mods to an imported rifle is illegal - I have had at least one tell me that as a known fact. Although I do not believe this opinion to be correct, it is probably best to get permission in writing from the BATF, which is a lot of trouble to go to for a $150 surplus rifle.

To date there is no known case of any prosecution under 922(r), and if you:

a) don't engage in an illegal activity
b) remember to remove all the evil features
c) don't mess with the magazine

You should have essentially zero risk of having any problems - but that's just my opinion, and there are no absolutes in life.

Technosavant
July 7, 2006, 04:31 PM
To date there is no known case of any prosecution under 922(r), and if you:

a) don't engage in an illegal activity
b) remember to remove all the evil features
c) don't mess with the magazine

You should have essentially zero risk of having any problems - but that's just my opinion, and there are no absolutes in life.

I think consensus is that 922r and similar laws will only be applied if you get busted for something else, and they decide to pile up the charges against you. They won't bust down your door to check your guns, and they won't look at them at the range, but if used in a crime, expect to see a charges brought (if used in self-defense, maybe an overzealous prosecutor might do so).

As things stand right now, there is precious little danger here. However, since government agencies are notorious for periodically having bugs rectally inserted, it is best to comply with all laws as much as humanly possible.

arthurcw
July 7, 2006, 06:26 PM
Ok... so it seams that for the purposes of a cheap trunk gun, this may not be a great Idea since Iím gonna have to do SOMETHING to it whether for my own use of the make it compliant with state laws. So I guess I need to go pawn shop diving soon for a beat up warrior.

But seeing as this is hairier than a hippy chicís armpit, Iím temped to do it just on bloody principle!

So If I have read all this correctly (which is doubtful because I am sick as a dog), then I have 2 options to be absolutely safe in a project of this nature.

1) Buy and SKS and enjoy it as God and Sergei Simonov intended.

OR

2) Make dang sure that I meet the 10 or less rule.

One last question. Something that left me a little fuzzy was; IF I meet the "10 or less rule" then I could have all the evil features on it I want? :confused: I only ask this because of the GL and the bayonet lug. Iíd like to not have to silver soldier a replacement part or remove the threads. It would also be kinda neat to leave the bayo on from time to time.

Thanks again for all the great info.

Technosavant
July 7, 2006, 07:18 PM
I believe that if you go changing anything, you need to remove ALL the evil features (GL+bayonet+night sights).

That $150 plinking carbine rapidly begins to consume time and treasure in a massive way. I didn't say it in this thread, but I have in others: count the price of the parts (and your time, remember to include 3+ hours to de-cosmo the thing), and compare against the price of a Romanian AK. I am betting that you'll find the RomAK comparable in price (have seen them for $300ish), free of the legal issues (depending on your state), will take high-cap magazines without a hitch, and even has the optics rail.

For a pure truck gun, a shooter grade SKS in it's original config would work great- shoot to minute of BG out to 100ish yards (if you shoot somebody at that range, though, expect to do a great amount of explaining), and if it would get stolen or otherwise toasted, you would only be out $100- your cell phone is worth more than that. And use the extra cash you save for a RomAK for the home. :D

smince
July 7, 2006, 07:51 PM
Just so you know, changing the barrel on the 870 wouldn't be a permanent mod. They are easily switched back and forth.

arthurcw
July 7, 2006, 07:59 PM
Techno.,

Well... Even if the Stock fits me (I will check that at the next gun show. I admit, I just assumed it would not fit cause Nothing does), I still may run into an issue with Texas knife laws having it as a trunk gun.

That Bayo would be (I think) considered "on or about my person" if itís in the car. Again... willing (hoping) to be wrong on this point. But if I remember correctly, bayonets are specifically mentioned as a "no no" in Texas Laws.

I was only thinking of altering it as a plinker cause the laws are really ticking me off. Whenever someone tries to make something difficult for me, you can bet I'm gonna try it anyway. You are correct in that it is not worth (monetarily) my time and effort with much better options out there. But galled I am none the less. Again, not be you, but by [CENSORED] useless rules and regs.

My wife will probably talk me out of the project anyway. However, I think an SKS just went on my WANT LIST simply because of its EVIL features.

If I tie a Skull and Cross bones to the Bayo, Does that Void the C&R status????

arthurcw
July 7, 2006, 08:11 PM
smince,

I know, But I really do get a great bit of satisfaction in seeing that gun, chipped wood and all, in its current configuration. It's got a lot of history.

Just to give you an Idea of the type of guy he was... when I got the gun, I took it apart and cleaned it from stem to stern. He suffered a stroke sometime before his death and had not used the gun. I swear that thing had more crap in it than a Liberal's Campaign Speech.

Anyway, I get to the magazine and find a whittled piece of pine branch that he used as a magazine plug. No sense spending $2 on a cheap A Wal-Mart plug. Just get out the knife and whamo. He peeled the bark, smoothed it down... A real nice job. He wouldn't spend the $2 bucks, but dang it, if he was doing it himself, he wasn't gonna half A it.

The gun makes me smile.

smince
July 7, 2006, 08:21 PM
I REALLY do understand.:)

Technosavant
July 8, 2006, 03:48 PM
The SKS bayonet is not sharp- it's a poker, not a slicer.

But, I am not familiar at all with TX laws; maybe somebody else will chime in with the specifics on that.

arthurcw
July 9, 2006, 12:46 PM
I think pokers and slicers over 5.5" are both verboten in Texas. But not sure if "TRUNK" is "on or about your person?" If so, I have a nice set of screwdrivers that could get me a weapons charge. :neener:

Maybe I should float this part of the question over on the Non-firearms forums?

arthurcw
July 10, 2006, 09:56 AM
OMG! This topic is driving me full goose bozo! Sorry, I know we all want it to die.

To all that said the SKS would fit me with an unaltered Stock. +1

After a particularly BAD day I just had to go gun shopping. I ran across a nice Chinese SKS that shouldered very nicely. I didn't get it. "WHY," You may ask? Because it was missing its bayonet but not its lug. My understanding was that it had to have the bayo to be sold. Didn't want any bad juju so I passed on it and went home.

I did some research. So now as I look at the this (perhaps sideways), I could have bought it and not been in trouble cause I was not the one that altered it? Is that correct? Also, seems that the BATFE ordered that SOME of the Chinese SKS be sold W/O bayonets back in the early 90ís and this may have been one. This is all too insane!

While I'm not the type to call for wide spread reprisals, there should definitely be some people rounded up and sterilized for these insane convoluted catch 22 rules.

May have to go back to that pawn shop and get it today. Now I just want one just because!

Technosavant
July 10, 2006, 11:14 AM
I do not believe that all Chinese SKSs were imported as C&R rifles. So, the existence of a lug (but not bayonet) is probably not a problem. Might be one in CA, don't believe so in TX. Again, I am no TX lawyer.

arthurcw
July 10, 2006, 11:28 AM
Oh this just keeps getting better and better. LOL!

Edited: To heck with it. If it's still there, I'm getting it.

Technosavant
July 10, 2006, 01:05 PM
Yeah, plumbing the legal depths of the SKS turns into a hellhole of arcane and obscure regulations (multiple sets, as a matter of fact) VERY quickly. It has been imported as a sporter rifle and as a military weapon. It has appeared in every guise from a plinking rifle to all dolled up with every evil feature you can name. There's cheap ones, there's pricey ones. There's clean ones, there's ones that have a full barrel of grease concealed in the works.

It must be a great gun, since if it were a real turd of a weapon, nobody would bother to wade through all the crap to figure out how to stay legal with one. :evil:

Brian Williams
July 10, 2006, 01:42 PM
If I got an SKS I would follow what Gewehr98 did to his found in this thread

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=204951&highlight=sks

http://mauser98.com/targetsks1.jpg

http://mauser98.com/targetsks2.jpg

arthurcw
July 10, 2006, 03:14 PM
I just want a cheap semi-auto. Not a match grade tac driver. I'm not gonna go hunting nats at 200 yards. I just want an "anti Bad Guy 50 to 100 yards out get the heck away from my stuff bang bang bang duck for cover reload bang bang bang" kinda gun. Soemthing that can get dropped, left in the trunk, used as a club... something already so ugly that you are only gonna give it more character with use.

That gun is just too pretty for what I want.

railroader
July 10, 2006, 07:34 PM
Chinese sks's aren't c&r. The ones imported after I think 1989 couldn't have bayos(the lugs didn't matter. This gets confusing because you can't go by the manufacture date but it has to be the importation date and who has papers for that. From what I gather from the sks forum you can't legally put a bayo on a later model chinese sks but if say you purchase one that already has one on it you haven't done anything wrong but the rifle could be confiscated for having the bayo. Mark

arthurcw
July 11, 2006, 12:01 AM
Well...put the thread to rest. I went and bought it. I like it. Gotta clean it and fire it now. That won't be for a few days.

It's a 16" carbine. It seems in pretty good condition. Nothing seems to fit sloppily. All the serials seem to match so it doesn't look overly bubbaed.

I have no clue what its production date is. But she is blood thirsty. How do I know? ...Got my finger trapped in the buttstock’s spring-loaded opening trying to put the cleaning kit back in. Yep, we are gonna get along just fine. I like ‘em feisty. :)

P.S. thanks for all the help. You guys are the best.

railroader
July 11, 2006, 08:28 AM
Sounds like you got a paratrooper model.Those are more sought after. Enjoy your rifle. Mark

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