atf bust in nashville this week


PDA






taliv
July 20, 2006, 10:18 PM
sorry if this has been posted before, but i searched and couldn't find it, which surprised me since so many Tennesseans are on this board.

link (http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060720/NEWS01/607200378/1006/NEWS)

MT. JULIET

Local and federal law enforcement officials arrested a Mt. Juliet man Tuesday after confiscating at his house 20 guns, a marijuana-growing operation, components of a methamphetamine lab and a potentially hazardous substance that couldn't be identified, they said.

J.E. Duncan, 53, of Paradise Drive was charged with two counts of possession of an explosive weapon, two counts of possession of a prohibited weapon, one count of marijuana manufacturing, one count of criminal attempt to manufacture methamphetamine and one count of felony possession of drug paraphernalia.


Duncan was held briefly at the Wilson County Jail before being released on a $16,500 bond. City police, agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the 15th Judicial Drug Task Force and the Tennessee Highway Patrol's bomb squad executed a search warrant at Duncan's house about 3:30 p.m. Tuesday. Part of his neighborhood was cordoned off Tuesday night and police said they took material out of his house.

Authorities said they were tipped off by a report that suspicious photographs of possibly explosive materials and items such as a rocket-propelled grenade launcher had been dropped off for processing.

Sgt. Edward Cherry, commander of the THP bomb squad, said his unit disposed of a small amount of chemicals they believed to be nitric and sulfuric acid using an explosive charge.

"We suspect that he was using potassium chlorate to mix his own flash powder, which is another name for gunpowder," Cherry said.

NATALIA MIELCZAREK AND IAN KRIEGISH

i don't watch the news, but i heard some friends talking about seeing this guy on the news a couple times over the past two days giving the ATF and metro down the road. He (a USMC vet) claims (again, this is 3rd hand knowledge) that the rocket launcher was a model he made from PVC and not functional or ever intended to be a weapon.

Did anybody see him on TV?

also, "small amounts of nitric and sulfuric acid" are basic chemistry set kind of things that aren't hard to come by or dispose of. Why in the world would the BOMB SQUAD use an explosive charge to dispose of them? wouldn't that just scatter them around???

This has Fahreinheit 451 written all over it. Bomb Squads come to your house to blow up common chemicals rather than dispose of bombs?

"We suspect that he was using potassium chlorate to mix his own flash powder, which is another name for gunpowder," Cherry said

yeah? let us know when he does something ILLEGAL.

confiscating at his house 20 guns, a marijuana-growing operation, components of a methamphetamine lab and a potentially hazardous substance that couldn't be identified, they said.

20 guns?? OMG!
"marijuana-growing operation" sounds suspiciously like grow-lights with no actual weed present.
90% of people have the components of a meth lab in their house.
wouldn't ANY unknown substance be potentially hazardous? why confiscate it?


It seems to be that the solution to the ATF and LEO's tarnished images is simple: A photocopy of the search warrant should accompany every news story.

If you enjoyed reading about "atf bust in nashville this week" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
NukemJim
July 21, 2006, 12:32 AM
flash powder, which is another name for gunpowder

Wrong.

I can sorta kinda understand the writers falling for the BS but why oh why do these idiots feel the need to spout such garbage ? I truly do not understand.

NukemJim

Third_Rail
July 21, 2006, 01:11 AM
So.... all they have is that he was growing MJ? Nothing else they've mentioned is illegal, near as I can tell.


WHY is the BATFE involved in the DEA's jurisdictions?

DMF
July 21, 2006, 01:23 AM
So.... all they have is that he was growing MJ? Nothing else they've mentioned is illegal, near as I can tell.


WHY is the BATFE involved in the DEA's jurisdictions?You must have missed these two items, " . . . charged with two counts of possession of an explosive weapon, two counts of possession of a prohibited weapon . . ." That sounds like some things that are definitely in ATF's jurisdiction.

aryfrosty
July 21, 2006, 01:25 AM
You know if you tickle a rattlesnake you'll probably be nailed. If this podunk moron was growing marijuana...and nothing about the phrase "growing operation" says ANYTHING about grow lights and no pot...you might reasonably expect to attract attention. Looks to me as if this idiot was sorta running up to the lion's cage yelling, "bite me". Don't know about his guns. Don't know about his "flash powder". PVC rocket launcher "not meant to be used" and marijuana growing operation tells me all I personally want to know. Lock his dumb butt up and get him OFF the streets.
People like us need to recognize that idiots like this one are costing us freedoms every time they open their stupid mouths. I see no reason to stand up for a moron like this guy and I refuse to let anyone as stupid as he is stand up for anything I have.:fire:

Third_Rail
July 21, 2006, 01:31 AM
I don't see what he did that injured you, your property, or anyone else's. Why should what he allegedly did be illegal, anyway?


If anything, his actions stood up for your freedoms that you now speak out against.

aryfrosty
July 21, 2006, 01:59 AM
If you don't see, I can't show you. I stand, however, by what I said about that guy being too stupid to breathe good air. I don't need...I don't want...and I won't tolerate anything someone like that does and says that "defends my freedoms".
What did he do to injure me?
He exists... in a world where people aren't bound by decency or restraint. His actions injure me. They make unenlightened people look at gun nuts like I am and say, "they're all like that". These danged liberals will never defeat us. They don't have to as long as we have folks like that guy in our camp. By turning the other cheek and saying, "Ain't none of my bid'ness", we encourage trash like him.
He has no right to be free to promote his agenda. He has no right to grow, sell or use pot.
I lost a cherished son to drugs, starting with grass, and he began by getting it free from "freedom-loving" nimrods like this guy you want to stand up for. Now my child is serving life without parole in Tennessee. I am sorry you can't see the danger in these people. That's your business. I don't care to try to change you, but no matter who I see pushing any kind of dope I promise I will rat them out in a New York second. And I hope they don't like it. I realize what I have said may hurt your feelings. I sincerely apologize for that. I try hard to keep from saying things which are crude or offensive. But I do NOT tolerate illegal drugs, their sale or use in any way. And they're one brush that paints your whole life and that of all of your family if you accomodate them.

Third_Rail
July 21, 2006, 11:27 AM
I can see that you are quite set in that viewpoint; we must agree to disagree. :)

Baba Louie
July 21, 2006, 11:52 AM
So when the federal gov't makes (some) gun ownership illegal, like they did marijuana back in the 20's/30's and they make ownership of sharp, pointy knives illegal, like they did beer back in 1919, and when they prohibit tobacco products, or use thereof, the world, or at least the USA, will be a better place and anyone caught using any of those now-illegal objects will be sent to prison and villified by all good law-abiding citizens as terrorists or hooligans or maybe just neuvo criminals to be ratted out by their neighborhood photo-lab, children or disgruntled ex-spouse. :uhoh:

Freedom? :barf:

Liberty? :scrutiny:

Incarceration. :cool:

It's for your own good. :)

And don't you forget it. :confused:

Like my dear old departed Daddy useta say, "Ride wid da law little Baba Louie, not agin' it. It can jump up and bite you on de butt."

If one is going to dally with things illegal, one should not be taking photos for potential public dissemination, neh?

Doh! Darwin strikes again.

taliv
July 21, 2006, 12:21 PM
again, i heard this all 3rd hand, so i don't claim to know any facts about what's actually going on here...

but it seems that taking pictures of a pvc model you made of a rocket launcher is appreciably shy of dalying with things illegal.


it sounds to me, again, like what happened is some photomart clerk called the police because his model looked realistic. they got a warrant which probably only lists the rocket launcher.

when they discovered the rocket launcher was in fact a piece of pvc and some spray paint, they decided to save face by raiding his medicine cabinet and his 20 guns.


it sounds like the only stupid thing he did was using film instead of a digital camera.

Phetro
July 21, 2006, 12:27 PM
Local and federal law enforcement officials arrested a Mt. Juliet man Tuesday after confiscating at his house 20 guns,

(Probably legally owned)

a marijuana-growing operation,

(one plant)

components of a methamphetamine lab

(an empty glass jar and a food scale)

and a potentially hazardous substance that couldn't be identified,

(Agent 1: "What's this?"

Agent 2: "Probably table salt, seeing as it was in the salt shaker--whatever it is, let's just call it 'potentially hazardous' and book him for it!")

they said.

Does anyone in America really believe what Big Brother and Big Media tell them to believe? Yes. Depressing, but awfully funny...

Phetro
July 21, 2006, 12:36 PM
People like us need to recognize that idiots like this one are costing us freedoms every time they open their stupid mouths. I see no reason to stand up for a moron like this guy and I refuse to let anyone as stupid as he is stand up for anything I have.

Correction: people like YOU need to recognize that people like you are costing us freedoms every time you open your mouths and advocate unconstitutional laws, and the enforcement of the same, by agencies that shouldn't exist in the first place.

READ THE CONSTITUTION, SIR. Please.

espanola
July 21, 2006, 01:11 PM
Taliv, there is some conflicting info on this. The info I have comes from news broadcasts on WSMV channel 4 in Nashville.

The report said Mr. Duncan had some photos processed of some items that concerned the photo tech and the photo tech called police.
Mr. Duncan called his homemade items "his toys" and said they were just things he'd homemade as part of a hobby and were non-functioning. The THP say they were functional.
I know the pictures of the items they showed looked like an RPG launcher and an RPG. There were even some electrical wires visible on the launcher. For the brief time they showed the items on the news broadcast it looked very realistic...

Maybe more will come out soon.

buzz_knox
July 21, 2006, 01:24 PM
Here's a fun excercise for us all. Take a list of components used in drug manufacture, or items which constitute drug paraphenalia. Take said list and start marking off items in your home that are on the list. Stop when you have most of the list checked off and you are sweating a knock on the door, despite having never used illicit drugs in your life.

hso
July 21, 2006, 01:26 PM
The ATF field agents often run with the drug guys because large quantities of firearms are often found with meth busts (this from the mouth of an ATF field agent who was investigating a fire at a project I was on).

As to the equipment and components mentioned in the article, nothing that can't be explained by a fireworks hobbyist or by a bomb maker. The problem is that many of the same chemicals are used in the manufacture of both. Any of you guys see the episode of Mythbusters where they made gun cotton with nitric in the attempt to build a rocket?

Pot production? Well it depends upon what that equipment actually was and no one's come up with any details.

It's idiotic and premature to condemn or support this guy since there's not enough information in the article for anyone except a psychic to make sense of.

buzz_knox
July 21, 2006, 01:28 PM
It's idiotic and premature to condemn or support this guy since there's not enough information in the article for anyone except a psychic to make sense of.

True enough. But it is an interesting excercise in the demonstration of prejudices and personal bias.

Third_Rail
July 21, 2006, 01:42 PM
buzz_knox, hso, you guys are right on.

I can list literally DOZENS of primary and secondary high explosives that I can make with just chemicals in my home - nevermind what's down at CVS and HomeDepot. Of course, each and every one of these chemicals has a normal place in the home, from acetone and hydrogen peroxide, to muriatic acid and solid fuel tablets (for camping). Not to mention that I also dabbled in fireworks a while back, so I have all of those chemicals too.

As to the "MJ growing operation", I suppose I could get busted for that, too. I only grow flowers and such indoors, which is why I have the grow lights, but the exact same setup could be used to grow MJ and other illicits. :rolleyes:


My wife and I played a fun game last night - count how many things around the house could be federal felonies, if I were to be already "bad" in the eyes of the law. We counted 11 in about five minutes. At that point, we weren't sure whether to laugh or cry, but we've both lost faith in the gov't saying what is good, what is bad.


Do note that I would never break any law, nor manufacture anything illegal, nor commit any crime. I am an upstanding citizen, if a worried one.

v8fbird
July 21, 2006, 04:20 PM
"I lost a cherished son to drugs, starting with grass, and he began by getting it free from "freedom-loving" nimrods like this guy you want to stand up for. Now my child is serving life without parole in Tennessee."

If you had lost him to a crazed gunman, would you be on here arguing against our 2nd amendment rights?

"That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant."

Just because your son made the wrong decisions does not mean that other individuals should not have the same opportunities to make the same decisions. In fact, any semblance of a free society dictates it.

aryfrosty
July 21, 2006, 05:08 PM
There is no reasonable justification for using illegal drugs. It is reprehensible to choose a case to have as a cause celebre because the man had guns. In the analogy of one gentleman I could cause myself to hate cars since a relative died in one. Or we could lobby against airplanes because one crashed and people died in it. In the Bible we can read that we are all admonished to obey laws set by those above us. We also see that the Bible refers to two kinds of law...The letter of the law which brings death, or the spirit of the law which gives life. If any among us wish to wage war against police or established law we had better make good friends with the burglars, robbers and rapists...Oh, and don't forget dope dealers.... then we need to work within the structure to get legislators in office who agree with our feelings. The statement above about the spirit of the law was variously use by both Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson. Owing guns is a right guarnteed by the Bill of Rights. It's worth every fight we enter to preserve it.
NOWHERE in the United States Constitution or the Bill of Rights is found the "right" or the privilige or otherwise to smoke dope or use or deal in any other illegal drugs. Nowhere! You guys who believe people have a "right granted by God to disobey the laws" are perverting the spirit of the law to suit your personal agenda.
For the gentleman who pointed out to me that because my child made a bad decision let me add this. He made it while under the influence of illegal drugs. He started with pot and progressed upward from there.
Indulge me further please: You accused me of being in error when I judged the dope dealer/smoker...remember that? Yet when I posted a note saying that my son was in prison you made the illogical leap from there to, "he made a bad decision." Yet you don't know what he did...whether it was a bad choice or a lifestyle. What reason do you have for deciding that and denying me the privilege of doing the same?
What will you all do when the moron who was growing pot is tried by a group of his peers and is found guilty? Will you continue to support him simply because he liked guns? Again I neither want nor need his support. I would not accept his support. He has made his own lack of good sense well known and I don't want him within a city block of me at any time.
Regards to all of you,

v8fbird
July 21, 2006, 05:26 PM
"There is no reasonable justification for using illegal drugs."

Tell that to the man (can't remember his name) who is rotting in a California jail after having been EXTRADITED since having FLED to Canada JUST to be able to smoke pot to combat the pain brought on by his cancer. He's now in pain AND in jail.

"NOWHERE in the United States Constitution or the Bill of Rights is found the "right" or the privilige or otherwise to smoke dope or use or deal in any other illegal drugs."

That's your fundamental mistake in logic and theory. You see human rights as only those things guaranteed to us in the Constitution. You believe in only that freedom that was written on some stupid piece of paper. There is no logical basis for that position.

Nowhere does the Constitution say that the government DOES have the right to regulate drugs. And all powers not SPECIFICALLY granted to government was at least SUPPOSED to be reserved to the people and to the states.

"In the Bible we can read that we are all admonished to obey laws set by those above us."

You have GOT to be kidding me. Please provide me a passage for that. And don't give me the "give unto caesar" line. That statement is SIMPLY NOT TRUE.


"Indulge me further please: You accused me of being in error when I judged the dope dealer/smoker...remember that? Yet when I posted a note saying that my son was in prison you made the illogical leap from there to, "he made a bad decision." Yet you don't know what he did...whether it was a bad choice or a lifestyle. What reason do you have for deciding that and denying me the privilege of doing the same?"

I'm a pretty intelligent fella, but I have absolutely no clue what that means. Your son made a bad choice to do drugs. Are you arguing that? So far as I'm concerned, if his "crimes" didn't involve hurting anyone or infringing on their natural rights, he should be a free man.




Do you think that gambling, alcohol and prostitution should be illegal? How about homosexuality? Smoking? Eating too much? How about not sending your children to public schools and letting them play too many video games?

Anything you make illegal you have to enforce at the POINT OF A GUN.

Are you honestly ready to point that gun at ME and tell me I can't drink or smoke simply because your son made a bad choice at one point in his life?

bruss01
July 21, 2006, 05:31 PM
There is no reasonable justification for using illegal drugs.

Then comes the inevitable argument about why some drugs are legal (like coffee, tobacco and alcohol) and some aren't (like marijuana). What's the difference? I dunno, the only reason I can see is that the guys who wrote the law said so. Just words on paper, nothing more.

Sorry you had a bad experience regarding your son. I'm truly saddened to hear of your heartache. You could blame "drugs" but is that where the problem really lies? Is it the weapon or the thug wielding it that is dangerous? People make choices, not all of them turn out well. Such is life.

Look at how many lives have been ruined by health consequences from tobacco, or from alcohol, and they're still legal. Why? I dunno, but I think a lot of people would be upset if they were suddenly declared verbotten. Didn't that happen once - I think it was called Prohibition? It didn't work out too well because people still drank and it made the criminals rich. We're doing the same thing with your so-called "illegal drugs". People still take them, and it makes the criminals rich.

Personally, I have no use for drugs aside from my morning coffee and an occasional 12 year old single malt scotch, but others feel differently. And if all we're doing is putting harmless people in jail and creating a huge rights and privacy-devouring juggernaut in a false attempt to put a lid on it, then we're deciving ourselves if we think it's ultimately doing more good than harm.

cassandrasdaddy
July 21, 2006, 05:34 PM
pursuit of happiness ring a bell? didn't jefferson grow hemp?

DoubleTapDrew
July 21, 2006, 05:41 PM
If the commander of the BOMB SQUAD doesn't even know the difference between gunpowder and flash powder then all the reloaders in that county are in a heap of trouble. Try loading a round with flash powder and see what happens. I'll just stand behind this brick wall over here while you fire...
If the guy was growing pot and making meth then I'm glad he got busted (although the article doesn't state any of either substance was recovered and components of those "operations" or "labs" do have other legit uses. Usually they state XX number of plants and XX grams of meth were seized, etc).

Otherguy Overby
July 21, 2006, 05:48 PM
Drug law is similar to gun law in that it was first based on fear, predjudice and a sensational media to gain popular approval.

Gun law was sold on the premise it would keep guns out of the hands of freed slaves. The first opium prohibition in the country was to keep opium from Chinese in San Francisco because they might take advantage of white woman who then might use opium. Marijuana laws were founded on fears that Mexicans would take advantage of white women under the influence... Can we all say "Reefer Madness"?

Prior to 1900 it was generally accepted that a person had the right to injest, inject or whatever anything he desired. They then used a tax strategy to make it "illegal" and the 1934 NFA act was just another itteration of the same.

Euclidean
July 21, 2006, 05:56 PM
Personally, even if this man is guilty of everything they accuse him of and they can prove it, I still see very little I would send him to prison for were I on the jury. Has he stolen anything or hurt anybody?

I'm not sympathetic to people who ruin their lives with substance abuse, but that's just it: this man is not a sympathetic figure. My first honest to God thought was "He sounds like scum", implying I'm better than him somehow based on what I read.

What a terrible attitude to have. I think this stinks like a fish and is a potential example of the ATF's many abuses.

aryfrosty
July 21, 2006, 06:00 PM
Otherguy...the insistant reason for outlawing illict drugs and making others very hard to obtain legally is one I listed earlier. When people lose all inhibitions under the influence they make choice that hurt or kill others. Those among us who are walking the path toward life have a right to be free from intimidation. I don't care who invented what where drug and gun laws are concerned. If you think drugs don't hurt people other than the users and sellers consider this: Walk into a crappy flat where mom and dad are cooking a little crank and toddlers are all over the room they're cooking in. Those labs are many times dangerous, yet the little kids aren't able to choose where they live and what they breathe.
Go into a front porch and watch mom, dad or grandma stuff their stash into the diaper of an infant.
Partner that isn't hysteria or prejudice. It is, rather, public safety.

Third_Rail
July 21, 2006, 06:01 PM
aryfrosty, I suggest we also outlaw caffeine, alcohol, and any substance containing either.

gunsmith
July 21, 2006, 06:01 PM
How many good kids have had their lives ruined because they smoked a joint?
I bet a lot!
I lost a security clearance because at 17 I admitted to a drill SGT that I had tried marijuana, my whole career gone because I had smoked a little pot months before thinking of joing the Army!

I think all drugs are stupid and you shouldn't use them, but destroying millions of young men and women can't be the solution.

The Taliban chopped off the hands of drug users and China might execute you for their use.

These are not the people to emulate!

I've had to bury family members due to their legal drug use (nicotine)
I myself used marijuana to quit ciggs and now my only "drug" use is coffee and tea...no ...I don't smoke pot and now, I hate it and can not tolerate to be around pot users, or drunks, or smokers or speed freaks...any drug users save coffee drinkers.

As far as I can glean from the typical stupid ill informed article, the guy is being railroaded.

Euclidean
July 21, 2006, 06:04 PM
Besides all that, he's accused of growing MJ not consuming it in public.

I'll agree that the misuse of drugs which could cause harm to others should be criminalized (such as drunk driving) but honestly if someone sits in a room alone somewhere and consumes this crap, yeah that's awful and they shouldn't do that, but the idea that it should be illegal is ludicrous.

You can't enforce it, for starters. You shouldn't have a law you can't enforce.

gunsmith
July 21, 2006, 06:14 PM
I know a beautiful blonde 21 year old Christian gal who is selling her body, cheap, to support her drug addiction.

If it was legal she could afford the 10 a day instead of the 200 a day it cost.

By insisting on keeping drugs illegal you are supporting all kninds of criminal
enterprises and creating a new generation of Kennedys...

Kennedys got their wealth from bootlegging....

Criminals love drug laws, as do pedophiles...lets keep the black market going!:barf:

aryfrosty
July 21, 2006, 06:16 PM
Your man sitting in a California jail is indeed sad. Have you ever heard of Morphine Sulfate? I have been a hospice volunteer for years and I have not witnessed on Ca patient who can't manage their pain with legal meds.
Oh, and fled to Canada and was extradited? Sounds like Canada didn't another pot head in their country any more that Americans do.
Human rights. Interesting you should bring that into play. That's the same BS used by the UN to try to govern America. One world, under them...
Guaranteed rights are protected by the founding documents. Other than that, we have never signed off on or voted on laws putting us under the mantle of the UN's one world government. The human rights pap is what insists that prisoners of war are entitled to instant civil rights and have to be tried by a jury of their peers only after some idiotic judge decides which court has jurisdiction.
You want the keep "Big Brother" out of the equation by saying the feds have no right to make laws governing us. What about that? Governed by governments. That is what they do, guys.
One bad news item for the moron who was growing dope is that after 36 years every drug case I've seen personally has been at the state level. I was always aware that the big kids like DEA had mandates for the cases they made. Likely 9 out of 10 cases were local charges.

aryfrosty
July 21, 2006, 06:25 PM
Gunsmith I agree with you a hundred %.
I firmly believe that if enough people band together they can influence legislators to the degree that they work to change the law. It seems a lot like getting the cart before the horse. So long as it is against federal, state and local laws and ordinances the the pot smokers need to do without. Everybody seems to be swinging all around the principle that gets my personal goat. The smokers and users create much pain and heartache. Using drugs which can cause a person to become addicted or even simply habituated has an terrible impact on countless people who don't smoke pot. Families are forced apart by a member's dope habit. The users rob and murder...often their own familiy...to get the money for the next fix.

Art Eatman
July 21, 2006, 09:03 PM
We have beat the subject of good/bad/indifferent WOD plumb to death, and that horse is still dead.

Drug laws as they are do indeed exist, and that's harsh reality.

So: Stay near the subject of DEA/ATF and "paraphenalia" and the ramifications thereof...

:), Art

taliv
July 21, 2006, 10:49 PM
actually, i was hoping you'd close it. the only thing worse than a moderator closing an interesting thread, is leaving one gone astray open :)

gaston_45
July 21, 2006, 11:34 PM
Ary, you have GOT to be kidding!!!!

"Your man sitting in a California jail is indeed sad. Have you ever heard of Morphine Sulfate?"

So you are advocating giving him one of the most addictive substances on earth, one that is easy to overdose and die from, to replace one that is not physiologically addictive and has no known death causing dose???????

That my friend is beyond stupid.

DMF
July 22, 2006, 12:43 AM
The bleating about common household items being drug paraphernalia is quite amusing.

Let me give you an example of how it really works. If someone has a couple of clean glass tubes approximately 4 to 5 inches long, they are not drug paraphernalia. However, if those tubes are charred and covered in crack residue they are drug paraphernalia. The difference is painfully obvious to anyone who has actually had to determine what is a crack pipe and what isn't.

The same is true of a grow op. Merely having the equipment to grow plants is not a marijuana grow op. Having that equipment along with marijuana plants and seeds is a marijuana grow op. Again, it's painfully obvious to anyone who has actually dealt with this issue.

Components of a meth lab is the same deal. Merely having some the items that are often used in meth production is not enough to say someone has the components of a meth lab, it's how those items are being used. Again, painfully obvious to those who have experience with this.

Finally, the real determination is when all the evidence and testimony is presented to a jury, and the jury makes a determination of fact concerning whether or not the items are, "drug paraphernalia," "a marijuana grow op," and/or "components of a meth lab." Remember, probable cause is what is required for a warrant, and seizure of evidence, but proof beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury is what is required to get a conviction.

Anyway as someone else said, "It's idiotic and premature to condemn or support this guy since there's not enough information in the article for anyone except a psychic to make sense of."

cassandrasdaddy
July 22, 2006, 01:00 AM
we had 300 very suspicious tomatoe plants taken here in a predawn raid complete with battering ram and entry from balcony by a swat team was reported as a grow op took 6 weeks for cops to tuck tail. never did admit they screwed up but they did settle outa court . funny thing was if they had fixed the door and said they were sorry jerry would let it go. but they circled the wagons about it. cost em a quarter mill that way.

aryfrosty
July 22, 2006, 01:05 AM
Since we hope the drug agents are as knowledgeable as you and have your standards for exclusion versus inclusion of circumstances it is to be hoped for, also, that if the person was charged with drug charges it wasn't over a couple of lights and pans. Having said that, if seeds are seized and they germinate the possession of marijuana charges will follow. I am acting from personal bias against this guy, since I know nothing of him. I assure you that I would never sit quietly as a pool member in jury selection at his trial/s because I would not give such as the aforementioned person a fair hearing. But when it comes down to expressing my opinion I do claim freedom. I also don't challenge the arrestee as much as I challenge the members of this forum who insist the person has a "human right" to promote dope because it doesn't "hurt anyone".
The illicit narcotics market is one driven by weakness and self indulgence. It hurts anyone close to a user or seller. That guy may be innocent, but this forum is a place for opinions and I have mine just as all others here do.

gaston_45
July 22, 2006, 01:20 AM
Once again ary, no one is promoting drug use, we just don't think it's apropriate to promote taking people's freedom of choice when it harms no one but themselves.

Bill St. Clair
July 22, 2006, 06:57 AM
aryfrosty said (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2577721&postcount=19):
Owning guns is a right guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. It's worth every fight we enter to preserve it.

NOWHERE in the United States Constitution or the Bill of Rights is found the "right" or the privilege or otherwise to smoke dope or use or deal in any other illegal drugs. Nowhere! You guys who believe people have a "right granted by God to disobey the laws" are perverting the spirit of the law to suit your personal agenda.

I could argue with lots of the rest of this drug stuff, but we'll just continue to talk past each other, so why bother. But this is the kernel of the problem.

The United States government was created to preserve individal liberty. That is the only reason it exists. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."

Yes, I realize that the Declaration of Independence is not the law of the land. But it is the spirit of the law of the land, the reason the United States exist.

Liberty means that you and I may do anything we desire. Anything. As long as we do not directly infringe on the liberty of another. The government exists to help control infringements when they happen. Unfortunately, it has become the largest infringer, morphing into a huge mechanism to protect us from ourselves, to try to prevent us from making mistakes instead of allowing us to learn from them, to enforce the majority morality.

The Bill of Rights is important. It states in very plain language, places that government legislation may not go. It's somewhat of a dead letter today, since they've not only gone there, they've built a super highway through the area. What the Bill of Rights is not, however, as elucidated by the Ninth Amendment, is an inclusive list of our rights. It's the other way around. The Constitution is an inclusive list of the government's powers. Anything not explicitly stated there is not their business. They may not restrict our liberty, ever, in any way, unless the Constitution gives permission.

The several states each has its own constitution. I won't discuss state laws here, since that would take a very long time, and since I'm not familiar with most of them. So the rest of this post concerns the federal Constitition and the powers of the federal government.

Show me the place in the U.S. Constitution where the government is given the authority to create new crimes. There are a handful of crimes mentioned in the Constitution. That's all they get.

Show me where the U.S. government is given the power to prohibit possession of anything. It's not there. They used to know this. Prohibition of alcohol was done as a Constitutional amendment because that's the only way it could be done. Legally. The original marijuana prohibition was done as a stamp tax, on interstate commerce. The same for machine guns and short barreled rifles and shotguns. The original law was a transfer tax. The taxes were made large, in the money of the time, to make it difficult for most people to afford. But they only applied to transfers across state lines, because even a liberal reading of the Constitution allows only that, and even that was stretching the Commerce Clause.

Nowadays, the Commerce Clause has been stretched and pulled like salt water taffy. It's become so elastic that it permits anything the feds want to do. The same elasticity that allows them to prohibit drugs will allow them, and not too long from now, to send their goons from house to house to take away our guns.

Note that I don't recommend ingesting psychoactive substances. Been there. Done that. Learned better. If somebody commits an actual crime, hurts somebody or steals their property, under the influence of drugs, arrest him, throw the book at him. But not because he was high. That's nobody's business. Because he directly infringed on another's liberty without their consent.

The natural consequences of drug abuse are severe and appropriate. We need nothing else. And the government has no authority to provide it.

Molon Labe
July 22, 2006, 07:32 AM
NOWHERE in the United States Constitution or the Bill of Rights is found the "right" or the privilige or otherwise to smoke dope or use or deal in any other illegal drugs. Nowhere!Apparently you're not familiar with the 9th Amendment.

DoubleTapDrew
July 23, 2006, 01:49 PM
Wow Bill St. Clair nailed it.
The gov't doesn't tell us what we can do and neither does the constitution, it just limits their powers.
I don't think anyone here is advocating the use of drugs. We are concerned about the abuse of power. Power WE the people have GIVEN to these people in the government. They aren't divine beings, and they put their pants on one leg at a time in the morning like like everyone else. We don't like them using the position we granted them with to trample our rights.

v8fbird
July 23, 2006, 03:16 PM
Bill St. Clair,

That's basically what I believe too, except for the part about the Bill of Rights being important.

I actually don't like the Bill of Rights, for the simple reason that when you lay out ten principles, then come along dimwits (no names) who think that they are the ONLY ten principles that apply. "If it's not in the Constitution, you don't have the right." Sort of like saying that "if you just obey the ten commandments, you're going to be ok with God."

Baba Louie
July 23, 2006, 03:35 PM
...who think that they are the ONLY ten principles that apply. "If it's not in the Constitution, you don't have the right." Sort of like saying that "if you just obey the ten commandments, you're going to be ok with God." Yeah, they always forget this one, like Molon said.
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Not to mention this one...
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

So if your state desires to suppress it's citizens rights to rub something funny into your bellybutton... it USED to be A-OK.
But then the Fed out-trumped the various state's rights and never really liked the idea of the people having (some) rights without them making some money off it (somebody's gotta pay for Congressional shopping sprees)... and some things never will change, I guess.
Now, if only our Supreme Court Justices (not to mention our Congress) would actually read the darned thing and apply it...

xd9fan
July 23, 2006, 10:24 PM
Third rail stop fighten american socialism. Gone are the days of having a right to be left alone.

(and I dont even smoke.....anything......ok jerky...but damn it....its good)

oops!
July 23, 2006, 11:09 PM
1. the medical profession's obsession with morphine simply amazes me. I've watched what it has done to my father. I bet a couple of hits off a joint wouldn't have left him a babbling invalid.

2. Boy! Didn't this thread make a record breaking turn.

3. Amen Bill!

Funny, I started out a middle of the road Republican. Now I keep hoping for a conversion of a big name player into a viable Libertarian candidate ( not holding my breath).

You know, untold dollars are spent putting a warning sign on gasoline pumps, telling you not to drink gasoline.

I think if you want to drink gasoline, drink it, no skin off my butt.

The Drew
July 23, 2006, 11:42 PM
Aryfrosty is no different than sarah brady and all the other MMM's who have had tragedy strike their lives... They need to blame, but since they can't wrap their minds around who is REALLY responsible for their tragedy, they blame the inanimate object... For Aryfrosty it is the drugs, and the faceless "pushers" who got his kid hooked...

So since these people have been touched by tragedy... they intend to keep that same tragedy from happening to others, by further limiting the freedoms the rest of us enjoy... Thanks, but no thanks, I'll take my chances with tragedy and come out a stronger person because of it....

aryfrosty
July 24, 2006, 01:40 AM
I don't think of myself as a Brady type. I also don't think of myself as against freedoms. I also don't think that any of you have any sort of freedom to do as you please when the results hurt other people.
But...I've been wrong before.
Like I was wrong in thinking that this forum was about guns...Boy did I miss that guess.
It's about apologizing for drug users and their ilk. Any of you who think that drug sales and use are "victimless" crimes are really out of touch with life. If you can't see what you're espousing then I certainly have no desire to show you. Not that you'd listen. In addition to taking up for druggies you also have clearly shown that civil liberties are the property of only those who think as you do. No room for dissent here.
Good luck

Diomed
July 24, 2006, 03:05 AM
I also don't think that any of you have any sort of freedom to do as you please when the results hurt other people.

I think most people will agree with this statement. I love the old line about swinging fists and tips of noses. Where they disagree is in the matter of whether smoking a joint, or drinking a beer, or shooting a gun constitutes hurting other people.

If you do any of those three examples irresponsibly, then yes, someone else can get hurt. And that outcome is the sole responsibility of the person who made the conscious choice to engage in those activities. It is wrong to prevent people from doing something because they might act irresponsibly. If they're irresponsible, they, as adults, have no place in civilized society.

Bill St. Clair
July 24, 2006, 03:21 AM
Anti-gunners act as if they believe guns have a mind of their own. That guns kill people all by themselves, or that they force anybody who owns one to use it for pre-emptive violence. We know better.

Drug warriors think that drugs have a mind of their own. That drugs inject themselves into people's veins, or burn themselves and force their smoke into people's lungs. That drug users are helpless to resist them. We should know better.

The behavior of both gun owners and drug users is completely voluntary. Every bullet is fired because the gun user points the gun and pulls the trigger. Every toke of pot or drag on a cigarette or injection of heroin or drink of alcohol is taken intentionally by the drug user. The gun user is not compelled by the gun to do anything. Neither is the drug user compelled by the drug.

The difference is that when a gun is abused, some person other than the gun owner is directly harmed. When a drug is abused, only the drug user himself is directly harmed.

Addiction is a myth. Yes, people become attached to all sorts of things. And the immature among us imagine those attachments to be compelling, to be somehow a property of the object of addiction. In reality, addiction is a property of the addict. And only an internal change in the addict can cure it. Remove the object of addiction and the addict will find another. Allow the addiction to play out and the addict will learn or die. Most learn. If this world has any purpose at all, that learning is a big part of it.

Drug prohibition and gun prohibition are products of the same mindset. The mindset that believes that we the people are the property of the state That the state must protect its property. At any cost. If we do nothing when they come for the drug users, we should expect no help when they come for the gun owners.

mikelost
July 28, 2006, 08:26 PM
I happen to be the brother in law of this gentleman charged with all these crimes against humanity and the only thing Jay is guilty of is bad judgement.One hears about how the news and police get ahold of something and runs with it all the time and I guess one assumes that its always the other guy that it happens to.

This guy is very intelligent and loves to tinker with things and being ex-military I guess when your doing it on the job its okay but god forbid if your disabled and have alot of down time that you continue to play around with toys as he calls it.

Being somewhat of an insider to what happened I could certainly expound on a few things in here but rest assured,all that was pictured on the news was certainly a mock up and in totally unworkable condition.So he had a few pot plants,he has suffered with a bad back for over 20 years and if it helps him,more power to him. Any kid with a chemistry set in their house could be accused of having a so called meth-lab.

It bothers me that some people seem only to lower themselves to call him names that you would hear coming from kids on a playground.A podunk or idiot he is not.It seems the one with the biggest mouth has a kid who is serving a life sentance,,well what kind of loser are you that you let that happen to your own child,obviously you failed somewhere.

Anyways,I like what the one person said about walking around their house and taking stock of what you have and considering what could possibly land you in jail.Here is another little tidbit,the only way they were able to get a search warrant was because on the same roll of film they had pictures of their house and a legible house number in it.Sooooooooo thinking of that ,one could go out and with a 35 mm camera take a few pictures of an rpg and maybe some bomb looking thing off the internet..pull up in front on someone's house that you might have a gripe with ..take a few pictures of their house.Include the maibox and for extra effect,a picture of a car in the drive way with a legible tag number..put their name and address on the envelope and drop it off at the local store and guess what.

<Edited by Art for paragraphing>

Coldblue
August 4, 2006, 07:54 PM
I have read all of the statements about this man, Mr. Duncan, who happens to be my neighbor. I do not know him very well, but I believe he has been railroaded by the ATF and local, county and state police.

First off I can't believe that any cop would be such an idiot to believe that picture of a model rpg was real! I didn't realize that models, scale models and any kind of non-firing weapon was illegal. The only thing his model may have fired might have been a potato (looked like a fancy looking potato gun to me). I don't believe potato guns are illegal.

"He had 20 firearms" So what! It's his right to own them. Almost everyone I know has guns, none of them have ever killed anyone with them. I have been around guns all of my life, both of my grandfathers were in WWII and both of them made sure to teach me from a very young age about how to properly handle and maintain rifles, shotguns, pistols, black powder rifles, etc.

I am a gun owner, I got my first .22 rifle when I was 10, and a 20 gauge shotgun for hunting quail, dove, rabbits and squirrels. Hmmm whats so wrong about that? Even if he had military weapons...so what? I'd say being a USMC vet would make him plenty qualified to own any weapon he wanted. (I guess the atf thinks it was ok for him to have weapons when he was defending OUR freedom, but not now?) Gimmie a break.

"A possible meth lab" B.S. He probably owns a coleman stove just like 95% of everyone else. And maybe he's like me and has allergies. Therefore you may have meds for those allergies. I can relate to his back pain because I've lived with degenerative disc disease for quite a few years. I've had surgery a few times and was told I had spinal cord damage that may never heal and would likely have more surgery. I was also told the severe pain I have to deal with on a daily basis would probably never get better. I know for a fact that meds don't always help. Everyones body is different and after being on perscription pain killers for years, they work less effectively over time eventually getting to where they do nothing (or very little) to help the pain.

If he had a small amount of pot that he used for pain.....SO WHAT! He wasn't selling it or giving it to children. Just so you know Montel Williams and Neil Cavuto both have back diseases and they use perscribed marijuana for their pain because they both said it was the only thing that helped and that they had tried all other pain management options. I have this to say about them blowing up an "unknown substance": It was done somewhere nearby because it shook my whole house. When I say shook I mean the dishes, pictures and everything else shook. It really woke me up, so I went out and made sure everything and everyone was ok and that mine or my neighbor's house was not on fire.

What really amazes me is that they blew up an "unknown substance" right in the middle of many neighborhoods. Brilliant! <Art's Grammaw edited> If they did'nt know what it was they would have never blown the stuff up and risked a cloud of "unknown" vapor to drift throughout our neighborhood. Then again I don't give to much credit to big brother (especially around here) for being overly bright. I think they botched this one badly and decided to make a big "boom" to help them save face.

I hope my neighbor comes out of this deal ok. Because I know how the gov. works sometimes.....They mess up.....you pay the price because none of them want to admit that they were morons and could'nt tell the differance between a toy and a real rpg. And the police want you to depend on them for your safety? It's no wonder everyone who has any brains has a gun (or more) to defend their family from the "bad guys".

halfmile
August 4, 2006, 08:33 PM
Mrs. winslow's soothing serup. good for colicky babies, rheumatizm, & many other disorders. Active ingredient: Morphine sulphate(lheroin).
Used and blessed by the whole country.

How about Coca-Cola? took them a few years to remove the cocaine derivative.

Of curse now that full employment in the legal and correctional divisions of our government depends on demonizing almost everything that can't be taxed, You can bet there will soon be EEG stations all around the country to make wure you haven't been meditating or other dangerous unamerican activities.

PFFFT!

HM

oldfart
August 4, 2006, 11:53 PM
"Remove the object of addiction and the addict will find another."

I believe this statement is key. We all know weak people. Sometimes they're people we really love but that doesn't change the fact that they are basically weak. Many of these people will become addicted to hard drugs, MJ or even cigarettes and liquor. I have a daughter who is addicted to almost all of the above. She's 47 years old and I expect to outlive her. I think Aryfrosty and I both have drawn a short straw with regard to some of our kids. Fortunately, I have others that have turned our quite well, one can only hope Aryfrosty does too.
I don't use drugs except for those I get at the pharmacy, but I really don't care if others do. Even my daughter. She's old enough to make her own mistakes... and pay for them too. The drugs she takes are not the problem. The problem is her lack of willpower and low self-esteem. It might be that I am responsible for that, but how to explain the other kids who are doing so well?
Darwin exposed us to 'survival of the fittest' but he didn't tell us about all the ramifications. To be "fit" in today's world one must be strong morally as well as physically. Not all of us are qualify in either column.
Sorry about your son Aryfrosty. He may have met my daughter at some time or other.

Brett Bellmore
August 5, 2006, 09:02 AM
The big boom is a standard technique: If you or I do it, it's called "destruction of evidence."

After all, once they've blown the stuff up, the jury has to take their word for what the stuff was, don't they?

DRZinn
August 5, 2006, 10:28 AM
What did he do to injure me?
He exists...Thank you for summing up so succinctly the attitude of a statist.

Welcome to my ignore list.

Gunfire
August 5, 2006, 04:23 PM
One hears about how the news and police get ahold of something and runs with it all the time and I guess one assumes that its always the other guy that it happens to.

You know why Prohibition was repealed? It wasn't because the politicians realized and/or cared that it was infringing on Freedom. It was Jury Nullification. We have the jury box when the ballot box doesn't work.

The wod, wot and the war on the 2A are nothing but a war on the People and their inalienable rights and Freedoms.

We have a tool they can't take away to force the repeal of unjust and oppressive law. Jury Nullification, use it!

BryanP
August 5, 2006, 04:48 PM
Here's a local TV news story about it, with a link to video:

http://www.wsmv.com/news/9543099/detail.html

And here's the alleged model/rocket launcher:

http://www.wsmv.com/2006/0719/9544918_320X240.jpg

hammer4nc
August 5, 2006, 05:04 PM
Y'all ought to click on the link above, and watch the video...it shows some of the "rockets", and a few words of explanation from the "suspect". He got narced on by the local photomat guy who processed pics of his mock-ups. Judge for yourself.

My take, this guy has about as much to do with meth as my grandmother. I made better "rocket launchers", and play rifles for our war games, when I was about 9 years old.

He admits to medical marijuana. Big whoop.

Let the demonization begin. What a typical waste of enforcement resources. I'm wondering how far this will continue spinning before a judge laughs it out of court. More likely, he'll accept a plea deal to make it go away (and ATF can avoid being embarrassed).

If you enjoyed reading about "atf bust in nashville this week" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!