[Chuck Perry]

I have always been a big bore believer. If it didn't start with 4 or end in magnum, I wasn't interested. Now that I have purchased a 9mm Hi Power, I find myself making exceptions for the 9mm that I would have scoffed at previously. Next thing you know I'll trade my 1911's in on Glocks. Well, maybe not.

[NEtracker]

My '91 Hi-Power is one of my favorite 9's!

[George Hill]

Chuck, I am in the same boat. If this time last year you told me that I would be packing a Beretta 92FS 9MM and liking it - I'd have punched you right in the nose.
"What? A sissy 9MM?!?! Those are fighting words!"

*sigh*

People change. 8 rounds... or 18 rounds? Let's just say that WC3Gun opened my eyes on a few things...

[garrettwc]

People change. 8 rounds... or 18 rounds? Let's just say that WC3Gun opened my eyes on a few things...

George, please elaborate. I would be interested to know what changed your thinking.

[Marko Kloos]

The 9mm most definitely does not suck. It's my favorite handgun caliber for many reasons, chief among which are low cost, controlability, and the many fine handguns chambered for 9x19.

A reliable 9mm with a magazine full of +P Gold Dots or +P+ Federal 9BPLE is easily as good for defense as anything else out there.

[New_comer]

Ahhhh.... :)


I feel like that fabled turtle thrown in that pond...


9 mm bliss!!! :D:D:D

[buzz_knox]

I've actually become a total 9mm convert (except for .45 1911s of course). I've started using 147 gr Ranger for my full size 9mms (Glock 17 and Sig 226) and 127 +P+ Ranger or 124 Gold Dot for those with shorter barrels or which don't handle 147 as well (P7s).

Take a look at www.tacticalforums.com for information on 9mm rounds.

[Cooter Brown]

Unlike as is the case with women, a guy can have as many guns as he wants at the same time, and be passionate with them all!!!

[WonderNine]

Perhaps the 9mm doesn't suck?

Another one sees the light....

[10-Ring]

Yeah, between my P7M8, Italian 92fs, USP 9 &USPc 9 I think I'm a 9mm fan too :cool:

[JeepDriver]

I have six 9mm's so far, and I'm planing on atleast 2 more this year.

I can't think of another caliber that is as easy to shoot and as cheap to shoot. (other then 22LR!!) I've had a 40S&W and a 45 but I never felt as comfortable with them as I do with my 9mm's.

[chevrofreak]

i used to think 9mm was total crap. why would you want a 9mm?


now i own one, and have come to realize that many 9mm loads are equal to .45ACP loads as far as energy


i picked 9mm for cheap shooting, but i fell in love

[Trisha]

I've never understood the whole debate - 'cause if you can satisfy yourself with your skills, what does it matter?

And if you enjoy what you shoot, you'll likely develop into a much better shooter than otherwise!

[Lancel]

Yup, I know what you mean. Had planned to get rid of my last 9mm when I left the military but in the end I couldn't find a logical reason to do it.
I love the 10mm but use/carry the 9mm more. Go figure. :confused: :)


Larry

[modifiedbrowning]

I love the 9X19, especially German Wundernines. I just sent in my money on my 7th 9mm, a Walther P88 Compact, life is good!:)

[Tamara]

I will only carry 9mm, .45, 10mm, .40, .41, .44, .38, .357, .32, .380 or .25...

[George Hill]

Well, my "Conversion" went something like this...

A center of mass hit from a 9MM is just about as effective as the same hit from a .45... If you are using good quality HP ammo that is.
At the WC3Gun, misses didn't count. I needed to be able to make fast, multiple hits, and as many as possible. I was doing pretty good with the .45 - but what was killing me was the reloads. The 9MM guys (and the HIGH CAP DOUBLE STACK .45 GUYS) sometimes would only have to reload once... or sometimes not at all. While the .45 guys (single stack like I was) had to reload 2 or 3 times.
Doesn't sound like a big deal... but it made a difference.

Now, the whole deal was a "Stress Fire" event. Misses happened, and the more you missed, the more you reloaded. Now, I factored in a few things... the times I had to use my handgun... one instant stands out. I was caught flat footed and took a round to the chest. I fired 8 shots in return. I only scored 2 hits to the thug's right leg. I was aiming for his upper center of mass area. I don't consider that good shooting. Had I been armed with an M9, Maybe I would have done better. You can't look back and tear yourself apart... it's not productive... but you do. You relive it. Your mind comes up will all sorts of what if.
Anways, all my what if answers pointed out that I need more rounds.
Right or Wrong... I needed a gun that I could shoot faster and with more bullets. Not Spray and Pray... I just wanted a high cap that I could shoot quicker between shots. It's about twice as fast as a 45 in my hands.

But that is just me.

I may be wrong.

[Onslaught]

Let's say, for arguement sake, that the 9mm is the equivilent of a 6-cylinder engine. Not the smallest, but not the biggest either. Middle of the road.

Well, you can have a 6-cylinder Toyota, or you can have a 6-cylinder Porsche...

Guess which one the BHP is? :D

[Al Thompson]

After I got out of the Army and started deer hunting in SC, I finished off a couple with my .45 and a couple with my 9mm. The 124 Gold Dots worked extremely well and modified my thinking. I still like the idea of bigger is better, but based on flesh and blood tests, the 9mm will work with a good JHP.

Last critter I killed took a 124 gr Gold Dot through the skull from behind and the exit wound was the size of a nickel. Not saying that a boar's head is 'zactly like a persons. but close enough for me.

[garrettwc]

Well, my "Conversion" went something like this...

A center of mass hit from a 9MM is just about as effective as the same hit from a .45... If you are using good quality HP ammo that is.

I agree.

The 9MM guys (and the HIGH CAP DOUBLE STACK .45 GUYS) sometimes would only have to reload once... or sometimes not at all. While the .45 guys (single stack like I was) had to reload 2 or 3 times.
Doesn't sound like a big deal... but it made a difference.

BTDT

Now, the whole deal was a "Stress Fire" event. Misses happened, and the more you missed, the more you reloaded...
...Right or Wrong... I needed a gun that I could shoot faster and with more bullets. Not Spray and Pray... I just wanted a high cap that I could shoot quicker between shots. It's about twice as fast as a 45 in my hands.

But that is just me.

I may be wrong.

I don't think you are wrong.

This is sort of where I am at. I started with a 9MM, then migrated to the 1911 and .45ACP. Part of it was a fondness for that particular gun, part of it was the hazing I got at the matches for my "itty bitty" holes on the target.

Lately, I have been thinking of switching back. Don't get me wrong, I like the 1911 for its classic lines, and no gun has as sweet a trigger, but for daily carry the nine might just be fine.

[Marko Kloos]

If you like the fit of the 1911 and BHP in your hands, try a CZ-75. It's just as skinny as either of the other two, and holds a lot of 9mm rounds with pre-ban magazines (which are cheap and all over the place).

I do like my CZs, and I plan on buying many more...they fit my hand just right, they're amazingly accurate, they always go bang, and they have lots of marbles in the tank.

[garrettwc]

If you like the fit of the 1911 and BHP in your hands, try a CZ-75. It's just as skinny as either of the other two, and holds a lot of 9mm rounds with pre-ban magazines (which are cheap and all over the place).

Yeah, the CZs seem to have as big a following.

I have handled one in the shop. It may have just been the one I was checking out but it wasn't quite the same as the BHP. I finally knew what a "gritty" trigger was. This one felt like scaping a metal rod across concrete. SKkkkick. Not at all what I expected based on CZs rep.

I need to look at them again to see if that one was just a fluke.

[cool45auto]

Yes Wondernine, another is converted. - (best Yoda voice)

"Next thing you know I'll trade my 1911's in on Glocks." Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's not get crazy.:D

[ether]

Well, Hi Powers are more powerful than other 9's (duh, hence the name).....most 9's do suck ;)

[Mike Irwin]

Everyone knows the 9mm sucks.


If you're on the receiving end of one. :)

[thaddeus]

Right or Wrong... I needed a gun that I could shoot faster... I just wanted a high cap that I could shoot quicker between shots. It's about twice as fast as a 45 in my hands.


Many .45 lovers will argue until they are blue in the face that they can shoot their .45 just as fast as they shoot a 9mm.
I have always said that "if that is the case, then why is the 9mm considered a 'cheater gun' in most competitions?"
Answer: Simply because....given comparable platforms....everyone shoots the 9mm better, faster, and they get more ammo.

I still prefer my .45 1911 because it is so slim I can conceal it very well. If I could find a double-stack 9mm as slim as my 1911 (with slim grips on it), I would carry a 9mm.

[WonderNine]

I will only carry 9mm, .45, 10mm, .40, .41, .44, .38, .357, .32, .380 or .25...

No reason to carry the .40, .380, and .25 :neener:

:cool:

[Marko Kloos]

If I could find a double-stack 9mm as slim as my 1911 (with slim grips on it), I would carry a 9mm.

The thinnest double-stack 9mm I know is the Browning BDM, which is even thinner than a 1911 in the slide. The grip might be as thin as a 1911 grip...definitely the skinniest double-stack out there.

[Kronos]

9mm is groovy for capacity and follow-up shots...till you try running caseless through a floating breach.

I'll just stick with my casset-fed HK USMP-7 and it's 120rnds of steel core 5mm standard caseless. :D

[Pico]

Most of these things turn into a 9 vs .45 debate (several have been going at CZ Forum) and nothing is ever settled. Instead of flaming one of these up, let me just offer my praise for the 9 mm cartridge instead without downgrading other calibers.

I have two 9 mms and wouldn't mind having another two or more. I also would buy a .40 or .45 if I saw a particular gun I liked which came only in one of those calibers but I think I will always stay mostly with 9 mm for overall use. Why?

The 9 offers me the opportunity to shoot a lot of practice rounds without going into debt. It is an easy recoiling round for my son and wife to handle. I get to load lot of rounds in my gun which is reassuring if I need to pull it out. I can get premium loads and be assured they will feed and extract with no problems. I don't worry about Kabooms because the guns I shoot were designed for the 9 mm and not modified to shoot a heavier, more powerful bullet later.

I like what I shoot, you probably like the caliber you shoot, whatever it is. What is the best caliber is not as important as who is the best marksman who can put the most rounds on target consistently.

Pico

[Boats]

My conversion went the other way.

I used to be a Beretta 92 fanatic. I had several of the pistols, could detail strip them, had 15, 18, 20, and 30 round mags. I had about 30 full cap or better mags in total.

Back when I was a reserve deputy in the early 90s I would carry a 92. I would have only traded to carry a 93R. Anyways, long story short, my best friend in the office carried a Glock 17. (You think pistol debates are heated here?:D ) My buddy gets the 911 call one Sunday morning about a dog threatening a family in the countryside. I decided to cruise on over because there was really nothing happening in my adjacent patrol sector and I was almost as close. I sought permission to go and received it. I get there and there is a feral dog, some kind of German Shepard mutt. It was hard to tell, but he looked rabid. He had been threatening some kids on the other side of a rod and wire fence when they were playing. It was going to take animal control about 40 minutes to get to the scene. My friend cleared shooting the dog through the deputy in charge. Shotgun or pistol? He decided pistol. Double tap to the noggin with 124 gr.+p Gold Dots results in pissed off dog who advanced aggressively. It took three more to shut him down.

Examination of the destroyed pooch revealed that all of the rounds had hit the dog pretty much in the face/head. The first two had apparently skidded off the dog skull. Only one of the last three looked effective, but was probably just the nastiest looking as it messed up the muzzle pretty bad.

Monday, my friend traded in his G17 for a G22 at the gun shop. I started returning to the 1911s like I had grown up with and served with in the Navy. I started selling off all six of my 9mms. For my remaining time with the department I switched to a Beretta 96.

Nowadays I only have 1911A1 .45s and some mouse guns for deep concealment though I am thinking of getting a CZ for plinking. I will never again rationalize the 9mm into the self-defense role like I used to and trust the mouseguns only at arm's distance to the face of an assailant.

[FJC]

I prefer the .45, mainly because I like the 1911 platform. I own, and have carried 9mm weapons (HK P7M8, Browning Hi-Power, etc), and have NEVER felt under powered with them. I shoot my .45's better than my 9mm's, but that's simply because I've spent more time practicing with my Colt's than with the 9's.

I'm of the opinion that with modern ammo, the differences in effect between 9mm and .45 aren't enough to matter significantly, and I always get a chuckle when the fanatics on either side set the threads on forums like these on fire. :D

[thaddeus]

That is a telling experience, Boats. But one problem I have with it is that the .45 is really no better of a penetrator than the 9mm, so what makes you think a .45 to the dog's skull would have had any different results? In fact the 9mm usually penetrates better. So, until you shoot a dog in the head with a .45 and it works better, the results are inconclusinve. You FEEL better with the .45 but that has no bearing on whether it really would have worked better.

There was a similar story on TFL of a deputy who shot a downed deer in the head with his .45 and it did not penetrate the skull, twice. Another deputy came up with a 9mm shot the same skull and it penetrated and put the deer out of its misery. You can imagine how the .45 guy felt then. ;)
Another similar cop story was told onthese forums of one officer who shot a dog with a 9mm, and the dog charged and ran the officer up a tree. Along comes another officer who boldly walks onto the scene with his .45, thinking it will solve what the 9mm could not. He proceeds to shoot the dog a second time with a .45, and the dog then runs him up a tree too!

So far, in any such comparisons I have never seen proof that the .45 works any better for such uses, but rather it only makes the user FEEL better thinking it might.

[Boats]

Maybe so Thaddeus, but I have seen the elephan. . .er. . .the dog, and the 9mm in my experience failed, not spectacularly because it finally killed, but failed to stop fast enough when I saw it called upon firsthand. Will a .45 do any better? Who knows? I only know where I have been with my experiences and now I am placing my chips on bullet weight and momentum rather than speed and capacity. Perhaps shot placement isn't everything because the bullet still has a job to do once it is placed.

A detail I forgot to mention is that to this day I carry a mag of hardball in reserve for just such occassions where deep/object penetration might be the more desireable result rather than expansion.

If I ever get involved shooting another aggressive dog and there is a choice of weapons, as the caddy I am going to recommend the shotgun first.:D

[sanchezero]

Boats,

The failure in the case you describe case was one of shot placement. Not that it's wrong to shoot something in the head :p but it must be understood that the skull is probably the toughest part of any animal (that doesn't have some kinda armor like a turtle ;) ) and it's fairly aerodynamic also.

There are lots of cases with lots of calibers of bullets slipping off of skulls and just tearing ears off or travelling under the skin etc.

In any case, I believe that your confidence in your weapon is important or you won't function properly.

:)

[Boats]

Due to terrain angle and fencing in the area, we weren't really given our choice of shot angle. I tend to think, like I said, that the shotgun would've been a better choice in retrospect, but when "stopping power" in a handgun is a matter of conjecture and faith, I'd say that both our faiths were shattered that morning, his more immediately than mine.

What it all boils down to for me is that no one rationalizes the effectiveness of the .45ACP. It just "is," being the benchmark for auto round effectiveness on living targets like it or not, much as the .357 mag is the de facto standard by which revolvers are measured.

If I ever get shaken out of the .45 faith, one I errantly thought of as just war stories and hokum when I was a 9mm fan, I'll go metric again---to a 10mm:D

[caz223]

The sad thing is, that a .22 rifle would have prolly got the job done on the doggie....

[Pico]

Boats:

If it takes 5 rounds to put Fido down, that means you can get 3 rabid dogs per clip with 9X19 in your 92! Seriously, I would have probably gone with a shotgun for a mad dog (or PCP junkie for that matter) and passed the handgun option by in any caliber. Glad that one ended happily for all involved in any case.

My LEO friends all chant the same song about the 9 having too much penetration and not enough knock down. In truth, their .40's are slightly better ballistically but not signficantly so, especially in 180 gr loads. In 155 and 165 gr loads, they are in danger of having some pretty mean over-penetration problems themselves. I have also heard expert criticism of the .40 not being that much better considering the added recoil and stress on the gun frame and chamber. Regardless, I would be proud to own and carry the 9, .40, or .45, in any platform and would feel well armed with any of the three in most situations I would find myself in. If I were to buy another gun, it would be in .45 and would probably be a Sig P220 or CZ-97B. Love these big hefty guns.

There are too many possible scenarios out there to say one caliber (or one round) will work for everything. I would also chime in about 10 mm being pretty impressive. I consider it a genuine step up from 9 mm, .40, and .45 which I consider, respectively; small and fast, bigger and slower, and much bigger and much slower.

Pico

[Pico]

Correction...

If I were to buy another gun in a caliber other than 9 mm , it would be in .45 and would probably be a Sig P220 or CZ-97B. Love these big hefty guns.

[caz223]

Anyone who DOESN'T consider a 10mm a genuine step up from 9mm, .40 or .45, hasn't shot one yet.

[buttrap]

Well I really dont think Gold Dot loads are worth a snot on heavy dog skulls if its a bit of a deflection hit. .45 ball loads will skid across a dogs skull even with a lot of deflection angle. Dogs have small pea brains and aiming at the head between the eyes with the nose pointing at you will usually just knock a heavy skulled dog goofy as that shot missed the kill zone. Mostly situations like that are usually just the result of poor anatomical where to shoot than what to shoot.

[agtman]

"If I ever get shaken out of the .45 faith, ... I'll go metric again---to a 10mm"


Yep, the thinking professional's cartridge. :D

The 10mm Auto covers all the contingencies, whether they arrive on 2 legs or 4. ;)


"Perhaps the 9mm doesn't suck?"

No, it makes for cheap and easy target practice, and there's nothing wrong with a cartridge that encourages extra range time. 'Course, you don't want to overstate the case either. :D

[Pico]

I've heard endorsments of how great the 10 mil is by two very different sources. One is my coworker Brent who praised his Glock 20 over his 1911 and .41 mag long before I was into shooting.

Then I pick up Ted Nugent's book, "Gods, Guns, and Rock and Roll", and find out the G 20 is Ted's choice also for carry and handgun hunting.

Brent and Ted are at two very different ends of types of the human species. They seem to agree about the 10 mm being top dog for all around use.

Pico

[Boats]

My problem with the 10mm is that I don't want a Glock and I have yet to extensively shoot a 1911 style 10mm except for one time where I lucked out at the range when I guy let me shoot a box through his Colt after I paid him for the ammo. It was different, but cool.:D I wish I could find one to rent for a few hundred rounds to make up my mind. Oh well.

[tex_n_cal]

Of course it doesn't suck, and it is cheap and fun to shoot. Earlier this year I built a 9mm/.45 LW Commander. For CCW, I'd probably go for a compact 9mm.

All that said, none of the hi-cap 9mm's fit my hands, so a single stack gun is where I go. Why do I want a 10+1 9mm when I can have 9+1 of 10mm, or 8+1 of .45?

[agtman]

Boats:

You probably already know this, but FYI, if you don't like the grip of the large-frame Glocks (20 & 21), and many don't, there are 2 other grip/frame choices in 10mm to consider, aside from the 10mm 1911-pattern guns, like the Colt Delta or Dan Wesson's new Razorback.

First up is the S&W 10XX-series. You can still find many of these pistols in conditions ranging from merely "excellent" to NIB. If you've never handled the 5" 1006 or the 4.25" 1066/1076, you might look around for a 4506 or 4566 because the grip, frame size and weight are the same as the 10mms. A good thing to know is the easy changability of the factory grip-shape, from one with a "straight" back strap to an "arched" one. Also, Hogue makes soft rubber grips for the 1006, 1066 and 1086 (DAO) that fill the hand better than the factory grips, if you need that.

The second "style" of 10mm you might take a look at are the Tanfaglio Witnesses, which are patterned after the CZ's ergonomics, which was the model for the first 10mm, the Bren Ten. The Witnesses are priced to move, but be advised that they have also received mixed reviews. So before you buy do a Search to read up on EAA's (the distributor's) sucky customer service. Still, the owners of 10mm Witnesses that have run reliably and shot great "out-of-the-box" love them. Supposedly they're very accurate, and the CZ-style frame and grip shape distribute recoil well.

HTH. :)

[The Kidd]

I am not sure which is the better round so I shoot both

[denfoote]

To make your conversion complete, Grasshopper, you need to aquire a Luger!!! :evil:

[Boats]

"My Glock 20 cleared the holster and as I brought it up on target I shot a double tap cleanly at about 12 o' clock. Twelve on the clock tower 50 yards away that is, for you see, the grip angle had my Glock aiming for the sky.":D

My problem remains that I cannot find a Razorback or a Delta to try before I buy.:(

No DA/SA pistols in my safe, unless they are C&L capable. Maybe I'll have to find a Witness. They should be inexpensive.;)