police confiscate 'cop killer' gun in Far rockaway


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gunsmith
July 22, 2006, 03:21 AM
http://www.timesledger.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16952861&BRD=2676&PAG=461&dept_id=573700&rfi=6

police confiscate 'cop killer' gun in Far rockaway
By:Stephen Stirling
07/21/2006

Police in Far Rockaway arrested and charged three youths with criminal possession of a weapon Wednesday after a search of their home yielded a powerful type of handgun that has been responsible for more than two-thirds of police officer deaths since 1994, according to the Queens district attorney.


Police executed a court-authorized raid of the home of William Davis, 21, brother Clarence Davis, 18, and friend Gquan Lloyd, 18, Wednesday morning and found a notoriously powerful Fabrique Nationale 5.7 handgun along with another less-powerful handgun and a bag of cocaine, according to DA Richard Brown. The gun, called a "cop killer" by many for its ability to pierce 48 layers of bullet-proof Kevlar, is the first of its type to be recovered by authorities in New York City.
"The FN 5.7 is a lethal handgun imported from Belgium and capable of easily penetrating most police vets and plates," Brown said. "While this is the first time that such a deadly weapon has been recovered in New York City, its presence is troubling and makes the job of street cops that much more dangerous."
Since 1994, 425 of the 616 police officers killed in the line of duty have been killed with a FN 5.7, the DA said.
The three Far Rockaway residents, all of the Hammel Houses on 81-10 Rockaway Beach Blvd., were arraigned Thursday on charges of criminal possession of a weapon and a controlled substance at Queens Criminal Court in Kew Gardens. If convicted, each could spend up to 15 years in prison.
Reach reporter Stephen Stirling by email at news@timesledger.com or by phone at (718)229-0300 ext. 162.

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Preacherman
July 22, 2006, 03:22 AM
I call BS on this one. I doubt very much whether even a dozen cops have been killed by the FN 5.7mm - never mind the astronomical total the article cites. Someone's been at the hallucinogens again . . . :rolleyes:

gunsmith
July 22, 2006, 03:30 AM
my brother is a cop in NY
and he asked me about the five seven...
I assured him that the AK pistols and AR pistols
will penetrate his vest too if they manage to outlaw
the five seven:evil: ...thanks to THR , I know far more about
guns then my cop brother....but he has a way cuter GF
and a life....:p

PCGS65
July 22, 2006, 03:33 AM
Police in Far Rockaway arrested and charged three youths with criminal possession of a weapon Wednesday after a search of their home yielded a powerful type of handgun that has been responsible for more than two-thirds of police officer deaths since 1994, according to the Queens district attorney.

Well just put the gun in jail..........problem solved................

Devonai
July 22, 2006, 03:43 AM
What year was the 5.7 introduced? 2003? This is the worst piece of junk article I've ever seen posted here!

KD5NRH
July 22, 2006, 04:02 AM
Since 1994, 425 of the 616 police officers killed in the line of duty have been killed with a FN 5.7, the DA said.

Huh? Last I checked, weren't traffic accidents the leading cause of LEO LOD deaths?

That only leaves 191 deaths by all other causes/weapons combined.

It's irresponsible reporting to trust such a statistic based on a single source.

Hoppy590
July 22, 2006, 04:08 AM
i read a while back that MA wanted to ban 3 guns specificly.
the S&W 500. wich, ironicly enough is made in springfield MA, is too unweildy and expensive to use in a crime
the Barret 50 cals, same as above... X10
and the F&N FiVe SeVeN or how ever its spelt. again FAR too expensive and rare for a common criminal to use

it seems others are just as ignorant

Cosmoline
July 22, 2006, 04:22 AM
reporter Stephen Stirling is a boneheaded dinglewad and can be told so by email at news@timesledger.com or by phone at (718)229-0300 ext. 162.

Cesiumsponge
July 22, 2006, 05:00 AM
Hah the logic makes my head explode.

Are we really supposed to believe this article?

If there were 425 deaths (more importantly, over 2/3 of all cop deaths) directly related to this pistol, there would be many, many more cop injuries, near misses, and incidents involving this particular firearm...all which are prime chances to recover weapons. The evidence lockers are probably stocked full of revolvers, pistols, shotguns, rifles, zip guns, machetes, chainsaws, bludgeoning and cutting objects, and all sorts of improvised weapons but they only found just one of these FN 5.7 pistols since 1994? They must have self-destruct systems or cloaking devices, and once dropped, they activate an internal time travel device to send them back to the 2003/4 n which they were manufactured so they couldn't recover any until recently.

I'll tell you how that's possible

The bloody pistol has only existed for several years, the high penetration ammunition is only available to military and law enforcement, and no one goes out and buys a $1000 firearm, waits several weeks, and picks it up to off someone. You could probably break into 10,000 homes with firearms and not even find one of these pistols because they simply aren't widespread.

I would find it improbable, if not downright impossible to even claim that 5% of any police deaths can be atributed to any one particular make or model firearm. Somehow, in Bizzaro World, 5.7mm ammunition and the 5.7 are twice as popular than all other calibers and firearms combined (including .22LR and 38 special).

I doubt any law enforcement agents have even been killed by the 5.7mm round, because if it was, the media would be ALL OVER it. I wrote the guy an email but somehow I think it'll fall on deaf ears. This is THE worst article I've seen to date. I've witnessed gross exaggerations but this is plain, unebelievable fabrication that you can't even expect an unknowledgable person (in terms of firearms) would swallow. That is like claiming 3/4 of all traffic-related cop fatalities were done by 2003 Ford Mustangs with the 4.6L V-8 engine, red paint, and the chrome package. It's simply unbelievable on any level.

Norton
July 22, 2006, 06:47 AM
It does appear that the gun wasn't even put into production until 2002-2003. That is one powerful firearm if it can send out pre-natal rays of death to kill police officer 8-9 years before it was even introduced. :rolleyes:

Fosbery
July 22, 2006, 06:47 AM
Why not complain? When ever I see a fautly article in the UK in relation to firearms, I write/email in and get the article changed, or an apology.

answerguy
July 22, 2006, 09:18 AM
In the article "police confiscate 'cop killer' gun in Far Rockaway" you stated DA Richard Brown saying that a particular gun; the "notoriously powerful Fabrique Nationale 5.7 handgun" has been responsible for "425 of the 616 police officers killed in the line of duty".

Was this fact checked by any other source? It seems hard to believe that one particular handgun could account for such a large percentage of deaths of Law Enforcement Officers.
Especially since the handgun in question has only been out since 2004.

source: http://www.bradycampaign.org/ler/fnh/faq.php

Q: When did the Five-SeveN first become available to civilians in the US?

A: FN Herstal debuted the gun and ammunition for sale to civilians in 2004.

EasternShore
July 22, 2006, 09:40 AM
NYPD line of duty deaths since 1994:

Date of Death Rank Last Name First Name Middle Initial
12/10/2005 Det. Enchautegui Daniel
11/28/2005 Det. Stewart Dillon H.
11/24/2004 P.O. Rivera William
9/10/2004 Det. Parker Robert L
9/10/2004 Det. Rafferty Patrick H.
1/31/2004 Sgt. Ferguson Keith A
3/10/2003 Det. Nemorin James Verneuil
3/10/2003 Det. Andrews Rodney J
8/28/2002 P.O. Enton Disdale O
3/31/2002 Det. Betancourt Jaime
9/11/2001 P.O. Danz Vincent G
9/11/2001 P.O. Fazio Robert
9/11/2001 P.O. Driscoll Stephen P
9/11/2001 P.O. Pettit Glen K
9/11/2001 P.O. Dominguez Jerome M
9/11/2001 P.O. Smith Moira A
9/11/2001 P.O. D'allara John
9/11/2001 Det. Vigiano Joseph V
9/11/2001 P.O. Kloepfer Ronald P
9/11/2001 Sgt. Gillis Rodney C
9/11/2001 P.O. Perry John W
9/11/2001 P.O. Leahy James P
9/11/2001 P.O. Talty Paul
9/11/2001 P.O. Langone Thomas M
9/11/2001 P.O. Valentin, Jr. Santos
9/11/2001 P.O. Ellis Mark J
9/11/2001 Sgt. Curtin Michael S
9/11/2001 Sgt. Roy Timothy A
9/11/2001 Sgt. Coughlin John G
9/11/2001 P.O. Weaver Walter E
9/11/2001 P.O. McDonnell Brian G
9/11/2001 Det. Richards Claude D
9/11/2001 P.O. Suarez Ramon
7/17/2000 P.O. Kelly John Michael
5/28/2000 P.O. Regan David A
2/14/1999 P.O. Dziergowski Matthew A
7/31/1998 P.O. Carter Gerald L
5/26/1998 P.O. Mosomillo Anthony F
1/19/1998 Det. Carrington Sean G
12/11/1997 P.O. Forster Neil A.
5/19/1997 P.O. Sanchez Anthony W
12/22/1996 P.O. Davis Charles A
10/18/1996 Lt. Narvaez Federico
10/13/1996 P.O. Jones Brian R
5/21/1996 P.O. Guidice Vincent
3/14/1996 P.O. Gillespie Kevin
2/17/1996 P.O. Oddo Charles
9/25/1995 P.O. Willis David A
1/21/1995 Det. Boesch Alfred
12/2/1994 P.O. Cannon Jr. Raymond R
4/27/1994 P.O. Perez Jose A
3/15/1994 P.O. McDonald Sean A
1/25/1994 P.O. DeMutiis Nicholas R


Official link:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/memorial.html

That ain't 425 even. I'll post my message to the paper shortly.

Spot77
July 22, 2006, 10:12 AM
Maybe the terrorists secretly killed 23 police officers with a five seven , then drove a few planes into the twin towers to hide the evidence.

Nightfall
July 22, 2006, 10:22 AM
The FN 5.7 is a lethal handgun...As opposed to the kind that give you sweet little kisses? :rolleyes:

I won't even address the 425 killed by the 5.7. We've seen some really ridiculous statistics from the other side, but this takes the cake.

EasternShore
July 22, 2006, 10:44 AM
Message sent:

To Whom It May Concern:



The Article entitled “Police Confiscate “Cop Killer” Gun in Far Rockaway” by Stephen Stirling needs either a retraction or serious corrections. It would appear that Mr. Stirling did no research for this article or to the facts regarding the firearm that was confiscated. A few minutes and the use of a search engine will yield startling facts that are very contradictory to Mr. Stirling’s writings. I will address them case by case.



Since 1994 only 53 (+/- 1) New York Police officers have been killed in the line of duty. 23 of those officers died on September 11, 2001. On a national level, since 1996, 1,635 officers have died in the line of duty, 886 by various accidents, 740 by felonious acts, of the felonious deaths 589 were shot in the line of duty. Not one search of various media outlets of searching any internet site has yielded a news story or police report of an officer being wounded or killed by an FN Herstal 5.7 firearm of any type.



Sources:



http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/memorial.html

http://www.nleomf.com/TheMemorial/Facts/causes.htm

http://www.nleomf.com/TheMemorial/Facts/killedlod.htm





The standard FN 5.7 ammunition available in the United States does not penetrate body armor as stated in the article. The ammunition addressed in the article is the FN Herstal SS190 - Armor piercing (AP) round and is only available to police and military. The standard round is the SS196 - Sporting round (Hornady 40 gr. V-max, hollow point lead), (not AP).



Source:



http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm

http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/hg_fiveseven_usg.htm

http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/tw_57x28mm.htm





The FN Five Seven Handgun addressed in the article has only been in production for a few years. Not since 1994 as asserted in the article. Specifically 2003/2004.



Source:

http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/hg_fiveseven_usg.htm





Please take the appropriate actions to correct these matters. It is an embarrassment to the DA’s office and LEO’s that are working hard to get criminals off the street to see such inaccuracies in print.



Thank You,

KadicDeshi
July 22, 2006, 11:41 AM
EasternShore,

Very nicely put together. My hat's off to you, sir.

Barrett

Dbl0Kevin
July 22, 2006, 11:58 AM
Wow......just......wow. I literally laughed out loud when I read that article and saw 1994. Maybe FN has perfected a time machine and isn't letting anyone know yet but somehow the Five Seven managed to get a test ride. :scrutiny:

mogunner
July 22, 2006, 12:31 PM
Agree with the majority. I call B>S on this. This story needs some serious rethinking /retraction :fire: :banghead:

ArmedBear
July 22, 2006, 12:40 PM
When ever I see a fautly article in the UK in relation to firearms, I write/email in and get the article changed, or an apology.

You must be independently wealthy and never sleep!:D

Or is that only in the US that we get so many such articles?

carterbeauford
July 22, 2006, 12:49 PM
This pistol has killed 425 officers and it has taken them 12 years to finally recover one? Not only is it capable of time travel, it must have invisible capabilities as well. FNH is clearly well into the future of gun technology.

I sent a similar email asking them to preserve what little journalistic integrity still exists in society. This is terrible, terrible reporting :uhoh:

Fosbery
July 22, 2006, 01:19 PM
No, there are just a lot fewer articles about firearms here. And the media here dosn't focus on any specific kinds of firearm or their operation (well, not since the pistol ban it hasn't) so there's much less for them to get wrong. I did have a good rant at some poor girl for writing in her article "this Glock-revolver-pistol" :D

gunsmith
July 22, 2006, 03:46 PM
Because of the ammo issue, I hadn't realized how bad though.

You know, they act like the Five Seven is the only firearm
that can defeat a vest. every hunting rifle above .22
probably could and I bet a few .22's can too

ABTOMAT
July 22, 2006, 04:54 PM
I'm honstly surprised that no one's tried going after 7.62x25 surplsu pistols, given the level of intelligence evident in articles like this. Although I guess the recent introduction of the 5.7 and the claims of armor penetration have something to do with it.

I wonder if officials who spout information like this are aware that a cheap hunting rifle that's been cut down by a thug is infinitely more powerful than almost any pistol.

Does anyone else get the feeling that the DA, if he did actually give these stats, should be reprimanded in some way?

yhtomit
July 22, 2006, 05:11 PM
I wrote one, then waited a few minutes and edited it for clarity and to be less peevish; this is the version I finally hit "send" on:

"Dear Sirs:

Stephen Stirling's article about the police seizure of a Fabrique Nationale 5.7 pistol contained several far-fetched claims despite its brevity. Stirling calls the 5.7 a "type of handgun that has been responsible for more than two-thirds of police officer deaths since 1994." That claim is patently false, whether invented by Stirling or the district attorney to whom it's attributed. Not only has this pistol been available for sale to civilians only since 2004 (claims reaching a decade earlier are puzzling if not nonsensical), but absolutely no evidence shows that in the short time since its introduction the 5.7 has been used by criminals to shoot any substantial number of police, never mind "more than two-thirds" of fatal shootings. If 425 officers have been killed by criminals shooting 5.7s or other guns of the same caliber, I challenge Stirling (or anyone involved in fact-checking at the paper) to document (or even name) just 10 of them.

Many gun owners are not only zealous in the defense of their Constitutional rights, but downright persnickety when they perceive such inaccuracies. Fabricated statistics may scare your readers, but certainly don't inform them.

Cordially,

[Signature + contact info]"

iliketoshootguns
July 22, 2006, 05:19 PM
the 5.7 penetrating ceramic vest plates.., I find that hard to believe

beerslurpy
July 22, 2006, 06:01 PM
The 5.7 round didnt even exist till about 2-3 years ago. And there havent been 600 on-duty police deaths in NY in the past 10 years. I lived there 18 years and I can tell you that a cop being killed on duty would make the news for a month and there would be parades and fanfare and a giant funeral. It is a very rare occurence.

edit: from reading that list, it seems like the number one killer of cops in NYC is muslim terrorists flying airplanes. Not even people with guns.

Cesiumsponge
July 22, 2006, 06:24 PM
The 5.7mm round has been around for over a decade, but it was strictly used by small military units for the FN P90 personal defense weapon. It wasn't until several years ago when the 5.7 pistol was created to compliment the P90 and the civilian IOM and 5.7mm civilian ammunition and was available for us to purchase.

I think I've only seen two of these pistols to date at all my visits to local gun stores and only those stores that had these sold the ammo. I would be mildly surprised if -anyone- will ever be maimed or killed by this particular firearm in a civilian situation...self-defense, criminal, or police-related, period. It's simply not very wide spread.

Cacique500
July 22, 2006, 06:41 PM
The gun, called a "cop killer" by many for its ability to pierce 48 layers of bullet-proof Kevlar

I wonder how many FPS the gun has to be going to penetrate 48 layers of kevlar. :rolleyes:

DontBurnMyFlag
July 22, 2006, 07:03 PM
As a Law Enforcement Officer, is it outlandish to say I'd rather be shot by an FN 5.7 than a hunting rifle? Or even more outlandish to say Id rather be shot by an FN 5.7 than see them banned?

Crab Man
July 22, 2006, 07:33 PM
beerslurpy: The DA does not say the 616 number pertains to NYC. I think if a city had about sixty officers dying of gunfire a year, I bet they'd be having a hell of a time finding recruits.

The 616 number seemed more plausable as a national number. I checked out The Officer Down Memorial Page (http://www.odmp.org/), and if you take a period since 1994 and ending sometime in 2005, you would have 616 officers across the nation dying by gunfire.

But yeah, 425 officers dying from an FN 5.7 is impossible to swallow. I'd be surprised if there were one.

cracked butt
July 22, 2006, 08:19 PM
I'd be suprised if there were much more than 400 5.7's in private hands in the country, they aren't exactly common, I've only seen 1 myself. Its pretty amazing how antis throw around bogus statistics. I guess if you are going to go out on a limb and tell a lie, might as well make it a whopper.

EasternShore
July 22, 2006, 10:25 PM
I guess I should consider my self lucky to have fired my friends. It is a nice firearm, I just can't afford it.

Finch
July 22, 2006, 10:33 PM
I don't think LOE's need to worry too much about the 5.7, considering the way criminals shoot, the ammo is too expensive for them. :scrutiny: :p

benewton
July 22, 2006, 10:37 PM
7.62 x 25 would probably work better, and CZ-52's are cheap.

But don't tell anybody: it'd ruin the lie and disrupt the statistics!

:neener:

gunsmith
July 22, 2006, 11:35 PM
How very little the main stream media knows
about firearms.
A friend of mine sent me a photo about
supposed police mishandling of guns she saw on a
liberal website, the police did not have their finger on the trigger!
The media is soooo brainwashed by what they see
on TV that they think you're supposed to point your gun
in the air, inches away from your face, with your finger on the
trigger...great for close up's I guess but a good way
to lose your hearing, eyesight and also get shot by a bad guy...

Also it's New York media, they grew up in households without
any guns and taught that only police have the special
super magic power to use a gun.
The reporter probably never ever thought that the DA would lie
to him...I was going to say obsfucate, but it's a plain lie,
he never thought he would get caught at.

Big Gay Al
July 23, 2006, 12:08 AM
So, has anyone emailed the stupid reporter and informed him of his mistake?

gunsmith
July 23, 2006, 01:49 AM
We'll see if he replies.

I have a feeling that he was just printing what he heard from the DA
& never thought to check out if the Da was telling the truth.

Arkie
July 23, 2006, 01:59 AM
Maybe they just read it wrong when they were typing it.

425 Maybe it was 4 to 5. :rolleyes:

Still way off in my book.

Soybomb
July 23, 2006, 03:13 AM
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2004/table34.htm
According to table 34 of the FBI's 2004 "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted" section of the Uniform Crime Report out of 36 law enforcement officers killed by handguns in 2004, none were killed by the FN 5.7 weapon. Furthermore table 39 shows that in 2004 a total of 4 law enforcement officers died as a result of ammunition penetrating their body armor. Of those 4 officers, all were killed by rifles. In fact, in the time range listed in the report (1995 to 2004), not even one officer was killed by a handgun round penetrating his body armor. All 22 fatal wounds in that period were from a rifle.

From 1995 to 2004 545 law enforcement officers have been killed with firearms according to table 34 of the FBI's 2004 "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted" section of the Uniform Crime Report. Of those 114 were from rifles and 35 from shotguns. From handguns 116 were 9mm rounds, 43 were .45 caliber, 44 were .40 caliber, and 48 were .38 caliber. This account for 400 of the 545 deaths. None of the remaining deaths are attributed to the FN 5.7 round. I'd love to know where Richard Brown has found the number of officers slain by the FN 5.7 to be 425 as it seems his data is a fabrication or contradicts the FBI's.

Feel free to copy and paste as necessary for your letters.

Fosbery
July 23, 2006, 07:54 AM
Well the logic is simple:

Police officers wear bullet proof vests and bullet proof vests will completely stop all bullets from all handguns no matter where the officer is shot. The FN 57 is the only handgun designed to penetrate bullet proof vests, so obviously all the 425 officers killed by handguns were killed by the 57.

:o

bogie
July 23, 2006, 10:47 AM
When in doubt, write a letter....

=========

Campers, the fellow who wrote that thing on the 5.7mm pistol _really_ needs to be sent back to whatever institution he's interning from, so that he can take a course or three about fact checking... And common sense. One doesn't need to actually know much about firearms (or any subject, for that matter...) to think "Hey, this guy just told me that 2/3 of the cops killed have been killed with this kind of gun, but I've never heard of it before - I wonder why?"

Now, if you guys _really_ want a juicy article, go after the bone-headed DA... Lemme guess - he's elected, right? He's using your paper as a podium to show how "tough" he is on crime, and making stuff up in the process so that it'll look like he's fighting the tough fight... Sheesh...

I wonder what else he lies about? Does he fabricate evidence? Does he withhold disclosure of evidence from defendants' counsel?

Now, sit down and weigh the consequences... You can continue to get your parking tickets fixed by this fellow, or you can suck it up, and tear him a new orifice. He _used_ your reporter and your paper. Are you going to let him get away with it?

Chuck Bogardus

Jake in TX
July 23, 2006, 12:03 PM
I did some checking on this district attorney, and found that most of the Times Ledger article was lifted verbatim from a press release from the DA's article:

http://www.queensda.org/Press%20Releases/2006%20Press%20Releases/07-July/07-20-2006.pdf

Does anybody think it might do any good contacting the DA's office directly?

Jake in TX

DWARREN123
July 23, 2006, 01:55 PM
I seen a report where the .17 HMR could shoot thru a personnal protection vest. No firearm shoots anyone, it has to have ammo capable of it and someone to aim and shoot.

Don Gwinn
July 23, 2006, 03:28 PM
Yes, Jake, I think that would be fun if nothing else.

I think it will be fun to send all this to John Stossel, too.

Low-Sci
July 23, 2006, 03:52 PM
That "prenatal rays of death" made me laugh my butt off.

I am in awe of the sheer stupidity required to make a statement as asinine as the DA's with a straight face. That DA had to know it was a lie. Either that or by "same type of gun" he actually meant "semiautomatic." But I doubt it.

Langenator
July 23, 2006, 04:21 PM
If that DA is that sloppy with his facts and/or research, you really have to wonder about his won/lost record.

How much of NYC's crime problem would be solved if they didn't have idiots like this running the prosecutor's offices?

Scottso
July 23, 2006, 04:30 PM
NYC Propaganda Thank You Mr. Bloomberg!!

ilbob
July 23, 2006, 04:34 PM
I did some checking on this district attorney, and found that most of the Times Ledger article was lifted verbatim from a press release from the DA's article:

http://www.queensda.org/Press%20Rele...07-20-2006.pdf

Does anybody think it might do any good contacting the DA's office directly?

No surprise here. One of the things that you find about modern journalism is that much of it is driven by press releases. It takes time and money to actually go get the news, so much of what you read in most papers is regurgitated press releases.

Reporters are no more experts in every field than anyone else. They often just do not have the time to fact check, or maybe just don't bother because it jives with either their personal bias or their employer's.

The sad part is very few newspapers will print corrections and the few that do often hide them where few will see them.

I once emailed a reporter for the local rag and pointed out that a story he did had put a decimal point in the wrong place. No return call, no correction ever published as best I could tell. The error was real basic arithmetic so one would think it would have been easy to verify, but no such luck.

Art Eatman
July 23, 2006, 04:41 PM
If you're gonna email the reporter, BE POLITE!

The DA is another matter...

Our job, here, is to try to educate people as to the facts, not to go blowing smoke about, "Me so smart, you so stupid!" Any fool can do that.

Remember, the deal here at THR is to show people we're grownup, mature adults. Sure, a lot of us have to fake that, but we can at least try.

:), Art

hksw
July 23, 2006, 06:35 PM
Huh, I'm surprised you guys haven't figured it out. There is a big move to demonize the 5.7 and get it banned. The first step is to flood the opinions of people who don't know to link the gun to evil uses. In this case FN 5.7 = "Cop killer gun". It doesn't matter if the accusations are true or not, the focus is to get the public behind the ban. The majority of the folks who read the stories don't know and don't follow up on the truth to them.

I'll bet the press won't print a retraction. They did not make the claim. It was information from the DA. And I doubt they are not going to actively ask the DA about the facts. The best that they will do, which I doubt will happen, is print a reader's op ed calling out the DA on his facts.

Art Eatman
July 23, 2006, 06:44 PM
hksw, we know nothing about the reporter. Even of he favors gun control, he might be more than a bit upset about being lied to. I emailed him; I invited him to THR, telling him to feel free to ask any questions he wishes, concerning gun issues...

Art

Shield529
July 23, 2006, 11:41 PM
A completed research project showed that at the time of this writing no officer in the US has ever been shot or killed with the FN 5.7.

armoredman
July 24, 2006, 12:47 AM
Politics is perception. We, the minority, know the truth, but the perception has been laid out by this article to millions of New Yorkers, that this handgun, this round, this idea of people carrying guns, killed all these police officers, and must be BANNED!! They will no more check the statistics before spouting it verbatim at the hair salons and sandwich shops, than I would if someone told me the score at the last Mets/Giants game - I simply don't care enough to look. I also don't tell other people bogus scores, don't care enough to tell anyone....

molonlabe
July 24, 2006, 08:37 AM
REMEMBER THIS: If the media can't get it right - Or even close to right - on issues about which you are personally well informed, why should you trust them to get it right on issues you have no personal knowledge of?

stolen from a THR members tag line.

Fosbery
July 24, 2006, 11:21 AM
George Orwell once said "early in life I had noticed that no event is ever correctly reported in a newspaper".

learn2shoot
July 24, 2006, 02:48 PM
Please correct the article entitled "Police confiscate 'cop killer' gun in Far Rockaway" as many of the facts are very inaccurate. The Fabrique Nationale 5.7 recovered by police could not have possibly been responsible for 2/3 of police officer deaths since 1994. First the gun has only been available for 2 years. In fact since 2004, 143 Officers have died as a result of gun-fire 12 of these were determined to be accidental. These included rifles, shotguns, and pistols and even the officer's handgun, but no mention of the FN 5.7 Surely if the FN5.7 was responsible for 2/3 of officer deaths I would have found a more significant representation. In fact even looking at the the officers who died as a result of guns in New York State in those two years there is no mention of the FN 5.7 only one instance of a handgun which was not identified and the likelihood that this was a FN 5.7 is extremely unlikely. As much as I tried to find data to corroborate this statistic I could not. If this is indeed accurate please provide your source of this information.

http://www.odmp.org/search.php

Sistema1927
July 24, 2006, 03:12 PM
Since 1994, 425 of the 616 police officers killed in the line of duty have been killed with a FN 5.7, the DA said.

Um, where is that BS Meter graphic when you really need it?

kwelz
July 24, 2006, 03:48 PM
I called the Paper and spoke with the reporter. He was quite nice. He said his info Came from the DA's office and he is working on a follow up story with the right information.

gunsmith
July 24, 2006, 04:15 PM
This kind of stuff reminds me of why I do not want to live anywhere near NYC or even NY State.

My brother is a cop there (Westchester County) and can not carry an AR15 on duty!
(dept policy no rifles, shotgun in trunk)


I as a civilian can carry more guns then he can!

Roadwild17
July 24, 2006, 04:48 PM
maby he should take his foil hat off, or at least loosen it a little.

gunsmith
July 24, 2006, 06:43 PM
this is a thread about the confiscation of a five seven and about an innaccurate
article about the number of cops killed LOD by said weapon.

It isn't about use of force or swat teams or 18 year olds getting killed for smoking pot.

Those horses have been flogged, they are dead and buried.:barf:

Big Gay Al
July 24, 2006, 06:49 PM
Gunsmith: You're right, I apologize for letting my passion get the better of me.

Back to the topic.

Does anyone know for sure WHEN the first FNFive-Seven might possibly have been in this country? I looked on FN's website, but couldn't find any definitive answer.

gunsmith
July 24, 2006, 07:12 PM
Queens DA revises release about powerful handgun
By:Stephen Stirling
07/21/2006



The Queens district attorneys office said Monday
a miscommunication was
to blame for inaccurate information it released
in a press release last
Thursday that was quoted in a TimesLedger story
on the newspapers Web
site Friday.
(newspeak for "the gunnies are on to me")
The DAs office issued the press release about the
July 19 arrest of
three Far Rockaway youths, who were allegedly
found in possession of a
bag of cocaine and a powerful handgun, the
Belgian-made Fabrique
Nationale (FN) 5.7. In the release, the DA said
that 425 of the 616
officers killed in the line of duty between 1994
and 2003 had been
killed with the FN 5.7.There was a
miscommunication between the officer
and the prosecutor of the case, said DA spokesman
Kevin Ryan. The
statement should have read that 425 officers were
killed with a
handgun, not with this handgun. The TimesLedger
story elicited a number
of e-mails and phone calls from Web readers
around the country who
questioned the DA s claim that the officers had
been killed by the FN
5.7. The DA said Monday that both the press
release and the criminal
complaint filed in Queens Criminal Court last
Thursday have
subsequently been changed to reflect the proper
information, but the
discovery of the gun in Far Rockaway was still a
concern.The FN 5.7 is
a lethal handgun imported from Belgium and
capable of easily
penetrating most police vets and plates, DA Brown
said in last weeks
release. While this is the first time that such a
deadly weapon has
been recovered in New York City, its presence is
troubling and makes
the job of street cops that much more dangerous.
The revised press
release retained Browns statement about the FN
5.7, which has only been
available on the commercial market since 2004.
The DAs original release
also raised questions about how powerful the
rounds fired by the FN 5.7
can be. A deposition given by Detective Marques
Stewart of the 100th
Precinct last Thursday said the FN 5.7 is
referred to as acop-killer
because it can be fired from up to 100 yards with
a great degree of
accuracy and because the bullet it fires travels
at more than 2,000
feet per second, making it capable of penetrating
most police vests and
plates. According a report issued by the company
that sells and markets
the handgun in the United States, FNH USA, the
only type of ammunition
compatible with the FN 5.7 sold for commercial
use in the United States
is the SS196 bullet, which was found to be
non-armor piercing by the
FBIs Department of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
in 2005. The Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms report said the SS196 had
been classified asnot
armor piercing ammunition under federal firearms
statutes. The FBI unit
report said the SS192 bullet, which also can be
fired by the FN 5.7,
did pierce level IIA kevlar vests, which are
widely used by police
officers in the United States. While FNH USA has
said that the SS192 is
no longer imported for commercial sale in the
United States, the Queens
DA was recently informed by FBI officials that
successful commercial
purchases of SS192 munitions were made by the
agency at a munitions
outlet in Virginia, Ryan said. FNH USA did not
immediately return calls
for comment. The controversy stems from a
court-authorized police raid
of the Far Rockaway home of William Davis, 21,
brother Clarence Davis,
18, and friend Gquan Lloyd, 18, on the morning of
July 19, Browns
office said. Police said they found a FN 5.7
handgun along with another
less-powerful handgun and a bag of cocaine. The
three Far Rockaway
residents, all of the Hammel Houses on 81-10
Rockaway Beach Blvd., were
arraigned last Thursday on charges of criminal
possession of a weapon
and a controlled substance at Queens Criminal
Court in Kew Gardens, the
DA said. If convicted, each could spend up to 15
years in prison.

hksw
July 24, 2006, 07:25 PM
I called the Paper and spoke with the reporter. He was quite nice. He said his info Came from the DA's office and he is working on a follow up story with the right information.

Good on you Azizza. Hopefully, he is the 'get the facts straight'-type of guy and follows up. I won't hold my breath but I do hope he (and the newspaper) follows through. As noted, it isn't entirely the newspaper or the reporter at issue (though they do play a part in getting the facts straight bfore printing), it is mostly on the DA. It is understandable not to look up the facts when the source is supposedly reliable. Unfortunately in this case, the DA has an agenda.

EasternShore
July 24, 2006, 09:27 PM
One small victory!!!!

:D :D :D

Soybomb
July 25, 2006, 01:48 AM
I got the same canned response from the DA's office, they got back:
Mr. Ryan I appreciate the response and the effort to set the record
straight but I would like to point out that the FN 5.7 is still no greater
danger to law enforcement officers than any other handgun. While the
Brady Campaign has claimed that the now discontinued SS192 ammunition was
able to penetrate level 2A body armor, it has yet to be duplicated by an
independent group. Proper backing is vital to body armor testing, poor
methodology can give invalid results.

Further level 2A body armor is a weak armor. It isn't even rated to
defend against full metal jacket 9mm rounds traveling faster than 1100
fps. The most common body armor worn by LEO's in the US is level 3A.
Testing by FN has shown that SS192 will not penetrate level 3A armor, and
the ATF has agreed with those results and does not list the round as an
armor piercing round. If the ATF agreed it was armor piercing or I saw
some independent testing confirming the Brady group's results I could
certainly be more receptive to calling it a danger to police officers.

Until then we have uncorroborated reports of ammunition that is stated to
be non-armor piercing by the BATF (and is no longer sold) piercing a level
of body armor that most police already find too insubstantial to wear.
And to top it off, in the 10 year period of the FBI's most recent Uniform
Crime Report not a single police officer has died as a result of any
handgun round penetrating his body armor. To call this handgun a danger
to police officers is misleading at best.

Diomed
July 25, 2006, 02:48 AM
One small victory!!!!

Considering that most of the correction is still incorrect BS, it's not much of a victory.

It's the best that can be expected, I suppose.

Big Gay Al
July 25, 2006, 06:59 AM
Has there been a correction published in the newspaper yet?

wqbang
July 25, 2006, 01:58 PM
Yes, there has been a correction published on the web.

http://www.timesledger.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16952861&BRD=2676&PAG=461&dept_id=573700&rfi=6&xb=jobah

wqbang
July 25, 2006, 02:01 PM
NEWSDAY ran the same article, but no retraction seen!

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--copkillergun0720jul20,0,7909457.story?coll=ny-region-apnewyork

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