[Doug S]

I’m waiting on a Yugo Underfolder scheduled to arrive next week, and in the meantime I thought I’d take the old SAR-1 out. I put 100 rounds through the SAR-1, but on the 77th round had a malfunction. This surprised me, as I’ve not previously had a malfunction with this gun. At first I thought it was a failure to feed because a live round appeared to have hit just below the chamber on the feed ramp. I popped this live round out and tried to feed another, and this one also hit below the feedramp and failed to chamber. This prompted me to take a better look, and I noticed that there was a fired casing still in the chamber. Evidently this round had failed to extract. On closer inspection, I noticed that this round had no “lip” (unsure of the proper word) around the head of the casing for the extractor to grab. At first I thought that maybe the casing was broken, but after I got my flashlight out, I could see that the casing was intact. I used the cleaning rod to knock the case out and to my surprise the head stamp read 539 and 05 (instead of Wolf 7.62x39). The casing is also slightly longer than 7.62x39, and it appears that pressure has caused the casing to expand abnormally. Here are a couple of pictures. The ammo was newly purchased as of last weekend. I purchased a 1000 round case of Wolf 122gr hp. I just opened the case, and it is the only 7.62x39 that I have, so I couldn’t have mixed it up. I loaded the magazines from the freshly opened ammo at the range. Also, I have no idea as to what caliber this round is from. I’ve never heard of 539 / 05. Anyone have any ideas? Could my gun have been damaged? What caliber was this round? I assume it must have been similar to 223, but really don’t know. Afterward, I checked the barrel which appeared fine, and fired the last 20 rounds from a Hungarian tanker magazine without any problems.

[Cacique500]

http://www.igman.com/ammunition/codes/5/539-Russia.html

Looks like Russian Tula...I'd give Wolf a call...

and another source that confirms the first:

http://www.ak-47.net/ammo/headstamps.html

[Doug S]

Thanks for the info. Does this mean that the round was in fact 7.62x39? If so, what explains the difference in length and the lack of a "lip" at the top around the head? Thanks again for any info.

[Surat]

:eek:
Only thing I can think of is that it's a 7.62x39 that didn't do through the case forming process right. Skipped a step somehow where the rim is formed. I'd hazard a guess that they are swaged into shape and this one missed that part. With the shortage of 7.62x39 that's apparantly going around (take you pick on the explination) maybe that one slipped through quality control. Perhaps it was stray one from military production that stayed in a bin/barrel/cart and Ivan Ivanovich never noticed as it made it's way down the line. I notice the neck is longer then a starndard case. Maybe missed the trim to correct length too.

Speaks wonders for the old AK reliability/safety that everything hung together. I imagine that can't be healthy to fire one through rifles.

Remids me of the Army's admonishment to inspect ammo before loading it in a magazine.

[Doug S]

I will most certainly inspect better before loading in the future, but still I don't really know how I missed it. I had my son with me, and I think I was more focused on watching him than on the ammo as I loaded it. Thanks for the responses.

[Dr.Rob]

That's just... bizarre.

Someone missed a a step.

[Kurush]

That's crazy. I don't understand how the AK could have gone into battery and fired with a case that long.

[rockstar.esq]

I think that falls into the stuff happens category. At the least, it is the proper caliber so damage to your rifle is unlikely at the worst it doesn't inspire confidence. So far nobody has complained about "cheap ammo" which I'm glad about given the fact that I've had premium ammunition with dud primers and top end hollowpoints that wouldn't feed through anything. I hope this doesn't happen again all the same. Thanks for the unbiased post.

[jonnyc]

I hope Wolf offers you plenty to "buy" that case back.

[Wes Janson]

Just goes to show ya the reliability of the AK.

[boxcab]

Something seems fishy. If the case just missed a step or two, why the different head stamp? Differnt head stamp, different manufacturer, different ammo?

Take another read of Cacique500's post.

Maybe a previous shooter found the bad ammo and left it at the range; Doug S mistook it for his own while loading the mag.

Curious.

- Boxcab

[mete]

Looks like the case missed the operation to machine the EXTRACTOR GROOVE to give it proper terminology. The different headstamp may be a military designation and it got mixed with civilian ammo. Yes , things happen !

[hksw]

I'm guessing that someone found a case that fell out of the forming process after being drawn and stamped from a previous batch and then threw it into the bin after the exctractor groove cutting process of another batch.

[1 old 0311]

Did you try www.akforum.net or www.akfiles.com Both sites have a lot of hard core AK guys.

[Doug S]

Maybe a previous shooter found the bad ammo and left it at the range; Doug S mistook it for his own while loading the mag.


I actually contemplated this, but I just don't remember seeing anything on the table when I sat my stuff down. The first thing I do (at the outdoor range) is to make sure that my table is clean before placing my stuff on the table.

Did you try www.akforum.net or www.akfiles.com Both sites have a lot of hard core AK guys.

Yes, I have this posted over on the AK forum also.

[DMK]

Something seems fishy. If the case just missed a step or two, why the different head stamp? Differnt head stamp, different manufacturer, different ammo?No, not fishy at all. They make Wolf commercial and military contract ammo in the same factories. It's quite possible for the cases to get mixed.

They do that in the U.S. too. A little while back somone posted here about U.S. GI contract Lake City headstamps on his brand new ATK/American Eagle ammo.

[Andras]

I had the same thing happen to me with a CCI Blazer .45 FMJ. The case was the correct size, but it lacked the extractor groove. I had to poke it out with a pen.

see attachment

[BoySetsTheFire]

I've had problems with Wolf too. Primers keep blowing back. Last week, a primer cap blew back into the receiver and dropped into the trigger group. This stopped my SKS cold.

Wolf was kind enough to offer to pay for pickup and replace/refund. But I only had 120 rounds left and figured I'd shoot them off.

Also, I get much tighter groups with the Winchester USA ammo.

[rangerruck]

whattha...it looks like a wrong round, not onlyfor 762.39 but that it is unfinished.

[Husker1911]

I'd never trust my life to Wolf ammunition................

[Doug S]

I spoke to someone at Wolf today concerning the unfinished round. This individual stated that my chances were better of hitting the lottery than getting a round like the one pictured. He seemed to think that the round was somehow unfinished, and he indicated that it was a 7.62x39 caliber. By indicated, he said that the round looked like at 7.62x39 and that there wouldn’t be any other caliber round that would look so similar. He asked if it chambered and fired okay. He asked if the gun functioned okay afterward. The answer to these questions were, yes. He then asked if I would send the round back to them so that he could show it to their people. He added that the factory is very careful about such things, and that they would want to see the round. He said that a call tag would be sent to me, and offered me a free t-shirt for my trouble. Also, he didn’t think that I would find any other such rounds mixed into my case. He stated that he would exchange the ammo if I wanted, though. When I said that I would probably just keep it, he said that if I should find any others that they would replace the ammo. Still, he thought that the chances of finding another one were slim to none. I’m not sure what I think about the way Wolf handled this situation. Since the gun seems undamaged, and the chance of getting another unfinished round, not likely, I guess that they handled it okay. If truth be told, I would have preferred some new ammo to the t-shirt.

[EddieCoyle]

That's funky. I too find it amazing (but not surprising) that the AK would chamber and fire such a round.

I believe that the extractor groove is formed, not cut or machined. The fact that the unfinished round is a bit longer bears this assuption out: When the groove is formed, it draws material from the case, shortening the OAL.

[Snake Eyes]

If truth be told, I would have preferred some new ammo to the t-shirt.

Why didn't you take them up on their offer to replace your ammo then? :confused:

Or was it that you wanted MORE ammo FREE? if this is the case, do you truly believe that to be fair?:confused:

[Creeping Incrementalism]

I'm guessing that someone found a case that fell out of the forming process after being drawn and stamped from a previous batch and then threw it into the bin after the exctractor groove cutting process of another batch.

Probably the most likely scenario, or else the case just got hung up somewhere during the military run, then worked it's way loose during the civillian run, but after the forming of the groove. How else could you get casings from two different production runs in the same lot?

When I said that I would probably just keep it, he said that if I should find any others that they would replace the ammo. Still, he thought that the chances of finding another one were slim to none. I’m not sure what I think about the way Wolf handled this situation. Since the gun seems undamaged, and the chance of getting another unfinished round, not likely, I guess that they handled it okay. If truth be told, I would have preferred some new ammo to the t-shirt.

Man, that case is a collector's piece like some double-headed coin. I wouldn't trade it back to them except for good money. If they can't figure it out from your pictures, then I can't see how handling it would make any difference. Have you sent it off yet? If not, auction it off. A free t-shirt. pfff...

[Doug S]

Or was it that you wanted MORE ammo FREE? if this is the case, do you truly believe that to be fair?

Snake Eyes,

Fair? Nope, that's why I didn't expect it, or ask for it. Suspicious type, are we? They offered the shirt "for my trouble" in sending the round back, but yes I would have preferred a free box of ammo "for my trouble". I just can't see myself walking around in a Wolf ammo t-shirt. I can on the other hand, "see myself" shooting another box of Wolf ammo. That said, free stuff wasn't the issue, never was. Please don't make it so:scrutiny: .

CI,

No I haven't sent the round back yet.

[Thin Black Line]

This is why I've been writing over and over in the rifle section to "inspect
your cartridges" before use.

My personal favorite was a PMC cartridge that was missing part of the
primer cap --just enough left for the firing pin to set it off, not enough
to keep it in the pocket. Wouldn't that have been bad to have some
gas blow back in your face???

Then there was the A-Merc 9mm that came right out of the factory
box and had the bullet fall out of the case and the powder spill out.

Look at and, yes, please squeeze the charmin......

[Double Naught Spy]

Right, but it isn't just a budget ammo deal, but any ammo. I have gotten a hydrashok with crushed shoulders. I have seen a Winchester 9mm and South African 5.56 with upside down primers. I have seen crooked slugs in various brands, none of which would feed. I should not happen, but it does, but not very often.

The attached file is of an S&B round, 9mm ball ammo that the guy paired up with me as a partner had in his ammo. He noticed it as it would not feed into his magazine. It was his second week in a row at TR and said it was the second roudn like that he had found in two different cases of S&B.

---

Just curious, why are the primer strikes in the originally pictures wolf ammo comparison so completely different?

[the naked prophet]

The lack of an extractor groove and the different headstamp give a clue as to its purpose - it may actually be a proof testing round for rifle manufacture. At various points in the manufacture of a rifle, it may be necessary to test not only the fit into the chamber but other things as well - these rounds are collectors items in some calibers like .30-06 from the development of the Garand and such, as well as the manufacturing process.

Just one more possibility.

[hksw]

Man, that case is a collector's piece like some double-headed coin.

My thoughts, too. I'd also probably keep it. I have a quarter in my small coin collection that wasn't grooved on the edges.

[Thin Black Line]

There are some unusual rds that come mixed in larger batches from time to
time. Kind of like the Israeli 7.62 soft point match ammo (1960s) that came
in with the surplus ball I bought. Had a friend who found a whole bunch of
romanian 7.62 match as well.

However, wasn't this wolf in 20 rd boxes???

[Doug S]

I've had several people mention that I should keep the round as a collectors item. Maybe I will keep it. Yes, the round was from a case of 20 round boxes of Wolf ammo.

[Creeping Incrementalism]

The attached file is of an S&B round, 9mm ball ammo that the guy paired up with me as a partner had in his ammo. He noticed it as it would not feed into his magazine. It was his second week in a row at TR and said it was the second roudn like that he had found in two different cases of S&B.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=42688&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1153776285


Do you have a higher resolution image than that? It looks like it is growing a baby cartridge at the top.

[MAUSER88]

It looks like that was indeed an 7.62 x39mm. Look at the primer, it's flatend out a sure sign of overpressure which could cause the case to stretch out. I had that happen to a .308 round. I know it had the extractor lip when I loaded it into a magazine. It came out looking just like yours.

[leadcounsel]

I saw something very similar in a box that another guy had at the range.

It was a box of American made .45 ACP made by one of the big makers like Winchester or Remington. I forget the maker, but the bullet fed for the guy and he didn't notice it until he collected his brass. The rim was much too large

[MyRoad]

Does anyone know the total volume of 7.62x39 Wolf puts out anually? I suspect they are the #1 worldwide producer, making millions of rounds. Things go wrong from time to time.

This picture is of Wolf 7.62x54R - nothing wrong with the chamber on my Mosin Nagant, I shot about 60 rounds that day, and noticed this when I was picking up the brass at the end.
http://www.xlr8nrg.com/images2/54R-cracked.jpg

[Double Naught Spy]

Do you have a higher resolution image than that? It looks like it is growing a baby cartridge at the top.

Nope, sorry. That 'baby' is more like a nipple that then got jacketed.

[hksw]

Or the soft armor penetrating 'inverted hollow point'. AKA, 'the outie'.

[Kurush]

I ordered "Kalashnikov, the Arms and the Man" by Edward Clinton Ezell last week and it arrived today. While I was paging through it I noticed a diagram depicting a cartridge identical to the one in the OP, with the headstamp "539 81". The author reports that he has never seen one and has only the drawing to go by. Doug S if you have a caliper could you take a measurement of the case length, that would help confirm it.

I am teeming with jealousy now :D
I will try to scan or at least photograph the diagram asap.

[Doug S]

karush,

Very interesting. Sorry, I do not have a caliper.

[Kurush]

Here's the diagram:
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/kuruj/diagram.jpg

[Doug S]

Wow, very interesting. Thanks for the picture.

[hksw]

Yeah, very interesting.

[Dr.Rob]

539 is the Tula headstamp... 05 is the year of MFG... if the 81 headstamp pictured above is correct.

Sounds like you may indeed have a collector's item. And Tula is still making rimless cartidges for some unknown rifle. (cue spooky Russian spy music)