[Blain]

I just read something very interesting in the LA Times. After reading it , I hope all of you get up off your buts, look towards Washington, and wave goodbye to your freedoms.

Los Angeles Times
May 2, 2003

COMMENTARY
Feeling the Boot Heel of the Patriot Act

By Jason Halperin
Several weeks ago, my roommate Asher and I went to an Indian restaurant just off Times Square in the heart of midtown Manhattan. We helped ourselves to the buffet and sat down to begin eating.

Suddenly there was a terrible commotion and five police officers in bulletproof vests stormed down the stairs. They had their guns drawn and were pointing them indiscriminately at the restaurant staff and at us.

"Go to the back of the restaurant," they yelled. I hesitated, lost in my own panic. "Did you not hear me? Go to the back and sit down," they demanded. I complied and looked around at the other patrons. There were eight men including the waiter, all of South Asian descent and ranging from late teens to senior citizen. One of the officers pointed his gun in the waiter's face and shouted: "Is there anyone else in the restaurant?" The waiter, terrified, gestured to the kitchen.

The police placed their fingers on the triggers of their guns and kicked open the kitchen doors. Shouts emanated from the kitchen and a few seconds later five Latino men crawled out on their hands and knees, guns pointed at them.

After patting us all down, the five officers seated us at two tables. As they continued to kick open doors to closets and restrooms with their fingers glued to their triggers, officials in business suits emerged from the stairwell. Two walked over to our table and identified themselves as agents of the Immigration and Naturalization Service and the Homeland Security Department.

Having some limited knowledge of the rights afforded to U.S. citizens, I asked why we were being held. The INS agent said we would be released once they confirmed that there were no outstanding warrants against us and our immigration status was OK.

In pre-9/11 America, the legality of this would have been questionable. After all, the 4th Amendment states: "The right of the people to be secure against unreasonable searches and seizures. "

"You have no right to hold us," said Asher. But they explained that they did: This was a homeland security investigation under the authority of the Patriot Act.

The Patriot Act was passed into law on Oct. 26, 2001, in order to facilitate the post-9/11 crackdown on terrorism. Among the unprecedented rights it grants to the federal government are the right to wiretap or detain without a warrant. As I quickly discovered, the right to an attorney has been fudged as well. When I asked to speak to a lawyer, the INS official told me I did have the right to a lawyer but I would have to be taken to the station for security clearance before being granted one. When I asked how long that would take, he replied with a coy smile: "Maybe a day, maybe a week, maybe a month."

We insisted that we had every right to leave and were going to do so. One of the police officers, with his hand on his gun, taunted: "Go ahead and leave, just go ahead." We remained seated.

Our IDs were taken. I was questioned why my license was from out of state and asked whether I had "something to hide." The police continued to hassle the kitchen workers, demanding licenses and dates of birth. One of the kitchen workers was shaking and kept providing the day's date — March 20, 2003 — over and over.

As I continued to press for legal counsel, a female officer put her finger in my face. "We are at war, we are at war and this is for your safety," she exclaimed. As she walked away from the table, she continued to repeat it to herself. "We are at war, we are at war; how can they not understand this?"

I most certainly understand that we are at war, and that we need some measure of security in times like these. But I also understand that the freedoms in the Constitution were meant specifically for times like these.

After an hour and a half, the INS agent returned our licenses. An officer escorted us out. Before we left, the INS agent apologized.

Among the customers, there were four taxi drivers, two students, one newspaper salesman. Several said they were U.S. citizens. I doubt they received apologies. Nor have the hundreds of immigrants being held without charge. Apparently, this type of treatment is acceptable.

Three days after the incident, I phoned the restaurant. The owner was nervous, embarrassed and did not want to talk about it. But I managed to ascertain that the whole thing had been one giant mistake.

A mistake. Loaded guns pointed in faces, people made to crawl, police officers kicking in doors, taunting, keeping their fingers on the trigger even after the situation was under control. A mistake.

And, according to the ACLU, a perfectly legal one, thanks to the Patriot Act.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Halperin lives in New York City.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-halperin2may02.story

[Chris Rhines]

"We are at war, we are at war and this is for your safety," she exclaimed. As she walked away from the table, she continued to repeat it to herself. "We are at war, we are at war; how can they not understand this?" I feel safer already.

- Chris

[Sir Galahad]

Moral of the story: Next time you're in the mood for a different food, go out for Greek.:neener:

[Sodbuster]

Democrat,
Republican,
Beggarman, Thief.

Another moral.

[pax]

I almost wish Gore were in office.

Then at least the folks on the right side of the aisle would be fighting against this despicable, goose-stepping dreck -- instead of cheering it on.

pax

The American people must be willing to give up a degree of personal privacy in exchange for safety and security. -- Louis Freeh

[CZ-75]

I almost wish Gore were in office.

Hillary will push to enact Patriot 3 when she's in office. The common name for this will be The Enabling Act for the Defense and Preservation of the Reich.

[Sir Galahad]

Except if Gore was in office, you wouldn't have any guns left to fight with and vocal fighting would do as good as complaints lodged after Waco. A resounding "huh?" from Congress. We'd also be too busy unbolting the quivers from our compound bows because those would be deemed to be "assault bows" because Rambo had one.

"You can only have two assault features on your bows. You cannot have them all: bow quiver, sights, mechanical release (or bow set up for mechanical release), camoflage pattern on bow, and string silencers." String silencers! Hey! That's an ILEGAL suppressed weapon! Quick! Call BATF! And those mechanical broadheads! Those could shoot down an airliner! :rolleyes: We need to close down the "bow and arrow loophole"!

[pax]

Yeah, they'd be pushing. But the Repubs would be pushing back.

As it is, ain't no one standing up for freedom.

My Republican friends are all too busy waving the flag and prating on about Homeland Security to worry about what is happening here. The Democrats, of course, are simply pleased by the expansion of government power & authority, even though it is happening under a Republican administration.

At least when the Dems are in power, the Repubs fight against the expected federal power grabs.

pax

[Blain]

Hillary will push to enact Patriot 3 when she's in office. The common name for this will be The Enabling Act for the Defense and Preservation of the Reich


ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!

[USGuns]

The LA Times is notoriously left-wing and will do anything to make the current administration look bad.

[Ian]

Uh huh. And are the airports just politics too? I've been through that firsthand.

After several savage beatings, the Constitution went into a coma in 1937. It's looking even worse now, and I'm afraid that the next couple years will kill it completely. *waves liberties goodbye*

Fortunately, freedom lies individually in individuals. No matter how much they restrict actions, the FedGov has no power to actually destroy freedom; they can only make it harder to exercise. Those who are motivated enough can always find a way through their rules and edicts and barricades.

[Justin]

The LA Times is notoriously left-wing and will do anything to make the current administration look bad. Just keep telling yourself that. Maybe then you'll be able to convince yourself that it was all made up.

:barf:

[dustind]

Damn, that has got to be the last straw, how can Americans let the goverment get away with that.:fire:

[LawDog]

I can't help but notice, as I read this little tid-bit, that it is an Op-Ed (Opinion-Editorial) article, and thus immune from the admittedly crumbling journalistic rules concerning factuality.

I also notice that it is written about an incident that allegedly happened in Newt Yack City, by a writer who lives in Newt Yack City, but it is printed in a Los Angeles paper.

Can anyone direct me to a article about this incident that isn't on the Op-Ed pages?

Failing that, can anyone direct me to a print of this article that appeared in a paper near the scene of the outrage?

LawDog

[TarpleyG]

Everyone is always complaining here about illegal aliens and here we have a story about an attempt to find a few of them and get rid of them.
"The right of the people to be secure against unreasonable searches and seizures. " ...
...applies to US CITIZENS, not those that are not supposed to be here. Unfortunately, there are sometimes folks that are inconvenienced during the process.

Now, if this story is indeed true, it is appaling. Maybe they guvment needs to fall somewhere in the middle for these types of things. I don't know what the answers are. Maybe we need another revolution.

GT

[spartacus2002]

submachine guns and "Your paperz, pliz" are not what we expect from our humble public servants...

[Russ]

This story sounds like a big fat load of BS to me. If this really happened, it would have made the news somewhere not in "somthing that happened several weeks ago" by a reporter from Pravda West.

[rock jock]

MY BS meter is pegged to the wall on this one. Its amazing what some people will believe (or want to believe).

[Tamara]

Moral of the story: Next time you're in the mood for a different food, go out for Greek. :neener:

[Hollywood Deutsch Accent] "Ja, you shouldn't have been in a Juden restaurant in ze first place." [/Hollywood Deutsch Accent]

:confused:

Lord, my enemies I can handle, but please spare me from my allies. :uhoh:

[spartacus2002]

which is scarier? That the story might be true? Or that people are so affraid of the fed.popo that they would believe it?

[buzz_knox]

I've got to call bull too, unless someone can provide somewhere of corroborating evidence as well as some indication what was the precipitating event behind the assault. Or, are we to suppose that there are currently random assaults and searches of restaurants going on in one of the most populated (and liberal) areas of the country, yet are not making the news?

[Tamara]

I've seen my share of pre-P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act INS raids, and the main difference seems to be that the guys I saw had plenty of SIGs and shotguns but were short on MP5's.

That anybody who saw the tender way the INS lad with the buzzgun handled young master Elian finds this tale unbelievable is... well... unbelievable. :uhoh:

[buzz_knox]

I don't think it's valid to use the Elian situation here as there was a clear precipitating event. Granted, it was completely bogus and crap filled, but there was an existing situation. Further, the existence of pre-Patriot Act raids does not prove the point asserted here, as there were many raids for illegal immigrants which were legal under the 4th Amendment.

In this editorial (not a true news article), we are presented with what appears to be an out of the blue assault with weapons drawn, yet absolutely no indication of what supposedly gave rise to it. We are led to believe that the way INS works now is to kick in the doors whereever foreign nationals and/or immigrants might be, and they'll be held until their identities can be confirmed to the satisfaction of some unnamed gov't entity. I can't help but feel that such a scenario would be widely documented if it occured in Manhatten. Is it happening with people suspected of terrorist ties? Yes, unfortunately. But is it happening anywhere and everywhere. as implied by the editorial? I'm not so sure of that.

[Tamara]

We are led to believe that the way INS works now is to kick in the doors whereever foreign nationals and/or immigrants might be, and they'll be held until their identities can be confirmed to the satisfaction of some unnamed gov't entity.

I have seen this happen as far back as the late-'80s/early-'90s in businesses and apartment complexes suspected to be hives of illegal alien activity. When INS comes screeching into a parking lot with a couple of prisoner-transport Bluebirds and a passel of armed agents, it ain't a fun place to be...

I've had to present my state-ID to armed federales.

You've met me face-to-face; I know I look like a Mexican illegal ( :rolleyes: ), but please...

[Justin]

For all of you saying that this is BS, put your money where your mouth is. Do some research and see if you can contact the restaurant or other people who were there to see if you can get a corroborating story.

If it is indeed completely made up, then I would suspect that Jason Halperin would meet much the same fate as Stephen Glass.

[buzz_knox]

For all of you saying that this is BS, put your money where your mouth is. Do some research and see if you can contact the restaurant or other people who were there to see if you can get a corroborating story

Sorry, but it's not my job to prove it didn't happen. In fact, if it didn't happen, then it would probably be impossible to establish that to your satisfaction, no? The burden of proof lies with those advancing the story, not me.

As for Tamara's story, I defer to your superior experience in the matter. Consider me fortunate or unfortunate, but I've never been in an area where such raids took place. I'll admit that may jade my interpretation of things.

[LawDog]

It's a well-known axiom that it's impossible to prove a negative.

In other words, there is no way to conclusivley prove that this event did not occur.

For all of you saying that this is BS, put your money where your mouth is. Do some research and see if you can contact the restaurant or other people who were there to see if you can get a corroborating story

The burden of proof does not lay with me. The central tenet of this debate is not mine, therefore it is not my task to provide the evidence to support my opponents position.

It is poor debating skills to expect those you are debating to provide the proof that your view is correct. Not to mention discourteous and a wee bit lazy.

When INS comes screeching into a parking lot with a couple of prisoner-transport Bluebirds and a passel of armed agents, it ain't a fun place to be...

Now, I'll admit, here in Texas we might not get as much INS activity as more illegally-endowed states out east-ish, but I've been around when la migra hit a place or two and I've yet to see a door kicked in, un-justified gun-pointing or even a whole bunch of screaming.

Maybe our INS agents are more laid back.

LawDog

[Wildalaska]

I call BS on this one..

WildskepticalAlaska

[Waitone]

Lawdog said it before me.

Too much windage on the story.
--LA Time carries a grudge against Bush
--Article was an op-ed, not a report
--Far too much imflamatory language used to convey facts.
--I've never heard from any other source about the incident.

The article just smells funny to me.

[buzz_knox]

Actually, this isn't even an LA Times story. It's www.alternet.com, which is the only source for the commentary that I've been able to find.

[ahenry]

I can’t really say whether this happened or not. I can say that it is full of embellishment and hype and a request for money (http://www.masnet.org/newsviews/2003-05/01/AOI1.htm), which calls the whole incident into question, at least in my mind.

Tamara,
I have seen this happen as far back as the late-'80s/early-'90s in businesses and apartment complexes suspected to be hives of illegal alien activity. When INS comes screeching into a parking lot with a couple of prisoner-transport Bluebirds and a passel of armed agents, it ain't a fun place to be... If you don’t mind my asking, whereabouts did you see these things happen, and what actually transpired?

[Tamara]

If you don’t mind my asking, whereabouts did you see these things happen, and what actually transpired?

Why, certainly. Thank you for asking. :)

'Twas in the fair city of Atlanta, in the Summer of 1988 at the apartment complex on Roswell Road at the exit from I-285 (Last I checked, it was called "Governor's Walk", I believe. At the time it had the more mellifluous name of "Windemere"). The apartment complex at the time had a 25%-33% vacancy rate which the new management company was attempting to increase (prior to remodeling the property and attempting to move it upscale from the rather, er, vibrant urban atmosphere it currently had), and a few calls to the friendly INS were part of the recipe to do that.

I was, at the time, employed by the friendly neighborhood Stop-N-Rob across the street, and one of my clerks, a young lad name of "Frank", lived in scenic Windemere across the street. I accompanied he and his girlfriend to their domicile after work for a tasty beer, when the aforementioned passle of INS showed up in the parking lot of the building. We were invited to remain on the steps of the building by an armed agent and requested to show our ID's, as they were looking for illegal aliens. Meanwhile, armed agents went rushing through the building . I didn't get to see any door-kicking, granted, but everybody in the parking lot was detained as they made their rounds (save the couple who actually were, you know, illegals, and were carted off....)

Smaller scale versions of this with greater or lesser amounts of yelling and/or gun waving occured at one restaurant I was just finished dining at in Forsyth County, and one trailer park in (Forsyth? Hall?) County (anyhow, out Gainesville way). In neither of those instances was I asked to show ID, being not directly involved, but rather an outside spectator for a nonetheless exciting show. It was just like Cops!, I tell you... :uhoh:

[buzz_knox]

So in the first instance, there were calls placed to INS of illegal immigrants, correct? In the others, you did not state the existence or absence of information concerning illegals and at no time did you reference whether or not you saw a warrant (in fact, as you were not the owner, you would never have seen it). So, the legal basis for these raids remains in question. I don't see how these serve as proof of INS' style or method of operation so as to lend support to this otherwise unsubstantiated claim at hand.

[ahenry]

I are just a poor dumb Aggie from Texas so you’re gonna have to spell it out a little better for me. In these instances, what exactly transpired that was so awful? Was it that INS agents were unprofessional (JBT-like) or that they were there at all? If it is the former, please tell us more as that certainly hasn’t come across in this last post. If it is the latter then I am sorry you had to be an unwilling participant, but it appears from your story that they were there at the invitation and request of the property owners so I’m not really understanding the terrible usurpation of power here. After all, you were saying that you had seen examples that show that, “the way INS works now is to kick in the doors whereever foreign nationals and/or immigrants might be, and they'll be held until their identities can be confirmed to the satisfaction of some unnamed gov't entity.” I don’t see any evidence of that but that might just be because you didn’t spell it out for me with simple words. It appears to me that what transpired with you is not much different than what transpires when one calls the police for say a domestic disturbance or something, albeit on a larger scale due to the larger number of participants. No?


BTW, just so you know, you would probably be floored if you actually knew how many non-Mexican illegals are captured at the border and/or apprehended within CONUS. Looks don’t necessarily tell somebody squat about ones legal status.

[ninenot]

FWIW, Jim Sensenbrenner (my Congressman and a true-blue conservative) has written a LONG letter to Ashcroft requesting a bunch of information on Justice's implementation of PatAct. Sensen's not at ALL happy with the Act. More can be obtained from Cato (?) which wrote a longish treatise demonstrating that PatAct is very suspect in a number of areas.

Ashcroft I trust. But when HRC becomes Pres. #44, do we want HER defining the term "terrorist?"