45ACP penetration


PDA






max popenker
August 2, 2011, 05:50 AM
Does anybody here have any reliable penetration data for .45 cal M1911 ball ammo, when fired from m1911 pistol and any subgun (M1928, M1, M3), against pine wood and/or Ww2 era steel helmets, for example?

there is an old argument here, stemmed by memoirs of the Soviet Ww2 vet, who was issued a lend-lease Tommy gun. He test-fired it and .45cal bullet was unable to penetrate a wooden handle of a standard shovel :cuss:
He then fired at same from his 7,62 Tokarev pistol, penetrated the target, and discarded the Tommy-gun as heavy and weak and thus useless weapon

I have serious doubs in this story, but cannot prove it wrong with hard facts, as I live in Russia where .45 cal weapons are inacessible to general public

Maybe someone can shed some light on the issue, or, better still, shoot some objects from his/her .45ACP hand- and long guns (subgun or carbine, doesn't matter) with ball / FMJ ammo, and post results

Even better, is fomeone can make some quick and dirty comparative penetration test for 9x19 Luger, .45ACP and, if possible, 7,62x25 Tok

Thanks in advance for any info and help

If you enjoyed reading about "45ACP penetration" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
ObsidianOne
August 2, 2011, 07:30 AM
Just go to YouTube and search for a comparison. I found dozens.
I assure you, a .45 may be a slow moving round and may lose a very decent amount of velocity if obstructed (i.e. I once shot at an empty plastic lighter fluid container, hit the dirty in front of it and it penetrated one side, and remained intact in the container instead of exiting), but it is very potent and would be capable of penetrating a shovel handle, lol.

CHEVELLE427
August 2, 2011, 07:39 AM
MANY YEARS AGO we were at a dump site and someone had dumped some toilets.

we had 9mm, 45acp and 44mag hand guns

i shot a toilet with the 9mm it broke and fell apart :scrutiny:
i shot one with a 45acp it also broke but it more like busted up into pieces,:what:
i then shot one with my 44 mag it just blew apart.:eek:
not quite what you were looking for but that day i lost faith in a 9mm and have not owned one again till just this year,
(new ammo new light weight guns high cap mags makes 9mm look better.)

1911 45acp has been strong for 100 years now so there must be something to it.:neener:

i carry a 45acp and also have the same gun in 9 and 40sw

think of it like this .
you got hit with a moped it is gonna hurt
you get hit with a truck it is gonna hurt more

9mm looks good because of the massive fire power it has now days 18+1 is a lot,;):eek:
but if you can get the job done with 7-13 rounds of 45acp :rolleyes:

dexter
August 2, 2011, 07:46 AM
google ( box o' truth) you mite find what your looking for.

MtnCreek
August 2, 2011, 09:18 AM
there is an old argument here, stemmed by memoirs of the Soviet Ww2 vet, who was issued a lend-lease Tommy gun. He test-fired it and .45cal bullet was unable to penetrate a wooden handle of a standard shovel
He then fired at same from his 7,62 Tokarev pistol, penetrated the target, and discarded the Tommy-gun as heavy and weak and thus useless weapon
There’s also stories about russian troops taking German light fixtures with them back to russia and then wondering why the lights don’t come on when they flip on the switch………….

barnetmill
August 2, 2011, 09:32 AM
In pine wood boards my one test of military FMJ is that the 9mm luger out penetrates the .45 ACP. But that has almost nothing to do with my decision to switch from the 1911 to the G19. Both rounds require multiple hits on an armed assailant to incapacitate an armed assailant. I know that is heresy for most here. Neither the 9 or .45 come anywhere close to say .30 cal rifles. Not my intention to start a caliber war.
The .45 ACP is a good combat round.
Comparing a .45 ACP penetration to a 7.6x25 will have a steel core Tokarev winning most contests. There is a difference in pistols between 800 and 1450 fps relative to penetration.

ofitg
August 2, 2011, 11:58 AM
The Marshall/Sanow book, Handgun Stopping Power, lists penetration of various handgun rounds against 1/2-inch plywood. The .45 ACP 230 FMJ penetrated 5.6 sheets of plywood. The list did not include data for the 7.62x25 cartridge.
As barnetmill noted in the above post, the 9mm does a good job against wood - the 9mm 123 FMJ penetrated 8.8 sheets of plywood, better than any other load listed in the Marshall/Sanow tests.

The 7.62x25 has a reputation for penetrating body armor better than the .45 ACP, so I suspect that the 7.62x25 would be superior against wood and other common obstacles.

481
August 2, 2011, 12:07 PM
In pine wood boards my one test of military FMJ is that the 9mm luger out penetrates the .45 ACP. But that has almost nothing to do with my decision to switch from the 1911 to the G19. Both rounds require multiple hits on an armed assailant to incapacitate an armed assailant. I know that is heresy for most here. Neither the 9 or .45 come anywhere close to say .30 cal rifles. Not my intention to start a caliber war.
The .45 ACP is a good combat round.
Comparing a .45 ACP penetration to a 7.6x25 will have a steel core Tokarev winning most contests. There is a difference in pistols between 800 and 1450 fps relative to penetration.

IIRC, wasn't there a test of the .45 ACP 230 gr. FMJ @ 800 fps in which it penetrated 6 inches of white pine boards?

I believe that Wikipedia may have some of M&S penetration data for FMJs in human bodies, too. Just gotta look at the correct caliber.

Overkilll0084
August 2, 2011, 12:24 PM
Maybe a stupid question. Why would one use a shovel handle as a metric of firearm performance? I would think that a Russian soldier in WW2 would have no end of enemy soldiers on which to do real world testing.
Call Mythbusters.

Old krow
August 2, 2011, 12:31 PM
google ( box o' truth) you mite find what your looking for.

Agreed. Box O' Truth has some side by side tests of common handgun calibers. Most that I remember were shooting solid structures, i.e. mock up walls and such.

rfwobbly
August 2, 2011, 01:43 PM
It's probably already been tested and videoed on a web site called "The Box O Truth".

This is what retired test engineers do with too much time and too many guns. :D

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Dazen
August 2, 2011, 02:03 PM
Here is a link where he was shooting a Kevlar Helmet with pistol rounds. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

That guy sure does know how to enjoy a day shooting !

gym
August 2, 2011, 02:45 PM
To a degree it would make sense with plywood. As the 9mm makes a smaller hole making it easier to penetrate a solid brittle object, where the 45 is a larger diameter projectile travelling at a slower speed. The energy of the diameter would tend to slow down the larger heavied bullett unless you had more speed behind it.But flesh is different, the larger round at speeds in the 800fps range will still do more damage because of size, and distances we are deaing with"diameter of the bullett. It's like shooting a needle and a pencil and shooting the needle at a higher rate of speed, it will penetrate further because there is less drag, but the pensil will do more damage until you extrapolate for distance. At some point the heavier weight of whatever bullett will cause it to loose it's effectivness just because it ran out of gas.
To me this is just simple deduction, I don't claim in any way to be a ballistics knowledable handgunner.

lemaymiami
August 3, 2011, 07:44 PM
Here's a real world penetration example for the .45... The weapon was a Sig Sauer, the round was fired into a car door at a range of about three feet. The round penetrated door, glass, the front car seat (on the diagonal, descending, roughly 8 to 10"), and the man who was sitting there. The bullet transitted his chest cavity from left to right almost entirely, taking out the aorta as it passed through the torso. Most of us used Speer Gold Dot hollow points at the time so I'm pretty sure that was the round in play.

The young officer involved was very shaken up since all he was trying to do was arrest a guy stealing a car (subject was in a surveilled parking lot and was observed during the entire incident). What appeared to be a large handgun (night time, poorly lit parking lot) in his hand as he turned toward the officer turned out to be a large socket wrench that he was using to break out the ignition lock. It was a very bad scene although absolutely justified by all who reviewed the incident. On the plus side the shootee had a long criminal history - and for a month or two we didn't have one car theft in our city (one of 27 different cities in Dade county, the Miami area).

By the way I'd suppose that issues about handgun round penetration are very serious business the farther north you go. Down here in paradise there's seldom much, if anything between your skin and any bullets....

Burt Blade
August 3, 2011, 11:03 PM
Wood penetration data is very handy if you expect to be confronted by a PCP-hopped Pinocchio. :neener:

But society frowns on systematically collecting, shall we say, "highly relistic" terminal ballistics data.

suemarkp
August 4, 2011, 01:31 AM
As others have said, the 7.62x25 is a good penetrator both against armor and solid surfaces. One depends more on energy and the other on momentum. That value applied against the frontal area of the bullet determines penetration. What this means is given 3 cartridges with similar energy and momentum values, the smaller caliber penetrates more. But it also makes a smaller hole so it could be less effective.

I think a piece of hard wood, and definitely the helmet, will depend more on energy than momentum. The 7.62, 9mm, and 45 have very similar energy levels.

TenMillimaster
August 4, 2011, 04:43 AM
No clue if soviet tokarev ammunition back then was steel core, but quite a lot of surplus tokarev ammunition is steel cored, which would definitely fare better than lead cored ammunition in terms of penetration.

BBQLS1
August 4, 2011, 10:11 AM
7.62x25 was also used in many sub guns like the ppsh41. Some of the ammo has the energy of .357 Mag. Combine that with a steel core.... watchout!

JustinJ
August 4, 2011, 11:29 AM
max popenker: "I have serious doubs in this story, but cannot prove it wrong with hard facts, as I live in Russia where .45 cal weapons are inacessible to general public"

Aren't all firearms inaccessible to the general public in Russia?

What part of Russia are you in?

max popenker
August 4, 2011, 11:35 AM
Aren't all firearms inaccessible to the general public in Russia?

Not all.
Shotguns are mostly Ok, rifles are more restricted but also Ok
privately owned handguns or pistol-caliber carbines - no way :(
Full-auto - no way.

What part of Russia are you in?
North-West ;) To be specific, Saint-Petersburg

TenMillimaster
August 4, 2011, 12:31 PM
If I was a soviet, I'd cut open a 7.62x25 and a .45ACP and see what I was shooting and how much it weighed... I'd take heavier and lead over lighter and steel because steel cores don't expand nearly as well. Less wounding ability.

SlamFire1
August 4, 2011, 12:47 PM
In my youth, I worked with a lady who fled East Germany before the wall came up.

I donít know if she was physically assaulted by Russians, but it was possible, regardless she did not have a high regard for them. Basically considered them uncivilized, uneducated brutes.

The only example I remember is her describing Russians washing/peeling potatoes in the toilet.

And that is where that Soviet Vet story should go. In the toilet.

Won't penetrate a shovel handle: Bosh!

max popenker
August 4, 2011, 04:28 PM
I don’t know if she was physically assaulted by Russians, but it was possible, regardless she did not have a high regard for them. Basically considered them uncivilized, uneducated brutes.
Well, I can assure you that there were no love lost between Russians and Germans when Russians came to Germany in 1945

I'm not vouching for what happened after the 1945 in eastern Europe (I'm not a big fan of Communism in general and its Soviet version in particular), but in 1945 Germans surely got what they deserved for during 1941-45 timeframe.

Nushif
August 4, 2011, 04:38 PM
[...] but in 1945 Germans surely got what they deserved for during 1941-45 timeframe.

Let's hope nobody ever judges us as a nation quite as harshly as you just judged the Germans.
Let's also not go any deeper into this nationalistic and borderline political direction. Please?

JustinJ
August 4, 2011, 04:46 PM
"I don’t know if she was physically assaulted by Russians, but it was possible, regardless she did not have a high regard for them. Basically considered them uncivilized, uneducated brutes."

So she agreed with Hitler? And that has what to do with firearms?

hermannr
August 4, 2011, 04:51 PM
I own a CZ52 in 7.62X25mm. It is one heck of a round. I have no doubt it would penetrate anything more than a .45, given comparable FMJ ammo. The hottest commercial ammo for the 7.62 I have found for it so far is 1700fps and 507flb... even with teh 45's big heavy bullet, it cannot match those numbers.

Now, is the 7.62 a better SD round than a .45? (when using FMJ ammo, which I won't use for SD)

I'm not so sure as I am more concerned with over penetration, rather than not enough, when it comes to the 7.62X25mm. It's like a flash/bang going off when you pull the trigger. If you don't disable the BG, he will probably leave to change his underware.

RON in PA
August 5, 2011, 05:18 AM
Sometime just after WW2 the US Army tested the 9mm P-38 against the 45 ACP 1911 as to their ability too penetrate small trees, helmets and sand bags. The 9mm was always superior in penetration.

amd6547
August 5, 2011, 05:39 AM
Agrees with Max re:Germans got what they deserved.

memphisjim
August 5, 2011, 05:56 AM
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=16086
45 wont penetrate helmet at 50 yards

gym
August 5, 2011, 11:34 AM
I was looking at cor-bon and hornadays websites yesterday and there are some pretty fast 45plus rounds on there. Some were over the 100-1200 ft per sec threshold the powerball is 1225fps, the new hornaday critical defense is no slouch either. My thoughts on that over 1200fps ammo is, there isn't enough information on it but they are getting the speed of the old 800 fps, way past those older technology rounds. On top of which if you look at the technology on their website, the bulletts are designer rounds, really you can pick a round for your specific application. They change the hardness on the tip on the honaday stuff depending on the caliber and use. I think that in the next year you will see an even more improved 45 round.

If you enjoyed reading about "45ACP penetration" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!