[Cosmoline]

A reference to reholster ease in another thread got me thinking. I guess I've just never paid any attention to whether or not I can reholster my piece in a CCW rig. I figure if it's coming out in the wide world, it won't be going back in my holster. If something bad happens and the cops come, I assume I will be setting it in plain sight and holding my hands high so's I don't get shot.

Am I missing something? Why would ease of reholstering ever be a factor in a ccw rig?

[c_yeager]

I agree that the ability to reholster has almost no bearing at all on the real world. However, it does make for easier training (you need to put it back in to practice drawing/firing) and ultimately that easier training would pay off with more repititions and thus improved performance for that real-world situation.

[pax]

Cosmo ~

A regularly-carried CCW piece has to be holstered at least once a day, often more. Though you can sometimes fudge this simply by leaving the gun in the holster as the holster is placed upon and then removed from the belt, you're still going to be stuffing that loaded gun into your holster rather often.

A difficult reholster is very often a dangerous reholster. If the mouth of the holster is floppy, for example, the usual (bad) solution is to hold the mouth open with one hand while holstering with the other hand. This process usually results in the muzzle of the loaded gun pointing directly at your own hand. Bad juju, that ... especially when you factor in that floppy holster mouths can get caught in trigger guards as the gun is shoved into place.

With other holster types, the more contorted you have to move your body in order to reholster, the greater the chance that you will a) point the gun at some important body part during the process, or b) fumble the gun. On a really bad day, you'll do both. On a really, really bad day, you'll do both and then clutch at the gun as it is dropped, depressing the trigger at an Awkward Moment.

Easy reholsters are generally safer reholsters. For that reason if for no other, it's important to take reholstering capability into account when choosing a carry rig.

My opinions only. I could be wrong.

pax

[Cosmoline]

With all the floppy IWB's, though, I simply holster it *THEN* clip it on. I've never attempted to clip it on then holster the handgon. What's the danger in that?

[Vex]

I disagree that there is no use in reholstering a weapon. What if you need to do something with two hands? You can't just put the weapon down. When it comes out, it needs to be in your hand and under your control, or back in the holster, secured and under your control. You can't just stuff it into your waistband like a gangsta, it need to be secured so that if you have to do any strenous activity, it can be done without your weapon falling out of it's holster.

I always stress that if you are involved in a shooting, when the cops arrive you do not want to be the only person holding a gun. You will immediately be considered a suspect, and armed and dangerous. So what do you do with your gun? Put it on the ground? Well, someone else could grab it and use it. Unload it first? What good will that do if the person you just shot has friends who are waiting for you to be defenseless. Put it back where you found it: in your holster, in your control, and in a non-threatening place. When the cops arrive, do everything they say when they say it, as slow or fast as they want it done. They will secure you and remove your weapon.

[Cosmoline]

Well if there are still active hostiles, you won't be reholstering at all. And if there aren't you want the iron in plain sight I would think. That's what I've been taught anyway. Put it on the hood of a truck and step well away from it. If that's not a secure location retreat to a secure location and set it down.

[Chris Rhines]

Better to keep it on your person. You're not giving anything up by using a rigid holster, and you're gaining a lot (above and beyond the ability to reholster one-handed.)

- Chris

[mete]

NEVER have a gun in your hand when the cops arrive !!

[MCgunner]

I've drawn my weapon before, BG ran off, no shots fired, no cops called, put it away and went on with my vacation as if nothing happened, once the adrenalin subsided.

NEVER EVER carry a Glock in a floppy holster. :eek:

In Texas, it's illegal to carry in a post office, sporting event, place whose income 51% from sales of alcohol, amusement park, a business with the proper sign up, etc. You might just wanna stash the gun under the seat of your car. I ignore the deal, myself. If it's concealed, nobody will know. At events, though, I put it away. Some events will have metal detectors at the gate now days post 9-11.

And, no, never be holding a weapon when the cops arrive...:eek:

Anyway, for safe carry especially IWB, I consider a quality holster essential. I won't by those spring clipped floppy things, junk. Call me a holster snob, I guess, but a good rig like a Sparks Summer Special isn't, but about fifty bucks. I have one rig, a Rosen, that set me back $140, but I've used it a LOT. It's very comfy and ultra high quality. Pocket carry with other than a Glock, a true DA, you can get away with cheap. It just has to hide the print and keep the gun in place. But, IWB, I want quality. I think the best bang for the buck in IWBs is the Sparks Summer Special, of the ones I've tried. It's very high quality and affordable and is a comfortable way to carry a service sized gun securely.

[Clipper]

...If I have to use my CCW, I presume either my assailant(s) or I will be Hors-de-combat, rather permanently...If it's me, it's not an issue, but if it's the BG, I'm reholstering and will let the cavalry remove it later. Call me materialistic and heartless, but I paid way too much money for that truck to go scratching it up with my gun...Or to let my gun out of my immediate control.

[Lennyjoe]

I ignore the deal, myself. If it's concealed, nobody will know
And neither should we. ;)

I'm with Pax on this one. (notice I didn't use the +1::p )

[Bix]

How do you train with a CCW rig/gun that you can't reholster? :confused:

[rbernie]

When open carry is not an option, concealed carry is necessary. For most folks that CCW in warmer weather with lighter weight clothing, an IWB holster is more unobtrusive than a pancake or other OWB style. Many of the 'mo' stealthy' IWB holsters are not easily donned and doffed, since their belt loops are widely spread (no single belt clip) to reduce the printing of the holster. These holsters (e.g. the Milt Sparks Watch6 (http://www.miltsparks.com/images/Photos/WS1_large.JPG) or VM2 (http://www.miltsparks.com/images/Photos/VM-2_large.jpg)) pretty much require that you remove your belt to remove the holster. And, as has been pointed out by others, chances are that most folks will traverse a 'no-carry' area during the course of their daily travels.

So - if you CCW in a IWB holster in most urban/suburban areas, chances are that you'll be unholstering and reholsterings during the day.

[Essex County]

I'll have to go wuth Cosmoline on this one............Essex

[icecorps]

What if you draw, and it turns out not to be a threat? I'd hate to shoot myself in the hand trying to reholster after being scared by a raccoon.

[dairycreek]

How do you train with a CCW rig/gun that you can't reholster?

This is an important point:uhoh: Part of my practice drill regimen for CCW is to find the gun, draw if from the holster, and then bring it into play. Just what you would have to do should you need to unholster your gun in a hurry. As part of the drill reholstering is necessary. So, I need a holster that allows for easy reholstering. Doesn't everybody practice the draw?

[RyanM]

The vast majority of self defense incidents with a firearm involve zero shots fired. You start to draw, and by the time you've found the sights, the BG is facing away from you and about 7 yards away (reverse Tueller drill!). At that point, you can't stand around with a gun in your hand while you wait for the police.

[Cosmoline]

You're not giving anything up by using a rigid holster

A rigid IWB is extremely uncomfortable and bulkier than a soft IWB.

I'd hate to shoot myself in the hand trying to reholster after being scared by a raccoon.

Remove clip, holster firearm, insert holstered firearm under belt.

NEVER EVER carry a Glock in a floppy holster

Why? I've carried DA revolvers in floppy IWB's for years.

In Texas, it's illegal to carry in a post office, sporting event

That's a good point, but again why not just unclip the whole holster and set it aside? That way you never actually flash iron.

At that point, you can't stand around with a gun in your hand while you wait for the police.

Which is why I said you should set it down in plain view. You want your arms up AND you want the cops to see the firearm on the ground or truck or table. If you're worried about scratching a truck after killing someone, you need help!

[MCgunner]

Quote:
You're not giving anything up by using a rigid holster


A rigid IWB is extremely uncomfortable and bulkier than a soft IWB.

A quality rigid holster is more comfortable than a soft one, especially if your gun has lots of gadgets poking you through the material. Try a Rosen sometime.

Quote:
I'd hate to shoot myself in the hand trying to reholster after being scared by a raccoon.


Remove clip, holster firearm, insert holstered firearm under belt.

I don't carry cheap spring clip holsters. I've had 'em and had 'em come out with the gun on the draw. Now THAT would be more than embarrassing, wouldn't it?


Quote:
NEVER EVER carry a Glock in a floppy holster


Why? I've carried DA revolvers in floppy IWB's for years.

Because it takes all of 4 lbs (a little less and it'd qualify as a "hair trigger" to me) to set off a Glock into your gluteus. The revolver takes 12 or so typically and the cylinder in a holster will resist its turning, anyway. Even Glock types concede the necessity for a good, stiff holster that entirely covers the trigger. They've argued with me on this site that Kydex is best and I can see that, but I like good leather.

Quote:
In Texas, it's illegal to carry in a post office, sporting event


That's a good point, but again why not just unclip the whole holster and set it aside? That way you never actually flash iron.

Again, I don't carry in cheap spring clip holsters.


Quote:
At that point, you can't stand around with a gun in your hand while you wait for the police.


Which is why I said you should set it down in plain view. You want your arms up AND you want the cops to see the firearm on the ground or truck or table. If you're worried about scratching a truck after killing someone, you need help!

I'd rather reholster and have it on me. I want control of my firearm at all times until I turn it over to the responding officers. Seems like plain common sense to me.


__________________
She's fast and she's sleek, she's the northbound. She's the engineer's love and his pride. Through canyons and mountains a snowbound, it's the great Alaska Rat Rod I ride.

[Cosmoline]

You'd rather have the firearm on you after a defensive shooting?? I don't get that at all. I would want to minimize any possibility of the LEO misunderstanding me. If I say "I have a pistol" I would hope he'd understand it's not a threat, but then again if there's a dead man I might just end up joining him. I want the LEO to see the iron right there and I want to be able to say in a loud voice with my hands up "I AM UNARMED!"

A quality rigid holster is more comfortable than a soft one, especially if your gun has lots of gadgets poking you through the material. Try a Rosen sometime.

My experience with rigid IWB's has been with hard leather ones, which were very uncomfortable and which printed badly. Maybe the high end ones are better.

[Clipper]

...But I am indeed more worried about my truck than a dead perp...The ********* just forced me to shoot him! Obviously I am not one of your over-sensitive types who agonizes over having nightmares and such. The only thing I'm gonna be concerned about is making damn sure I have a righteous reason to use my gun in the first place...If I have, it's because the perp was doing something so heinous I had no other choice than to shoot, and I'm not gonna lose a split-second of sleep over it. People who do agonize over the use and aftermath probably have no business carrying, as they're the ones most likely to freeze up and get their gun fed to 'em...

[copaup]

I've got a Sparks Summer Special II for a 1911 that you don't even feel unless your pants are too tight. Truthfully, I prefer a belt holster over IWB, but that is mainly because a full size gun IWB always seems to ride ride under my right rear pocket and makes getting my wallet in and out somewhat difficult. I wear my belt holsters a bit further forward. I wear my IWB at about 4:00, just behind the hip.

I wouldn't dream of using a rig that collapses and makes holstering difficult. I've drawn my gun plenty of times and havn't had to fire it yet. I have had to shove it back into a hoster to do things like run, fight, and handcuff people. Granted, nonLEOs won't have to worry about handcuffing, but fighting and running are still possible.

As far as those floppy clip on IWBs go, its your gun and your choice, but I'd avoid em like the plague. Retention is weak. I had one when I first started out and saw my pistol go flying through space during a brief period of physical exertion. Not good. I did have a leather IWB clip on that was OK, but havn't seen many of those lately.

As an aside, as a police officer I would greatly prefer that you place the weapon on the ground (preferably action open) before we get there, if it is safe to do so. Remember that a good percentage of a metropolitan police department is made up of rookies, some of which are rather twitchy. There is a dead guy on the ground, and you are standing over him with a gun. Officer New Guy sees that and there may be a tradgedy for all involved. If its not safe to put it down, please at least holster and have your hands and weapon visible and far away from each other. Follow all instructions given, until we get everyone secure and get the story you are a suspect in a shooting. Even if you are off duty LEO (or on duty for that matter, but at least in uniform everyone knows who you are).

Reholstering is easy. Reholstering after lead has been thrown around or during a fight is REALLY hard.

For a quick on off holster I recomend the one way snaps on belt loops. A lot of makers have them now, and they generally seem to be more secure and stable than paddles and spring clips tend to stretch and become more likely to come out of the pants with the gun as they wear.

[Cosmoline]

People who do agonize over the use and aftermath probably have no business carrying, as they're the ones most likely to freeze up and get their gun fed to 'em...

I think you've been watching way too much TV. People who don't end up agonizing over blasting a man's life out of him have no business carrying. I know several people who've had to do it, and it hit them hard.

I've been looking around at some of the custom rigs. They're impressive, but most seem geared for very high belt carry. For some of the 1911 rigs, only the barrel is inside the band. The rest of the holster is above it. I couldn't conceal that. I also dislike the belt-based IWB's because I rarely wear a belt and also because I change pants multiple times a day. In the summer I swap from overalls to shorts to suit back to shorts back to something else. In the winter things get even more complex. So it's nice to have a clip-on. I've never had a problem drawing from an Uncle Mike's sidekick. And if I want to take the whole holster out I just grab the clip.

[SAWBONES]

For a dedicated CCW holster (a holster intended ONLY for CCW, not for training or range use), ease of access is paramount. You MUST be able to reach the gun and get it out of the holster fairly quickly.
As for putting the gun back into the holster in a self-protective situation, you'll do that only at such time as the threat is gone, and that WON'T be an emergency.

If you need to simply get the gun "out of sight" quickly, you can place it in your pants belt at the waistline and cover it with whatever covered it before you drew your sidearm in the first place, all without having to look down at the gun at all.
It doesn't HAVE to go instantly back in the holster.

Repeated discussions appear on gun-related BBs about this, with respect to whether a leather holster should have a reinforcing band at the mouth or not. It's up to the individual, but it's not anywhere near as important an issue as access. It matters not a bit to me one way or the other, and I have dozens of holsters both with and without reinforced mouths. ALL of them work for CCW.


OTOH, if you're going to own but one holster to use for everything, then get a good one with a "stays-open" mouth.

[Rob1035]

cosmo-
you've already broken tradition going with a plastic fantastic, I strongly suggest trying out the same for a holster. In my experience (which is limited to civilian concealed carry), a properly fitting kydex IWB is no less comfortable than a leather/soft holster, and in some cases (like my CTAC), more comfortable....

[NMGlocker]

Say you are approached by someone who is smaller than you and they have a knife and demand your wallet.
You draw your pistol but before you can put the front sight on him he throws the knife far far away.
Now since he is no longer armed (and smaller than you) there is no longer justification for deadly force. He isn't running away, but he isn't attacking you either.
Whatcha gonna do?
You can't stare him down forever, and you can't just walk around town with a pistol in your hand, and you sure can't lay it down on the ground while you fish your cheap clip holster out of your pants. It's hard to dig a cell phone out of your pocket and dial 911 while holding a pistol in your primary hand. If you just stuff it into your waistband, what happens if he rushes you? Weapon retention is nill in your waistband (not to mention the possibility of an AD).
Myself, I'd gain some distance, reholster and have both hands ready to either go "hands on" or transition to alternative force.
Not having the ability to easily reholster severly limits your options.

[Cosmoline]

Keep the pistol pointed at him and back away. Once a safe distance away, get ahold of the cops. No way would I lower my aim after being threatened by someone with a knife, even if he appeared to have thrown it down. How do I know he's really unarmed? He just threatened me, and he's not leaving. So even if he appears to have thrown an object on the ground I'm not going to assume I'm safe. In fact if he rushes me I'll assume he still has the blade and kill him. Under no set of circumstances would I re-holster until I was well away from him.

[NMGlocker]

How do I know he's really unarmed? He just threatened me, and he's not leaving. So even if he appears to have thrown an object on the ground I'm not going to assume I'm safe. In fact if he rushes me I'll assume he still has the blade and kill him.
You really need to learn about lethal force justification.
You cannot "assume" anything when using lethal force.
You really need to get some professional training and learn more about deadly force....... otherwise you could be headed to prison.

[ChickenHawk]

McGunner said:
In Texas, it's illegal to carry in a post office, sporting event, place whose income 51% from sales of alcohol, ... <snip>

A common misconception. Texas law does NOT prohibit carrying your concealed handgun in a Post Office if you have a CHL.

Cheers,
ChickenHawk

[mzmtg]

My USP goes in and out of the holster when I get in and out of the car. The gun isn't going to do me much good if I'm strapped in and sitting on it. It rides between the seat and the console.

Having a Kydex IWB makes the unholster/re-holster routine a cinch.

[Texfire]

McGunner said:
Quote:
In Texas, it's illegal to carry in a post office, sporting event, place whose income 51% from sales of alcohol, ... <snip>

A common misconception. Texas law does NOT prohibit carrying your concealed handgun in a Post Office if you have a CHL.

Cheers,
ChickenHawk

Actually more complicated than that. It isn't against Texas law to carry in federal facilities as it's neither listed as a prohibited local or a defense against prosecution. Whether it is illegal or not depends on an opinion issued by the local US attorney's office. So in specific counties it may be illegal, but in other counties it may not be. Here's a relevant quote from an Texas lawyer's take on this issue.

One must also realize that federal laws are not often enforced. Many local police often will not alert federal authorities to violations of federal laws. Even when they do, the US Attorney's office, often does not trouble itself with prosecuting them. They consider themselves too important and busy to concern themselves with "minor" cases. I am certain this is why the DPS told you what they did. They know our state penal code well, but federal laws, not really. Remember, reliance upon police agencies (or even their attorneys') "opinions" on the law is NO defense if a court disagrees with that opinion. We are all presumed to "know the law" and ignorance thereof is no excuse. This doctrine worked fine in the days when laws were few and simple. Not so today. Not even lawyers and courts can agree on what the law is.

Tex

[BullfrogKen]

Not to be a smart-@$$.

But, it seems like any reason folks have come up with as an advantage, you dismiss and scoff. So, why ask if you have your mind already made up?


Reholstering during training and stability are the key reasons for me having a leather, metal reinforced mouth holster. And, I carry OWB in a Sparks Road Runner . . . . concealability isnt an issue, it hides fine.

[Majic]

Which is why I said you should set it down in plain view. You want your arms up AND you want the cops to see the firearm on the ground or truck or table. If you're worried about scratching a truck after killing someone, you need help!
What the LEOs want to see is both your hands so they know there is no threat to them. You can then tell them before they approach you that you have a loaded weapon. They can then make the decision to allow you to remove the weapon or they can do it themselves.
Would you lay the weapon down if there were witnesses about or people coming up to help out?

[Cosmoline]

Not to be a smart-@$$.

But, it seems like any reason folks have come up with as an advantage, you dismiss and scoff. So, why ask if you have your mind already made up?

I'm just kicking things around.

Would you lay the weapon down if there were witnesses about or people coming up to help out?

I'd set it nearby once in a safe location. I wouldn't set it next to the body. I definately wouldn't pack it again as I don't want to be killed by LEO's.

You can then tell them before they approach you that you have a loaded weapon.

You're braver than me! THe words "I HAVE A WEAPON" are not the ones I want coming out of my mouth when the cops arrive. Cops who have just seen a dead man. It doesn't take much imagination to know how THAT could be misinterpreted, with tragic results for moi. You're much safer unloading the firearm and setting it in plain sight, then reaching for the sky.

You really need to learn about lethal force justification.
You cannot "assume" anything when using lethal force.


Of course you're able to make reasonable assumptions. Do you think you need to feel the blade in your belly before you can assume it's a real knife? Besides, you just told me to assume he had a knife and demanded money. What's your point, anyway? And why would someone demand my money, appear to throw the knife away and then stand there? In the extremely unlikely event that did happen, I'd be perfectly justified keeping a bead on him as I left. It would be madness to reholster.

[Saevar]

Cosmoline, how do you figure you're any safer saying "I'm unarmed"?

Why would the police believe you are, in fact, unarmed if they suspect you just killed someone? Sure, there is gun you put down in the open. But they have no way of knowing if that one is yours or the dead guy's. Nor do they know how many guns were being carried by the people on the scene.

I suppose if, when the police arrive, you spin to face them and scream "I HAVE A PISTOL!" your chances of being shot are probably higher than otherwise. Note that your chance of being shot in this instance isn't linked to the fact of you actually being armed.

I suspect that some law enforcement would prefer having a weapon set down in plain sight. I also suspect that some law enforcement would feel safer if you reholstered so that no one else can pick up the pistol and you informed the police, calmly, that your legally carried weapon is secured. I'd be picking the option that makes me feel more comfortable, since I can't know how the LEO are going to feel when they arrive. Either way, I'd be asking the police when they arrive how they want to proceed.

[Cosmoline]

I don't want my hand on ANY firearm once the cops are there. I'm just not willing to roll those dice.

[Vex]

Whatever happened to the creed, "Better to have it and not need it..." that I thought was very prominent amongst pro-ccw people?

Having to reholster and secure your weapon quickly is something that should be practiced until it's second nature. There are numerous reasons why it's better to put the gun back where you found it, because every other option is unsecure and could lead it to be misused. How do you expect to be able to drive a car with the gun just flopping around in your waistband or on the passenger seat? What are you going to do with it when you need to do CPR on someone? What about climbing a fence, or swimming, or running through a dense forrest?

If you can't reholster your firearm, you are limiting yourself to one free hand because you never learned how to reholster your weapon. How many things can you think of that you can do faster with one hand than two? Not many. Can you dial a phone with one hand? Can you get your keys out of your right pocket when your gun is in your right hand? Can you open a multi-lock door with one hand? Who here has practiced running, jumping, swimming, and climbing with one hand free and another holding a gun? Who here has better balance when you're running with a gun in your hand? Who here has practiced running with a gun and not pulling the trigger accidentally? It could be a liability.

It just doesn't make logical sense to purposely limit your options like that....

[ShackleMeNot]

You are sure putting up quite the noble fight in defense of your inferior holster.

[lastcavalier]

ShackleMeNot, ease up a bit.

Cosmo started/continued this thread because he finds very stiff holsters to be uncomfortable. Knowing the recommendation that one use a stiff holster to aid the one-handed re-holster, he took the next logical step by contemplating the need for the one-handed re-holster. Cosmo continues to ask questions of people trying to expand the ideas.

Thus is the Socratic method, an excellent way to learn. Cosmo, thanks for the thread and for pursuing it, it's helped me think through the situation.

Try to remember that these threads are not only for the benefit of those participating in the discussion, but also for the lurker-types like myself who prefer to sit back and listen.

That said, please continue arguing the point, but argue the point, not the man.

[ChickenHawk]

Texfire wrote:
Actually more complicated than that. It isn't against Texas law to carry in federal facilities as it's neither listed as a prohibited local or a defense against prosecution. Whether it is illegal or not depends on an opinion issued by the local US attorney's office. So in specific counties it may be illegal, but in other counties it may not be. Here's a relevant quote from an Texas lawyer's take on this issue.
Well, since the whole point of concealed carry is to protect myself and my loved ones from harm, I guess I'll chance it where Texas does not prohibit it and take my chances on what might happen if I ever am forced to use deadly force.

I'm certainly not going to disarm in "ambiguous zones" just because I don't know who the local prosecutor is. For that matter, I'd say that I consider all areas to be entirely non-ambiguous based on the Texas statutes. If I ever have to use deadly force, the fact that I was in a post Office will probably be the last thing I am worried about!

Regards,
ChickenHawk

[Texfire]

I wasn't advocating that you disarm or anything of the sort, just passing on a tidbit from my CHL instructor that I found interesting for your information. Do with it what you will.

Tex

[Cosmoline]

It's all food for thought, and I think there are some areas here where none of us have given enough consideration. There is apparently no SOP when it comes to what to do with your firearm AFTER the shooting. I'm going to call Gresham this Sunday and toss the issue out to the wider world.

It's also pretty apparent that the quality and selection of high ride belt-attached IWB's is better than the selection of deep concealment clip-ons. I still haven't found anything better than my large semi Uncle Mike's. Though some of the Kydex options are interesting.

Part of the divergence may lie in how we use our concealment holsters. For me I *ONLY* use it when in the city. Anywhere else I go with an outside leather holster. I'm also not an LEO, so I don't have to draw and reholster from the CCW in town to use cuffs or whatnot. I just have it there and make sure I can draw quickly if I need to. Otherwise I don't give it much thought and I certainly don't draw it in town without a darn good reason.

[SteveS]

If I am at home and the threat has ceased, I would certainly place my gun down with the action open. Out in public, depending on the circumstances, I doubt I would do this, especially if there were other people milling about. I would place it back in the holster and wait for the police to arrive. When they did arrive, I would keep my hands visable and wait for their questions/instructions. I don't see having my gun on the groud as making me any safer, as there is no reason for them to assume that it was mine, or take me word if I said it was mine.

[Bix]

Cosmo said:

There is apparently no SOP when it comes to what to do with your firearm AFTER the shooting.

Actually, numerous training classes address this very issue in their POI. FWIW, those that I've attended (LFI/Ayoob and DTI/Farnam come to mind) stress the critical importance of being able to reholster your pistol one-handed without looking.

[Cosmoline]

But the LEO's I've talked to (including the nice fellow who was aiming an AR at me when responding to a DV call I'd phoned in) have made a point of putting the unloaded firearm down on the ground some distance away, with instructions that I should not touch it until they are gone. As far as I can tell, that's how they like to keep things when they're responding to calls involving violence. In the dark with someone dead, things can get really dicey and triggers can get squeezed. Best not to take the chance. Unload your iron and put it down, then raise your hands high. Don't twitch and don't make any sudden movements. I've never heard Mas' doctrine one way or the other, but *HE'S* not the one looking down the barrel of an AR with some 20-something cop on the other end. He's also an LEO himself, which as I noted requires reholstering a lot more.

[Charles S]

A reference to reholster ease in another thread got me thinking. I guess I've just never paid any attention to whether or not I can reholster my piece in a CCW rig. I figure if it's coming out in the wide world, it won't be going back in my holster. If something bad happens and the cops come, I assume I will be setting it in plain sight and holding my hands high so's I don't get shot.

Am I missing something? Why would ease of re-holstering ever be a factor in a ccw rig?

I would be willing to bet you have never taken a handgun class. Take a defensive handgun class from LFI, Gunsight, Thunder Ranch, Jeff Farnham, Jim Cirillo, and then let me know if you feel the same way.

I would also be willing to bet you don't practice shooting from the holster much either. Take a day and go shoot a couple of hundred rounds utilizing your holster to present and aim and shoot. Again, after you are done let me know what you think.


I disagree that there is no use in reholstering a weapon. What if you need to do something with two hands? You can't just put the weapon down. When it comes out, it needs to be in your hand and under your control, or back in the holster, secured and under your control. You can't just stuff it into your waistband like a gangsta, it need to be secured so that if you have to do any strenous activity, it can be done without your weapon falling out of it's holster.

+1

There are so many possible scenarios where you might need to re-holster one handed that I will not attempt to address them all.

Again, get some professional training, and spend some real time in practice utilizing your holster. Then let us all know if you still like a cheap holster that will not let you re-holster your gun.

Charles

[BrainOnSigs]

A few comments not directed at anyone. My experience is from 5 years of CCing, several defensive/tactical courses, personal friend's experiences, discussions with DAs and discussions with police officers.

1) Buy a good holster. Weapon retention.....comfort....longevity......all need to be considered. I prefer leather but many kydex holsters are proven. You will need to draw and reholster many times to break-in the new holster properly while getting a feel for how it works. It drives me crazy when someone buys a $700 combat handgun then sticks it in a $15 holster and wonder why there are issues.

2) If you haven't taken any training courses. Do it! You will need a good holster since any good course will require you to draw, shoot and reholster. How are you going to become proficient in defending yourself/family if something bad happens? Try drawing from concealment 50 times in a row. How many times do you grab shirt or snag on something? Don't stop...keep drawing. This is what will happen when you are in a bad situation. There aren't any "do overs." Reholstering is important from a safety and a training standpoint.

3) Retain your weapon after a shooting. You need to keep it under control for your safety and the safety of others. Your adrenaline is sky high and you probably won't keep track of it. Take a deep breath and carefully decock or lock (if applicable) and reholster it out of sight. When the police arrive keep your hands in plain sight and announce that you have reholstered your weapon and it is on your (fill in the blank).

4) If you pull your gun and a BG splits. Don't leave. Call the police. (I'll assume that you are legally carrying). I repeat CALL the police! Will you be delayed? Certainly. Will it be a hassle? Possibly. Maybe they will catch the BG with your description and protect some helpless sheeple from getting hurt. I have seen (thru a friend) what could happen if you don't. An arrest, all his guns confiscated, loss of his CHL and several court battles. This was due to a transient, who pulled a knife on him, called the police after he left and told his side (lies) of the story. It has been a nightmare. Even the hammerhead DA told him that the person calling the police gets his story in first (and is usually believed). Always carry a cell phone when CCing. Just free words of advice. Take 'em or leave 'em.....

[Charles S]

BrainOnSigs,

Excellent post.

Charles

[carry2011]

Say you are approached by someone who is smaller than you and they have a knife and demand your wallet. You draw your pistol but before you can put the front sight on him he throws the knife far far away. Now since he is no longer armed (and smaller than you) there is no longer justification for deadly force. He isn't running away, but he isn't attacking you either. Whatcha gonna do?
Nothing dictates the idiot won't have yet another weapon stuffed down there. The mere fact that one weapon was tossed doesn't mean a whole lot. He's no longer apparently armed, which precludes any overt shooting. However, a felony assault with a deadly weapon has just occurred. That guy is going to do time.

As for the bad guy, he's remaining face down under citizen's arrest until the police arrive, quiet to the last, with me at 8-9yds and the gun pointed just off to the side (from his backside). Of course, I will remain on the phone with dispatch, to ensure they have my CCW number pulled up, can confirm my description to the LEO's ... and generally can help me not get killed by unthinking LEO's.

Two risk areas: bad guy ignoring the risk and either fleeing or coming after me; and, the LEO's not having enough composure to accept a legally-armed CCW defending himself. That goes with the territory.

In short: I simply will not allow a bad guy to continue to be a threat to me, not when he's been willing to take a life. But that's just me.

[vanilla_gorilla]

BrainonSigs has it correct.

I think it is bordering on silly to unload and lay your weapon down to cater to responding officers. What happens if the action is not over and the police aren't there? What do you do? Before you respond that no such thing would happen, remember there are still many families that are quite clannish, and if they are nearby, they will likely not take kindly to you ventilating their kinfolk, regardless of what he was trying to do to you.

I think the best procedure is to safety, or decock your weapon, as the case may be, and reholster. When the blue lightsa rrive, your weapon should be out of sight (holster) and your hands high. Explain to the officer about your weapon and it's location. They'll take it out of your holster.

Now that that rabbit has been chased, back to holsters: I agree with the others. Buy a quality holster and practice with it. If your life means enough to you to buy a handgun to protect yourself, a good holster isn't much more. I've learned my lesson. Buy once, cry once. Reholstering is a valid issue, and I fail to see why one would pick an inferior holster. Even top quality holsters with no reinforcing band are likely to provide a little assistance with reholstering, but if it's a pain in the butt to reholster, are you going to practice with it? Unlikely.

[stevelyn]

Cos,

Here is an interesting article that addresses some of the points in this thread and my comments on your other thread that generated this one.

http://www.gunbast.com/RKCampbell_CCW.htm

I also recommend a training course too. I recommend it to everyone who has made the decision to carry a concealed handgun for personal protection. Training dispells some of the myths and misconceptions about CCW and defensive gun use in general. You'll also learn proper presentation and manipulation.....er more efficient manipulation becoming more comfortable with carrying.
And well.......you don't know what you don't know until you go through one of these classes.

You don't have to head off to the LethalThunderSight Gun Ranch either.

Steve McDaniel at Alaska Tactical is much more convenient and highly credentialed. Plus the training is more Alaska specific especially in the legal area, although I know you are an attorney....it still doesn't hurt to hear it again.

[roo_ster]

I once had a buddy who owned a car that could no longer use the "reverse" gear (poor college student). Sure, he could get where he going and navigate parking lots, but it took forethough and more time to do what I could do without a second thought. Also, if other folks did not react in the exact way he expected (parking in front of him for some reason, blocking his way forward in a lane, etc), he was in for a spot of trouble. I once had to help the guy push his car backwards in the middle of rush hour traffic. Not fun. (He had come up behind a stalled car & could not get around by going forward.)

Now, nobody would go out and buy a car lacking a reverse gear or a phone that lacked the numeral "5." I feel the same way about a holster. Re-holstering is just one of functions required for something to be called a "holster." Anything else is just a "fabric firearms pouch." The FFP may be the right answer in some situations: pockets & DEEP cover belly bands come to mind.

As to why would one re-holster a CCW, I can think of a baker's dozen right off the bat, some of which have been stated. The world does not stop turning after I draw my weapon.

Cosmo, you really owe it to yourself to get some quality gear to tote that SP101. Several quality manufacturers sell holster/belt combos. A good IWB holster (Milt Sparks VM2, HBE COM, etc) mated to a good belt is much more comfy than the Uncle Mikes clip-ons...and just as quick on & off*.

On the side topic of "What do you do with your weapon after a righteous shooting before the cops come?" Given time & proper security, I would reholster (& thereby re-conceal). Leaving your weapon lying unsecured is a bad idea. Weaponless hands in plain view accompanied by the calmest & most reassuring tone I can muster is the order of the moment. No shouting of "I have a GUN!" or "What do you want me to do with my gun!" or "I just shot this worthless meat sack!" No shouting at all, if I can communicate without raising my voice. I will inform them in general of what occurred and how they would like to proceed.

If I still have my weapon out when the cops arrive (due to lack of time or security), the weapon goes to the ground, my hands go up, and responsibility for securing the area and my weapon goes to the cops.

* Yes, I too was once an Uncle Mikes floppy IWB user.

[kikr]

Depends on your ROE. For me, I don't give two hoots about someone elses money. If some cannibal wants to rob the corner store they can have it. If I'm inside, I'm gonna fade to the back of the store and take cover with my weapon drawn. If the cannibal looks like he's going to shoot, I'll shoot. If not he walks out with the cash, I give a statement to the police and go home. Regardless, untill the gun goes bang I dont want anyone knowing its there. If I pull it and don't shoot it I want to put it away with one hand just as easily as it came out. Just one "for instance" to think about.

[Landor]

I think this is the most unthought about issue having to do with CCW. In my daily life I might have to unholster my gun 3 or four times a day. Re-holstering it can not be a problem because problems equal accidents. I wear a CTAC IWB and can honestly holster my gun with one hand. It sits at 4:00 and I don't even know it is there. I also use a leather belt with a plastic strip support. There are many reasons you may have to unholster your weapon that have nothing to do with using it. Weather it be a post office, church or some other reason. I can be sitting in my car and still holster it one handed. There are a lot of cheap holsters out there and some work great for what they are but the bottom line is you get what you pay for. I have tried many methods of carry. From $15 nylon holsters to belly bands to smart carry. All work to some degree for concealment but kydex in my opinion is the best answer for re-holstering. Just my 2 cents.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Landor40/Glock%2023/DSC02269Small.jpg

[ceetee]

Getting back to the knife-thrower-awayer for a minute... He's just commited a forcible felony. Most places allow the use of deadly force to prevent the comission of a forcible felony, and some allow it's use to prevent the escape of a person that's just committed the forcible felony.

One person posted that since he's visibly thrown his knife away, he's no longer capable of threatening you... Gotta call BS. I know lots of little guys that can beat bigger guys down into the dirt; life-threatening injuries are just as life-threatening whether they're caused by natural weapons (hands and feet) or artificial ones. If an "unarmed" man who has just comitted a forcible felony rushes at me, and I'm armed, He's showing the intent to do me harm, and therefore is gonna receive a series of hot lead injections until his intent has visibly changed.

That said, I've always been told that when you possess a firearm, that firearm should remain under your control, until your control is given over to another responsible party. I fail to see how you maintain control of a firearm that you've made safe and walked away from...

[Big Gay Al]

Carrying a firearm into a US Post Office is a Federal offense. Unless you want to be a test case and go to court to prove that having a ccw permit places us in the position of "other lawful use." Personally, I can't afford it. But if anyone else want's to try, go ahead, I'll give you 100% of my moral support. :)

Unless there's a cop present who tells me to lay my weapon down, it's not going out of my hand, except to return to my holster.

Yes, you really need to be able to RE-holster your weapon. Let's face it, very few of us will ever have a valid reason to pull our weapons to defend ourselves/others. Even fewer, will actually end up pulling the trigger. So, for those who pull it, then have no reason to keep it out, you NEED to be able to re-holster your weapon. Safely, and securely.

Think about it!!

[Cosmoline]

There's a lot of food for thought here, though I suspect the need to pull and re-holster is a lot more important to training and open carry LEO work than it is to day to day CCW. My big issue is that most of the "hard" holster options, whether kydex or leather, are geared for belt-based OWB or very high ride IWB. OWB doesn't conceal nearly well enough and high-ride IWB annoys me no end. Maybe it works for 1911's, I don't know. Also I rarely wear a belt and my winter pants are totally beltless.

The cheap-o soft Uncle Mikes is difficult to re-holster in, but it's a pretty easy matter to remove the entire holster and handgun in a single unit or to remove the holster alone, then re-insert as needed. When moving the handgun or removing it, the whole thing comes out in a single piece. SO IT IS NOT DRAWN. This is a nice plus in my book. It's also a very fast and trouble free draw. There are no clips or harnesses or anything else to get in the way. And the holster rides better than any other options I've tried on a much wider array of clothes, from formal suits to summer shorts to heavy winter thermals. It conceals perfectly. Unlike every one of the clip-on hard case IWB's I've seen, it rides nice and deep like a pocket. Not high and heavy with most of the pistol sticking out above the waist band.

I suspect that, as with many aspects of CCW conventional wisdom, we're learning from former LEO's and former military. While there is much good information from these sources, they do operate under a very different set of considerations. Among other things re-holstering is as vital as drawing for them, and they may have their iron out and back multiple times and have to do it without looking down. Barring some extraordinary set of circumstances, I don't see this happening much with me or a normal CCW holder. The circumstances where I've had to draw *without* shooting involve large hairy things that live here, and in that case it's been easy enough to pull the uncle mike's out, put the pistol back in and re-clip it. It takes me from ten seconds to thirty seconds to do this. If I need to be faster I just toss the pistol in my pocket, man purse or backpack. The firearm remains in my control, so I don't see the problem with this.

As far as what to do when the cops arrive, some very good points have been brought up. But again as long as the handgun remains in my control I don't see the problem. If unloading it and setting it in open sight is not an option, removing the holster, putting it in the holster and sticking it in a bag or back in my waistband would work as well. I like the idea of setting it in its holster at my feet as they arrive, then raising my palms high. They can proceed as needed from there.

[.45&TKD]

I CCW a full size 1911 in a Bianchi Model 100 Professional.

It is a clip on, and it does collapse, but it suits me.
I do not do live fire drills with it. (Tried it once. It was a PITA to reholster).
I do practice dryfire drills. The holster stays put, the gun draws easy, and the collapsed holster helps mobility, crouching done, etc.

I do not carry concealed all day long. I work out of my house. I pop the gun and the holster IWB when I leave and take the gun in the holster out when I get home. Its easy to put back on if I need extra protection to answer the door or sounds in the night. Its easy to slide on when I'm wearing shorts, no belt, etc. The clip works and the gun slides right out when I want it to.

I would use something different, with belt loops, and rigid holster mouth, if I was carrying concealed for 8-12 hours a day, though.

For range steel target competition I use OWB Galco Combat Master.

[Cosmoline]

Again, look how high that thing rides. The clip starts a full half way down the pistol, with the bulk of it above the pant line. This is why most IWB's should be called ABOVE the waist band. Their designs come from a long line of plainclothes LEO holsters, where genuine concealment wasn't really the issue and the flash of the stock from an open shirt wasn't a criminal offense. I like the Uncle Mike's because it functions as a true extra pocket, with the top of the holster just slightly above the pant line and all but the corner of the back of the pistol stock sticking out.

[BullfrogKen]

Cos . . . we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[.45&TKD]

My previous post had just a stock photo form Bianchi's website.
Attached is my Kimber TLE in the holster.

I never thought about it riding high. I'm not sure how it could ride lower without having to reach inside my pants to pull it out. All I can tell you is that it is comfortable, the draw is easy, and the holster stays put and sheeple would never know I was carrying. It does rest at a somewhat forward tilt when I carry it.

[Cosmoline]

Do you always keep your top shirt closed? I just can't figure how to conceal an IWB riding that high with an open shirt such as a sport coat. The shirt gets tossed back by the wind or something and there's your iron plain as day. Indeed not just your iron but a big piece of what is obviously leather holster!

Here are some examples of what I consider to be classic plainclothes rigs that don't cut the mustard when concealed MUST mean concealed. Great for a cop or for training at the range, not so great for someone facing charges for flashing:

http://www.usgalco.com/Catalog/large/nsa2inuse.jpg

http://www.concealco.com/small_pics/in_use_cco_st_med.jpg

http://www.rmholsters.com/holsters/lowrider002.JPG

[.45&TKD]

I'm in the heat in Phoenix.

I wear an undershirt or a wife beater in between me and the holster and an untucked polo shirt over that. To draw I lift my polo shirt with my weak hand. I have practiced this dry fire and its second nature.

In the cooler months I wear a sweater or sweat shirt and do the same thing.

I guess I could cover it with a sports jacket, but I'd be more concerned with wanting the take the jacket off, as when riding in the car. Of course, in AZ, open carry is legal too, so it doesn't matter much if someone gets a glimpse.

If I have to have a shirt tucked in I usually go with a SP101 DAO .357 in an Uncle Mikes pocket holster in the front pocket.

[Cosmoline]

Yeah but what happens if a wind lifts the shirt back? I've seen a lot of iron that way, which I suppose the fellows were trying to conceal. But I gotta tell you it ain't nearly as concealed as you think unless you keep that top shirt buttoned down.

[.45&TKD]

Cos, I wear pullover sweaters, pullover sweatwhirts, pullover polo shirts with no button down.

You are right. Any unbuttoned button down is a risk.

[JTW Jr.]

here is where I wear a rigid FORM FITTING to the gun holster ( IWB), about 18 years ago just after getting my CCW I was waiting for my Alessi to arrive. I was carrying my 1991a1 Compact model in a soft side ( uncle mikes ) IWB holster.

Well a ladies car broke down and was blocking traffic ( and Vegas drivers aint gonna cut you a break... they turn into kamikaze pilots and try to dive bomb the stranded car I swear ) .

Well I jumped out of the passenger side of my wifes car and offered to push the ladies car into the 7-11 parking lot.... another fella came to help. We had that car rolling pretty good when my 1991a1 Compact came out of that cheap holster and slid across the asphalt. :eek:

As I scooped it up and stuck it in my back pocket , embarrassed as all hell..the guy helping said " 1991a1 compact eh ? "...

I will never carry in a cheap holster again.....ever...even just around the house. And equally as important is a quality belt.

and for the record my handgun will be reholstered before LEO's arrive on the scene if I am involved in a shooting. call me crazy but I still have faith that if I do not threaten them there will be no reason to worry about LEO using force.

[Cosmoline]

Mine comes out if I flip it upside down. Otherwise it's in there deep enough it won't pop out. I've been hiking, biking and on a meat boat in heavy chop with it.

[Big Gay Al]

Ok, first, I carry all the time, but I don't carry concealed all day long. When I'm at home, it's UN-Concealed. When I go out in public, I put a vest, or other cover garment over it.

No, I don't button the cover garment closed. On a VERY windy day, I might button the bottom button. But I like my vest, best of all. It's one of those "tropical" type vests. Looks like a photographer's vest, even though it's not that expensive. It runs $24.99 from blair.com. It comes in two colors, khaki, and slate blue. The one I currently have is in khaki. But I think when I order again, (sometime next month) I'm going to order that one in blue.

It gives me pockets for carrying extra stuff, and I like it.

FYI, in Michigan, open carry is legal, so if the wind does blow my cover garment open, there's "no foul."

[roo_ster]

Do you always keep your top shirt closed? I just can't figure how to conceal an IWB riding that high with an open shirt such as a sport coat. The shirt gets tossed back by the wind or something and there's your iron plain as day. Indeed not just your iron but a big piece of what is obviously leather holster!
...
Yeah but what happens if a wind lifts the shirt back? I've seen a lot of iron that way, which I suppose the fellows were trying to conceal. But I gotta tell you it ain't nearly as concealed as you think unless you keep that top shirt buttoned down.
FWIW, the only time I know I was made packing a CCW was front-pocket carry. From the rear, the stainless butt & magwell could be discerned.

Button-down (BD) and non-button-down (NBD) (polos, pullovers, etc) both have different strengths & weaknesses.

NBD/buttoned BD is not as likely to blow up/out in wind & expose CCW, but it is more likely to print if the wearer bends over without being mindful of his CCW and taking care to "lift with your knees." Unbuttoned BD will just ride up a bit, but is not as likely not get pulled taut & print.

Unbuttoned BD is much easier to draw from concealment than NBD, period.

What to do about BD & wind? Be mindful. Button up one or more buttons if the wind is brisk. Or, use some of sm's advice & weight the front bottom corners of the open BD shirt. This will keep it down and speed your draw.

Also, matching belt & holster color helps, whatever the cover garment, as does pant or undershirt color.

Mine comes out if I flip it upside down. Otherwise it's in there deep enough it won't pop out. I've been hiking, biking and on a meat boat in heavy chop with it.
I would suggest that unless a holster stays in place and secures your weapon while running at top speed, high & low crawling, climbing, jumping about, and whatever else might be required to save your hide; the holster is inadequate. This includes going azz over teakettle. If someone can not perform some physical act through disability, I guess they could cross that act off the requirements. Most quality IWB and some OWB are up to the task.

Standing in place and shooting it out is a good way to get shot. I ain't Wyatt Earp.

I don't know about anybody else, but I don't intend to make it easy for an opponent to shoot me. I will move, shoot, (& communicate if I happen to be with fellow buddies who also CCW). Notice, I put move before shoot (if I have the time to draw I will shoot on the move, but this may not be feasable). I value saving my own skin before shooting the BG. Saving my skin is the objective; shooting is one of several means. If the BG gets away, but I am still unperofrated or otherwise without serious injury, it is a "win," in my eyes.

For instance, there are several long, waist-high concrete block & stucco barriers in one place I frequent. Standing next to one, all it would take to get cover is to lean into the barrier and flop over in a controlled fall (most likely backwards, maybe sideways). This could be done faster than drawing & firing and faster than the time it takes to read this. Do I want my CCW to go skittering down the walkway in the middle of obtaining cover? I don't think so.

Here are some examples of what I consider to be classic plainclothes rigs that don't cut the mustard...
For any of those rigs, the cover garment would have to rise above the belt for any sensitive bits to show. Blowing the cover to the side would not expose the weapon, as they are all behind the blade of the hip (with maybe the exception of the last).

Also, if the wearer had gone to the effort of matching belt & holster color, the cover would have to rise well above belt level to expose anyhting that might be construed as a firearm of firearm gear.

Last, if someone is still bothered by the possibility of exposure, a tuckable IWB design could cure what ails 'em. Hang some keys off the exposed strap & you're now just a guy with a key holder strap:
http://www.stallionleather.com/images/KHS.gif?osCsid=f7d5d445abe01df6592507537157c98f

BTW, none of those rigs are high-rise, by any commonly held definition of "high-rise." The trigger guards are at or below the belt line. High-rise is usually seen only in some OWB designs. One of hte benefits of IWB is getting the firearm down a bit lower without sacrificing concealment.

High Rise for Revo:
http://www.usgalco.com/Catalog/large/SM.jpg

High Rise for 1911:
http://www.usgalco.com/Catalog/large/SILHO.JPG

As with anything, too much of "it" becomes a problem. If the weapon is too low/too high, it can be difficult to obtain a good grip in a hurry. You're either hiking your elbow to the sky (too high) or digging for purchase at the inadequate bit of grip exposed above the belt (too low).

-----------------

As with most things in life, cheap & gimmicky usually result in poor performance and more money down the road as lessons are learned.

[TallPine]

a piece of boot lace knotted to the proper length works just about as well as an UM IWB IMO ;)

(but you would have to be wearing a belt... how do people get by without a belt??? mine also supports a folding knife in a sheath, flashlight in a homemade nylon webbing holster, a nylon UM 6 round loop type cartridge holder, some keys on a boot lace, and my VFD pager)

[KD5NRH]

(but you would have to be wearing a belt... how do people get by without a belt??? mine also supports a folding knife in a sheath, flashlight in a homemade nylon webbing holster, a nylon UM 6 round loop type cartridge holder, some keys on a boot lace, and my VFD pager)

Mine supports a pair of pants. Well, OK, it also holds the holsters down, but keeping my pants on is a good enough reason for me to have it.

FWIW, for the folks wondering about IWB and tuckable IWB, I have pics of my newest carry rigs at this site. (http://kd5nrh.frih.net/HolsterReview/) Click any of the photos to enlarge. Note also that I don't wear them that far forward if I'm wearing them untucked; my Coronado vest doesn't blow around much, but it does tend to hang open far enough to expose a gun worn ahead of the side seam of the pants. With other cover garments, it just depends on my mood that day.

[Landor]

What I like about the CTAC is it is adjustable. The white line in this picture is your waist line. The holster is totally out of sight. If you use C clips or Velcro clips you would never see the holster without a weapon in it. In this picture you can see the sweat protector but I cut that off a while ago.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Landor40/Glock%2023/Image1.jpg

[Cosmoline]

Landor--that Comp-Tac looks promising. I'll keep my eye out for one.

[Charles S]

Landor,

I really like the CTAC holster.

Cosmoline,

You might want to try the CTAC, it holds the gun much lower than any other IWB holster I have tried.

suspect that, as with many aspects of CCW conventional wisdom, we're learning from former LEO's and former military. While there is much good information from these sources, they do operate under a very different set of considerations. Among other things re-holstering is as vital as drawing for them, and they may have their iron out and back multiple times and have to do it without looking down.

Cos, I do agree with you on this point. We do get most of our information from law and military, but that is, to date, the best source of applied knowledge. I would much prefer to learn from someone who has actually been there and done that than to make it up as I go along.

I also recommend a training course too. I recommend it to everyone who has made the decision to carry a concealed handgun for personal protection. Training dispells some of the myths and misconceptions about CCW and defensive gun use in general. You'll also learn proper presentation and manipulation.....er more efficient manipulation becoming more comfortable with carrying.
And well.......you don't know what you don't know until you go through one of these class

+++1!

One of the most important concepts, every who reads this post should understand is:

I'd rather reholster and have it on me. I want control of my firearm at all times until I turn it over to the responding officers. Seems like plain common sense to me.


It is common sense.

Charles

[Cosmoline]

I would much prefer to learn from someone who has actually been there and done that than to make it up as I go along.


Yeah, but been where and done what? I don't carry because I want to be a cop. None of us do. We carry for protection in the gravest extreme. I'm not going to be enforcing any laws or court orders, thankfully. Nor am I a uniformed officer (which is probably a good thing for the community at large). So why the fixation on learning from ex-cops?

That said, you guys have me looking seriously at leather and kydex.

[Charles S]

Yeah, but been where and done what? I don't carry because I want to be a cop. None of us do. We carry for protection in the gravest extreme. I'm not going to be enforcing any laws or court orders, thankfully. Nor am I a uniformed officer (which is probably a good thing for the community at large).

I agree with you 100%. I honestly hope my firearms skills are skill that will never be tested.

So why the fixation on learning from ex-cops?

Quite simply, because it is the best source of practical, reliable information. I agree that it does not always translate 100% to civilian carry, but some instructors have taken the time to make some of their classes more applicable to civilians.

Ayoob, Izumi are two excellent examples.

Cos,

For me there is no completely correct answer. I prefer to learn from those who have been in harms way, versus those who make it up as they go along. (I have been in those classes also).

Take a few really good courses, you obviously think things through, and then determine what knowledge and skills you can incorporate into your system and what is not really applicable to you.

Do take a look at the CTAC.

Good luck,

Charles

[Cosmoline]

I'm not refusing to take courses, don't get me wrong. I've gotten a lot out of instruction over the years. But I do think that as a general matter the CCW community needs to start standing on its own two feet and not simply be getting its "text" from Mas, Skeeter & Co. Indeed there's a great deal of danger in getting too hung up on LEO or military tactics and viewing them as the sine qua non of carrying.

For example, IMHO a civilian packing heat needs to pay much more attention to learning how to RUN AWAY than an LEO. The fine art of packing it up and buggering out can be your best defense. But it's easier said than done when the bullets fly. Learning to use my sidearm not to enforce laws but to cover my retreat is probably more important to me than it would be to a trooper. And I must say I don't know who trains this way out there, if anyone does. Think about it for a second. How many range courses are there out there that teach you the precise logistics and tactics of how to high tail it when the bad guy targets pop up?

These are just some thoughts to bounce around though.

[Charles S]

Cos,

you and I agree much more than we disagree.

For example, IMHO a civilian packing heat needs to pay much more attention to learning how to RUN AWAY than an LEO. The fine art of packing it up and buggering out can be your best defense. But it's easier said than done when the bullets fly.

I agree 100%

Learning to use my sidearm not to enforce laws but to cover my retreat is probably more important to me than it would be to a trooper.

I agree 100%, but classes I have taken have taught me how to utilize a handgun to cover my retreat. Egress is, arguably, the single most important tactic most CCW holders should know.

And I must say I don't know who trains this way out there, if anyone does. Think about it for a second. How many range courses are there out there that teach you the precise logistics and tactics of how to high tail it when the bad guy targets pop up?


Mr. Miculek at Bang inc., Mr. Clint Allen, Mr. John Farnam, and just to name the ones I have actual experience with. I understand that how to utilize a handgun in retreat is also taught at LFI.

Other instructors I have take have not addressed this topic. Honestly of all of the above mentioned instructors Mr. Miculek spent the most time on it.

Again, I agree 100% that retreat is a skill we should know, practice and utilize. Then again, I hope I never utilize a gun in self defense.

Charles

[Big Gay Al]

So why the fixation on learning from ex-cops?
How about because in general, they will have had the most experience in carrying concealed. Generally speaking, they've done the concealed carry routine longer than most of us. And typically, those willing to teach, usually DO have the most experience, and are willing to share their experience with the rest of us.

[warmrain]

"I've drawn my weapon before, BG ran off, no shots fired, no cops called, put it away and went on with my vacation as if nothing happened, once the adrenalin subsided."
The cops still need to be called. They need to be called before the BG calls them and reports some idiot brandishing. It is the first call into the PD that has the most credibility, that's just the way it is.

[pax]

Cosmo ~

And I must say I don't know who trains this way out there, if anyone does. Think about it for a second. How many range courses are there out there that teach you the precise logistics and tactics of how to high tail it when the bad guy targets pop up?
Marty Hayes, at the Firearms Academy of Seattle, teaches this as an underlying theme in his tactics classes.

You'd be surprised how many people have to be taught to get away instead of standing there ...

pax

[Big Gay Al]

I believe, most pistol combat courses take the assumption that running is not an option by the time you pull your weapon out. Let's face it, turning to run, when confronted by someone with a gun, may not be the brightest thing to do. Of course, this depends on distance between you and the BG.

[lawboy]

I have not read the entire thread so this may have been mentioned earlier, but I often reholster my gun while out and about. Most frequently this takes place while I am: (1) visiting a place where carry is prohibited: or (2) using the restroom at a public facility. I find it best to take the gun out of the IWB and let it rest on the floor in my pants/underwear, where it is concealed should someone bust in on me or look under the stall. A holster that does not collapse makes the reholster more secure, faster and less prone to accidents or fumbling the weapon. It is a safety issue in my opinion.

[dawg23]

Am I missing something? Why would ease of reholstering ever be a factor in a ccw rig?

Thankfully I'm a little late seeing this thread. Cosmoline starts off seemingly asking for advice. Then, when he gets it from several experienced members, he spends the next month debating them.:confused: