Woman kills neighbor’s wolves in self-defense


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Desertdog
July 24, 2006, 03:15 AM
Woman kills neighbor’s wolves in self-defense
http://www.dispatch.com/news-story.php?story=dispatch/2006/07/19/20060719-B5-01.html
Randy Ludlow
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH


As an animal lover, Kathy Bryan hated to put them down.

But when the three wolves began trying to encircle her, she felt she didn’t have a choice.

She killed two of them with shotgun blasts. A deputy sheriff later tracked down and shot the third. All had escaped from a pen at a neighbor’s house.

The unusual scene played out Sunday morning at the Bryans’ home on Rock Haven Road near Hanover in Licking County.

She went to investigate when her three dogs began baying. Bryan saw a wolf with its mouth around the neck of Roo the beagle. The wolf was tugging on Roo as if he was trying to yank him off his chain.

After grabbing a shotgun, she fired a warning shot into the air. The wolf let go of Roo, but things became more ominous when all three wolves began to circle her.

"I didn’t want to do it. I was upset," Bryan said yesterday of her decision to act in selfdefense. "A wolf is dangerous. You shouldn’t even have a wolf."

The wolves were owned by Robert Pitt, who has periodically kept exotic pets. No state permit is required to own a wolf. Pitt holds permits to keep a bobcat, coyote and raccoon, according to state records.

Pitt declined to comment yesterday. According to police reports, Pitt agreed with the need to kill his wolves.

Bryan said she has expressed concerns over the years about the dangers that could be posed by animals escaping from what she called her neighbor’s "zoo."

Roo, meanwhile, was doing fine after being treated for bites to his neck and back.


rludlow@dispatch.com

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Fleetwing1627
July 24, 2006, 03:20 AM
Righteous shooting, +3.

I have a half-Beagle, half-Sheltie wonderful mutt, and any wolf that ever touches him is DEAD.

Jim March
July 24, 2006, 04:16 AM
Absolutely a clean shoot. No question at all. Critter threatens human, critter dies.

Standing Wolf
July 24, 2006, 04:21 AM
A wolf is dangerous. You shouldn’t even have a wolf.

With certain exceptions.

Working Man
July 24, 2006, 07:22 AM
Good shoot, like any creature a wolf or wolf hybrid should be properly penned.

71Commander
July 24, 2006, 08:45 AM
We'll see how they really are at the next full moon.:evil:

Biker
July 24, 2006, 10:17 AM
Don't blame her a bit. No way ya let Lon Chaney Jr. kill Snoopy.

Biker

Malum Prohibitum
July 24, 2006, 10:38 AM
Your post made this thread worth reading! :D

MechAg94
July 24, 2006, 10:39 AM
Nice to see that the neighbor was being reasonable about it. Hopefully, he realized the potential fall-out of his animals killing his neighbor.

Deanimator
July 24, 2006, 12:24 PM
There sure have been a lot of animal attacks here in Ohio lately.

First it was bears, in the wild and otherwise, now wolves.

Sunday morning I heard some weird call coming from the Metropark.

I wish my Model 29 would hurry up and get back from S&W...

jacobtowne
July 24, 2006, 01:12 PM
According to most wildlife biologists, wolves are not dangerous, except to prey like rodents and deer. The man who operates Wolf Hollow gets into a pen with six or eight and plays with them. These are not wild, of course, but they are still gray wolves.

http://www.wolfhollowipswich.com/


JT

one-shot-one
July 24, 2006, 01:20 PM
is that these "wolves", whether wild caught or born in captivity have been acclimated to people and have no natural or learned fear of them.

dfaugh
July 24, 2006, 01:31 PM
is that these "wolves", wether wild caught or born in captivity have been aclimated to people and have no natural or learned fear of them.

Exactly, I know someone that had one, and used to inter breed them with German Shepherds. She DID NOT recommend them as pets (even the half-breeds).
There's still alot of "wild animal" there and (as IBM used to say in its manuals),

"RESULTS MAY BE UNPREDICTABLE"

shllyshny
July 24, 2006, 01:38 PM
Fired a shot in the air???? :what:

My first shot would have been center mass. :fire:

hso
July 24, 2006, 01:43 PM
I wonder if these were wolves or wolf/dog hybrids.

Vern Humphrey
July 24, 2006, 01:49 PM
According to most wildlife biologists, wolves are not dangerous, except to prey like rodents and deer.

In years gone by, those same experts would have (and did) tell us that mountain lions and black bears aren't dangerous, either. Things have changed. In fact about a week or so ago, a black bear dragged a 23-month old child out of a tent at a state park right here in Arkansas (the child was rescued with no serious injuries.)

JerryM
July 24, 2006, 09:52 PM
When there are instances of dogs which kill or maim people, and even some family pets kill or maim members of the family, to think that one can trust wolves is nonsense and very foolish.

"She done good."

Jerry

stevelyn
July 25, 2006, 12:11 AM
I have a half-beagle, half-sheltie wonderful mutt, any wolf that touches him is DEAD.

I or any other bushkin for that matter, need far less excuse than that to smoke a wolf. They're direct competitors for limited food resources up here.

Good shoot BTW under stressful circumstances. Hope she gets to keep the pelts.:D :evil:

Our motto: Eat Moose. Wear Wolf.

Steak
July 25, 2006, 06:23 AM
Many ignorant posts about wolves here. I have owned 4 wolves. All the best dogs I've had (and even at my young age, I'm up to nearly a dozen dogs, we keep many). Wolves are FAR smarter than regular dogs. If you have a wolf, a good one (and thats up to you) a stupid dog (lab, retriever, etc) will no longer suffice. They are good dogs, loyal dogs, and in fact the only canine I would trust alone with a baby (yes, sounds strange, but I know these animals). Problem with many wolves, is that people do not socialize them. They MUST be socialized, heavily. Bring them EVERYWHERE you can. They learn well, and are very loyal to their masters. If you are a wimpy dog owner, who cannot housebreak your animal, don't own a wolf. They will walk all over you. If you know how to train and deal with dogs, a wolf is far superior to any breed for a house pet, or a loyal companion (and has your pointer ever chased down the deer as well as tackling it on its own? doubt it) A good primer, learn how to break and train a working horse(which I can), and you can train a wolf.

Malamutes and huskies are also great. The only true 'dog' I could compare to a wolf or malamute in terms of intelligence is a border collie, but they can be far too hyper for most.

Don't try to diminish the nature of a wolf, just because you like to kill them (for those who hunt wolves). You are far better off killing local rott's or pitts who are far more dangerous. To kill a wolf, is just as offensive as harpooning a wild whale to me. OK for some, not cool with me.

By the way, I like to hunt, but would not kill an ape, a whale, or a wolf. They are not quite our peers, but close. shoot a turkey or a buck? right on! food!, fun! stupid animal, with tasty loins. Unless you enjoy eating dog, killing a wolf is barbaric. If you eat dog, then go ahead. Thats the food chain, correct?

In this case presented, the woman did the right thing, as she should have done with any animal, or person, if it threatened her(granted her story is true, her beagle is lunch for a bigger animal, as far as nature is concerned, not much different than a rabbit or a rat).

The wolves owner was the problem, not the animals. Let the flames begin, but I promise, I have far more experience with the animal than anyone on this board.

-Chris

Steak
July 25, 2006, 06:44 AM
Roo is a beagle, would anyone see a problem with a wolf trying to eat a possum? probably not, a beagle is about the same. It is a small, retarded, freak of nature animal, worth more in food than in life. I'd smoke a beagle way before I'd smoke a wolf. Worthless use of oxygen, that beagle.

71Commander
July 25, 2006, 07:48 AM
I feel the same way about some newbie creatures from southern California. A total waste of oxygen.:cuss:

das028
July 25, 2006, 08:06 AM
Wolves are wild animals, period! Its the same thing as having a pet tiger. Of coarse they are smarter than other dogs, thats because they a WILD animals, they have to be, there instincts are much stronger due to having to fend for themselves in the wild. On the other hand, domesticated dogs have relied on humans for survival for a long time, so they are more dependent, and therefore less street smart, if you will, then wolves.

Steak,

Thats nice a wolf is the only dog that you trust around your baby! I thinks thats the second stupidest thing I've heard on this site since joining:banghead:

Oh yeah, as for Beagles not being worthy of oxygen, you've obviously have never been rabbit hunting. And word to the wise, ignorant comments like yours are going to rub alot of people the wrong way, so prepared to get flamed.

So do us all a favor and stay in SOCO, with your wolves. You should probably stick to surf board, rather than guns, with the your attitude. So surfs up, Bra!:cuss:

shermacman
July 25, 2006, 08:27 AM
First of all, great shoot! Lady has to have some guts to respond quickly and accurately to a wolf attack.

Second,
I'd smoke a beagle way before I'd smoke a wolf.

Dude! Keep smokin' whatever yer smokin'! Don't worry about not making sense!

BIGJACK
July 25, 2006, 10:01 AM
Folks who take wild animals and domesticate them are and should be held accountable for their actions. :cuss:

Many states have "leash laws" and are liberalizing "shoot to protect" laws in recognition of these facts.:D

There has never been a meat eating animal, given the right circumstances, that would not return to their natural heritage of eating humans.:eek: Your pet Wolf or hybrid pet (Beagle) will do the same. That is why there are laws and regulations on owing such animals. And anyone who entrust an infant with any animal is a fool.:banghead: Such foolishness is dramatized in newspapers all over the world on an almost daily basis.

I do agree that Wolves are "smart" and it is obvious that they are a lot smarter than some people.:p

LAR-15
July 25, 2006, 10:40 AM
Sounds like the woman was looking for an excuse to kill her neighbor's wolves.

HarryB
July 25, 2006, 10:54 AM
Sounds like the woman was looking for an excuse to kill her neighbor's wolves.

Sounds like someone trying to stir up a crap storm over a righteous shoot.

Roadwild17
July 25, 2006, 10:57 AM
First of all, I wouldn’t trust my baby with any animal including a fish. Dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years and wolves are still wild, that’s my .02.

LAR-15
July 25, 2006, 11:15 AM
Wolves are dogs.

Where in the heck you think domesticated canines came from?

People domesticating wolves way back when.

das028
July 25, 2006, 11:24 AM
"Sounds like the woman was looking for an excuse to kill her neighbor's wolves."

I assumed you were being sarcastic, I guess not.:confused:


"Wolves are dogs."

"Where in the heck you think domesticated canines came from?"

"People domesticating wolves way back when."

Whats your point? Where are you getting at? You do understand the difference between a domesticated animal and a wild animal dont you?

Animals that are domesticated have been dependent on humans for hundreds maybe thousands of years, in which there natural insticts have become obsolete. Just becasuse you raise a wolf from a pup doesnt mean its domesticated.

Please explain your point because I am a bit confused?

eagle45
July 25, 2006, 11:27 AM
By the way, I like to hunt, but would not kill an ape, a whale, or a wolf. They are not quite our peers, but close.

Close to being your peers in SoCal maybe. :neener:

das028
July 25, 2006, 11:32 AM
"By the way, I like to hunt, but would not kill an ape, a whale, or a wolf. They are not quite our peers, but close. shoot a turkey or a buck? right on! food!, fun! stupid animal, with tasty loins. Unless you enjoy eating dog, killing a wolf is barbaric. If you eat dog, then go ahead. Thats the food chain, correct?"

Killing any animal for the sake of killing it is barbaric! But killing an animal in self defense, or defense of ones property, is justified. Dont understand how this lady acted barbaric:confused:

buzz_knox
July 25, 2006, 11:35 AM
Whats your point? Where are you getting at? You do understand the difference between a domesticated animal and a wild animal dont you?

Animals that are domesticated have been dependent on humans for hundreds maybe thousands of years, in which there natural insticts have become obsolete. Just becasuse you raise a wolf from a pup doesnt mean its domesticated.

Please explain your point because I am a bit confused?

Yes, you are. But not in the way you think. The natural instincts aren't obsolete or absent; they are, in fact, the very things used to domesticate dogs. Some of the domestication took place via selective breeding, but the majority of it occurred via the simple act of recognizing that canines are pack animals, who follow the alpha male. Humans replaced the alpha male and the dog will follow you as long as you maintain that place. A wolf raised from a pup will recongize you as the alpha, and obey. The natural instinct to hunt wolves display is no different than that of a German Shepherd or beagle given leave to hunt

Ever see dogs which are allowed to roam? They tend to gather together, play, roam around together: the same as a pack of wolves. And sometimes, if the mood strikes them, or if they are turning feral (and animals can do so even with nice loving homes to go to), they will kill.

dfaugh
July 25, 2006, 11:35 AM
Wolves are dogs.

Where in the heck you think domesticated canines came from?

People domesticating wolves way back when.

Exactly--about 15,000 years ago. So many of the natural instincts have been bred out of dogs...Or more realistically, they have been bred for certain traits (Like a beagle chasing rabbits. Most of the beagles I've known had about 3 brain cells--all dedicated to chasing rabbits). One important trait that they have been bred for is is (mostly) peaceable interaction with humans.

So, while genetically "wolf = dog" (they can interbreed), there's a HUGE difference in temperment and their reaction to stimuli, between wolves and "dogs".

I've been training and breeding GSDs for Shutzhund Sport for years, worked with many breeds, and trainers from all over the US and the world. I KNOW what a dogs is gonna behave like, and these are "tough" dogs, that need serious training. However, no matter the amount of training, I wouldn't have a wolf, or a wolf cross, as they WILL revert to their natural instincts under the right circumstances.

Deanimator
July 25, 2006, 11:43 AM
Wolves are dogs.
Sharks are fish. So are guppies.

What's your point?

You might want to watch "Grizzly Man" the next time it's on. He couldn't tell the difference between domestic and wild animals either...

mrmeval
July 25, 2006, 11:45 AM
Wolves respond poorly to anyone who has not been accepted as 'pack'. Some dogs display this trait but it's the firmly fixed nature of wolves.

I can only see keeping wolves if it's to rehabilitate them for release back into a wild setting or if there is some reason they cannot be released into the wild.

das028
July 25, 2006, 11:50 AM
Buzz I see your point, but I dont think you understood my post. Of coarse all animals have natural instincts, but they are not that of a wild animal. Maybe I should'nt of used the word obsolete.

See dfaughs post, thats kinda the point I was trying to get accross.

LAR-15
July 25, 2006, 11:50 AM
Animals that are domesticated have been dependent on humans for hundreds maybe thousands of years, in which there natural insticts have become obsolete.


That is totally not true!

Ever seen a feral horse? dog? cat? goat? burro?

Been to the Outer Banks of North Carolina and see the feral ponies there?

Ever seen a bull tear up a entire pasture with it's horns in aggressive rage?

Every animal still has it's wild instincts down deep and that includes dogs.

das028
July 25, 2006, 12:03 PM
"Every animal still has it's wild instincts down deep and that includes dogs."

You missed my point, and maybe i should'nt of used the word obsolete.

Again, read dfaugh's post. He couldnt of said it any better.

LAR-15
July 25, 2006, 12:32 PM
You cannot totally pacify a dog or breed it's 'meaness' out if it.

You can't.

das028
July 25, 2006, 01:10 PM
"You cannot totally pacify a dog or breed it's 'meaness' out if it.

You can't."


Again, whats your point? How is this relevant? Are you saying a wolf has the same instincts, as a (insert breed of dometicated dog here)?

LAR-15
July 25, 2006, 01:50 PM
Yes and vice versa.

A dog no matter what is still a wild animal.

das028
July 25, 2006, 01:54 PM
"Yes and vice versa"

:banghead:

Steak
July 25, 2006, 02:01 PM
edit: impersonator post

LAR-15
July 25, 2006, 02:03 PM
A lot of posters in this thread prolly opposed the release of wolves to Yellowstone because they thought they would eat their children.

das028
July 25, 2006, 02:07 PM
"A lot of posters in this thread prolly opposed the release of wolves to Yellowstone because they thought they would eat their children"


Not at all buddy, thats were they belong! I'm opposed to having wolves in your backyard.;)

buzz_knox
July 25, 2006, 02:09 PM
Not at all buddy, thats were they belong! I'm opposed to having wolves in your backyard.

Of course. That's where the coyotes live.

das028
July 25, 2006, 02:10 PM
He Steaks GF,

I suggest you read the article!


"The wolf was tugging on Roo as if he was trying to yank him off his chain."


The key words are "yank him off his chain"

LAR-15
July 25, 2006, 02:11 PM
Buzz,

LMAO


Das,

I gotcha. It's just that there are a lot of stereotypes about wolves.

birddog
July 25, 2006, 02:11 PM
This was an interesting thread, until the trolls got thrown to the narrow minded wolves.

;)

SteveS
July 25, 2006, 02:24 PM
Sounds like the woman was looking for an excuse to kill her neighbor's wolves.


Unless you have some additional information on this incident, this is a riduculous statement. I guess she could have placed her beagle out there as bait and lured her neighbors wolves onto her property.

Any animal that comes onto my property and poses a threat to me, my family, or my dog, will not receive a friendly reception. I have no problem with people keeping wolves, but they better keep them out of my yard.

Kentak
July 25, 2006, 03:32 PM
Domestic or wild, it doesn't matter. If an animal is threatening you and yours, you have a right to take reasonable measures to defend yourself. That doesn't mean you should whip out the magnum and drill little Muffy if a kick will dissuade the little ankle biter, but in the situation described, lethal force seems appropriate.

K

wolf
July 25, 2006, 04:06 PM
for me..seeing a wolf in the wild..if far less threatening than seeing an unleashed pit bull on a city street..

as for keeping a wolf as a pet...right...keep it next to the well trained tigers..

venice beach on weekends some folks have their snakes wrapped around them and have even seen some fool with a falcon on his shoulder...why not a tiger on a leash..

wolf

das028
July 25, 2006, 04:20 PM
"for me..seeing a wolf in the wild..if far less threatening than seeing an unleashed pit bull on a city street.."

How about seeing one in your neighborhood, with your beagle in its mouth?


"why not a tiger on a leash.."

Because most people have common sense!;)

gunsmith
July 25, 2006, 04:44 PM
Who kept a wolf in New York city, He would walk his wolf at
0300 and would walk from his loft in the village to Central Park and back.

(@ least 5 miles)...I asked him why would he walk thru the park
(a dangerous thing to do at night) he laughed and said
"people have tried, but I do have a wolf"

btw the wolf was huge, it looked like seven ft long and was never on a leash.:cool:

I was told by someone else who had a wolf that they are fine pets , but that you really have to understand wolf (pack) psychology

Working Man
July 25, 2006, 04:53 PM
No matter how you see the whole wolf/wolf-hybrid as a pet thing it still
was a good shoot.

Now I have had a good amount of experience with captive wolves as well
as hybrids and even a little bit with wild wolves. If some one has a pure
breed wolf as a pet that is from a line of several generations born in captivity
or even a hybrid, dominance must be established at the beginning. They also
must be treated as any large dog that even in play they can injure a small
child.

Captive pure breed wolves are considered different than wolf-hybrids for a
good reason. They still have a great deal of wild in them. Even hybrids can
be a bit scary at times but no more so than any large "dog" (and they are
considered dogs) not well trained. I have not had a negative experience
with either though.

Either way still a good shoot.

BIGJACK
July 25, 2006, 05:23 PM
A lot of posters in this thread prolly opposed the release of wolves to Yellowstone because they thought they would eat their children._

most of the folks who opposed the restocking of wolves in Yellowston were opposed because they thought that they would not stay in Yellowstone and by george they were right. Now they have set up house keeping for hundreds of miles from the park and are killing deer, elk, moose, buffalo, bear and even their cousin the cayotes.

Steak
July 26, 2006, 04:52 AM
Well, I definitely got some flames shot my way. One thing that cracked me up a little bit, was people trying to make me feel bad or embarrassed about living in S Cali. Sorry, I quite happy to live a literal stone's throw from the pacific. The landscape is beautiful, the weather is beautiful, and the women are even more beautiful than both put together. Our gun laws suck, but I do vote religiously, and try to change that. At the same time, I know plenty of gun fans (even nuts) around here.

Besides that, I think I was clear, and my comments were misconstrued. I think this woman did the right thing, by shooting these wolves, if they threatened her. My girlfriends brother in law has had a problem with a pack of dogs in his neighborhood (domesticated house-dogs that pack up and get vicious? no way!). I told him he should arm himself. Any animal that attacks a human being, should be taken out, or taken care of. It's the later posts, acting as if wolves were vicious animals just waiting to kill people. All of you have read plenty of propaganda about guns, and how dangerous they are. You know better, so why the double standard when it is something you know nothing about? You fear an animal you have no experience with. I have a lot of experience with them. Don't believe the sensational crap!

All dogs can be wild. All wolves can be wild. If they are domestic, and heavily socialized, they are safe (most of the time, depends on the dog). Thing about wolves is, they are confident animals, and guess what? family oriented. Dogs like pitts and rotts are very skiddish, and therefore often bite out of fear. Wolves are not fearful around their 'pack' (me and my family). They don't do tricks, and they like to sleep outside, but are the tamest dogs I have ever met. One of my wolves, I used to do taming trick. I held a piece of steak in my fingers, let her put my hand in her mouth, and made her stay still till I said ok. She would then use her tongue to dislodge the raw meat. Yes, some people would cringe a bit (this was a big dog, with really big teeth) bit she never so much as knicked me. Wolves only hunt with their teeth, they fight with their paws, which no other dogs but hybrids do. When other dogs have come after my wolves, my girls would bat them down with their paws, every time others lunged, and then pinned them. They were very effective. My wolves only bit 2 things, rodents and chickens, but they ate them afterwards, and I cannot well blame them for eating a chicken while grilling up some hot wings!


Really, wolves are similar to dogs, if anything they are safer. They keep their cool, where as many freak out if things are out of the ordinary.

Yes, I was offended about people who have never lived with a wolf, start preaching about how wolves are.
Even in the wild, there has NEVER been a proven wolf attack in North America. EVER! hell even deer attack people every so often. I've even had geese attack me at the local park!There was one case in canada a few months ago. I talked to many people in the area. They did not believe wolves were responsible, they blamed packs of wild dogs (from surrounding communities) that had threatened many people in the area for a long time. There was one article that said it might have been wolves, that was it. A few others said it was a bear. Nobody knows.

I have loved every dog I have owned, dearly, but the wolves were the magic animals. They had a spirit like no dog ever could.
One other great plus, wolves don't bark, only kind of grumble or howl. No complaints from the neighbors! They are a true FAMILY member. Labs and such are nice, always happy to see you, and always at your feet, they are a fun. Working dogs, great help, and also great companions, but a wolf, is a family member in a larger way. I'm probably also a bit biased right now, since I just recently put down the best dog I ever had, who was a beautiful female grey wolf named Denali. I miss her, and have never met a dog like her, and I've had a lot of them.

gunsmith
July 26, 2006, 07:12 AM
What a beautiful dog, a very caring intelligent face.
I can understand how you feel, I had a rottie/lab mix growing up and he was a big lug who never understood why everyone was so afraid of him (I lived in a bad NY hood so I was glad they were)

I am not aginst wild wolves at all or even pet ones, a friend of a friend has 7
on his 60 acre ranch...What irks me is they tell me I can not carry in Yellowstone but grizz and wolf can keep their teeth and claws.

I think ranchers are concerned with livestock, understandable...no livestock seems to wander onto my friends friends ranch:evil:

I am not much of a hunter myself, being a new yorker never really afforded me much opportunity, I had a license though!

When I get around to learning how to hunt I probably wouldn't hunt wolf, maybe a mountain lion though...

BIGJACK
July 26, 2006, 09:04 AM
I have had dogs all of my life as has most southerners. They are a part of our culture. My favorites have always been large dogs and in particular Catahoula Curs. THey, primarily originated in South Louisiana and, I am told, is a cross between something that the French had and local Indian guard dogs, The bread is one of the most recent recognized by the AKC. :barf:

The main difference between most folks who have owned dogs all of their lives and those who only made their acquantance later in life is that we recognize that they are animals and can in the blink of an eye revert to their natural ways. :mad:

A dog, any dog, under the right circumstances will bite and even though one might attempt to get out of the way it is resonable to accept ones right to use deadly force if he truly fears for his own safety. :cuss:
The lady did the right thing.:D

ApexinM3
July 26, 2006, 10:57 AM
Word to the wise: watch the flaming, it may cost someone their membership. Opinions are one thing, firing insults is entirely another.

To each their own, as far as pets go, so long as they are controlled. Dogs, wolves, bears, pidgeons, whatever-if not properly controlled could potentially become a liability. They are animals, and function on instinct as well as smarts. So any animal could be dangerous, if the conditions are right.

Personally, given the same circumstances, I'd have shot, too, regardless of whatever animals they were. Can't fault the woman for her actions-she sees her dog has become a meal for wolves, she fires warning shot to scare away said animals & in they turn to her instead? Sorry, I don't see a problem here. Good reaction.

Suiting up in Nomex, just in case...

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