[RM]

Just wondering what is the appeal of Makarovs? Fit and finish aren't that great. Barrel is too short for a good service pistol. And the caliber is anemic. Please enlighten me as to what am I missing.

[George Hill]

1. Cheap aquisition.
2. Solid construction.
3. Combat proven.
4. Caliber is between .380 and 9MM... not that anemic.
5. Ammo can be found cheap.
6. Despite bad trigger and sights, it's surprisingly accurate.
7. Sized appropriately, it's good for CCW use and fun to shoot.
8. Lots of aftermarket for it.
9. Easy to work on.
10. If you pooch it up too much or give it away, you can just go get another one.
11. For the price, why the heck not? There are worse things to blow a hundred bucks on.

[Dr.Rob]

an all steel well made eastern bloc pistol for under $200 was a bargain.

That's the main allure.

You couldn't set up tooling to make a Mak in the US for that kind of coin. As far as fit and finish the East German guns put all others to shame.

My main beef is it's large for a 'small caliber' pistol and the sights are tiny.

[longeyes]

Price, obviously. Great bargain.

Built-like a tank. Steel. Military quality.

Simplicity: what, 27 parts, something like that? Fewer even than a Glock.

Accurate. Fixed barrel.

Very easy to disassemble and clean.

Safety/decocker, 1911-style, makes it good for carry if desired.

Nine rounds close to .38spl power.

The mystique of the "east." If you can't be James Bond, you can feel like a KGB agent.

[alamo]

Fit and finish aren't bad and as George Hill notes the caliber is not what most would consider "anemic". Simple, highly reliable and inexpensive (although not as cheap as they used to be not long ago).

The EG models are the best and usually have great DA trigger pulls. With some minor work you can easily do yourself, the DA trigger pull on Bulgarians can be lightened considerably. I've done it and so have many others.

[Snake Eyes]

The fixed barrel is really the main selling point, IMHO. People often compare Maks to Walther or Bersa, but this is a false comparison. The Mak will outshoot both of those guns with their floating barrel designs.

The real comparison to the Mak is the SIG 230/232, which also utilizes a fixed barrel. When you compare the two, you understand just what "pretty" costs: the price difference between the two.

[EddieCoyle]

The fixed barrel is really the main selling point, IMHO. People often compare Maks to Walther or Bersa, but this is a false comparison. The Mak will outshoot both of those guns with their floating barrel designs.

The real comparison to the Mak is the SIG 230/232, which also utilizes a fixed barrel. When you compare the two, you understand just what "pretty" costs: the price difference between the two.

If your PPK has a floating barrel, it's broken. The Walther PPK has a fixed barrel; and no, a Makarov will not outshoot it. The Mak is a great gun for the money but let's not get carried away.

[steveracer]

If you are a new shooter, and want a wheelgun, get a Smith Model 10. (Or if you're bigger than me, get a GP-100)
If you are a new shooter, and want an autoloader, get a Makarov. (Or two of them, for the same price as that really nice Model 10)
I teach all my new shooters how to handle an autoloader on Makarovs.
We actually had one as a rental at my local range for a few years. It sat next to the Norinco 1911, and they both saw upwards of 50,000 rounds before retirement. (I now own the Nork, and it still shoots great.)
Anyway, it's light, easy to conceal, inexpensive, uses cheap mags, has very few parts, can be detail stripped with parts of itself, accurate, fits my 1911 belt-slide holsters, and the safety goes in the "correct" direction. My only gripe with the Mak was the firing pin is unsprung, and therefore it rattles in the tunnel. (if that was the only gripe about all my other guns, I'd be a really happy camper)
I asked my pusher what to get for $300, and he said "Two Maks". I did, and now have four. I only buy them when I find one I like on the shelf. I pick it up, and dry fire it, and if it feels good, it comes home.

[Cousin Mike]

...some people like ugly women too.

I want to shoot a Makarov, but I'm almost positive I'd never bring one home.

Can't say I never messed around with an ugly girl, either. Just never brought one home to meet the family. :D

[XavierBreath]

It's a reliable, all steel, concealable carry pistol for under $200.

[Big Gay Al]

...some people like ugly women too.

I want to shoot a Makarov, but I'm almost positive I'd never bring one home.

Can't say I never messed around with an ugly girl, either. Just never brought one home to meet the family.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I think the Mak is a beautiful looking firearm. It has elegant lines, it shoots great, and it's very close to looking like a Walther PP or PPK.

If you want an ugly gun, get a Hi-Point. THEY are UGLY!

[Big Gay Al]

The fixed barrel is really the main selling point, IMHO. People often compare Maks to Walther or Bersa, but this is a false comparison. The Mak will outshoot both of those guns with their floating barrel designs.I don't know about the Walther, or which Bersa model you're referring to, but if you're Bersa Thunder .380 barrel is floating, it's broken, take it back!

[jaysouth]

Good gun.

Remember what the Soviet doctrine was for a pistol. A badge of authority for an officer.

The gun was designed to enforce discipline. Shooting a cowardly or deserting soldier in the back of the head does not require much oomph.

[oops!]

When I got my East German, about 10 years ago, I would have put the finish up against any mass produced pistol. Now the finish is a little light from holster wear.

It is the only pistol I have ever owned that I didn't tinker with. It shot great from the start and still does after over 8 cases of ammo.

BTW, got it for $119.00, OTD in O.K. City in '95.

[Cousin Mike]

...This thread got me looking around.While most Russian pistols I found were ugly as sin (Makarov, Tokarev, Stechkin, Korovin, etc. etc.) I did manage to find a version or two of the Makarov that I did like... It's called the "MP-448 Skyph". Ever seen one available? Are they (Makarovs) usually hard to find locally? I've only seen them online.

Edited as not to take away from the point of the thread with pictures of other guns.

[M2 Carbine]

Without a doubt the best gun bargain since the first East German Makarovs were imported.
Very inexpensive, even at today's prices.
Seldom is one not totally reliable.
Highly accurate.

Extremely tough. I tried to make a new Bulgarian Makarov fail and couldn't.
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=294814

[grimjaw]

The Makarov threads always bring out interesting conversation.

Barrel is too short for a good service pistol.
Do you mean barrel or sight radius? Why have a longer barrel if the cartridge doesn't benefit from it? For instance, .45 ACP doesn't generally gain much velocity from rifle barrels.

the caliber is anemic.
9x18 Makarov is a pistol caliber. In FMJ, it's probably a decent penetrator on heavy layers of clothing like you'd find in many places where it sees use. After recently seeing a guy take five shots of .40 S&W before he dropped, I'm thinking all pistol calibers are pretty anemic.

The Walther PPK has a fixed barrel; and no, a Makarov will not outshoot it. The Mak is a great gun for the money but let's not get carried away.

Let's not overestimate an overpriced gun. :p

I haven't seen a competition between the two, so I say it's not proven. Get a prime example of each pistol (East German or Bulgarian Miltex for the Makarov), install a .380 ACP barrel in the Makarov and see what they both do with the same ammunition.

Remember what the Soviet doctrine was for a pistol. A badge of authority for an officer. The gun was designed to enforce discipline.

:scrutiny: It was designed to replace the Tokarev T-33 and still be a simple, rugged, economical combat sidearm. It operates reliably regardless of condition, although there is the danger of stuck firing pins if the firing pin channel isn't maintained. Because of its simple construction, this is easily done.

With better sights, it's a useful gun. Less than two years ago you could get them for $125-150, and they were an exceptional bargain at that price. At the going rate for Makarov PMs now, the Czech CZ82 is an equally good buy in 9x18.

jmm

[jondar]

Couldn't wait to get one. Found NIB Russian at Gun Show. Took to range. Couldn't wait to get rid of it. All the weight and metal in that gun, should have been .40 caliber instead of what it was. If YOU like 'em fine. I didn't.

[MCgunner]

I haven't seen the need to buy one, but they are bargain priced and from all accounts, function well. I don't like the feeble choice of ammo and bullets. The bullets are larger, not interchangable with .355" 9mm bullets. They measure .36 something. One in .380 would be fun and cheap, but as others say, they're a big gun for such a puny round. My Kel Tec weighs 14 ounces unloaded, is pocket sized, carries 11 rounds (13 with appropriate mags) of 9mm +P, and ain't that much more expensive than the Mak. I have no need for a Mak for carry, my P11 being 100 percent reliable and very accurate as well as more powerful, more fire power, and easier to conceal and carry.

[Hacker15E]

Where are people finding Maks these days for sub-$200?

Prices have gone way up as far as I can tell...which really reduces the appeal of the Mak.

[Tom Servo]

Just wondering what is the appeal of Makarovs? Fit and finish aren't that great. Barrel is too short for a good service pistol. And the caliber is anemic. Please enlighten me as to what am I missing.
Sure...just poke the bear, eh? :)

I picked up an Arsenal Bulgie a while back from a guy who walked into the shop with no idea what is was worth. I got him down to $100 because he couldn't tell me when (if) it had last been cleaned.

I expected it to be a "project" gun, but once I got it apart, it cleaned up easily, and despite years of neglect, I only had one spot of surface rust on the mainspring, and that wiped off easily. It's turned out to be one heck of a shooter, and pretty soon I'll be getting some decent sights installed.

Fit and finish? Not bad at all! The bluing is actually quite nice for an Eastern Bloc product, and despite the neglect, had no real blemishes. Slide/frame fit is a bit loose, but that's not an issue. This is good solid forged steel.

Actually, quite a nice-looking gun, and certainly prettier than most of those "super-ergonomic" plastic ones being churned out by the major American companies these days.

Sure, the barrel's short, but it's a blowback, and I find it to be surprisingly accurate...more than enough for a "service pistol."

As far as the caliber being anemic, it beats the heck out of a .380, which is what many people use for CCW. It's also what many LEO's use as backup. (Which always struck me as strange--my backup is there for when my primary can't do the job. I NEED a strong gun for that.)

But, when you're talking differences between handgun calibers, remember Rule #1: It's a handgun. You want real power, get a rifle. You're trading down for convenience with any pistol. Sure, I like to carry the best caliber possible, but with any, it's all about shot-placement. If I do my job, the 9x18 will do its.

http://lonelymachines.org/guns/makarov.jpg

After a bit of cleanup, she looks as good as anything on the market nowadays.

[Pilot]

The Makarov is the AK of pistols. Its an excellent sidearm for what it is, a simple, rugged and reliable last means of defense.

The Mak will out shoot a PPK any day of the week, especially with Pearce grips installed. Its more reliable than the PPK also. I've never seen a Mak jam.

[M2 Carbine]

The Walther PPK has a fixed barrel; and no, a Makarov will not outshoot it. The Mak is a great gun for the money but let's not get carried away.

Here's a couple of my 50 yard Mak targets.
Let's see what the PPK will do.:)

Standing two hands. 8x11 inch paper.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/48_yds_Bul_Arsenal_Mak.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/EG_Mak.jpg

35 yards.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/Maktestgun35yards.jpg

[Essex County]

I've gone to a realy nice Star BM, but I have owned a couple of Maks and I though very highly of them. Much more operator friendly than the PPK. I look at it this way....You can save enough by purchasing one to have enough left over to get some Very Nice gunleather to tote it around in....Essex

[RM]

M2 Carbine- nice shooting. I'm impressed.

[longeyes]

For basic self-defense the Mak is not to be sneered at. I took one to the range a few days ago and had no trouble keeping all of my shots, strong-handed, inside the head of a human silhouette target at seven yards in rapid fire. That should give any assailant a bad day.

[jibjab]

Accurate and reliable and for awhile inexpensive. Ballisticly simular to the .38 spl. from a 2" barrel, 9 rnds and faster to reload.
Mr. Camp explores the Makarov PM , http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/makarov.htm

[Mr. Tettnanger]

Here is a twist...Try to find one! I have been looking for a Bulgy Mak for over a year, with no results. I tried local, nothing! I tried phone calls to semi-local, 100 mile type search..nothing! I tried internet sales, NOTHING. SOG and I believe AIM use to have these at like $99 for bottom of the barrel or $139 for hand picked primo quality, NOTHING! I tried various gun friendly sites such, as what we enjoy here, Nothing(!*except a few really bogus prices and shoddy deals that turned me off*). I found one(2 actually) from a stand up guy on this and a few other sites, but the cost to ship, or pick up, which was over 5 hour ride, was not worth it. Finally, a friend of mine who works on the wholesale end of the gun trade who had been looking for me mentioened that the ammo is getting increasingly hard to find. He actually has not been able to get or provide a decent amount for some time. I am still looking. I kick myself for passing up a few of these before the started vanishing. Bottom line..great gun, decent caliber, durable, but not as attractive as they once were.


Mr. Tettnanger

[makarovnik]

I don't know what it is about these pistols but they ROCK! I like all com bloc weapons. I have a: russian mak, polish tt33, m44 and sks. They all perform flawlessly. I'm very picky about POA/POI, and no jamming is allowed at my house unless it's White Zombie or equivalent. These are all less than half the price of other comparable weapons. My makarov has a nice finish and black star grips. The recoil is sharp but the muzzle flip is nothing. I haven't shot a new S&W PPK but I have shot a few Manurins and Interarms. From my experience the makarov is not quite as sexy but it's more reliable, more accurate, no hammer/slide bite and it has an external slide lock. Okay, flame me.

[ugaarguy]

Mr. Tettnanger,

Pretty good Bulgie Mak prices here;
http://www.kyimports.com/amt.htm

[M2 Carbine]

M2 Carbine- nice shooting. I'm impressed.

The Makarov gets the credit.:)

There is a little difference in the accuracy of the Maks.
I've got 15 and have owned about another half dozen.
Of about the 20 I've shot all have been pretty accurate but some are exceptional with good ammo.:)

[lee n. field]

Just wondering what is the appeal of Makarovs?

I don't know any better?

Goes bang every time. I can afford one (three, actually).

...some people like ugly women too.

"personality"

mentioened that the ammo is getting increasingly hard to find.

One reason I'm holding onto my Russian .380, and looking into getting a .380 barrel for another.

[larry starling]

Cause its cheap! And alot of people can't justify paying $700-1100 for a firearm. My personal opinion is that there cheap ex-com bloc guns and I wouldn't own one.:barf:

[alamo]

Well.....RM. A lot of people have tried to answer your question. Do you have anything to say?

[M2 Carbine]

Cause its cheap! And alot of people can't justify paying $700-1100 for a firearm. My personal opinion is that there cheap ex-com bloc guns and I wouldn't own one.

There's cheap and then there's inexpensive.
Makarovs are inexpensive.
There is nothing cheap about them.

A lot of people that own multi thousand dollar pistols and know firearm quality and function buy Makarovs (plural).:)

[alamo]

Cause its cheap! And alot of people can't justify paying $700-1100 for a firearm. My personal opinion is that there cheap ex-com bloc guns and I wouldn't own one.


That's good to hear. That way they'll be more of them left for those who are knowledgeable enough to recognize a quality pistol at a bargain price. Keep spreading the word...

[jon_in_wv]

Not only can a lot of people not afford a 700+ dollar gun, but the MAK is capable of outshooting a lot of them. I think it's hard to explain what I love so much about it, but for 199 bucks for mine I thought it would be foolish to not give it a try. I wouldn't sell it for double what I paid for it.

[cookekdjr]

Lots of people have already said it better than me. IMO the Mak is one of the best-designed pistols in history. Its quite accurate, reliable (to say the least), and simple to build and maintain. The caliber is a little weak, but it squeezes every bit of power you can get out of a blow-back design. I had a Bulgarian circle 10 I sold to fund another project. I still miss that gun.
Of course, part of the attraction is the whole KGB/Stasi/Secret Police thing.
Its easy to fault the gun; its very heavy for its size and under-powered compared to similar-sized pistols today. The sights are rudimentary and the trigger is nothing to write home about.
But in the end its stone-cold-reliable, accurate, easy to use and fairly compact. I'm sure I'll buy another some day.
-David

[STAGE 2]

Fit and finish aren't that great.

By who's standards? They probably arent as good as a $2000 dollar pistol, but then again who knows what that $2000 gun will look like after 40+ years. I have a mirror finish on both of my east german mak's and they are as tight as any other standard production service pistol.

Barrel is too short for a good service pistol.

According to what? I can get excellent groups out of my 2 maks, certianly acceptable for any kind of situation that a service pistol would see. In fact, one of the reasons that people by maks, other than their exceedingly boring reliability, is the fact that they are ridiculously accurate for the size barrel that they have.

And the caliber is anemic.

Tell that to all of the people that are 6 feet under a la 9mm mak. Its not a .44 mag, but its not very far behind the "regular" 9mm which is understood to be a perfectly acceptable defensive caliber. Add to that the fact that a majority of factory mak loads are on the hot side and your anemic analysis is purely bunk.


Please enlighten me as to what am I missing.

A couple of questions for you. Have you ever held or shot a mak? I'm guessing no judging by the questions you asked. Have you ever done any research on the mak? Again I'm guessing no based on your "conclusions".

As a result, my only answer to you is... everything.

[Destructo6]

It goes "bang" every time I pull the trigger. That's very high on my list of priorities for a firearm.

Once past the reliability, it's pretty accurate, relatively small and inexpensive. My 1962 E. German Makarov was just under $200 about 8 years ago.

[The_Shootist]

Maks rule! I bought mine for (Bulgy circle 10) about $ 200 after my Bersa Thunder self destructed after only 1200 rounds.

No problem with durability from the Mak. Easy to slip into a pocket, mags are cheap and reliable (like everything else about this pistol) and easy to clean.

Extremely accurate - if you don't like the sights, daub a bit of "Testors" flourescent model paint (easily enough obtained at Wal-Mart) to increase the visibility of the front sight. Regardless, I can put 9 shots in quick succession into the center of a target at 7 yds, which is more then accurate for a SD situation. Then reload another 8 rounds faster than I could recharge a snubby.

I question how anemic the cartridge is - with Silver Bear 115gr JHP's, you are getting around 1050 fps at the muzzle, which is approaching 9mm territory and well above .38spl +P or standard .380 ammo. Yet people have been using those rounds for years in successful self-defense situations.

I think for "summer carry" (ie shirts/t-shirt/thin layer type weather) down here in Texas, they are more than adequate.

[longeyes]

Give the Commies credit for one thing: they do firearms right. The Mak is the proletarian pistol par excellence, a true EveryMan handgun. Every honest American should own one. Once you get into single action you can shoot this piece very quickly, very accurately. The only "flaw," for me, is the magazine release, which I find myself struggling with vis-a-vis the typical mag release button on the other guns I own.

[Niner]

But.... outside of a 1911, of all C&R type pistols, I would like to have one to hand if I really needed to defend myself at close range.

[Borachon]

M2 Carbine,
I own a commercial IJ70. I know the joy of Mak ownership. So I gotta ask....were you ill on the day you shot the 50 yard target? I mean...you're all over the place man! :D It's okay to admit if you have palsy or something. ;)

[Big Gay Al]

The only "flaw," for me, is the magazine release, which I find myself struggling with vis-a-vis the typical mag release button on the other guns I own.Funny you should mention that. As I understand it, when the USSR was looking for a pistol to replace the Tokarov TT-33, one of the things they stipulated was they didn't want the same type of mag release button that it had. Apparently there had been a problem in the field with soldiers accidently hitting the mag release button and dropping the magazine before they had even emptied it. So, the Makarov went to the standard "European" style mag release. Similar to what's on the Walther P-38.

[M2 Carbine]

I gotta ask....were you ill on the day you shot the 50 yard target? I mean...you're all over the place man! It's okay to admit if you have palsy or something.

I was pretty steady but I think the little man kept moving.
I thought it was pretty sporting of me to give him a warning shot.:D

I was just writing about that on a Kimber thread and it applies to the Makarov also.

"Truthfully, since my shooting isn't what it used to be, I credit the guns with the ability to shoot groups at least half the size of what I'm shooting.
In other words I'm sure my Kimber Ultras could shoot at least 3-4 inches at 50 yards."

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=567620

[RM]

Yes, I appreciate all of the replies. Obviously, this gun stirs some strong feelings in many THR members. I think I will try and fondle one at my next gun show to learn a little more about the Mak firsthand. I'm actually surprised by the number of people who took an interest in this topic.

[Big Gay Al]

What can we say, the Mak is a popular firearm in the USA. If you don't believe me, check out http://www.makarov.com . You may find it interesting.

[Cousin Mike]

I'm going to have to get my hands on one too...
If they're really that accurate and inexpensive then I guess there isn't much to lose. I still want to know if anyone's ever seen that MP-448 Skyph version of the makarov. If I'm going to buy one, that's the one I want.

I don't know if I'll ever be converted on the looks of the thing though :p

[oweno]

Between my Bulgie and my E. German Maks, I've got maybe 3,000 rounds through them - never had a failure of any kind.

I'm also impressed by any piece that even I can detail strip - and get back together. Heck, if *I* can do it, anybody can. Go to makarov.com for how-to - with color pictures yet.

[wrangler5]

I have under $1K invested in my 3 Maks - a Russian (my shooter, with Pearce grip), an East German (my carry gun - bone stock) and a Bulgarian with the 22 conversion barrel and slide. They are my favorite pistols to shoot, both in 9mm and 22.

Like M2, I can keep nearly all shots on the 12" square steel plates our range has at 50 yards, one handed or two handed. And I can shoot several hundred rounds without having my hand and wrist start to hurt. For comparison, I have a "real" 9mm, a KelTec P11, which is shorter, lighter, and holds more rounds of more powerful ammunition. But I can't hit squat with it at long ranges, don't group nearly as tightly or shoot as quickly with it at short ranges, and can't shoot more than a dozen or two rounds comfortably. For carry, I'll go with the gun I shoot the most more accurately. And if I end up shooting my Mak at somebody (alternating hardball and hollow point in the magazine) they're likely to have a VERY bad day of it.

If you can find one to try, I'll bet you'll like it - most people do, jondar's experience to the contrary probably being the exception that proves the rule. But if you decide to get one you need to beware of Mak Acquisition Syndrome, the insidious condition which MAKES you buy more Maks. A few Mak owners seem to be immune, but most just succumb with a smile and let it take over the gun buying nodes in their brain. :) I bought my Bulgarian first, but had two East Germans within 45 days (easy to do with a C&R license - they come FedEx to your door.) Later sold one of the EGs when I found the Russian military model (also C&R) to balance my "collection."

[Dr.Rob]

If I came across another East German Mak I'd buy it... they are neat pistols, and I don't even like DA/SA guns.

As far as not buying "communist" stuff... I see no issue in making a capitalist buck off the demise of iron curtain.

[jrou111]

What other gun can you use to open bottles with? :D

[ezypikns]

you won't ever go back.



sorry.

[Deaf Smith]

Maks may be inexpensive, but they are not cheep.

I've owned a pretty fair number of pistols, maybe 4 Walther PP/PPKs/PPK and I can say the Mak beats that weapon hands down. James Bond is bs, but the Mak is a pretty good sidearm.

If I was short of bucks, but I needed a stone reliable self defense pistol that I could conceal all year round, the Mak would be number one. My EG cost me $105 bucks a while back, and I'm tempted to buy a Bulgie I saw for $200 (it was in excellent condition and I'd get the .22 unit if I did buy it.)

The EG Mak's trigger is great! Better than a Smith 3ed Gen auto and way way ahead of any PP series Walther or Hsc or Mauser or SIG 230.

[lawson]

i have an bulgarian makarov as part of my collection of military surplus guns. it might not get as much range time as my carry guns, but it's a great gun.

as a revolver guy, i appreciate that the mak will go bang every time you pull the trigger.

it's a true garbage eater as well, it's functioned perfectly with the cheapest and nastiest surplus ammo i can find, and that is a very good quality in an autoloader. i've had autos costing twice as much that were twice as picky with ammo.

[M2 Carbine]

The Bulgarian 22 conversion.
I bought it some time back from makarov.com.

Judging by this one unit.
It feeds round nose HV bullets the best but isn't totally reliable with any ammo. It's just a conversion for plinking so that's not a big deal to me.
The magazines are crud looking. They look like they were made from scrap metal but they work OK.
It's not as accurate as the 9x18 Mak but good enough for practice.
I think it feels reasonably close to shooting the 9x18 so it should be good cheap practice for shooting the real thing.

The worst problem is it took three Maks before I found one that the conversion would fit and function on.

It's not inexpensive, in the $200 range, but like most of the 22 conversions kits it will pay for itself in ammo savings in a few bricks of 22LR.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/Mak22conversion.jpg

[jon_in_wv]

I agree with Wrangler5. I own both a KT P-11 and a MAK. The KT is lighter, more powerful, and easier to carry. The MAK is by far a better gun. I can shoot tight groups at 25 yards and it is unmatched in rapid fire. Just how enemic is 4 or 5 rounds of 115gr silver bear at 1000fps hitting you in the chest within a second?? I think thats pretty good firepower. I don't get hung up so much on "one shot stops" because if I fire it will most likely NOT be one shot.

[gbelleh]

I finally found a good deal on a very nice circle 10 Mak today. Now I have a military Russian, East German, and Bulgarian. Now to find a Chinese....