[Newton]

I just got through watching an episode of the above show - here's a rough breakdown of what happened. This took place in Mass.

A young guy was approached when he was found sitting in a parking lot at night and the cops were suspicious of him being there.

He advised them that he was carrying a handgun and they asked him to step out of the vehicle at which point an officer disarmed him. The weapon was a Beretta 92FS carried strong side IWB, the young man had a valid CCW permit which was produced.

The usual questioning began "why do you need a gun", "I mean just look at this thing", "what if you shot someone", "what if some kids attacked you, would you shoot them" etc etc

On removing the magazine, it was found to contain 15 Black Talons (including the chambered round - I guess he didn't top off). Then the questions became more specific:

Q. "What weight are these"
A. "147 grain"
Statement - "You aren't allowed to have 147 grain bullets, that's what we use"
Statement/question (second cop) - "and these are hollow points, they only have one purpose you know, why would you want to have hollow points."
Q. "Did the box say Law Enforcement Only" (please note all you users of Winchester Ranger T)
A. No
Q. "How many more of these do you have at home"
A. "5"
Statement - "Well I'm going to take these 15 and you better hadn't shoot off the other 5 because you may need to bring those in also"

He then gave the now unloaded and useless pistol back to its owner and told him to be on his way and not drive around armed with a gun any more.

The show closed with a statement that Winchester stopped selling Black Talon ammunition to civilians in 1993 and that it was now only available for sale to law enforcement officers, so this was obviously an old show.

=====================================

Now I know this hapened in Mass., not known for being gun friendly, but I have little doubt that these incidents are not unheard of in other states, and as far as I am concerned, they represent Constitutional violations.

How would you have acted in a similar situation.

[Imaginos]

Down here the cop would probably ask me if I knew where he could get some.

In the case described, I'd probably consult an attorney the next day. Unless Mass. has a specific law against 147gr hollow point ammo like NJ does, then the cops illegally seized private property and violated the victim's civil rights.

The fact that it was caught on tape by a third-party would simply mean a more generous settlement check from the LEOs.

[1 old 0311]

A VERY LARGE percentage of LEO's are not shooters. Firearms are part of their job, but no more than a computer, or ticket book. I don't think it is a malice issue on the part of the LEO as much as a lack of knowledge.

[Newton]

I agree with Kevin, but ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it, particularly when you're the one enforcing it !!

I should have added that the foot note at the end of the show confirmed that the guy's ammunition was perfectly legal.

Therefore, the seizure was illegal, at least that's the way I see it.

[Matt King]

Stuff like this makes me glad that I live in Texas.

[Ken Rainey]

I agree with Imaginos .... a clear violation of his rights. Sad but true...unknowledgeable law enforcement officers "puttin' on a show"..... sigh....I would have advised them that I was legal and that I needed my ammunition...if they still took them, I would have consulted an attorney who specialized in civil rights. The way it played out, they, in effect, disarmed a citizen who was legally armed for his self protection and they would have been liable if he had been assaulted. He probably wasn't assaulted and therefore his case may not interest an attorney which is just in it for the money - although with it being taped and aired, they do have a solid case....his rights were violated and he does deserve justice. He may have been satisfied with the officers being suspended, reprimanded or terminated and if their "boss" was an honorable man, thats exactly what would have happened. Oh, and they would return his ammunition with a sincere apology.

And yet another good reason to keep a spare mag of FMJ, which in this case, they "might" have left with him since it wasn't what THEY considered illegal.

[Newton]

"Oh, 147 grain bullets are illegal - wait a second, I have a nail file here, give me a minute and I'll have 'em down to 146 grains and I can be on my way".

:evil:

[Devonai]

That's a very old clip, in the order of at least nine years.

[MadMercS55]

In the follow-up notes to that episode it did say something about "The ammunition confiscated was later returned after being determined not to be illegal." The initial response by the Officer did bother me in many ways. Totally ignorant Officer and borderline harassment IMO, plus unjust confiscation of that poor guy's ammunition.

[DoubleTapDrew]

Wow! What a couple of complete idiots!
I'd get their badge number and also make them escort me home in case I'm attacked before I can re-arm. Actually in that case they'd probably ransack his house as well.

Statement/question (second cop) - "and these are hollow points, they only have one purpose you know, why would you want to have hollow points."
The exact same reason you do, to stop someone that wants to kill me.

[cordex]

I agree with Kevin, but ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it, particularly when you're the one enforcing it !!
You'd think ...

One of the protections that police officers and departments have is limited legal immunity while in the course of their duties. In some ways, this is a very good thing as it protects good police from getting in trouble for minor mistakes. On the other hand, in cases like this it causes problems as it limits the recourse that a victim of police abuse might have and reduces the incentive for police to learn the laws they're trying to enforce.

The police lied about the legality of his ammunition, confiscated property that they had no legal reason to confiscate, and to top it all off they used their position of authority to attempt to stop the driver from legally carrying his handgun in the future. My guess is that they were not punished for any of these actions, and I'd be astounded if the driver got so much as an apology when he drove over to pick up his ammo. He was lucky that he got his ammo back at all.

On one occasion I was pulled over for speeding and got to deal with an officer who was ignorant of the law. The original officer told me to place my pistol on the floor by the passenger seat, had me sit on the rear bumper and called two additional officers for backup. The youngest of the two responding officers took a look at my gun and then came over to gave me flak for carrying a 1911 cocked and locked. He asked if I thought I was in compliance with Indiana state law in carrying a handgun that way, the obvious implication being that he thought it must be against the law. I ended up with nothing more than a speeding ticket that night, but I firmly believe that if some TV show had their cameras over the shoulders of those officers, I probably would've been lucky to get away with being arrested and turned loose later.

[SaxonPig]

In my experience the only people who know less about gun laws than FFLs and Post Office employees are cops in big cities. I would not allow any officer to simply confiscate my property. I would have demanded that a supervisor be summoned and if any of them actually took my ammo (or anything else) I would start by filing formal complaints against all involved and end by hiring a lawyer for the lawsuit to follow.

[ilbob]

I would not allow any officer to simply confiscate my property.

Its not as if it is optional. they are hoping you will object so they have some justification to womp on you.

I would have demanded that a supervisor be summoned and if any of them actually took my ammo (or anything else)

And they might well call for a sgt after they bust you for obstructing, resisting, or some other bogus charge.

I would start by filing formal complaints against all involved and end by hiring a lawyer for the lawsuit to follow.

Which would get you nothing, even if you could find a lawyer to take the case. By the time the reports get written and rewritten and edited, you will be a mafia crime boss or a major gun runner.

[Davo]

My friends father (an attorney) made an ass in court of the CHP guy that appears at the start of each show.

[kludge]

cordex,

curious to know how he knew you were carrying. did you tell him? did he ask?

I haven't been pulled over for speeding since I was in college (SEVERAL TIMES, 10-14 years ago) and I had a handgun permit all that time and not once did they ask about a weapon.

[Dionysusigma]

One should always have extra reloads for their CCW in the glove box.

And a Kel-Tec. :)

And six spare mags for the Kel-Tec. :D

[jamz]

Aaand this is exactly why I won't volunteer any CCW info while I am in MA, despite my MA non-resident permit, unless I absolutely have to, such as this fellow had to.

[denfoote]

I would have sued that cop and the state of Mass for so much that they would have to rename the state after me!!

[jeepmor]

Why do they think they are the only people 'qualified' to possess guns?

Like the Glock Fotay guy, "I'm the only person qualified to handle this firearm.....BOOM,,,,,ouch, I shot my foot.....

They simply think intimidation will prevail. It's a tool they need, but violating peoples rights just doesn't sit well with me. They should know more about gun rights and regs, not less than the average CCW holder. It is a part of their job, or should be, to know this stuff.

jeepmor

[c_yeager]

Noone can be an expert in all things, however I do kinda expect cops to know a lot about *either* guns or the the law. If an individual is lacking in both areas one kinda has to wonder what they actually do know about.

[30-06 lover]

To be 100% honest...I would have done exactly what I was told. Having dealt first hand with police corruption, I know how scary life can get once you take a stand against an officer or department...even when you are on the inside!
-Mike

[HankB]

Actually, I wouldn't answer any questions beyond identifying myself and producing my concealed weapon license. "Officers, my attorney tells me all the information you need is right there" while pointing to my licenses.

I certainly wouldn't resist the theft of my ammo, but my inclination would have been to dial 911 ASAP and report an armed robbery by two uniformed members of the highway patrol.

[cordex]

curious to know how he knew you were carrying. did you tell him? did he ask?
One of the first things he asked as he walked up was "Are you carrying any drugs or weapons?"
I haven't been pulled over for speeding since I was in college (SEVERAL TIMES, 10-14 years ago) and I had a handgun permit all that time and not once did they ask about a weapon.
I've been pulled over a couple of times while carrying and been in the car when a friend was pulled over while we were both carrying. I haven't always been asked, but prior to that time in the instances that the officer did ask and learned I had a gun on me, the response was a variant of "You leave your gun on your hip and I'll leave mine alone too," which always struck me as fair.

[Snarlingiron]

A VERY LARGE percentage of LEO's are not shooters. Firearms are part of their job, but no more than a computer, or ticket book. I don't think it is a malice issue on the part of the LEO as much as a lack of knowledge.

I had a conversation with a co-worker the other night. He informed me that he worked as a law enforcement officer for several years shortly after graduating from college. He said he was in it for about 3 years. He then proceeded to tell me that he sold his service pistol when his first daughter was born. Said the guy got a great deal because it only had about 50 rounds through it!!! THREE YEARS AS A LEO, AND HE FIRED 50 ROUNDS???? VERY SCARY!!

[Newton]

Unless you live in Texas or maybe Arizona, the rule of thumb appears to be that even if you have a CCW permit, you had better not let a cop catch you carrying a firearm.

You may not like it but there it is.

Cops should begin to recognize CCW permit holders as their best friend, not one of their worst enemies.

[the naked prophet]

Unless you live in Texas or maybe Arizona, the rule of thumb appears to be that even if you have a CCW permit, you had better not let a cop catch you carrying a firearm.

I don't think that's the case at all. Maybe Massachussets, California, New Jersey, etc. are that bad, but not the rest of the nation.

[redranger1]

In missouri my experiance has always been that the highway patrol are very professional about this issue and have never hasseled me once. On the other hand i cannot say the same for city and county leo. They need to learn that respect is gained by giving respect, not by self indulged arrogance.

[Mortech]

I've only been asked once by a LEO why I was carrying 12 years ago (It was a cocked and locked 1911) . I must have gotten a really funny look on my face because he apologized for asking me that question . Since then nothing but a professional behavior from the LEOs I've run acrossed .

[Logan5]

I've had the same thing happen during a stop with a cocked and locked Commander...
The Officer asked me if I had any weapons, and I handed him my permit. He asked me if I had any weapons, and I handed him my permit, returned my hands to the wheel, and started answering questions.
It went something like:
"A Colt Combat Commander, right hip, ummm, condition 1 I guess?"
"Ummm... and what would that be?"
"Cocked and locked."
About ten minutes later his supervisor pulled up behind him, and I heard the exchange.
Officer 1: "He's got a Colt cocked and locked, is he allowed to do that?"
Resident Trooper: "If his permit checked out, he can carry whatever handgun he wants however he wants to."
Officer 1: "Alright then..."

I still got a good long talking to about not flashing my high beams to alert oncoming drivers to speed traps, and that's a lesson that's stuck with me to this day. People who want to commit infractions can do so at their own risk.
Anyway...
The guy was intensively trained in state motor vehicle statutes, beyond what your average attorney would know, but was pretty much in the dark in terms of State and Federal firearms laws beyond the obvious. Supposedly that's why officers have radios, and supervisors to call on them, but you never know how it will all work out on any given night. Know the law, don't violate it, and program your attorney's number into your cell phone.

[mzmtg]

I still got a good long talking to about not flashing my high beams to alert oncoming drivers to speed traps, and that's a lesson that's stuck with me to this day.

I consider that to fall under my 1st Amendment right to free speech.

[Newton]

Flashing your high beams to warn about speed traps is illegal now ??!!??

Exactly what offence would you be charged with - obstructing a police investigation ??

There are so many laws these days, the only way you can avoid getting arrested is not to get caught

[RNB65]

I saw that title and instantly had a Junior Brown flashback! :cool:


Highway Patrol

I got a star on my car and one on my chest,
A gun on my hip and the right to arrest
I'm the guy who's the boss on this highway
So watch out what you're doin' when you're drivin' my way
If you break the law, you'll hear from me, I know
I'm a-workin' for the state, I'm The Highway Patrol

Well, you'll know me when you see me, 'cause my door's painted white,
My siren a-screamin' and my flashin' red lights
I work all day and I work all night
Just a-keepin' law and order, tryin' to do what's right
If I write you out a ticket, then you'd better drive slow
I'm just a-doin' my job, I'm The Highway Patrol

I'm the highway patrol, the highway patrol,
My hours are long, and my pay is low
But I'll do my best to keep you driving slow
I'm just a-doin' my job, I'm The Highway Patrol

If your drivin' to fast like you shouldn't do,
You can bet your boots, I'm comin' after you
If you wanna race then get on a race track,
'Cause if you try and run away I'm gonna bring ya back
I'm here to keep all the speeders driving slow
I'm just a-doin' my job, I'm The Highway Patrol

I'm the highway patrol, the highway patrol,
My hours are long, and my pay is low
But I'll do my best to keep you driving slow
I'm just a-doin' my job, I'm The Highway Patrol

I'm just a-doin' my job
I'm The Highway Patrol

[BluesBear]

I won't type the entire song but my favorite Junior Brown line is;

"I'm wanted by the Po-leece and my wife thinks you're dead."

[Jorg]

Here's someone who was charged (and found guilty) with interfering with the duties of a police officer for flashing his lights to warn other drivers:
http://www.unknownnews.net/031003cops.html

And then it was dimissed after an appeal:
http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/03/10/41877517.shtml?Element_ID=41877517

[jamz]

I won't type the entire song but my favorite Junior Brown line is;

"I'm wanted by the Po-leece and my wife thinks you're dead."

Pretty close Blues, it's:


"You're wanted by the Po-leece and my wife thinks you're dead."

:D

[pharmer]

Around here it's luck of the draw. Last two stops: OPD, night going too fast through the airport. Asked where "it" is (license has hologram for CWP). IWB 4 o'clock. "Stay put, got ticket then had nice chat about guns. Four years later FHP stop. "Where is it?" All of a sudden 2 cruisers speed in for back up. Hands on holsters. Pistol was in arm rest and not waistband. Trooper retrieves, prints out ticket, returns weapon and informs me it isn't stolen. I reply "no, really", you did a fast job taking off the grips and putting them back on. He informed me the ser# is inside the crane on a S&W. On my Model 60 there is only an assembly number there. Not a gun guy. Joe

[Newton]

A victory for the people, and I agree with the poster who said that he regarded a citation for flashing his lights as a violation of the First.

http://www.tennessean.com/local/arch...nt_ID=41877517

We have to be vigilant about this type of thing, otherwise the powers that be will go too far.

[BluesBear]

jamz, Duh I knew it was "You're" instead of "I'm" that but my fingers ain't as good as my memory. :banghead:

[Doggieman]

I got in a fight with my girlfriend once and the next day cleaned my stuff out of her apartment with three cops watching (no charges filed). Anyway I happened to own a crossbow at the time, no guns. I let the cops know about it and gave it to them while I cleaned my stuff out. This is a big crossbow mind you. One of the cops says to the cop holding it "Should we get him on CCW?" The one holding it responds, "Nah, it's not loaded."

:rolleyes:

[cbsbyte]

There is no such restrictions on bullet grain size and type in Mass. the officer is just misinformed or more likley ignorant of the law. Many cops in Mass do not know the guns laws(that's why they are police and not attorneys), especially town/city police or they have a very vague idea of them. I understand a police officer making a mistake about the Mass laws, since they are confusing and numerous. At times many will make up stuff off the top of their heads because they believe their must be law written to that affect already. This can cause all types of confusions and lead to harassament or confiscation. This can also happen in any state so be careful out there when carrying and confronted by a police officer. In many states, Mass included, during a traffic stop a person does not have to tell the police officer that they are carrying a gun. Though it might be a good idea in some cases. People also have to remember that some officers are not gun enthusiast or even care about the 2nd Ad. Many in the larger urban areas are anti citizen-ccw. When a officer comes across a citizen legaly carrying a firearm they might try to disarm them using a BS reason. I also believe the officer was hamming it up because he had a camera crew following him.

[Checkman]

In my state if an officer runs an individual's DL it automatically comes up on the computer that he or she has a CCW permit. Nothing happens. It's just for information. A permit holder means they are legally carrying. Why would anything else happen?

I guess the officer might keep it in the back of his mind that they are dealing with a person who can carry a concealed weapon legally. But then any competent officer should always figure that everyone they're dealing with could be armed. Heck when I went through the academy they told us that when at a domestic violence call to remember that there is always at least one gun present - yours.

I've seen that episode and I've seen some questionable decisions on the part of other officers on COPS. I always tell new officers that they should watch COPS to learn how not to do things out on the street. Lots of showboating going on when the cameras are running.