Officer with hammer down 1911 in oly


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1911_CQB
July 23, 2006, 10:04 PM
I was at the Olympia Lakefair yesterday, and I saw a police officer with a 1911 ( HAMMER DOWN!) in a blackhawk SERPA holster, with a taser ina drop leg holster right below it. I almost said something to him, as it took it a minute to sink in, I said it to my wife, and she said I was being silly. It didnt look like a Para, it was single stack...wait para makes singles....It might have been an LDA, but im not sure. Anyways..rant over.

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usp_fan
July 23, 2006, 10:24 PM
The Para LDA's have a bobbed hammer. Maybe that will help with I.D.

--usp_fan

VARifleman
July 23, 2006, 10:26 PM
I thought Para LDA's didn't have a visible hammer at all? I thought it sat flush until you pulled the trigger. Anyway, it could have been in condition 3 for some reason (I sure hope it was).

1911_CQB
July 23, 2006, 10:42 PM
damn your right, they do have bobbed hammers, so I guess he was carrying hammer down.:what:

Chupacabra
July 23, 2006, 10:48 PM
Maybe he has one of those SFS (Safe-Fast-Shooting) things installed?

Cylinder & Slide SFS System (http://www.cylinder-slide.com/sfs.shtml)

1911_CQB
July 23, 2006, 11:47 PM
Its possible I guess. Its actually the first officer i have seen in oly with a 1911. All the others I have seen had Glocks. Including the disagreeable officer who didnt like my CCW being on me when he responded to my fender bender. ( hes told me, "reach for it and it will hurt boy", not exactly a professional way to do things. The deputy that helped me change my tire that was blown out in the accident was straight up cool about it, casue the older fellow wanted me to disarm, and the deptuty told him basically to go away, and helped me get my car up and running. He was a cool guy...srry off topic)

Josh Aston
July 24, 2006, 12:03 AM
I'm pretty sure some of the older LDAs didn't have bobbed hammers.

Dave Workman
July 24, 2006, 12:19 AM
"Reach for it and it will hurt, boy?"

You know, that could be construed as a threat. Did you get the name of this knucklehead? When did this happen?

As for packing a 1911 hammer down, my guess is that it's a guy with the safe carry system installed.

I was over on the northwest hiker's forum last week after the trail killings and mentioned that I carry cocked and locked sometimes on the trail. Alas, the list moderator didn't have a clue what that meant and I had to explain it to him.

recall the tale of the fellow who was packing cocked and locked and a woman saw that and inquired, "But isn't that dangerous?"

And the reply: "You're damn right it is."

Ah, one must appreciate those who reach the point by the shortest possible route...or least expense of words

U.S.SFC_RET
July 24, 2006, 12:33 AM
Option #1. Probably had the hammer down with the chamber unloaded?
Option #2. Probably had the hammer down with the chamber loaded?

Flip a coin.

Probably had the hammer down to put at ease the sheeple who have no idea what a 1911 pistol is, all they see is the hammer cocked back. " Officer why is your hammer pulled back? Isn't that damgerous?" I can imagine having to explain to citizens at the lakefair several times, "Ma-am This is safe" (citizen)Not it's not the hammer is back........:rolleyes:
BTW I have been to the lake fair and that strip of land is pretty narrow and packed with people.

wadcutter45
July 24, 2006, 12:44 AM
A Colt Series 80 is safe to carry hammer down on a live round.

mp510
July 24, 2006, 12:52 AM
Not all Para LDA models feature a bobbed hammer. The 7.45 , which is the single stack LDA model with a 5" barrel and otherwie traditional 1911 appearance. However the hammer is round- not traditional 1911 or commander type.
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/pix/Para_Ord_745_LDA_350.jpg

I believe that the best we can do know is hope for the best, and fear for the worst.

SAG0282
July 24, 2006, 12:56 AM
"reach for it and it will hurt boy"


In the future, please make note of that officer's badge # or name and file a complaint with that agency. About a month ago a State Patrol officer pulled me over for an HOV lane violation and upon coming to window I informed him that I had *gasp* TWO guns! Never mind that carrying two loaded guns concealed is legal in WA state, or that it was a SIG and a GLOCK and not a Lorcin or similar, or that I was licensed and up front with him. He began literally yelling at me, spitting in my face as he did so, and threatened to take me to jail for the felony the 2nd gun constituted. We made it through the traffic stop and a few hours later I paid his supervisor a visit at Bellevue's office. That officer was very nice, but also thought it was illegal to have a 2nd, loaded gun in the car. He called back a few days later after researching it, apologized, and said he'd make it known to other officers.

Whether it's because of ignorance or simply being a poor police officer, we all have a responsibility to hold officers accountable for when armed interactions are conducted unprofessionally.

1911_CQB
July 24, 2006, 04:14 AM
Yeah at the time I was just plain pissed off at the fact I got into an accident, so i guss i wasnt thinking about that, i was thinking about my JUST out of the body shop car that got smashed in the back. I wonder if it is possible to find out who it was..prolly not it was back in November, ah well, lesson learned right?

Husker1911
July 24, 2006, 04:25 AM
Especially in a military context, a condition three 1911 (hammer down, empty chamber) in a flap holster is completely understandable. A military sidearm is a last-ditch, save your heinie firearm, to be utilized after your main firearm (your rifle) has been disabled.

A sidearm is just that: when your rifle is out of action, something to withdraw from your flap holster, chamber a round, and utilize to your best advantage, while you retreat or arm yourself again with an offensive weapon. In this context, the Glock military sidearm is a nearly perfect sidearm. Leave it unchambered until needed, when you remove it from your flap holster and chamber a round. For gosh sake, don't carry the darn thing actually loaded!

:evil:

gunsmith
July 24, 2006, 07:23 AM
they were made to be carried that way, you don't put your finger on the trigger untill you are ready to shoot.
Very simple ......but there was this DEA guy who insisted "he was the only one in the room qualified to handle this glock fotay":neener: :evil: :D

flatdog
July 24, 2006, 07:52 AM
Would someone please explain why the officers thought this was illegal. If your legal why should the number of loaded firearms in the car make a difference?

Thanks.

U.S.SFC_RET
July 24, 2006, 08:09 AM
+1 to wadcutter 45

SecuritySixShooter
July 24, 2006, 08:48 AM
Pardon my ignorance. Why is it bad to carry with the hammer down on a 1911?

71Commander
July 24, 2006, 08:48 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/tucker13/para-18-9-a.jpg

Greg L
July 24, 2006, 08:54 AM
SSS,

It won't go bang if you need to use it in a hurry. They were designed to be carried with the hammer back & the safety on.

joab
July 24, 2006, 09:06 AM
Or it may go bang when you don't want it to. There is no transfer bar on a 1911

CNYCacher
July 24, 2006, 09:33 AM
Or it may go bang when you don't want it to. There is no transfer bar on a 1911

"Transfer bar" being that which prevents the round from going off if the hammer is down and gets bumped?

1911 guy
July 24, 2006, 09:45 AM
A transfer bar is a small piece of metal that moves up between the hammer and firing pin when the trigger is pulled. It fills a small gap, allowing contact and tranfer of force to allow firing.

However, 1911's have a firing pin that is shorter than the tunnel. A hammer resting on the frame will not cause the firing pin to be in contact with the primer of a cartridge. There is a spring on the pin pushing it away from the primer. The spring is overcome by the hammer strike and inertia causes the pin to hit the primer with enough force to detonate it.

Having said that, the real reason it's Bad JuJu to lower the hammer on a loaded 1911 is human error. It's possible to have a minor slip of the finger or thumb turn into a .45 caliber hole in something that does not require or desire a hole.

HerrWolfe
July 24, 2006, 09:54 AM
Does the COLT .45 ACP model XSE have the safe hammer down feature? I believe the old army Colt 1911 model had a feature that you could let the hammer down and pull back into a safe postion that the pistol would not fire if struck. I was shown this feature on a 1911 in a gun shop. Is this on the XSE model?

Father Knows Best
July 24, 2006, 09:57 AM
the real reason it's Bad JuJu to lower the hammer on a loaded 1911 is human error. It's possible to have a minor slip of the finger or thumb turn into a .45 caliber hole in something that does not require or desire a hole.

I agree. There is simply no safe, reliable way to lower the hammer on a typical 1911 with a round in the chamber. The likelihood of a negligent discharge is just too high.

There are still those who believe in condition three carry, however, and the so-called "Israeli draw."

Father Knows Best
July 24, 2006, 10:01 AM
What a coincidence. Right after posting my comment above stating that you should never lower the hammer on a loaded 1911 because the risk of an ND is too high, I stumbled on this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=211933

I rest my case.

1911 guy
July 24, 2006, 10:19 AM
The safety catch you describe is called the "half cock" notch. It's only function is to catch the hammer in the unlikely event (I've never heard of it happening) something mechanical fails and the hammer falls. This will not catch the hammer in the case of operator error, because the trigger is being pulled and the sear is not in position to catch the hammer. Decocking, anyone?

Long story short, in the case of a properly functioning 1911, the half cock notch in the hammer is useless. It is not meant to be used by the operator, but by the pistol itself.

Ryder
July 24, 2006, 10:26 AM
Would someone please explain why the officers thought this was illegal.

Can't speak for Washington but there is some confusion regarding this in my state. Our permit is called a "Concealed Pistol Permit" (CPL). According to their theory it does not say "Pistols" (plural). The statutes do not forbid the carry of more than one handgun.

There is no requirement to inform on possession of multiple firearms here. We are required only to inform that we are armed. I've met cops that don't even know what a CPL is. They actually think it is a "CCW Permit" :rolleyes: Point is some people exist only to start arguments. The less info you give someone like that the better. They can't argue with themselves, or can they? hehe

tegemu
July 24, 2006, 10:40 AM
Perhaps his agency required that he carry his weapon in the manner that he was carrying it.

HerrWolfe
July 24, 2006, 10:42 AM
Am still nervous to carry with the hammer cocked and safety on although all folks tell me it is the safest mode. But I am also nervous to carry with the chamber empty since it then takes two hands to make it useable, other than it being a club. Perhaps a different model would suit my needs better....one that I can let the hammer down, which would be easy to pull back if needed.

I consider, right or wrong, that it is more difficult to mistakingly pull a hammer back than to mistakingly push the safety off, when holstered. When I carry the 1911 now, it is with the hammer back and safety on, but am very aware of it. Maybe that is a good thing!

When carrying my PPK/S a round is chamered but the hammer is down and requires pulling the hammer back to fire only after taking the safety off, or taking safety off then pulling trigger. This design just seems safer to me.

This issue has probably been argued over and over, so all I am looking for is perhaps the pistol that has the safer [to me] features.

1911 guy
July 24, 2006, 10:48 AM
I'm not going to get into another 4 page debate like the one that got shut down yesterday, but given the mechanics of what must happen to make a 1911 fire, it's completely safe.

1) thumb safety must be disengaged.
2) grip safety must be depressed.
3) trigger must be pulled.

If any of these three things are not happening, a 1911 will NOT fire. When decocking a 1911, however, the trigger is being pulled, the grip safety is depressed and the thumb safety has been disengaged. All that's between you and an ND is a slip of the thumb or finger.

Father Knows Best
July 24, 2006, 11:28 AM
When carrying my PPK/S a round is chamered but the hammer is down and requires pulling the hammer back to fire only after taking the safety off, or taking safety off then pulling trigger. This design just seems safer to me.

The PPK/s is a DA/SA design. It has a "decocking lever" that is designed to lower the hammer SAFELY on a loaded chamber. The intended mode of carry is with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. The first trigger pull is then double action, meaning it both cocks and fires the gun. Each cycle of the slide leaves the hammer back, so subsequent shots are single action.

There are lots of people who do feel that this design is "safer" than cocked-and-locked single actions. That first DA trigger pull is long and heavy (EXTREMELY heavy on a PPK, which is why I don't like them), but it makes it very unlikely that you will unintentionally fire the weapon. Many police departments still mandate DA/SA or DAO (double action only) pistols for carry because of the belief that it is safer than cocked-and-locked.

I must say, though, that I don't recall the PPK as having a "safety" separate from the decocking lever. Does it? I used to have one many years ago. My recollection is that it was cocked and ready to fire, or decocked via the lever, but there was no separate manual safety device. That seems pointless to me.

jondar
July 24, 2006, 02:06 PM
??? So I'm still missing something here. Are you saying that the danger is not in carrying the pistol, loaded chamber, hammer down but the danger being in the lowering the hammer on a loaded round in that it may slip out from under your thumb??

LanEvo`
July 24, 2006, 02:19 PM
??? So I'm still missing something here. Are you saying that the danger is not in carrying the pistol, loaded chamber, hammer down but the danger being in the lowering the hammer on a loaded round in that it may slip out from under your thumb??Basically, yes.

Carrying a 1911 in Condition 2 is not unsafe...but GETTING to Condition 2 can be very unsafe.

Emre

Father Knows Best
July 24, 2006, 02:28 PM
Carrying a 1911 in Condition 2 is not unsafe...but GETTING to Condition 2 can be very unsafe.

I'll take it one step further. Getting to condition 2 is indeed VERY unsafe. Once the firearm is there, however, it isn't particularly unsafe while in condition 2.

Ask youself, however, what has to happen before the gun is fired? That's right -- you have to draw the hammer back with the thumb. That's another accident waiting to happen. A broken safety notch (half cock) and/or a misplaced trigger finger can and will cause an unintentional discharge in the act of drawing the hammer back.

Standard 1911's should be carried in conditions one or three, but never two. The only 1911's that should be carried in condition two are 1911's that have been modified (such as the SFS system) for condition two, or those that aren't really 1911's (like the Para Ordnance LDA series).

1911_CQB
July 24, 2006, 04:06 PM
hell i guess they didnt all have bobbed hammers....:D

Langenator
July 24, 2006, 05:56 PM
You didn't happen to notice which PD's patch the officer was wearing, did you?

I'm not an expert (far from it) but the only PD in WA that I know of authorizing 1911s is Tacoma. Given a big event like Lakefair, they may have been getting some assistance from neighboring cities.

As for LEOs in this area carrying non-Glock pistols, I've seen a Pierce County sheriff's deputy carrying an HK USP (hammer back, safety on, incidentally) and a Lacey PD officer carrying some flavor of a S&W auto.

1911_CQB
July 24, 2006, 07:43 PM
No i didnt notice what PD he was with, he was in a gray polo shirt, with the dept on the chest( too small , couldnt read), with black 5.11s IIRC.

joab
July 24, 2006, 09:31 PM
Carrying a 1911 in Condition 2 is not unsafe...but GETTING to Condition 2 can be very unsafe.Carrying in Codition two is also unsafe. A sharp blow to the hammer, such as the gun dropping to the ground for whatever reason, could cause a discharge.

Majic
July 24, 2006, 11:15 PM
Now if a 1911 falls on it's muzzle with sufficient force it can fire, but not if it falls on the hammer.
Anyways..rant over.
Now why get upset over how someone else carries their handgun? :confused:

joab
July 25, 2006, 01:22 AM
A second problem with this condition is that the true 1911A1 does not have a firing pin block and an impact on the hammer which is resting on the firing pin could conceivably cause the gun to go off, (http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm)

Majic
July 25, 2006, 03:49 AM
Even impacting the hammer resting on the firing pin does not generate enough energy to propel the firing pin forward hard enough to set off a primer. The reason the firing pin rests further to the rear when the hammer is cocked.

1911_CQB
July 25, 2006, 04:43 PM
I am considering a LEO career after I get out of the military, and I am kicking around the idea of a ride along, and you just watch, im gonna get that clown that didnt like me having a gun...or the hammer down guy..:eek: ah well....I wonder what there position on folks retaining there CCW piece around here during a ride along. I know back home in KY , the locals didnt care. Hell they told ya how to get the mini 14 down in case he got into trouble. Ah...yo live in a rual area again...we can dream cant we.

(off topic like a mother i know, srry mods...:(....i didnt even realize it till i was done and posted...lol)

joab
July 25, 2006, 09:36 PM
I guess we will just have to agree that dropping a 1911 in condition 2 could cause a discharge and leave it at that.

winchester62
July 26, 2006, 02:30 AM
I must say, though, that I don't recall the PPK as having a "safety" separate from the decocking lever. Does it? I used to have one many years ago. My recollection is that it was cocked and ready to fire, or decocked via the lever, but there was no separate manual safety device. That seems pointless to me.

The PPK has a safety like that on a Beretta 92 or S&W auto. It is slide-mounted, decockes the gun, and makes it safe. You might be thinking of the Sig 230/232. It has a decocker that is frame-mounted and does not act as a safety. The Sig is otherwise VERY similar to the Walther.

1911_CQB
July 27, 2006, 12:18 AM
Father Knows Best ya gotta be thinking about a sig, all the walthers I know of all had safety/decocker, unless the made a variant?

RON in PA
July 27, 2006, 03:21 AM
A note on the Walther PP and PPK, They were the first of the DA/SA semis and are a bit primitive in that they lacked a firing pin block so that to prevent accidental discharge if dropped Walther advised carry with the hammer down and safety on. Also Walther advised that when decocking one should put one's thumb between the firing pin and hammer.

Could it be that the officer carrying the 1911 was carrying in condition 3 and was trained to rack slide as he drew?

BluesBear
July 27, 2006, 04:07 AM
How many times each year do we have to have to go through this BS? :banghead:

A 1911 pattern pistol with an inertia firing pin without a firing pin safety MIGHT fire if dropped on it's MUZZLE.
A 1911 pattern pistol with an inertia firing pin will NOT fire if dropped on it's hammer.
Or on it's side.

The only 1911 pattern pistol I have ever seen that did not have an inertia firing pin were some of the older Llamas.


There are several Washington departments that allow officers to carry their personal 1911 pattern pistols on duty.

1911_CQB
July 28, 2006, 07:32 PM
lol...isnt if funny how a thread can go from one subject to another....(related, but still different..)...ahh..the internet....:evil:

Father Knows Best
July 29, 2006, 05:20 PM
Father Knows Best ya gotta be thinking about a sig, all the walthers I know of all had safety/decocker, unless the made a variant?

I said that to my knowledge, the PPK does have a safety that is separate from the decocking lever. I used to have a PPK/s, and all I remember it having was a single lever on the left rear of the slide. You used that single lever to both decock the pistol AND engage the safety. If there was a separate safety mechanism, I don't remember it.

Given the nearly 20 pound pull weight (SA mode) of the trigger on that beast, I don't see that it needed any kind of manual safety. What it needed was a safety that could be engaged with the hammer back so I could just use it in SA cocked-and-locked mode.

Mortech
July 30, 2006, 01:39 AM
After doing a little research couldn't find any info on what weapons the Olmpia/Lacey/Tumwater police depts carry but did come across this blog http://olyblog.net/blog/norm . I'll try to catch up with an Olympia police detective friend of mine some time next week .

1911_CQB
July 30, 2006, 11:04 PM
I couldnt find anything online either. I guess I could be smart about it, and just ask a cop. ..the simple ways are always in front of me. I need to take some leave before I go nuts. :banghead:

Walt Sherrill
July 31, 2006, 12:12 AM
I thought that most 1911-type guns (including 1991s, etc.) have firing pin blocks. Started with the Model 80, didn't it? That being the case, carrying hammer down isn't as quick as cocked and locked, but every bit as safe (with regard to accidental discharges.)

BluesBear
July 31, 2006, 05:51 AM
Of all of the various 1911 pattern pistols being built today, by so many makers, only a small percentage of them have firing pin safties.

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