Mugger Shoots Compliant Victim (Pittsburgh)


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Beren
January 4, 2003, 12:47 PM
From the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review:

The gunman demanded Michael Lahoff's wallet. Lahoff did what police suggest: He handed over the wallet without resistance. But the gunman didn't follow the script and run off with his haul.

Instead, he shot Lahoff, of Castle Shannon, who now lies paralyzed and in critical condition in Mercy Hospital, Uptown, police said.

Pittsburgh police were searching Friday for the gunman who shot the 50-year-old copier repairman in the Smithfield & Liberty parking garage, Downtown.

Full story available at:

Man shot in downtown garage (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/news/s_111049.html)

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JackShandy
January 4, 2003, 03:33 PM
Bad guy has what he wants, and still shoots. What does he hope to accomplish? Well, hopefully it'll come back on him in a horrible fashion in the near future.
That's one of the most depressing things I've read.

4v50 Gary
January 4, 2003, 03:46 PM
How easy is it to get a license for a conceal weapon in Pittsburg?

If it's impossible, what irony. The police couldn't protect the victim and the victim couldn't protect himself.

Double Naught Spy
January 4, 2003, 03:59 PM
According to the FBI's stats presented on The Learning Channel or Discovery, the bad guys shoot compliant folks or just random witnesses who are present about 12-14% of the time. I don't consider those odds to be that good. If you watch some of these shows dealing with cops or police work, or maybe dealing with crooks, they often show a bunch of security camera videos and there will often be one or more incidents shown where the bad guys shoot some of the good guys even though everything went as they wanted. The really scary ones are when the bad guys leave, then come back in the store to shoot somebody, and then leave again.

Based on the stats, compliance does work most of the time, but I am not comfortable with that sort of mind set.

The real concern always posed is that you might make things worse if you resist in some manner. How much worse can it get than some guy with a gun pointed at me and threatening to kill me? Concern should not be on whether things could get worse or not. If they do get worse, I am dead and it doesn't matter. Concern should be on making the situation better for me.

sasnofear
January 4, 2003, 05:22 PM
Why don't they GET A JOB!

armabill
January 4, 2003, 08:26 PM
He shot cause he didn't want to leave a witness.

Blackhawk
January 4, 2003, 08:35 PM
Some bullies get a rush from having people submit to them, which encourages them to do harm. They only respect strength and force.

Just as rape isn't about sex, but power, armed violent crime is often about power, and the victims cannot escape harm by complying with the perp's orders.

It's always a mistake to assume somebody irrational like victimizing you will be otherwise rational in behavior.

PATH
January 4, 2003, 09:44 PM
1) fight back!

2) Use the death penalty for this type of crime or at least life imprisonment!

3) The powers that be should stop telling people to be sheep!

those are my thoughts on this matter............:banghead: :cuss: :fire:

thumbtack
January 5, 2003, 12:14 AM
I hope that the police find this guy and I hope he tries to fight them.:fire:

Beren
January 5, 2003, 12:25 AM
How easy is it to get a license for a conceal weapon in Pittsburg?

$19, a clean record, and no more than 45 days will get you a LTC in Pennsylvania.

DAL
January 5, 2003, 03:45 AM
Having a CCW is no guarantee that the same thing wouldn't have happened. The criminal got the drop on him. I'm all for good folks carrying (Vermont style--the US Constitution is all CCW we SHOULD need), but people need to understand that a gun in and of itself doesn't equal a shield against violent criminals (not that that is what some of you were saying).

Let's just hope the paralysis is temporary, not permanent, but I'm not too optimistic. Let's also hope the malefactor who did this is caught quickly and raped to death in jail.:evil:
DAL

jmbg29
January 5, 2003, 06:46 AM
Mugger Shoots Compliant Victim What a surprise!:rolleyes: :banghead:

johnhurd
January 5, 2003, 12:44 PM
The victim has changed his voting habits, for they say the definition of a Republican is.... A Democrat that hasn't been mugged yet.

El Rojo
January 5, 2003, 03:14 PM
It is fairly easy for me to reach back towards my wallet and pull out a Glock 27 instead. They are both kept in the same general area and I have to reach behind me the same to get either. That combined with my hysterical whinning of "Oh God please don't shoot me. Oh God no. Just take my wallet." might give the armed robber the idea that I am sheeple.

johnhurd
January 5, 2003, 04:32 PM
In California ain't ya, or are you just going to wound him\her?

Beren
January 5, 2003, 11:26 PM
I only hope that, put into a similar situation, I react along the same lines as another poster here has indicated:

1. Beg him not to shoot, initiate whimpering, etc.

2. Step off the line of attack while drawing my Glock 32. Fire into center of mass while continuing to move. Don't stop shooting until he's falling down, then move on to the next threat - in this particular scenario, the girl. She's an accomplice to a violent felony.

I would only hope she would obey all verbal commands and not have a weapon in hand.

3. Reload. By this time all threats should be on the ground, willingly or unwillingly.

4. Call 911, report that "There has been an attempted mugging at <location>, please send police and medical help. "

(Anyone have advice on what more to tell 911? Should it go more like:

"There has been an attempted mugging at <location> and shots were fired. Please send police and medical help. I was the victim, <brief physical description>, please notify the police that I am carrying a firearm for self-defense and that I will immediately comply with their instructions. I cannot disarm myself until they arrive as I still fear for my life and one of the mugger's accomplices is also present.")

Advice from cops, especially Pittsburgh or State Police, most welcome. What do we tell 911 to protect ourselves and the responders after a self-defense shooting?

Joe Demko
January 6, 2003, 01:18 AM
How easy is it to get a license for a conceal weapon in Pittsburg?

In Allegheny County (Pittsburgh) you need $19 cash, two forms of government issued i.d. (even a hunting license will do for one of them), two references (who will most likely not be contacted), and a clean record. They run instacheck on you, take your picture, and you walk out with your brand spanking new photo i.d. weapons permit. Whole process takes less than half an hour. The process is much the same all over PA, except possibly in Philly. Some counties still make it a two visit process, meaning they don't issue the permit on the spot, although they could. They make you come back at a later date because they have a sheriff who enjoys being a prick, in most cases.

RoyRapoport
January 6, 2003, 07:02 AM
4. Call 911, report that "There has been an attempted mugging at <location>, please send police and medical help. "

(Anyone have advice on what more to tell 911? Should it go more like:

"There has been an attempted mugging at <location> and shots were fired. Please send police and medical help. I was the victim, <brief physical description>, please notify the police that I am carrying a firearm for self-defense and that I will immediately comply with their instructions. I cannot disarm myself until they arrive as I still fear for my life and one of the mugger's accomplices is also present.")


Beren, I'd not be surprised if in many places this could get you screwed later. The standard I was taught (by Front Sight) was that you use lethal force only if you think you are at immediate risk of death or injury. I think we mostly all agree on this point.

Saying "there has been an attempted mugging and shots were fired" can sound later -- and will likely be twisted into later -- like you could have just safely backed off and just refused to give up your wallet.

I'm much more fond of the line that FS taught us. Assuming the other guy was armed with a firearm, "Hi, I'm <foo> and am at <location>. Someone just tried to attack me with a handgun and I used my gun in self-defense. He needs medical care and if he survives I would like to file criminal charges against him. I am dressed <description>." Depending on the witness situation, I'd consider actually changing "tried to attak me with a handgun" to "tried to shoot me."

Oh, and for God's sake, by the time the cops are there, if at all feasible, your gun is not in your hands. :)

Remember, you're the victim here. He initiated the violence. Make sure all your words are to that effect from moment 1. The cops and prosecutors aren't your only problem -- if he survives, he'll possibly sue you. If he dies, his family will possibly sue you

-roy

Beren
January 6, 2003, 09:08 AM
Roy,

Thanks for the feedback. This was exactly the type of advice I was searching for. Naturally I would only shoot when in reasonable fear of grave physical injury; a strange man pointing a gun at me in a parking garage qualifies, da? ;)

Would it make more sense to drop the "if he survives" part?

So, my statement would go something like this:

"Hello, this is <foo> at <location>. Someone tried to shoot me and I was forced to use my handgun in self-defense. We both need medical care and I would like to file criminal charges. I am dressed <brief description>. I will obey the officer's instructions when they arrive but I am afraid to disarm myself now as my attacker was not alone."

The medical care is for me (shock) as much as it is for the guy who just got himself shot.

Steel
January 6, 2003, 11:46 AM
He shot cause he didn't want to leave a witness

He shot because he is evil and has no fear of punishment.

"Though grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and regard not the majesty of the Lord" Isaiah 26:10

"I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless" Isaiah 13:11

El Rojo
January 6, 2003, 12:03 PM
You in a world of hurt if you do that In California ain't ya, or are you just going to wound him\her?The California Penal Code states you may defend your life with lethal force if someone is trying to murder you or commit a felony against you. Why would it be any different in California than anywhere else? The law is the law. If someone has you at gun point and is robbing you and you shoot them, the DA isn't going to waste their time on you if you are legally carrying a gun. At least not in my county they are not.

197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.

198. A bare fear of the commission of any of the offenses mentioned
in subdivisions 2 and 3 of Section 197, to prevent which homicide
may be lawfully committed, is not sufficient to justify it. But the
circumstances must be sufficient to excite the fears of a reasonable
person, and the party killing must have acted under the influence of
such fears alone.

198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew
or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.

As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant
or substantial physical injury.

199. The homicide appearing to be justifiable or excusable, the
person indicted must, upon his trial, be fully acquitted and
discharged.

And as far as the phone call, just state the facts. "A man just attempted to kill me and I shot him because I was afraid he was going to kill me. I am at such and such location. I am a male, white, 5'8", 185 pounds, red hair and beard, wearing a green Hawaiian shirt, blue jeans, have glasses and carrying a Glock 27. The person I shot is down and needs medical assistance. He is no longer armed. Please hurry." When the cops arrive, they will tell you what they want you to do. Just don't point your gun at them.

Col. Mustard
January 6, 2003, 12:23 PM
City paramedics — who could not fit their ambulance into the garage or their gurney into the elevator — wheeled Lahoff down the garage's ramp.

And this guy was on the 7th floor. Aren't there laws about making such structures accessible to emergency services? :confused:

Kentucky Rifle
January 7, 2003, 11:41 AM
I was watching one of those "reality shows" a few weeks ago that aired the hidden camera film of "Stop & Rob" type stores. The bad guy comes in and points a revolver at the female clerk and says, "Give up the money". She does and he pulls the trigger anyway, AFTER he gets the money. From three feet away, somehow the bad guy MISSES her head! However the camera clearly shows that her hair flipped back either from muzzle blast or the bullet.
I had the feeling he only wanted to kill someone to "see how it felt".
A LOT won't agree, but I think I'd draw and fire~~in other words, take my chances rather than just stand there and take a bullet to the head. Try something like El Rojo said. "Oh PLEASE don't shoot me, here's my wallet~~BANG!

KR

Beren
January 7, 2003, 01:29 PM
UPDATE: Suspect Arrested

An 18 year-old homeless man was arrested in connection with the Friday shooting of a copier repairman in a Pittsburgh parking garage. The man was scheduled to leave for military service today!

Too long to post, but a link is below. There are items in the story that will make you sick.

Oh, how he was caught? The MORON mugger was wearing his high-school sports jacket with his number on it!!

Police make arrest (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/news/s_111430.html)

sm
January 7, 2003, 01:36 PM
Agree , power rush, control.
maybe high...
I'm sober...
plan on keeping it
that way.

SoDFW Jason
January 7, 2003, 03:00 PM
What sasnofear said!!

Beren
January 7, 2003, 06:42 PM
Update II:

"The gun just went off on accident. I didn't mean to hurt that man," Armstrong told reporters as he was being taken to the county jail for processing on Monday night after his arrest.

Suspect: garage shooting an accident (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/pmupdate/s_111495.html)

SoDFW Jason
January 8, 2003, 11:58 AM
It never ceases to amaze me the disproportionate(sp) number of ADs that happen when a BG has a gun pointed at someone's head. :rolleyes:

Alliecat
March 30, 2011, 08:39 PM
I'd really like to clear some things up here. This man is my father. He is still alive, but will never move again. Those kids got that gun from soldier whom one of the boys was living with. My father was, is and will always remain a republican who belives in his, yours and suprisingly even those kids' right to bare arms. My father has never kept a gun in the house let alone on his person, in this instance i wish he had. He had no access to aphone. Had he gotten help sooner he may not have ended up as a quad, but he lay on that parking garage floor for a half an hour trying to call out for help before someone heard him. As for all of you who hope these boys ( the "female" actually was just a short boy accomplace) rot in jail for what they did: Marty got 50 years, and Lamont got 35. The shooting was for drugs, and my father only had 15 dollars. Marty's father had origanally bailed him, however let him back into police custody after he showed no remorse for what he had done. Military guns dont typically discharge on accident, the fire arm expert said it would be a one in a million chance. On the bright side, my father has surpassed the 7 years they gave him, he even ragained partial feeling to one of his arms. I do appologize for this post being many years late, but i came across it and if you've ever read a forum post about your family, you would respond to it too, no matter how late.

txhoghunter
March 30, 2011, 08:44 PM
I am very sorry to hear that this happened to your father Alliecat. But I commend his strength through all of the adversity that he has been faced with. My prayers are with y'all.

God bless your father and your family as a whole,
-tx

mustang_steve
March 30, 2011, 08:59 PM
I honestly hoped the idiot tried to standoff the police....now society has to pay for this loser to sit in a cage with his daily bread too.

JellyJar
March 31, 2011, 01:01 AM
Spy

Do you have a link for those statistics?

I would love to download them to my HD.

Thanks

JJ

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