[SilverState]

Please name the unit and post some pics (if possible) of the unit members with the railed weapons.

[Double Naught Spy]

Do a google images search. Access Google. Click the images option. Now search using key words like SWAT, pistol light, etc. Google will then search for images on the internet thay are keyed with those words.

[armoredman]

Anyone with 3rd Gen G-rocks....

[SilverState]

I did some Yahoo searches and found a little, but not that much. That is why I started the thread.

Some guy was telling me how tac lights are problematic and not beneficial. I wanted to be able to give him some specific examples on units/agencies that disagree with his assertion.

[MTMilitiaman]

The SOCOM project won by the HK Mk 23 Mod 0 required the capability to mount a combination weapon light/laser system.

When MEU(SOC) began replacing their older 1911s with newer ones, they specifically requested light rails.

I believe FBI HRT did the same with their Springer 1911s.

As stated, anyone with a Gen III Glock has a light rail, regardless of whether they choose to use it. There are a lot of police orgs out there using Glocks.

I have an issue of Guns and Ammo Combat Tactics, 2004 Vol 1 No 2 that is dedicated completely to Surefire Weapon Lights. It has lots of pics of weapon lights being employed by US soldiers and special forces in Iraq and LAPD.

Basically, there is probably little you can say or do to convince your friend. Most of them have their minds made up about this sort of thing. I think many of them just don't understand that we aren't talking about some $11 Mini Maglite here. These weapon lights from Surefire and Insight are bright enough to make you see spots in a well lit room. Getting hit in the face with 100+ lumens of light while your eyes are adjusted to the dark would be truely dehibilitating. Anyone who thinks they're just going to shoot at the light, hasn't experienced it. The first and only things you're going to do is close your eyes and look away, and/or throw a hand up to interupt the beam. And this is a reflex action, so you have no control over it. By the time you even realize what is happening, the guy on the other end of the light has already identified you and has a round in the air. There is of course tactics to go with the equipment, but when properly employed, well, there is a reason just about anyone who is anyone in the world of CQB and house clearing tactics has a weapon light, and it isn't because they like to get shot at. But good luck convincing your friend.

[SilverState]

You can lead a horse to water...

[Double Naught Spy]

Anyone who thinks they're just going to shoot at the light, hasn't experienced it.

This is the specific method used by the "suspects" to defeat police officers in sims training who are learning search techniques in Thunder Ranch's Terminator, which is a shoot house. One on one, the suspects often win. Two or more officers on one suspect and usually at least one officer loses. This was per Clint Smith when teaching low light techiques at TR's HIT in Texas.

The technique is simple. In a darkened builiding, the suspect waits. He has insight into when the officers will be arriving to his area of the structure because their flashlights will let him know. The brighter the lights, the closer they are to his location. The suspect then sets up and waits, then ambushes.

Weapon lights have their places and SWAT and other sorts of tactical units do use them. The difference there is that they are usually working as teams. Most non-LEO, non-military folks will be working as individuals.

As teams who are clearing structures, each member has a zone to cover and in low light, that is a zone covered with their own light. They use weapon lights because they have to use them given they can't count on sufficient light being present inside the structure, lights inside to work, or to know where light switches were if the lights did work. So they bring their own light and the most efficient wayto bring their own light is mounted on a gun.

Also, they go in with full body armor, helmets, etc.

In other words, the circumstances in which weapon lights are used by SWAT units are going to be considerably different than when used by a singular non-leo, non-military individual.

I have an issue of Guns and Ammo Combat Tactics, 2004 Vol 1 No 2 that is dedicated completely to Surefire Weapon Lights. It has lots of pics of weapon lights being employed by US soldiers and special forces in Iraq and LAPD.

I have the same issue. Isn't it amazing how a company like Surefire can pay for all of that advertising! No wonder their lights cost so much.

[Technosavant]

I did some Yahoo searches and found a little, but not that much.

That's because Yahoo isn't that good. If you want searches done reasonably well, try www.google.com.

There's a number of results, but sifting through them might take some time.

[MTMilitiaman]

Double Naught--you're correct--the circumstances are different. I will probably be an individual, but I am also the one lying in ambush on familiar turf with the element of surprise...

[SilverState]

I thought the same thing. This is my house we are talking about.

[foob]

This is the specific method used by the "suspects" to defeat police officers in sims training

There's a big difference between a run-of-the-mill criminal and a LEO/military trainer who gets to plan in advance what he's going to do in training when someone points a firearm/light at him... :banghead:

The technique is simple. In a darkened builiding, the suspect waits. He has insight into when the officers will be arriving to his area of the structure because their flashlights will let him know. The brighter the lights, the closer they are to his location. The suspect then sets up and waits, then ambushes.

So in a darkened building, you want the officers to not use flashlights? What's the alternative? Night vision goggles? IR goggles?

Tac lights are just lights on guns, if there's a need for a flashlight, then use it.

[MTMilitiaman]

Additionally, some people may have the benefit of feeling like they can shoot at anyone or anything in their house that isn't them, but I am not one of them.

There has only been a single time I've ever pointed a gun at someone. It was about 3 in the morning and I was awakened by whispering at the window above the head of my bed. Being drowsy, I couldn't make out the voices or what they were saying. And when the window started sliding open, I reacted by simply grabbing my bro's Springer 1911 (this was pre-Glock for me), clicking the safety off, and pointing it up towards the window. My first instinct when the head peeked through the curtin was to put a 230 gr Gold Dot in the middle of it. Instead I hesitated--a move that could have cost me my life, but instead saved the life of my brother. He had come home piss drunk from his senior prom, and finding himself locked out of the house, him and his friend had decided to crawl through the window. Even enebreated, he took one look at that .45 caliber barrel and said "Jesus Rob." And from that moment on I knew more than ever that some people may have the luxery of shooting at sounds and shadows, but for as long as my brother is the care-free, laid back, rumbunxious, fun-loving person that I hope he is always is, I do not. I can never be sure if the crashing of the lamp tipping over in the living room is someone with malacious intent, or my brother trying to find the couch. So if someone can propose a better way to identify something in the dark than a flashlight, I am all ears.

In a worst case scenerio, I'd rather the bad guy was shooting at me with limited use of his eyes. Few methods of identifying someone before you open fire will allow you to keep your position a secret. A designated weapon light gives me the ability to temporarily blind an assailant while identifying them.

[Busta Prima]

Like most things, the lights are going to have their ups and downs.

Ups:

Two hands on the gun and for me that makes it the winner. I can't shoot 1/4 as well using 1/2 the hands.

Muzzle pointed where light pointed.

Those lights are so powerful (the xenon ones, especially) that the light itself is a blinding weapon!



Downs

Well, muzzle pointed where light is pointed . . . a bad thing when your light shines on the good guy . . . or the little kid . . or the pet . . . etc.

When I received police training, I was told to hold my light far away from my body because I was giving myself away. A perp will shoot at the light and probably miss with that technique. With the light on the gun, you're giving away center of mass to the target.

Holstering

Concealment

- - - - - - - -

I can't help with your original question except to say that I've yet to see a regular patrol officer with one . . . it's more of a tactical thing . . . Swat, military and home defense seem the best applications to me. It's going to pretty much be a requirement on any future pistol purchase!! I'm even thinking of unloading my older Glocks in favor of the new generation 3's.

:)