My response to a bigot


PDA

MicroBalrog
May 4, 2003, 09:06 AM
I picked this up from www.keepandbeararms.com
>From: "jerome Woodel" <savgames@hotmail.com>
>To: Director@KeepAndBearArms.com
>Subject: the website
>Date sent: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:22:00 +0000

>A pathetic and sad site. Makes me realize why we have so much violence in this country. People who think violence will prevent violence. And >the sad part is that these people, because of some tragedy in their lives probably, actually believe that everyone being armed will prevent >further tragedy. The sad part is that they take such pleasure in hearing about people, usually poor, uneducated, or disturbed people being >shot to death. The fact that they obviously take such pleasure in hearing about these deaths points to the basic insensitivity and insecurity of >most gun nuts. Pathetic and sad. I think I'll move to Canada. I'd sign my name, but I don't trust anyone who would work on a website like this.

and replied as follows:

Hi!
So you call Angel's website pathetic and sad?
Riddle me this: Why Britain, where people have no legal guns, is the most violent society in the West? Why Israel, where I live and nearly nobody has a gun, is so safe from terror?
And yes, sometimes I am happy to know people are killed: last morning, two terrorists, armed with grenades and AK-47 attacked a settler village. Fortunately, the terrorists didn't know, that settlers, unlike ordinaryl people in Israel, are allowed to have guns, so they shot them. I'm happy, because I know I'm safer today than I was tomorrow - there's two anti-semites in the world who are not going to shoot me just for being Jewish. Thank you Mr. Gaston Glock! Thank you Samuel Colt! If these settlers wouldn't have guns, they, and their children would be dead. The terrorists don't care about the law you see.
And yes, violence (in self-defense) prevents violence every day. Cops use guns to arrest criminals. The army uses planes and tanks to deter aggression. Armed citizens use guns to deter and sometimes to kill people who think being poor is an excuse to kill, rob, and rape people. Absence of legal guns and defensive violence would only serve to increase aggression - like it happened to some of my ancestors in Kishinev, in Aushwitz, in Vilna, etc.
Oh, I wonder - what if those settlers were unarmed pacifists like you? The terrorists would have killed them. And proceeded to kill their children. And then someone else. Until someone with a gun would have stopped them. There's one thing I'm afraid of - that if I'm ever in danger, the only person to help will be a pacifist and not gun nut. A gun nut, you see, would help. A pacifist would stand by and watch me die, probably. Oh, and yes. I want to conclude this with a wish for you, my friend - I hope you will never be in a situation where you think - "I wish I had a gun..."
Sincerely Yours,
Boris Karpa
Bat-Yam, Israel

Anybody who values human life should visit this!
http://www.a-human-right.com/introduction.html - Because Human Life Is Worth Defending

P.S. Seriously, check that one out. Maybe it'll make you think.

If you enjoyed reading about "My response to a bigot" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Mastrogiacomo
May 4, 2003, 09:25 AM
You'll probably hate my guts for saying this but I think the person that made that comment was right in part. I don't agree with his/her position but sometimes on these gun forums, I find a real insensitivity when you hear about people getting killed with firearms. Ex. kid finding illegal gun in family member's room and putting the barrel in his mouth, Jon Erik Hexum's accident involving a gun from playing with a prop he should have had taken from him, kid killing himself by playing Russian Roulette with a gun...really stupid, senseless accidents but still accidents. I was really taken back by some of the comments from posters that strike me as nasty and condescending. I have two guns, use them responsibly but I don't find amusement or make wise cracks when I read about incidents like this. Antis do read these forums too which is how I'm sure they get a basis for their arguements.

However like all antis, they don't know all the facts about guns. Shame really, if I were a cop they'd feel safe. Recently read about a Lt. police that sexually assulted two girls for three years and they didn't speak out because he was a cop with a gun. It's not the firearm that's unsafe, it's the person using it. I don't like to be compared with criminals and didn't buy a gun because of a tragedy in my life. I also don't take pleasure in any way from reading about shootings. I guess this is yet another misguided person that likes to lump all gun owners in one category.:scrutiny:

Dave Markowitz
May 4, 2003, 09:26 AM
Well said!

Too bad it'll probably fall on deaf ears.

MicroBalrog
May 4, 2003, 09:27 AM
Of course, the last phrase is wishful thinking:D

MicroBalrog
May 4, 2003, 09:29 AM
You'll probably hate my guts for saying this but I think the person that made that comment was right in part. I don't agree with his/her position but sometimes on these gun forums, I find a real insensitivity when you hear about people getting killed with firearms. Ex. kid finding illegal gun in family member's room and putting the barrel in his mouth, Jon Erik Hexum's accident involving a gun from playing with a prop he should have had taken from him, kid killing himself by playing Russian Roulette with a gun...really stupid, senseless accidents but still accidents. I was really taken back by some of the comments from posters that strike me as nasty and condescending. I have two guns, use them responsibly but I don't find amusement or make wise cracks when I read about incidents like this. Antis do read these forums too which is how I'm sure they get a basis for their arguements

Unfortunately, I believe that what he means is really that it's sick to rejoice over a home intruder's end-of-career - simply because that's who most of the "poor and uneducated" fools on Shamaya's newslinks are - criminals killed in the process.

Mastrogiacomo
May 4, 2003, 09:36 AM
If that's what's meant, I understood the anti wrong. I don't know of too many career criminals that are "poor and uneducated." Many are smart, ruthless and in it for the thrill rather than getting a real job. I lived aross the street from a few. Wish I had my gun then, maybe they would have thought twice before stealing the gas out of our cars...

Mark Tyson
May 4, 2003, 11:02 AM
Mastrogiacomo

I think you are right. Accidents are always tragic. Because we have no emotional connection to these news stories it's easy to make light of horrible events. However, I find it hard to feel grief over the death of a violent criminal intent on committing another atrocity.

Mastrogiacomo
May 4, 2003, 11:18 AM
I agree with you there Mark. My point is that because we don't have a direct connection to these stories (of accidental shootings) we tend to be a little cold in our remarks. I don't think most of the people mean to sound harsh but it's tough not to take the comments that way and this is exactly the type of comments antis zero in on. But like you, I don't feel bad when a dangerous career criminal is taken out. If the shoe was on the other foot, they wouldn't lose sleep over hurting me. As an NRA teacher told me, when you shoot at these types of low lifes -- make sure they don't live through it to sue you because being scum -- they will.

larryw
May 4, 2003, 11:44 AM
While arguing with bigots and other small minded people is sometimes fun, it's rarely productive. But occasionally you'll win one over with logic and reason, and that makes it all worthwhile.

Its a shame about that logic flaw in the second sentence of your reply (nobody has a gun = little terrorism in Israel).

MicroBalrog
May 4, 2003, 11:51 AM
Its a shame about that logic flaw in the second sentence of your reply (nobody has a gun = little terrorism in Israel).

Sarcasm man, sarcasm:D

larryw
May 4, 2003, 12:07 PM
Sarcasm is lost to these people; I'm sure he's now thinking that the Director of the K&BA site just validated his premise in the second sentence and quit reading.

MicroBalrog
May 4, 2003, 12:40 PM
Well, I hope it will get published on keepandbeararms.com - I forwarded Shamaya a copy - to inspire future letter-writers. I assume he won't get it. But I was so annoyed I couldn't rest it.

tex_n_cal
May 4, 2003, 12:59 PM
From a distance, many of us do see justice done when a bad guy doesn't survive the commission of his crime. We can also laugh when the dumb crook Darwinizes himself. Not to mention how many movie heros we've cheered when they take out the bad guy.

Just remember, though, many people who shoot criminals in self defense suffer post-traumatic stress disorder, regardless of the shooting's justification. It is a sobering responsibility, when you decide to keep arms for defense.

I think it's important to remember, you don't use guns to make a social or political statement, unless your name is Bin Laden. Guns are properly used to stop or prevent serious crimes.

As far as the tragic accidents - the guy is either foolish or drunk enough to play Russian Roulette, or otherwise shoot themselves accidently, I think most gun owners are wary of these incidents being turned to political purposes. To me at least, the world seems increasingly filled with anal retentive busybodies who want to protect us from ourselves, and we're electing far too many of them.

Most of us have an independent streak, and intensely dislike someone else's irresponsibility being used as justification for restriction of our liberties. Maybe the comments on foolish deaths are one's way of differentiating oneself from the deceased.

Anyway, I am an engineer, and I will now stop playing social psychologist:)

Mastrogiacomo
May 4, 2003, 02:35 PM
It's a shame you never hear of crinimals suffering from Post Traumatic Stress...might make them think twice. But then maybe you have to have some moral fiber to feel remorse.:scrutiny:

tex_n_cal
May 4, 2003, 06:53 PM
Good point...though many have their own emotional/mental issues to start with.:rolleyes:

As kids we do some bad thing - hit the cat, steal, cut class, get caught sometimes & feel guilty about it. By the time we reach adulthood, we've been socialized to the point that we wouldn't consider violent crimes. Somehow criminals learn to feed their ego by hurting others.

Of course, the smarter criminals(like say, Bin Laden) learn to cloak themselves in a cause. That way they can indulge their ego, hurting and killing, while not looking like the common criminals they really are.

Ryder
May 4, 2003, 07:44 PM
It's a shame you never hear of crinimals suffering from Post Traumatic Stress.

Their guilt is supplanted by fear of being caught. Many criminals do suffer from post traumatic stress but only AFTER they are caught. :D

JimP
May 4, 2003, 07:54 PM
Mastrogiaccomo (?).... Please explain to me what an "illegal gun" is...

I'm serious.

Mastrogiacomo
May 4, 2003, 08:27 PM
An illegal gun is one that you buy off a crack head, gang banger or steal for your own use -- or rather abuse. They're guns you have no business owning and likely aren't yours to begin with. I obtained my gun legally like everyone on this board -- gave fingerprints, submited to a background check, petetioned the Chief of police, etc. My guns are therefore legal as I have the right under the law to own them.

Standing Wolf
May 4, 2003, 08:34 PM
I want to conclude this with a wish for you, my friend - I hope you will never be in a situation where you think - "I wish I had a gun..."

That's well said.

I do enjoy stories about armed, violent criminals losing their lives. They deserved to be put down like rabid dogs. They're hateful, hate-filled, parasitic creatures, and deserve to have their predatory lives cut short.

Don Gwinn
May 4, 2003, 09:56 PM
Geez. If a legal gun is a gun you got fingerprinted and asked the Sherriff for permission to buy, then I don't own any. And I live in Illinois, a borderline police state (and I'm not engaging in hyperbole--it fits an objective description pretty closely.) No offense, but I find that definition a little silly. A THR member who bought a gun over the internet or at a gun show without asking the Police Chief for permission or getting ink all over his fingers is not a criminal or a bad person.



And while I'm sounding mean and heartless, if you expect me to act sorrowful over the death of a guy who pointed a gun at his own chest and pulled the trigger, you should have a chair. It will be a long wait. If that's cold, so be it. Bad, awful, mean, nasty things are happening every day to good people who do nothing to bring them on themselves. Children are being beaten by their parents. People are finding out they have colon cancer. Some poor fool just got married to my sister yesterday. For all these people, I have compassion.

In the midst of all this genuine suffering by genuine innocents, a well-meaning friend comes to me and asks if I can't spare some compassion for an idiot who intentionally caused himself to suffer? Well, there's none to spare. If he doesn't like it, tough. He made his choice.

Honestly, when did we decide that it's a good idea to reward stupidity and carelessness with human life by indulging the Persecuted Victim Complex so carefully nurtured by so many people who work tirelessly day and night to kill themselves?
For goodness' sake, you defined a game of Russian Roulette as "still an accident." Still an accident? How is it possible that you think a deliberate act can be described as an accident? Is murder an accident, or is it only an accident when you kill yourself?

Mastrogiacomo
May 4, 2003, 10:42 PM
Sorry you got off on the wrong side of the bed -- for the past 20 years or so. :uhoh: I guess you're incapable of getting the meaning of a legal gun so I spell it out for you -- how about this: a legal gun means you have a lawful right to buy, purchase, own and handle. Criminals obviously don't get that right since they make a career of breaking the law and I follow it. That means I get the right to walk into a gun shop and buy whatever my permit allows and they can't. Clear enough? No, you don't have to ask the Chief of Police for permission to buy it, unless you want to. I don't. But I do have to ask permission to obtain a permit so I can legally purchase a handgun. I guess you don't have to do that either. Glad I don't have friends like you. I have a little more compassion for people -- deserved or not -- as I hope any God loving person would...but that's me...stupid as I may come across to people like yourself who know it all. :scrutiny:

Admiral Thrawn
May 4, 2003, 11:30 PM
Glad I don't have friends like you. I have a little more compassion for people -- deserved or not -- as I hope any God loving person would...but that's me...stupid as I may come across to people like yourself who know it all.

Do it for the children.

JimP
May 4, 2003, 11:35 PM
Magg....You've got to be kidding me.

Not every state makes you beg like a child to exercise a lawful right. No offense, but you seriously need to rethink that "legal gun" stuff; you're falling into the rhetoric of the anti's.

pax
May 4, 2003, 11:41 PM
Tone down the rhetoric, people. On The High Road, we attack the argument, not the person.

pax,
Moderator

Don Gwinn
May 5, 2003, 09:17 AM
Look, I warned you that it might sound mean and heartless to you. You read it anyway. I did not attack you, nor did I insult you. I made a statement and I asked a question. Simple as that.

I apologize for mistaking what you meant, but this is what you posted:
I obtained my gun legally like everyone on this board--gave fingerprints, submited to a background check, petetioned the Chief of police, etc.
Rightly or wrongly, this gave me the impression that you had to petition the Chief for permission to buy each gun. I know that is done in some jurisdictions, so it didn't seem an unreasonable conclusion. I do, in fact, have to get a FOID card in order to qualify to buy a firearm legally in this state. The difference between us is that you seem to think that this is a good idea.


My question to you still stands: Would you please explain to me how shooting oneself while playing Russian Roulette is an accident?
The way I was taught, an accident is unintentional. If the control arm breaks on a truck and it runs you over on the sidewalk, that's an accident. If you jump in front of a bus, you committed suicide. You got exactly what you wanted, so no compassion will be forthcoming.

Too bad you don't want to be friends with people like me. . . . I have lots of friends like you.

Bonker
May 5, 2003, 09:44 AM
I learned long ago that some people are driven solely by emotion. Unfortunately, all the logic in the world won't sway them. You might as well be speaking Chineese.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see"


On the other hand, I think it's important to present your case at every opportunity. Don't do what the Rebublicans used to do and ignore attacks just because they are ridiculous because anything repeated enough times becomes fact if it isn't met head on with the truth.
Plus, it's fun to make the lefties quickly change the subject over and over when they realize their arguements are based on bumper stickers and don't hold any water :)

Joe Demko
May 5, 2003, 12:04 PM
I'll start believing that steaming pile of horse dung that the lefties/democrats/liberals/antis are emotion-driven and "we" aren't when I no longer see threads getting locked on gun boards due to the participants getting their collective knickers in a wad.
Try this. Run a search here on Ak-47 or M-16. Look at how all the cool, logical, gun-owning, right-thinking, Republican-voting, I-believe-in-Jesus-and George W. Bush conservatives/republicans/pro2A's get overwrought arguing over which is better. Some of those threads just drip with anger and vituperation.
"They" belive one thing and "we" believe another, but we both tell all the same lies about each other.

cratz2
May 5, 2003, 12:41 PM
I rarely get on a soapbox and I like to think that I never stray into the realm of preachy (apart from my family) but everytime a thread with a sad gun-related death comes along I want to slap about 3/4ths of posters across the face and scream 'The High Road people! If you want to post nonsensically like this, go to GlockTalk or some place where these thoughts are embraced.'

Unfortunately there are even a couple of moderators that fall in this category, Mods that otherwise are good, knowledgable folks that I agree with 99% of the time. This really makes you, and us as a group, look very uncaring. You are certainly entitled to your freedom of speech but this website is supposed to exist primarily to continue and extend the right to keep and bare arms, you folks are doing nothing to acomplish these goals and surely run off fringe folks everytime they read something like this.

Stepping down from the pulpit... :uhoh:

Bonker
May 5, 2003, 01:45 PM
Golgo-13 you are mistaking the style of arguing with the foundation behind it.
I can get all worked up and emotional when I argue but my points will still be based on fact, reason, and logic.
Lefties startt he game with "logic" based on emotion (save the children!). They can be calm and rational when the speak but still devoid of logic.

Joe Demko
May 5, 2003, 02:07 PM
Really? Logic in arguments here? Check any of the multitudinous 9mm vs .45 threads. Check almost every thread in the political forum. Not much there qualifies as either Aristotlean or Modern logic. There is, however, a lot of ranting about "we are right and they are wrong, therefore they are evil;" just like you'll find in quantity over at Democratic Underground. Logic is in just as short supply on the right as it is on the left.

Jedi_7.62
May 5, 2003, 02:29 PM
I must confess sometimes when reading about "accidental shootings" I think and sometimes say things I shouldn't like clean up the gene pool.

This is wrong and I admit I shouldn't think this way but when these actions lead to atacks on us and what we believe in it is hard to resist.

Don't get me wrong I will always cheer when when a bad guy gets it.... I despise anyone who would pray on or victimise the weaker or less defensible........

I think sometimes we need to consider what led to the action "accident" not just the result.

Russian roulette accident...yes they chose but what led them there? Is there a greater tragedy somwhere in the untold story?


Maybe they were fooling around and didn't think it was loaded...No this is no excuse but If no one ever taught them responsibility where does the real blame lie?

I am by far no leftist or liberal by any means but sometimes we including my self can be cold and insensitive and maybe a little short sighted but think why?


Just my 2 cents and something to think about.

If you enjoyed reading about "My response to a bigot" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!