7.62x25 vs. .357sig


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makarovnik
July 18, 2006, 03:11 AM
Does anybody have any ballistics information on the 7.62x25 tokarev round? With all the tokarevs and CZ52's out there I'm wondering how the 7.62 compares with the .357sig or .357 magnum.

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otomik
July 18, 2006, 08:19 AM
7.62mm Tokarev loads have a wide range because of it's popularity in SMGs. The Czech loadings are some of the hottest, from a CZ-52 pistol they clock 1600fps. However some 7.62mm Tokarev loads are as mild as the 7.63mm Mauser cartridge it's based on.

http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/gorge/4653/x25ammo.htm

I'm under the impression that there's not a lot of good choices in appropriate expanding .30 caliber, like a bullet designed for .30 carbine originally perhaps? I don't see much of a comparison and if you have some kind of idea of a homebrew alternative to the Five-Seven you're probably going to use SS109 bullets in a sabot right?

PzGren
July 18, 2006, 08:38 AM
If I remember correcly, Fairbarn and Sykes did a lot of research into the 7.63 Mauser during the violent times in Shanghai. Searching their files might bring something up.
I believe that they had considered it a very good round and started used different projectiles.

R127
July 18, 2006, 11:20 AM
In general the 7.62x25 from a pistol will have slightly less energy than a .357mag/sig, it will be around 200fps faster, have about half the grain weight, penetrate better, shoot flatter and not expand as much. I have read of people getting good results from bullets made for the .32acp.

If you're after a homebrew Five-Seven look into the .22 Reed Express which is a 7.62x25 necked down to .22 and there are drop-in barrels available.

Personally I find the penetration of this cartridge to be one of its main selling points, along with the flat trajectory, but only with the larger .30cal bullet. The .22 Reed Express and .223 Timbs variants definately have their place in defense or target shooting but I don't feel they're nearly as versatile as the larger bullet original. There is more than enough velocity and mass to work with to produce some excellent fragmenting or expanding bullets in addition to the currently available fmj offerings.

I'd love to see a modern fullsized doublestack combat pistol chambering the 7.62x25 and a folding stocked carbine in the same caliber using the same mags. I feel the carbine would outclass all other pistol caliber carbines in terms of outright versatility and applicability to urban defense while the pistol would be much more handy and controlable than those based on the longer and more powerful .30 carbine. The overall cartridge length is very close to that of the 10mm, and the 9mm wide case ought to feed from a 10mm magazine without too much trouble, as many .40sw magazines will reliably feed 9x19mm. It would not be hard to pull off.

In case you haven't noticed I am a huge fan of this cartridge. It has successfully unthroned the mighty .357magnum in my eyes, previously my perrenial favorite. If I just absolutely couldn't ever have the 7.62x25, the .357sig would be an acceptable alternative, but the two are so totally different it isn't the same thing at all.

Everybody and his brother makes a 1911 or AR clone, nobody is making the 7.62x25 combat pistol, though the Russians *almost* did before copping out and going with 9x19mm for their new service sidearm. I am not sure if this says more about the lack of innovation rampant amongst gun manufacturers these days, or about the sameness and dull taste on the demand side.

makarovnik
July 18, 2006, 02:24 PM
Thanks for the info guys. I guess it's not a close comparison because the bullet in the 7.62x25 is so much lighter than the .357sig or .357mag right? I'm assuming that if a heavier bullet was used then it would not get near the velocity of the .357's. I still think it could be a good round for self defense if a bigger hollowpoint was used. I think it would be great if there was a wider supply of new ammo for this caliber. Thanks again, I had no information whatsoever on the ballistics.

OldSchooler
July 19, 2006, 08:48 AM
I read somewhere that the 7.62x25 stunned those who first observed it with it's lethality - maybe they didnt have much else to go by. If youre interested, heres the history of the round, thanks to cruffler.com

http://www.cruffler.com/Features/APR-02/trivia-April02.html

MachIVshooter
July 20, 2006, 01:15 AM
7.62 Tokarev loads can develop anywhere from 300 to nearly 700 ft/lbs, but even the hottest loads do not cross the 2000 FPS threshold for real damage. In the end, they are still a handgun round and still wound by crushing and tearing. That said, the penetration capabilities of this little cartridge are phenomenal. In this regard, it will outclass nearly evey other handgun round in existance.

While I prefer my 10mm for SD, I would not feel particularly undergunned with my CZ-52 running 90 gr. XTP handloads out at just over 1,700 FPS.

coltrane679
July 20, 2006, 10:49 AM
Reed Ammo cooks up some interesting loads:

https://shop.reedsammo.com/categoryNavigationDocument.hg?categoryId=14

Or, you can go a completely different way:

http://www.qual-cart.com/223_timbs.htm

http://reedsammo.com/Page.html

I like the CZ-52 very much. Great car gun--cheap (no big $$$ loss if stolen), and I'd have more confidence in it dealing with autoglass than some other rounds.

jjohnson
July 20, 2006, 07:57 PM
Are we doing apples and oranges? The .357 SIG just isn't the same thing as the 7.62 x 25, though, come to think of it, maybe the .357 would have just enough boost to make a decent SMG round... but I digress. Let's go back to just what you had in mind. I have a couple CZ52s, and while they're ugly as sin, nobody will dispute that's a *FLAT* shooter for a pistol. Lots of us, though, kinda figure anything smaller than a 9mm is just plain underpowered for, say, a defense handgun. If you're blasting at a range or after groundhogs, the Russian round is a lot of fun. It's not a bad pick for poking holes in body armor, for that matter, if that's the idea. Thing is, your .30 cal bullets are going to be maybe 100 grains or so, while your .357s are almost always running about 20 percent heavier or more. This sort of takes us back to the ancient argument about whether it's velocity or mass that kills. I've been trying to get my (oh yes, very economical) CZ52 to group well at the range, and been disappointed so far, though I certainly get a soul-satisfying *CRACK!* :eek: when I touch off a round. If you want a good "out of the box" shooter, several very fine companies make nice modern platforms for it, and niceties like adjustable sights (don't even ask for CZ52 adjustable sights) custom grips, and all that are easy to find. For the moment, I'm waiting on bad weather so I can get around to loading 7.62 x 25, but I have enough 9mm/.40/.45 autos I really don't need the .357 - the round just doesn't fill a niche I can't overlap with something else.

yodar
July 22, 2006, 06:57 PM
Factory ammo (90 gr bullet) puts out as much as 1645 fps MV

Surplus ammo varies. Commercial ammo made by Czech firm Sellier & Bellot is made also as W/W white box

It is excellent, reloadable and typically $8.95/50 rnd box

I reload it with cast bullets and using a conservative charge of 6 gr Alliant Power Pistol get 1252 fps on chrony and it's still a loudenboomer mit spitzensparken

I am convinced if I carried it in my truck,I could shoot the perp THROUGH the door with surplus ammo

I have no 'sperience with .357 to compare but remember it's got a substantially heavier bullet

Yodar

MachIVshooter
July 22, 2006, 07:11 PM
I've been trying to get my (oh yes, very economical) CZ52 to group well at the range, and been disappointed so far

Once you get past the rotten trigger on the 52, they are tack drivers. The small sights and long radius do not lend themselves well to rapid target acquisition, but certainly enable the pistol to shoot surprisingly tight groups. Also, the design of the 52 makes the barrel and slide lock up tight. I put the accuracy of my 52 on par with most 1911's I've shot. Fit and finish on the other hand...............

For gun folks, I refer to the 52 as a cross between a VP-70 and a PPK. For non-gun people, I tell them to think of a horseshoe crab with a trigger.

yodar
July 22, 2006, 07:13 PM
JJ

There is a chance you can get adjustable sites on that CZ

Parker Machine and manufacturing is run by a class whatever ATF licensed gunsmith and builder - He is in Pennsylvanai and has no website

He specializes in com-block arms and his CZ52 work was what was used for the basis of an article in SHOTGUN NEWS mebbe a year ago

He does good work, rebuilds AK-type guns with more advanced fasteners (I think) and other high tech strengthening and lightening features.

I dont know how to get ahold of him but I am confident he could cut it to fit and paint it to match for sights of your choice on the CZ 52

Yodar

Dr.Rob
July 22, 2006, 07:31 PM
Biggest problem with the cartridge is a lack of ergonomoic firearms chambered in it.

Face it the CZ and the T-33 both have a near 90 degree grip angle and odd controls. If CZ made a modern gun like the CZ75 in 7.62 Tok I'm sure you'd see more modern loadings.

makarovnik
July 22, 2006, 09:14 PM
I think you're right about the ergonomics. I own a TT33 Polish Tok and you can tell these pistols were designed to be shot the old fasioned way - with one hand. I can actually shoot the TT33 very well with a two-handed hold. The pistol is EXTREMELY accurate otherwise I would have gotten rid of it a long time ago. It's also very slim. It's slimmer than a 1911A1 and it's also slimmer than a Makarov or Walther PPK. I wish I would have bought more than two. I would like to own about five of these sexy little beasts. It has a pretty well designed aftermarket safety (required for import) just behind the trigger. It's not the awkward type on the chinese ones. I don't use the safety, I usually keep the chamber empty and practice racking the slide on presentation. If I did carry one in the chamber I would use the half-cock feature. That was the original safety and it's all you really need IMHO. Thanks for all the great info on ammo and ballistics.

old_ironsights
July 22, 2006, 09:35 PM
Barrel length is a factor in all calibers.

I carry a .357 Sig that is a Kel Tec P-11 conversion. It's the best compromise that I could come up with.

The CZ-52 is an artillery piece.
The Tokerov is slender and light with a decent barrel length. The "safety" is anything but and the sights are an afterthought.
10mm is synonymous with .40 S&W unless you search out full loads.

Odd Job
July 23, 2006, 05:52 AM
@ Coltrane679

Thanks for the info. I am contacting Reeds Ammunition in the hope of being able to buy a selection of Tokarev bullets for my research here in London. I have a case in my file where a guy was hit with a steel-cored Tokarev bullet (probably a S&B variety) and the radiological appearances of the projectile fragments and insert were initially puzzling.
So I want to get samples to be sectioned for a presentation.
(If anyone here has Tokarev bullets they are willing to sell me, please PM me. If the bullets are pulled from cartridges, I pay for the whole cartridge).

Buck Nekkid
July 23, 2006, 03:39 PM
Howdy!

Well there is a pistol, in current production, that chambers this hot rod round. I'm not sure you can call it "modern", but check out the Zastava Model 57 and the Model 57 Lux.

Since I cain't read Yugoslavian,I'm not sure what all the details are, but it is kinda cool lookin'

The_Shootist
July 23, 2006, 11:20 PM
...and no - you don't have to read Serbian :evil:

The Model 57 is kinda cool looking. I have a Model 70 (ie .32ACP calibre) and its a pretty rugged gun. I use it as my truck gun.


http://www.zastava-arms.co.yu/english/civilni.htm

sgphoto
July 23, 2006, 11:54 PM
I shot some of the 7.62 x 25 Reed 100 gr. Hornady XTP HP ammo yesterday. For comparison, I shot the Romanian surplus ( I believe it's 85 gr).

The closest comparison I can make without a chrono is that the Romanian was like a .38 special target wadcutter and the Reed was like the hottest .357 you could load. Incredible blast of fire and recoil seemed twice the norm.

At 15 yards the Romanian group was about 3.5". The Reed was less than 2".

Very good stuff. About 18.00 a box of fifty.

Reed's also recommends the ammo only be shot with the stronger Wolff spring 18.5(which I had). It also says the ammo is only for the CZ52.

I'd love to see the numbers for this ammo. If you want to see your CZ52 breathe fire and belch like the demons from hell, this is the stuff.

coltrane679
July 24, 2006, 04:10 PM
I second the Reed ammo recommendation. That is my defensive load. Huge firepower out of a $140 gun.

the naked prophet
July 24, 2006, 06:59 PM
Maybe a 10mm Glock conversion barrel with a new longer-clawed extractor as well?

That would probably be a great gun, 17 rounds of 7.62x25 firepower in a service-sized gun.

Reed1911
July 25, 2006, 02:26 PM
Thank you for the recommendations guys, we try our best to please.

We do have loads for both the CZ-52 and the TT-33 from 60g up to 110g.
The .22 Reed Express project is in full swing and two new loads have been added, a 50g V-Max and 45g XTP.

We are also having test barrels made for the 7.62x25 for the 1911 and 92 series, provided that goes well the .22 Reed Express barrels will follow.

coltrane679
July 25, 2006, 03:41 PM
Oh, man--7.62 1911s? Who will make mags that work?

Reed1911
July 25, 2006, 05:34 PM
That is the complicated part of the equation, what it looks like will happen is the caliber will have a slight name change to account for the shorter OAL and any possible load and pressure changes, we don't want any fools taking off the shelf X25 and just deep seating the bullets to run in the mags. Right now our standard HP loads will work fine in the .38 Super mags. The idea right now, is proof the idea and then play with a few different models of pistols. I'd REALLY like to be able to use a double stack mag in .38 Super for the project, think 15-18 rounds of the "to be named cartridge" (7.62x25 short) running a 90g HP at 1650-1700FPS:what:

Mmmmmm

Boarhunter
July 25, 2006, 06:00 PM
"I'd REALLY like to be able to use a double stack mag in .38 Super for the project, think 15-18 rounds of the "to be named cartridge" (7.62x25 short) running a 90g HP at 1650-1700FPS."

Reed1911,

I am starting to "tingle"!

Boarhunter

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