DPMS Panther Arms AR-15, any good?


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bang_bang
July 14, 2006, 04:29 PM
I'm interested in purchasing an AR in either .223 or .308 and not going broke in the process. The Panther Arms series of .223 and .308 AR rifles are considerably cheaper than Bushmasters, but I was wondering if they are better, or is the name Bushmaster hyped up more than they are worth. Panther Arms ranked third in the amount of AR's produced, but they were behind Colt and Bushmaster. Anyone's opinions on these rifles would be appreciated and considered.

Here you can compare the MSRP of both model rifles.http://www.dmpsinc.com
http://www.bushmaster.com

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C-grunt
July 14, 2006, 04:37 PM
I had a Bushmaster a while back and I dont think it was hyped up at all. It was a very good rifle and it never had a malfunction....though I never put it through any real abuse.

A friend of mine has the Panther and it looks like a good rifle. I never fired it but he says it is very accurate and reliable. Just looking at it and handling it, it appears to have a good fit and finish.

Jackal
July 14, 2006, 04:56 PM
The difference between Panther and Bushmaster lies in the use they are both meant for. Bushmaster generally makes rifles as Mil-Spec( with chrome lined barrel/chamber) intended for law enforcement/shtf . Panther is more of a sporting rifle geared towards hunters and target shooters. I personally own a Bushmaster mil spec 16" bbl carbine, and have been happy with tis performance. Both are good, if your not intending to go 500 rds. without cleaning, then dont worry about the chrome lined barrel. I would say: Hunting/targets-buy a Panther. Home defense/rough handling-buy Bushmaster.

jem375
July 14, 2006, 08:29 PM
I have 2 DPMS's and they are very good rifles and they also are not only for target or hunting, these are good rifles for anything including SHTF....

rangerruck
July 14, 2006, 10:23 PM
dpms is def a top five type ar producer, also they are one of the few that make them in piston drive, and not just gas blowback, which will make your ar last about 1000 times longer.

Beren
July 14, 2006, 10:39 PM
your ar last about 1000 times longer.

Have a source to cite for that claim?

A local SOT builds most of his AR-15 style rifles out of DPMS parts. They're inexpensive and they work. I'd personally consider them a "second tier" manufacturer, but wouldn't turn my nose up at one for an acceptable price.

If you buy one, it will go bang and hit paper.

mc223
July 14, 2006, 10:50 PM
I'm not going down the Ford vs. chevy road with this. IMO DPMS will NOT give you the life or pure shooting pleasure that some of the others will. And to top it all off, DPMS uses a 223 chamber which means that when cheaper than Anybody puts MIL- surplus ammo on super sale, you'll be thinking &^%$(* 223 chamber! well off to wally world and more of that wonderful $9.98 55g blue light specials.
But Hey it's your hard earned buck, Do what you want.

jem375
July 15, 2006, 12:03 AM
That's funny, my son and I both have DPMS 20" 5.56MM, of course they make 5.56MM uppers for the ar15's....I have a 20" SS bull barrel 223 and a 20" 5.56MM.....they also make other calibers....308 and etc..

lurkersince03
July 15, 2006, 12:42 AM
What? You mean to tell me that my all-factory DPMS M4-type AR can't be used for self/home defense or situations of anarchy and that I should trade it in for a Bushmaster/Colt because they're mil-spec?

With that said, get the DPMS if you can afford $700/$800 but can't afford $900/$1000 now. Then replace the upper reciever or any other part in the gun with something else later on at your own convenience. Just because you bought a gun doesn't mean it all has to stay as one single from-the-factory cohesive element. That's what aftermarket parts are for.

P0832177
July 15, 2006, 01:21 AM
There are snobs out there that will dismiss your choice of DPMS, they are just jealous because they are too uninformed! DPMS does a great deal to show their support of the shooting sports! Their customer service is pretty darn good, all guns will have their nay sayers! Buy with confidence!

DPMS has suggest using only good non-surplus ammo in their guns, but then every mfg of any guns says not to use reloads and look what happens!

Buy the gun you want with your money! DPMS will serve you well! The best thing about AR's is that there are many options! I like the mix and match idea so to speak, sort of the best of all mfg. offerings!

I have DPMS SS 24 in heavy bbl upper (factory assembled) mated to RRA lower with WOA tuned RRA NM Trigger. Bastardized, perhaps yeah! But she sure does shoot well! TAC, 75gr Hornady OTM, CCI 450, and WW brass make nice combo!

Getting down to brass tacks, pardon the pun, is the only real practical difference between 223 and 5.56 is operating pressures! But, then you are not going to war are you? And, if you were going to war the agency you work for would be buying the guns not you! Is a Chrome lined bore a good idea? You bet! Does it make the gun? Hell no!

bang_bang
July 15, 2006, 02:07 AM
Now with the .223 and 5.56 bores, could you shoot both calibers out of one bore or have to use the specified caliber. I'm looking more for a hunting rifle with some attitude. I'm really interested in a .308, but with the ammo situation I don't know how often I would be able to shoot it. Home defense in this situation is not a worry, I already have a SKS and a Dan Wesson plus a rather scary looking dog.

mc223
July 15, 2006, 03:00 AM
P0832177
"DPMS has suggest using only good non-surplus ammo in their guns".
Duh

"Getting down to brass tacks, pardon the pun, is the only real practical difference between 223 and 5.56 is operating pressures!"

There are some fine articles out there in hyperspace, please educate yourself.
bang_bang Just get what you can afford, but don"t lose DPMS customer service number, you will be calling it. And don't forget the spare parts kit.

bang_bang
July 15, 2006, 03:24 AM
From what I can find on random googled sites, the 5.56 bore will accept .223 rounds. But when the 5.56 round is fired from the .223 bore, your gun could more or less blow up. The reasons are: 1) 5.56 round is .002 longer than the .223 2) 5.56 round has a slightly steeper shoulder angle. This is a little more helpful, speaking that the modle of DPMS rilfe I'm the most interested in is chambered in 5.56.

mljdeckard
July 15, 2006, 04:58 AM
The differences between 5.56 NATO spec, and .223 spec are silly, since .223 IS the same round. It was marketed in conjunction with the invention of the AR-15. Why NATO and SAAMI specs aren't identical has always perplexed me. (Thereis a similar dilemma between 7.62 NATO and .308.) I have no idea what practical purpose it has ever served to make them different from one another.

I was an assistant armorer. Remember a couple of things. One of Murphy's laws of combat reads: "Never forget that every piece of equipment you have was made by the cheapest bidder." When I was a kid, I was under the impression that anything made to mil-spec was the best you could get. WRONG. I promise you, you will have less trouble with a Busmaster OR a DPMS than you would have with any actual issue rifle. In building a great rifle, you should not aspire to building something "just as good as what our troops carry". This is not at all a high standard.

Having said that, a chrome-plated chamber and barrel is the single-most effective feature you can have in an autoloading rifle. Note that ALL AK's (unless there is a new lower-spec import I'm not aware of) are chrome plated. The Russians understood that, if you stamp receivers, and use corrosive ammo loaded by prisoners in the gulag, (That is a joke, for those of you you who will jump on me for technical correctness,) then you must do all you can to make the rifle work consistently. Stoner's original spec for the AR used a chrome-plated chamber, and the army ignored this when they produced the rifles, and wondered why they jammed.

LoadedDrum
July 15, 2006, 06:03 AM
DPMS makes quality AR's. I know, I have two of them. As for the chamber thing, currently the bull barrels are 223 and the HBar's are 5.56.

P0832177
July 15, 2006, 11:20 AM
Hey MC223 if you have proof that DPMS is such a poor choice then prove it! Otherwise do not berate the choice! Gun Snobs abound! Till you can prove it, with pictures and communication failures on the DPMS etc. Your opinion ranks the same as any one's! Call Dustin at DPMS, he will correct any problem it you bring it to his attention! I say prove it! And, if you can not then do not make such stink!

People do shoot crappy cheap ammo, and it can be the cause of problems. For the record, I have shot 3 2700 rd tubs of SA surplus thru one DPMS upper! No problems! It all went bang, and shot pretty darn good! Ah the good ole days of 11 cent ammo!

Hey MC223 what about BM shipping guns with visibly canted FSB? Come one no one is perfect, and neither are any of us!

DPMS is good solid choice! There 308 LR is great choice for semi auto 308, and now with the 260 a really nice option! They have a good product!

Drakejake
July 15, 2006, 11:55 AM
I have been happy with my DPMS Lite. I have been firing Wolf exclusively. I had one case stuck in the chamber, probably an ammo problem, not the fault of the rifle. I suspect that current DPMS rifles are about as good as any and certainly one of the better values. I paid $639 for mine.

Drakejake

rbernie
July 15, 2006, 12:18 PM
Folks that chuck thousands upon thousands of rounds per year out of their AR might be able to tell the difference between a Colt and a DPMS. I hear that's true from some quarters, and I hear others say that Colt QA/QC is the pits.

I have had three (3) DPMS rifles. None were shot until they glowed, and none were shot with anything other than M193 surplus or handloads. They worked just fine. Nothing broke. None has/had more than 5000 rounds thru 'em, but 5000 rounds with no breakage isn't a bad record in my book for how I use 'em.

I can't say that Bushy or RRA or Armalite or Colt will be any better or worse. Most of my experieces have been with DPMS stuff. My local gunsmith likes 'em because he can build on them and they generally don't come back. I was a bit disappointed to note the MIM parts in the DPMS lower kits, until I noted that the Bushy and RRA stuff had the same MIM telltale markings. Seems to be the way it's done, these days.

As with any other product, there will always be some lemons and some that work like a house afire. I don't have any issue with DPMS at all.

mc223
July 15, 2006, 04:16 PM
IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO

My OPINION is based on my personel experiences. I have seen new bull barrels from DPMS shoot 3 shots of 5 at 100 yds scoped within an inch and then blow the other 2 out to 3 or 4 inches. I have seen others that group well and some that just do not shoot. It is this inconsistancy that is The basis of my opinion. Even when barrels are made at the same facility the finished product is manufactured to the end customers specifications. These end customer specs vary greatly. One customer may only levy the requirement of cost, so the attention to detail(such as bore straightness and concentricity of the bore to the major)will not be a part of the finished product.All products have tolerances the manufacturer should hold. If you have even a very tight tolerance of say plus or minus .0002 there is a built in product variable. Materials are fairly consistent, but once again there are tolerances, so here comes another variable to your finished product. Frankly people are people and these people who make barrels in the factory environment are just like you and I. We all have bad days. Some barrel makers are not as prone to these behaviors. Working conditions,wage paid to the grunts that are doing the work and the OH CRAP I forgot to do whatever are all factors in the end product you the consumer receives. I have opinions about DPMS,Model 1 and the Dozen or more no name slam together products that are readily available to the consumer.Most people who have these products may very well be having problems of various degrees. Honestly would you tell your buddy that the upper you just bought for 450 bucks will not shoot? You will brag about that 400yd prarie dog or A 1in. group at 200yds. You are the final step in the manufacturers food chain. I work in one of the factories in the world that makes gun parts for military applications. I do know a little about tolerancing and materials. And the variables introduced to the finished product. These are my opinions. Learn all you need to make your right choice.
Buyer Beware
I also own a White Oak Armament upper assy. When in the finalization of the ordering process, I was told by the owner that they do not use parts from DPMS because they(the parts) are junk. John Holligers opinion carries a lot of weight with me.
My bushmaster has about 1200 rounds on its 2nd barrel. 24000 rounds down the first barrel. The throat was 5/8th in. down the barrel and still grouped under 1/2in on its last outing before retirement. There is no significant wear in the upper or the lower. I can see no reason why it should not handle another 24000. Oh i forgot to mention IT HAS NEVER HAD A JAM OR A DOUBLE or any reason that i might need cutomer service.

In all of the pro DPMS threads I have not seen anything but that you have no problems. Is your DPMS really that good. Have you won a local, regional or national match. Are you poppin 300yd P-Dogs.
Yes I use a diffrent brand, but my other brand WILL outshoot your DPMS. Every time with any ammo in any weather and you can even use your best, I'll use my worst.




P0832177
DPMS is going to fix your problem. Why have a problem to fix?

Take off the rose colored glasses an do some research of your own

lurkersince03
July 15, 2006, 06:20 PM
So you're basically preaching to this dude that he should spend more money and break the bank to get a Bushmaster or Colt because of (IMO) negligable differences in what makes a functional rifle?

Yeah, I've had no problems with my DPMS. But then again I don't shoot it often. I clean it and take good care of it. I've made consistant shots at 100 yards, which is the max range I ever plan on shooting with any sort of armed interdiction (with this weapon). With a 16" barrel, it isn't what I would define as a reliable sniper rifle (even scoped). With a 20" or 24" barrel, that could change. But if you're going to hunt at over 100 yards anyway, then get a good bolt action with a good scope. My DPMS will put a man down at any range within 100 yards, and that's all the comfort I need. The same could be said for sporting/hunting purposes, but I'm not a hunter nor do I compete.

mc223, you're obviously biased here, as are we, but since he asked about DPMS in particular, I think DPMS owners are simply more qualified to comment about the product rather than a guy who took the advice of a gunsmith (no doubt influenced by prices and corporate politics like any other gunsmith out there who buys parts). And I don't mean any personal offense intended, either. Just merely perpetuating the vicious cycle of internet debating by commenting on what I see.

bang_bang, for your purposes, and for your budget, I recommend going with the DPMS. Like I said before, you can always put in aftermarket parts at your own leisure later on if you need to. I've run stock all this time without a single hitch/jam/malfunction, but as I said, I don't shoot it often and I clean my weapon after each session.

DMK
July 15, 2006, 07:58 PM
I like what mljdeckard said. Get a chrome lined barrel, unless you are looking for the absolute best accuracy, then get an SS HBAR or Bull.

I don't think DPMS makes a chrome lined barrel though (could be wrong). If it were me, I'd buy a DPMS or RRA lower, bolt/carrier and charging handle, then get a Bushmaster upper for the better barrel (chrome lining and 5.56 chamber). If you buy a flat top, save a buck or two on an RRA or DPMS carry handle. Pop the carrier and charging handle in the upper, pop the upper on the lower, push two pins, attach the carry handle,and you're ready to rock.

copaup
July 15, 2006, 08:05 PM
I've got two DPMS rifles. One is about 5 years old and the other is a year old. The older rifle did not like SB green tip ammo, but fed everything else well. The fit and finish was rough but acceptable and the only real flaw was a slightly canted front sight base that meant I had to adjust the windage on the rear sight all the way to the left to compensate. It is an easy fix, but I just havn't ever gotten around to it. My newer rifle looks much better, is fit tighter, has thus far fed everything I have fed it without a bobble, and is suprisingly accurate. My only gripe with it is that the trigger has a noticable catch in it during reset. Again, an easy enough fix, but I havn't ever gotten around to it yet. I think the newer rifles are generally much nicer than the older ones. I wouldn't hesitate to reccomend DPMS to anyone.

wally
July 15, 2006, 08:18 PM
Stoner's original spec for the AR used a chrome-plated chamber, and the army ignored this when they produced the rifles, and wondered why they jammed.

According to the History Channel's "Tales Of The Gun" series. The Army wanted a chrome chamber and bore, but McNamera's "wizz-kids" saw it as an extra expense arguing that "If it needed a chrome plated chamber Stoner would have designed it with a chrome chamber, and since he didn't design it with one, it didn't need one!". The Army's contribution to the problem was to switch from the original stick powder to ball powder for a little extra muzzle velocity. The dirtier bunring ball powder combined with the lack of a chrome plated chamber was the root of the problems. They quietly started chrome plating the chambers and switched to cleaner burning powders and now the AR has an enviable reliability record, pretty much exceeded only by the AK.

The fact that the guns were issued without cleaing kits and the initial troops recieved the guns with virturally no training for them exacerabated the problem.

--wally.

enfield
July 15, 2006, 08:20 PM
My DPMS 16" carbine in 5.56 is just dandy. I'm probably going to replace the trigger (because I've been spoiled by a Swedish Mauser), but it's a fine gun overall.

mc223
July 15, 2006, 08:52 PM
Now we get to the honesty part with fit and finish, triggers and feeding problems and canted FSBs.
If you really want a knock around rifle that may or may not go bang when you want it to, Buy the DPMS. I'm sure that if you look you will find that all mfgs have had problems. Some just seem to have more. So when someone talks about great customer service you really should ask, WHY?
If you really want the 308 all the above are multiplied due to the increased length of the upper and lower to accomadate the longer and diametrically larger 308 cartridge. Aluminum is how strong?

P0832177
July 16, 2006, 10:39 AM
If you really want a gun to go to war then get http://www.slr15.com/ but I am sure that mc223 will have an opnion about these guns, too!

Opinions are like a$$ holes everyone has one!

Every mfg has skeletons in the closet!

MC 223 obviously has such a great deal of money to spend on guns, so let him spend it! WOA is great stuff, John Holliger knows his stuff about competition and varmint rifles! Sully knows his stuff about putting your life on the line! To each his own,

But, within the confines of going to war vs playing keyboard commando well let your pocket book be your guide!

DPMS is good serviceable goods! Are there better!

jem375
July 16, 2006, 11:14 AM
Mc223...man, you are really something...I shoot XM193, Winchester Q3131A through my DPSM 223 20" SS Bull barrel and have yet to have it fall to pieces like you are inferring...as far as competition, DPMS rifles have won many competitions and if you don't believe it, there is a competition coming up at the DPMS manufacturing facility and I am sure you can enter it if you think your rifle can outshoot some of DPMS shooters there...

rbernie
July 16, 2006, 12:18 PM
If you really want a knock around rifle that may or may not go bang when you want it to, Buy the DPMS.Now that's a load of crap.

Y'know, I don't mind differences of opinion. They're good and healthy. But spreading bullscat around like this does NOBODY any favors - it scares the uninformed without teaching them anything, and it doesn't makes the writer look overly informed to those readers who's experiences span more than one product line.

Point of record - my Bushy was a lemon in so many ways there isn't enough room to list 'em all. My RRA was picky about magazines and had a horrid trigger. My Armalite worked reliably but wasn't the most accurate. My DPMS rifles have been the best of the lot in terms of being forgiving of ammo and mag differences, and being reasonably reliable. But would I say that DPMS is *better* than the others due to my experiences? No.

Look - DPMS gets their build materials from subcontract sources, same as just about everyone else. (Nobody - not Colt nor Bushy nor anyone else, makes all of the parts for their rifles themselves.) I know, thru an acquaintance, one of the DPMS receiver subcontractors and I know the QA and QC that these receivers go thru. I have reasonable faith in that subcontractor, but that's only one sub out of dozens that DPMS and others will use for their AR bits. Sometimes the asssembler (e.g. DPMS, Bushy, Colt) will get in parts from a supplier that are less then perfect, and sometimes the OEM's build QA ain't what it could be. But that's true for ANY of the big OEMS (Armalite, Bushy, Colt, DPMS, or RRA).

If I were shopping for a new AR that I was not going to build myself, I would probably shop among the big four/five for the rifle that was in the configuration I wanted. Trying to second-guess which of them has the best lot of parts at a given instant is a difficult task at best, and statistically doesn't have a huge return-on-investment for most shooters.

wally
July 16, 2006, 06:21 PM
If you really want the 308 all the above are multiplied due to the increased length of the upper and lower to accomadate the longer and diametrically larger 308 cartridge. Aluminum is how strong?

You misunderstand the real genius of Stoner's design -- its not the direct impingement gas system, which to me is clever, but not all that great since it makes the gun poop where it feeds thus requiring very clean burning powders.

The real genius is how the bolt and barrel lock up taking the reciever out of the loop for containing chamber pressures. Prior to the AR the reciever had to take the full thrust loads of the locking lugs and thus had to be very strong and durable. The AR bolt locks into the barrel leaving the reciever little to do but hold the moving parts in alignment, thus it can be aluminum or carbon fiber plastic. The original design was 7.62 NATO, the AR10.

--wally.

copaup
July 16, 2006, 07:13 PM
Hey MC223, way to take what I said out of context. It had trouble feeding ONE load, SB 62 gr with a copperwashed steel bullet. It feeds everything else, including Wolf and some less than savory surplus without issue. The front sight base was canted just enough to throw off the windage, but not enough that it could be visibly seen, or not corrected by adjusting the rear sight. It isn't a "pretty" rifle as far as fit and finish goes, but neither is anything after I've beat on it for 5 years. As far as the second rifle goes, it has never had a misfeed, regardless of ammo, has displayed remarkable accuracy, gone bang everytime I pulled the trigger, and other than the slight catch in the trigger that I could fix myself in about 15 minutes with a little polishing compound and elbow grease applied to the disconnector, has been flawless. Neither of these rifles has displayed any "problem" that couldn't be quickly fixed or that would lead me to not trust them for "serious" work. If my department would let me I would gladly replace the shotgun up front with me with EITHER of these rifles, though I'd prefer the newer one as it is a flat top and wears an EOTech.

In contrast I had a Bushmaster that's mag well was out of spec and wouldn't accept USGI mags, only Orlites. The GI mags were too tight and the mag catch was too high in the well and wouldn't lock the mag in with the bolt forward. Feeding was iffy even after they "fixed" it. Does this mean I think Bushmasters are bad guns, no, it means THAT bushie was a bad gun.

I don't think that the quality difference that would justify the $200 in price between comprable models is there between BM and DPMS and will therefore continue to reccomend DPMS to anyone looking for an AR that is reasonably priced. For those who are willing to spend significantly more money I suggest RRA or having a rifle built on parts of their choosing.

Euclidean
July 16, 2006, 07:22 PM
My Franken-AR is built on a DPMS lower. No problems. No experience with the uppers though.

Drakejake
July 16, 2006, 07:38 PM
DPMS makes such a variety of rifles that it would be hard to evaluate all on the basis of a few. Also their product has changed considerably over the years, example: apparently they started out with cast uppers and lowers and now they are forged.

Drakejake

Rabbi
July 16, 2006, 07:53 PM
My DPMS Panther was/is my first AR-15, my second is a build with mostly Bushmaster parts. I love them both.

The DPMS is in my opinion, a work of art and I'm mostly an AK-47 guy.

My DPMS trigger beats my match Bushy trigger three to one for clean break.

mc223
July 16, 2006, 08:16 PM
Now that your are all wound up,think of all that honesty of info you gave to Bang-bang.
And wally I also think Stoners original design was ingenious. The design was never an issue. It's about questionable materials used by XYZ subcontractor and the true quality controls in place. There is a big difference between it'll work and it's made to specification and there are even differences internal to the individual specification used by each of the manufacturers.

I work hard for my money and when I choose an AR-15, it will not be based on the price. It will be chosen based upon historical accuracy and potential of accuracy, proven reliability and corporate stability, features that I want, and no I really don't care if you think it is "cool".

And for jem, nothing to worry about with your MIL marked SAAMI 223 ammo.

And copaup, there was no out of context, you stated it.

This has been an interesting thread, keep it up.

Bartholomew Roberts
July 16, 2006, 11:53 PM
The manufacturer is a lot less important than the dealer you buy it from. All the manufacturers (including Colt) put out the occasional lemon. The dealer has a lot more pull than you do in getting something fixed because he buys more rifles from the manufacturer than you do. Buy an AR from a dealer who will take care of you and you won't have a problem regardless of the brand.

Personally, I am not a big fan of DPMS; but I have looked at several from Tac-Pro Shooting Center (http://www.tacproshootingcenter.com/contact.html) and wouldn't hesitate to buy any of the DPMS rifles they sell because I know that they will stand behind their product.

Cpl Punishment
July 17, 2006, 08:26 AM
People don't seem to realize that you can't compare the older DPMS rifles to their new ones. Manufacturing processes have changed, they are different rifles.

The military-style DPMS rifles (their A2 models) come with chrome0lined barrels and chambers, and are chambered in 5.56x45mm, not .223. Their target/competition guns are mostly stainless steel and not chrome lined and are chambered in .223.

The 1:8 twist rate is an option on most rifles.

FWIW, My DMPS has run perfect out of the box, and is plenty accurate. It's an A2 model HBAR, and I don't use it for benchrest, so I couldn't care is brand X shoot .25 MOA better.

Also, most people tell yuo to stick to your ABC's (Armalite, Bushmaster and Colt). Most people have added the D to that (DPMS), also RRA. I heard complaints by owners of ALL of those brands, the only one that had significantly fewer complaints was Colt. That could be that they are better overall, or the guys just paid so much more for them, they won't admit there are problems.

IMO, rifles are machines. Machines break down and some are just lemons, buy the one you like and go from there.

Onmilo
July 17, 2006, 11:20 AM
I build AR15 rifles and frankly have had better luck with small parts from DPMS than Bushmaster.
DPMS AR15 bolt carriers are much better than Bushmaster Bolt carriers.
I prefer to use Colt made bolts, expensive as they are they are the best made unless you can get ahold of a less common FN produced bolt which is just as good as the Colt bolt.

You can't say a DPMS barrel is bad unless you know exactly how it was installed.
If it was overtorqued or undertorqued to the receiver this will cause accuracy problems.
As far as I know DPMS does not produce their own barrel blanks, they purchase them from Douglas and final finish them in house.
Douglas rarely releases a bad barrel.

Bushmaster has had their own issues with incorrectly installed barrels too.

Rock River produces an excellent two stage trigger that will stand up to heavy combat type shooting.
I don't know of any match type trigger besides this one that will stand up to a lot of combat type abuse without breaking.

If the upper and lower receivers have been milled correctly and finished per Military requirements then it really doesn't matter who made them and all the manufacturers will make right on a poorly machined upper or lower.
Buy mil-spec forged and milled, do not buy the cheaper cast products, they are cheaper yes, but they just won't stand up to heavy duty use.

All manufacturers produce some really good parts.
Best Idea if you want a truely exceptional rifle is to handbuild using parts from a number of different manufacturers and suppliers.

AgentOrange
December 8, 2009, 02:09 PM
ill tell you what i find HILARIOUS......

ive owned the cheapest AR lowers money can buy, and ive owned the most expensive money ca buy....you know what i found?.....99.9% of them are virtually identical, and the quality on them is generally virtually identical. as long as the receiver is forged for strength, and everything is correct as far as fit and finish goes, what difference does it make what names on it?...my brother in law is a sergent major in the army, and a ranger. when i spoke to him about it, he told me that his guys over in iraq have a variety of different lowers on their guns, and very rarely have any issues, and they use the chit out of them as im sure you can imagine. be more attentive to the barrel and upper you buy. those are the parts that take the abuse. ive got a couple of ARs i built cheapo, one ive only got around $250 bucks in, lock stock and barrel, and believe it or not, its one of the best shooters ive got. if you want to put alot of money into something, thats up to you, but if you can put a rifle together for pennies and have it be reliable and accurate, *** is the difference?....ive seen DPMS,stag,colt and others go to ****, sometimes faster than the cheapies. if the parts you put in fit good and tight like their supposed to, and everything mates up nice and tight, i dont worry much about "brand name" stuff,cause most of the time, your paying for a name. i was a firearms dealer and gunsmith for 17 years, and theres alot of stuff as far as guns go that the publics not aware of.

as an example, (i wont mention names) there are something like 7 different brands of 1911 45 acp handguns built in the same exact factory, from the same exact parts, same quality control,ect....only difference is the name on the slide. you can put all 7 of them side by side, leave the grips off and c over the names, and you literally cant tell one from another, until you look at the price tag, and those range from around $350 bucks all the way up to near $800+, for the exact same gun........

when it comes to AR-15 rifles, like i said, as long as everything mates up and works like its supposed to, whats in a name?......also,how much are you actually going to SHOOT the gun? there was a survey done about 10 years ago ( ill see if i can find it) that discussed how many actual rounds the average civilian ran thru their AR style rifles. it showed that generally when the users got them, they were sort of a "novelty" and the average shooter put between 500 and 1500 rounds thru their AR, and then it went into the safe, closet,ect. they said that the average lifetime rounds fired the the average persons AR rifle was between 3000 and 5000 rounds ( ive been known to run 500+ thru mine at a sitting)

also, i see mention of anarchy situation, and SHTF. well, if it did, do you figure your gona be out in the middle of it, or are you going to do your damnest to get your family out of harms way? do you have the balls to be shot at and return fire?...to shoot another human being?.....believe it or not,even though most reading this will be saying to themselves, "yea, i could do it", fact is, when presented with a situation like that, a very VERY small percentage of people can actually pull the trigger. also, you see guys hording ammo, sometimes hundreds of thousands of rounds.....let me ask you this. if SHTF, what would you do with it if the bad guy landed, say 20 miles from your house and headed your way? you couldnt move it, and when you EVAC youd be leaving all that ammo for the enemy troops to use against US. alot of the time, invading forces will use the same caliber ammunition they would find in the country they are invading...why?...so they can collect ammunition and use it up on the battlefield. 223 and 308 are the most common, as well as 9mm, 40S&W and 45 acp.

put yourself together a good reliable accurate AR with a decent upper and barrel,get yourself a dozen or so good quality 20rd and/or 30rd mags ( the less ammo in the mag, the least chance of malfunctions...most magazines sold with guns, even high $$$ guns are crap) and change the followers and springs to something decent, and about 1000 rounds of good ammo thats reliable thru YOUR gun. that way, if SHTF, you can throw it all in your rig and bail. if something did happen and we were invaded, the regular joe by himself couldnt stand up and have a firefight with combat trained military personel anyway, so your be stupid to try. youd have them up your arse in one hot second with alot bigger guns than you have. believe me, i know where your coming from, and i know you want to protect your family, but some of these guys go completely overboard out there.

my advise like i said is built yourself a nice accurate rifle, get the mags and ammo, some general supplies,ectand keep them all where your can access them in a hurry if you had to bail. also, look around your area and join up with the local militia, and get some training.

wishin
December 8, 2009, 02:56 PM
And up from the grave.............

The jury is still out for me since I've only put 80 rounds through it since it was purchased recently. So far works fine, good accuracy and the price was right. I don't anticipate any problems insofar as I concur with Agentorange's overall assessment.

Quentin
December 8, 2009, 03:26 PM
And up from the grave.............

Old threads and zombies, ya just can't kill them! :D

AgentOrange
December 8, 2009, 09:35 PM
shoot quentin, maybe it takes some of us longer to ponder our responses!

BAWHAHAHAH!

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