14 year old against gun control


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winstonsmith
May 5, 2003, 05:59 PM
I am 14 years old. I live in San Francisco, California. In this liberal town, I found myself growing more and more right-wing, as it were. That basically means that I beleive in America and would die to keep her free. Now, you may say, "Doesn't everyone?" Not in San Francisco.
The strange thing about San Francisco, is that if your different ethnographically it doesn't matter, nobody cares.... Yet if you differ in political opinion you are labeled a moron at best, a racist homophobe at worst.
I am neither. I am Russian-Jewish, and I can feel the echoes of racism at its most extreme. So I have come to the conclusion that if all else fails, the only way to defend your rights is with violence.
The trouble is that my parents, unfortunately don't share my opinion. At 14 years old, I have never seen a gun unholstered except in pictures. I know a lot about them, but its all numbers, such as 30 rds of 5.56mm ammo in an STANAG M16 mag, or that .50 cal converts into 12.7mm
My question for you is simple: How do I get started? I have a beautiful future planned with many differing types of guns (legal and not so much) But how do I get started?

-Jack

PS: I'm not as pompous as my writing makes me out to be.

If you enjoyed reading about "14 year old against gun control" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
WonderNine
May 5, 2003, 06:04 PM
I beleive in America and would die to keep her free.

That does not make you "right wing".

Welcome to THR! :)

winstonsmith
May 5, 2003, 06:07 PM
Thanks wondernine! It's nice to be here.

Thats not exactly waht I meant, but that was an email that I sent to Mr. Volk I cut it up a little to post, so youll have to forgive it if it sounds a little weird.

-Jack

PATH
May 5, 2003, 06:10 PM
Young man, violence is the last resort not he first. It is a fine thing to be interested in firearms but I can assure you that violence should be the last thing on your mind. It is obvious that you have a fine intellect and that should be your first defense.

You can read about firearms, look at pictures, and come to this site to learn about firearms. Your parents wishes concerning firearms should obeyed and respected until such time as you are legally able to make your own decisions.

Always obey the law when it comes to firearms. You will find that at this site we take firearms and firearms safety very seriously.

You will find that there are many ignorant people in the world. Do not become one by using violence to solve your problems. Defending ones life is different than confronting those who hate us.

I believe you will make wise choices!

El Tejon
May 5, 2003, 06:12 PM
Talk to your parents. Do they have Boy Scouts, 4-H or FFA out there? Maybe not allowed there?

If nothing else, read everything you can. Study hard and attend the university of your choice.:)

Thumper
May 5, 2003, 06:17 PM
Welcome and well-said, winston.

But how do I get started? Talk your parents into leaving California. :D

Actually, I wish I would've had the internet when I was 14...sites like THR will save you time, money and effort in the long haul.

This place...and the hallowed remains of www.thefiringline.com ...are a gold mine of info.

winstonsmith
May 5, 2003, 06:17 PM
When I read what your wrote, Path, I started to blush and sweat uncontrollably. I agree with what you said.

Of course violence is the last resort. It's my fault I didn't convey that well enough. I apologize for that.

Jeeze. Even after all that I'm still blushing. I never blush.

-Jack

Devonai
May 5, 2003, 06:22 PM
Glad to see you on the forums! As a Lithuanian Jew, I feel closer to you. You have already put much more thought towards this issue than most people your age. When I was fourteen I took firearms for granted... it wasn't until I moved to Massachusetts and turned 21 that I learned otherwise. You will always find support and wisdom here at THR. Thank you for posting.

PATH
May 5, 2003, 06:26 PM
winstonsmith,

My intent was not to embarass you or make you feel uncomfortable. My intent was to make you stop and think.

A firearm is only a tool. A keen and perceptive mind is that which is most important.

Welcome. I'll think you'll find some of the wisdom you seek at this site. I think you'll find that Mr. Volk a good role model.

keyhole
May 5, 2003, 06:35 PM
Glad you are here!

Study hard, and always respect others opinions, even when disagreeing with them. Keep an open mind.

Mastrogiacomo
May 5, 2003, 06:56 PM
Welcome fellow future gun owner. Check out www.jpfo.org

Moondancer
May 5, 2003, 07:34 PM
WinstonSmith,

Let me add my "Welcome" to the many others you will receive.

As someone who grew up in a family with no firearms traditions (farm people who had a .22 and a 20 gauge, but didn't hunt or shoot for recreation at all), let me say that you can and will learn if you really want to! I have to agree that you are really lucky to have the Internet to turn to. In my case I spent untold dollars on magazines to learn everything, then found out I had to throw away at least half of what I read!

Spend a lot of time here and ask a lot of questions. "The only stupid question is the one you didn't ask and should have!" For the most part people here welcome newbies and will help in any way they can.

Peruse The Firing Line, like Thumper recommends, any chance you can. After you'd been there for awhile, come back and do a search to see why it's closed for new posts. Also take a look at AR15.com, 1911Forums.com, Glocktalk, et al. Lots of information and great people to go around.

You might, after having been here for a while, see if there are any THR members in your area who could go one-on-one with you. Since I'm from IN / MI, little chance of that, but it's another avenue.

Most of all, keep your mind open. And enjoy. Welcome to the Brotherhood of the Gun!

Mastrogiacomo
May 5, 2003, 07:37 PM
Gee, no "Sisterhood of the gun?":rolleyes:

winstonsmith
May 5, 2003, 07:40 PM
Mastrogiacomo brings up a good point. We could call ourselves the fellowship of the gun, but that sounds like a cult.

-Jack

Mastrogiacomo
May 5, 2003, 07:43 PM
Stick around -- you read enough of the posts from these gun forums and it really begins to sound like a cult...but some of us are sane.:D

cordex
May 5, 2003, 07:46 PM
Welcome winstonsmith!
but some of us are sane.
He's joking, of course.

Not one of us is sane. We're all just insane in different ways, so it sort of evens out.

DigitalWarrior
May 5, 2003, 07:52 PM
Winston, remember your namesake. You are going to be immersed in innane liberal claptrap. You will be shown all kinds of pathetic souls and told it is your duty to save them. You will be told to doubt your own judgement. Remember at all times Big Brother is not your friend. You must never love him.

Me, I love Goldstein!

I don't want to insult you, but what kind of 14 year old reads Orwell and knows the word ethnographically? I think that puts you in sixth grade?

Apple a Day
May 5, 2003, 07:54 PM
I still like "Church of the M.O.A.". It has a nice ring to it.
Welcome aboard. Learn. Ponder. Ask questions. When the time is right then practice resonsible gun ownership. ;)

Combat-wombat
May 5, 2003, 08:11 PM
Yup. I'm 13 and as pro-gun as could be. It's nice to know that someone in my age group agrees with me. Although my parents let me fire guns and have bought a couple on my behalf, I share the same problem as you. My parents are not anti-gun, but they believe in guns for "legitimate sporting purposes" and would never accept the idea of buying an "assault rifle" (Not that I actually could in the PRK). They just don't get the connection between guns and freedom. Welcome to THR!

winstonsmith
May 5, 2003, 08:36 PM
Digital Warrior:

In sixth grade I took the SATs and got a 1200.. I could get into most colleges in the country with that. Now im in 9th grade in a film school.

What kind of 14 year old reads Orwell? Well, me.

Out of curiosity, where in california are you?

Standing Wolf
May 5, 2003, 08:40 PM
...in the end, the only way to defend your rights is with violence.

Welcome to the High Road, one of the best, most informative, most diverse spots on the entire internet.

I believe there are three factors that need to be mentioned รก propos your statement: the ability to defend one's rights, the willingness to defend one's rights, and the effectiveness of one's defense of one's rights.

At your age, I had three means of defending my rights: quick wits, a razor-sharp tongue, and a pocket knife. I was usually able to stand up for myself verbally; strange to say, it never even occurred to me to try the knife.

I had no very clear notion of rights at the time. That came much later, with a great deal of difficulty. I was willing to stand up for myself, but only vaguely, only in anger, only defensively. I didn't have the proverbial "big picture," so I tended to fire off my mouth, shrug, and walk away. I was completely oblivious to the idea that rights include responsibilities.

If it need be said, I didn't stand up for myself very effectively. I was mainly just another loud-mouthed rebel with lots of ideas I hadn't thought through very well, couldn't articulate very clearly.

You seem to be quite a bit further along than I was at your age.

Ultimately, it's sometimes necessary to have the ability, willingness, and plain old-fashioned courage to defend our rights with violence. That's what we're doing as a nation in Iraq. That's what we do every time we refuse to be criminals' victims. Violence certainly isn't the only means we have to defend our rights, but I believe there are times it's unavoidable.

I hope you'll hang out here, toss in your two bits' worth, and continue to outgrow your environment.

Mastrogiacomo
May 5, 2003, 09:01 PM
Brace yourself Winstonsmith -- this kind of thing happens a lot. Especially to me. This is what you get for speaking your thoughts but not all of us are so militant and rude although I'm sure no offense was intended by Digital. Still, people can be insulting on these forums. Use my philosophy: Keep your guard up and trust no one. :)

winstonsmith
May 5, 2003, 09:04 PM
I wasn't offended by Digital at all, It didnt even occur to me that he meant to be rude. I just thought he was being playful, abeit roughly.

Soap
May 5, 2003, 09:13 PM
Jack-

The key to the beginning lies here:

I- All guns are always loaded.

II- Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

III- Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are aligned with your target.

IV- Be sure of your target, backstop, and what is beyond it.

Like El Tejon said, talk to your parents. Do not listen to people who believe in the magic sword, Tommy Tacticals, mall ninjas, or Gun Shoppe Commandos. Get some good books on shooting, like the series by Gabe Suarez, Art of the Rifle by Cooper, etc. Keep good morals and ethics, study hard in academics, study hard with your firearms.

Sven
May 5, 2003, 09:33 PM
Welcome to the forum. This is a great place to get started.

I'm a bit confused about your statement about violence... maybe you can elaborate.

I live down in Palo Alto and believe me - there are many others feeling what you are feeling. Having gone to Stanford, I can also tell you that you will find very few allies in academia... the Ivory Tower of college is even more filled with the twisted left.

The most difficult thing you will face will be the temptation to try to 'straighten your friends out'... trust me, there is truth in the old expression:

"There's no use in trying to teach a pig to sing, it won't work, and you just end up annoying the pig"

I've pretty much given up on my 'friends' here in the Bay Area, who would gladly sign over their rights to own firearms in the name of 'public safety'.

You were asking how to get started... research. Become an active participant of this forum. Don't be afraid to ask questions.

See if your parents would allow to you 'own' a .22 LR rifle. If not, see if they would let you come along to one of our Bay Area shoots, with them in tow. Try my guns out and see what you think (again, with your parents' blessing).

Welcome!

-sven

Mastrogiacomo
May 5, 2003, 09:40 PM
Wish I had access to guns growing up. Would have loved to have played with a Beretta back then....only toys I remember fondly as a kid were the snap guns I had.:D

Erik Jensen
May 5, 2003, 09:52 PM
oh... cordex? mastrogiacomo is a she.. not a he. ;-)

Mastrogiacomo
May 5, 2003, 09:55 PM
Yes, women own guns too! Why is that so odd? I used to watch the Lone Ranger all the time on channel 56 and dreamed of owning a silver bullet. Closest I'll come to that are the Winchester Silver Tip Hollow Points -- and they're tough to find online....;)

winstonsmith
May 5, 2003, 10:21 PM
I've corrected my orignal statement. Im sorry about the confusion about violence.. geeze...

I must have not emphasized the part about "IN THE END the only way to defend your rights is with violence"

Sorry for the confusion.

winstonsmith
May 5, 2003, 10:34 PM
I just might take you up on that offer Sven.. it's very tempting

If it came to that, how would we arrange that?


-Jack

Combat-wombat
May 5, 2003, 10:49 PM
Let's see. So far I know someone who got a 1200 on the SAT in 6th grade, someone who has a doctorate in physics, and a well-respected lawyer. What do they have in common? They're pro-gun. To think that Sarah Brady calls pro-gunners rednecks...

winstonsmith
May 5, 2003, 11:28 PM
My neck is most definitely white, wombat.

;-)

CB900F
May 5, 2003, 11:52 PM
Combat Wombat;

Do the terms PABATCO, or Hodaka mean anything to you?
900F

chaim
May 6, 2003, 02:01 AM
Shalom Aleichem Winston, welcome to THR.

I too had (well, BH I still have) very anti-gun parents. That can make things hard, but then again you are a blank slate and you aren't being fed misconceptions about guns yet (well you aren't learning poor technique that you'll need to unlearn or you aren't getting the "/fill in the blank/ is the be all and end all in gun designs" treatment). Get plugged into the right information sources and you can skip a lot of the learning curve.But how do I get started? Talk to your parents about getting a pellet gun or even a BB gun. Air guns are a great way to start learning marksmanship and gun safety cheaply and relatively safely (G-d forbid, if you make a big safety mistake the stakes are a bit lower). If they won't get you one see if they'll let you buy one. When I was 17 or 18 I bought my first gun, sort of, a Crossman .177 caliber pellet air gun (a "copy" of a S&W .357mag revolver). I wish I still had it (it is probably somewhere in my parents' house but I have no clue where). The next thing I did (not to learn to use guns, but it was a nice fringe benefit) was join the Army and left for training shortly after graduating from high school, this is where I first shot a "real" gun (an air gun actually is a real gun, but the Army is where I first shot a firearm).

If you wouldn't consider the Army (or military generally) or ROTC then look for a college with a shooting team, they are out there. I spent some time at Norwich University in Vermont and they had an active shooting team there.

When you are ready for your own handgun, get a .22lr rifle:D . Great way to learn even more about accuracy, sight picture, more gun safety, etc. You can also get a decent one for around $100 and a good one for under $200. After a few months to a year on that you will be ready for either a .22lr pistol or a .38spl or .357mag revolver (a great starter pistol- simple, very obvious DA and SA operation, you can shoot cheap w/ .38spl, there is good .38spl and +P defensive ammo that you can use and you can use incredibly fun .357mag ammo as well). Also, used revolvers can be had at a college student's budget (well, painfully, but it should be possible). After that, the hobby will slowly take off from there (or not so slowly- 2-3 years in I now have 9 handguns and 6 long guns and I have sold 4 other guns I have bought). You will need to wait for your 18th birthday for the long guns and your 21st for handguns, but don't worry, it will come before you know it. Until then, have fun w/ air guns and look for gun clubs in your area that might let you join (most have air gun ranges and competitions and most have friendly members who, at least once they get used to seeing you around, may well let you shoot off a few mags or cylinders of their guns) and look for colleges with shooting teams that will take on inexperienced shooters.

Good luck, and welcome again to THR.

OneShot
May 6, 2003, 02:47 AM
Jack, I am also in the Bay Area about 40 miles from SF. I would also be willing to help you out with a trip to the range. It would of course be subject to both verbal and written permission from your parents.

I have Rossi 22lr rifle that would be perfect for you.

I know exactly how you feel being born in SF and being a long time Bay Area resident. You can e mail me at delsolrob@attbi.com if you'd like--Rob

R127
May 6, 2003, 05:25 AM
I have noticed that most highly intelligent people tend to be pro-freedom, socially responsible and firearms-friendly...

I was about 14 when I realized I was a right-winger. When I was in school we were subjected to a lot of leftist propaganda, but nothing like what goes on today. I am proud to see that despite the best efforts of the thought police and peer pressure a new generation is seeing the truth and making the right decisions.

I was very excited to get my first rifle, I purchased my first handgun within weeks of turning 21. I currently put 200 rounds through my CZ 75 every week now. Shooting is a great sport, marksmanship is a skill and discipline worth mastering. There are many of us whose people were faced with the horrors of Nazism and socialist regimes, those families which remember these events will not soon forget the necessity of being ready to defend yourself, your loved ones and your country.

I come from a traditional school of thought that suggests a man has a certain duty to be trained in the use of arms. I think 14 is a good age to start learning about unarmed, stick and edged weapons fighting, and marksmanship if you can... however, and I say this with full credit and respect unto you, at 14 you are also still a child and the full burden of manhood and citizenship has not yet fallen upon you. Focus on developing your good character, make getting a solid education and employable work skills a high priority. Eat junk food, play videogames, ride your bike, build a skateboard ramp, stay up too late reading books, watching movies or playing rpg's, just generally enjoy being a kid. In 4 years you will be, legally and morally, an adult. Us older guys will hold the fort till it's your time to come help stand watch. Always remember that what we fight for, politically or militarily, isn't guns, it isn't the right to kill badguys or hunt deer. We fight for freedom, we fight for love. We fight so that our wives and our children might live peaceful happy lives free from the fear of oppression or violent attack.

Mastrogiacomo
May 6, 2003, 07:37 AM
Don't forget Winstonsmith that another great place to start is by supporting groups like www.jpfo.org when you get working. They protect your gun rights. Learn all you can about guns so when you turn 21, you'll have some ideas about what you want to buy -- probably wouldn't hurt also to save money aside for the required gun safety class, permit, and handguns. This way, you have your financial situation settled upon your 21st birthday and can treat yourself to a handgun as a gift to yourself.

If you take any firearm safety courses or classes in the interim, save all the certificates so you can present copies to the police department when you submit your application for a gun permit. That will demonstrate your responsibility and willingness to practice gun safety.;) Don't worry about your post, I didn't take anything out of context -- you sound like most of us that are just frustrated living in such an anti gun climate. It's no bargin in Massachusetts...

H Romberg
May 6, 2003, 08:38 AM
Welcome aboard. BTW, talk to Oleg Volk about the issues of religion, politics, guns, and the state. I think you'll find a lot in common, and maybe some insights into dealing with the 'rents.

HankB
May 6, 2003, 09:06 AM
winstonsmith - welcome aboard.

Fortunately, I had a very pro-gun father. So I got a BB gun at 4, a .22 rifle at 7, and a .22 revolver for 8th grade graduation. (Much to my mother's dismay!)

Funny thing is, it never occured to me to use any of these to settle my differences with other students, teachers, or neighborhood kids. That was never a part of my world view.

Anyway, growing up in Chicago, I found - especially in the schools - a left wing mentality, even then. And yes, I did have some debates about gun control and other issues with teachers. I found in most cases well-reasoned arguments, presented calmly and impersonally, were accepted. And if you know what the usual "anti" arguments and counter-arguments are, you can have responses PREPARED which tends to throw them off their stride when they disagree.

On the other hand, some teachers were so arrogant and self-rightous that they would hold your opinion against you when it came time to assign grades. I didn't waste time on these idiots . . . there's an old proverb that I took to heart: When you wrestle with a pig, all you get is dirty. And the pig, well, he enjoys it.

winstonsmith
May 6, 2003, 01:29 PM
Yeah, all you are saying about the liberalism of schools is true. If all schools are left wing, think about one in San Francisco. And it's an art school.

Yeah. Exactly.

Oh yeah, and r127? I do all those things, except that skateboarding thing. Not my type of activity. But, as I'm unembarassed to say I do run a role-playing game group.

I have a stupid question. I know what .22lr is, but I've heard some people talk about a .22. Are those two different cartridges?

Its ironic that someone told me to talk to Mr. Volk because he told me to talk to you. ;)

Shalom Aleichem to you too Chaim. I am actually considering the army. I know its a romantic stupid dream, but I want to be an 101st Airborne.They're just so g-dammned cool...

-Jack

Sven
May 6, 2003, 01:50 PM
If you want to shoot, don't join the military - some guys only fire 200 rounds before they are 'turned loose'. Depends on your unit, but ask around before you commit and consider your other options carefully.

.22 and .22LR are usually referring to the same thing.

Regarding getting together, I'm in the same boat as the others here... I'd need written and oral permission from your parents and also would prefer if one of them came along.

Email me (click the link below) and we'll talk.

-s
Palo Alto

winstonsmith
May 6, 2003, 01:54 PM
I'll do that.. you know whats funny? Noone has asked me yet why I havent been at school.

The answer is: I have strep throat AND sinusitis. Not fun times. Very not fun times.

MicroBalrog
May 6, 2003, 02:52 PM
Winston, don't feel bad. Take a Victory Gin ;-)
I'm 18, and I've never seen a real shotgun, just the stuff the military and police carry. (Except in picture).
Actually, we have a lot in common.
If you are into Role-Playing and guns, check into
microbalrog.fuzioncentral.net (http://microbalrog.fuzioncentral.net)

Meow
May 6, 2003, 03:15 PM
Hello winstonsmith! I'm very thankful to have parents who (mostly) understand that it isn't harmfull for commoners to own guns. I am currently in the process of convencing mo mother to get a gun (revolver). good luck. don't give up on your parents yet!:D

Meow

ps feel free to pm me

Baba Louie
May 6, 2003, 04:34 PM
Winstonsmith,

Welcome to THR.

Daniel Flory's words are the place to start. The four (4) basic rules which must be pounded into the brain until they are intuitive thought/reactions. Automatic. Safety.

Please invite your parents to look through the board as well with the intent of perhaps exposing them to your potential future lifestyle (or an important portion thereof).

Where to start? Safety.

A little research.

Gunpowder
Arms
History (with an emphasis on technological improvements in Arms and their effects on War)
Safety
Calibers (size of hole in barrel as related to cartridge size)
American History (Founding Fathers... very wise men) from Pre-revolutionary war, civil war, 20th century
Ballisitics (why does a bullet do what it does?)
Laws (Local, State, Federal) concerning firearms

But most importantly... GO SHOOTING! (Safely)

Take your Dad. Take your Mom.

Start small.

BB/Airguns, Paintball (Still dangerous), .22 (CB, short, longs, long rifles, magnums, shotshell) rimfire, then plan on a move up to centerfire cartridges.

Stick around. Have some fun. Safety.

Won't be long till you're an old man of almost 50 talking to another teenager who has done something right with his life by asking the right questions.

Adios

PS: Think safety. Guns are dangerous and are to be respected.

(edited to add)
Gun Control is good. Hit your target. Use both hands, etc.
People control, via elimination of firearms however, is bad.

Waitone
May 6, 2003, 09:15 PM
Winstonsmith, welcome to THR. Glad to see you want to start young. All advice to this point is sound. I want to add just two suggestions.

First, sharpen your mind as well as your aim. Noting your age and SAT score I see you have a head start. I'd suggest spending time in researching the facts of the second amendment. Learn reality. Learn how to debate both verbally and with the written word. Learn logic. Learn debate techniques. Learn how to speak publically. In short spend time in learning to be an advocate of the right to keep and bear arms.

Second, layout a multi-year gameplan on professional instruction on how to shoot and do it safely. You really have the opportunity to do it right. Take all the courses you can find (the NRA is a good place to start) on safe shooting fundamentals. Live with the results for a while and when you are ready to take up rifles, take all the NRA courses available. Same for pistol shooting. Shooting is too much like golf. You can achieve a level of proficiency without professional instruction but you will limit yourself. Spend the money and take the time to get it rght.

Welcome aboard. Newbie buys the ammo. . . . .well, we'll take a raincheck.

OneShot
May 6, 2003, 09:34 PM
I have invited to take both Jack and one or both of his parents on a range day. I feel that bringing one or both of his parents along would be the way to go.

Maybe if his Dad tagged along, I could get him interested in shooting. I am an ex Military Police officer and stress safety at the range above anything else.--Rob

CB900F
May 6, 2003, 09:41 PM
Winston;

In answer to your very legitimate question:

The .22 refers to the common designation of the barrel bore dia.
The lr is a contraction of 'long rifle'. Long rifle is the name of a specific rim fire cartridge. In the common rim fire family (Note fella's I said common) there are short, long, and long rifle in the .22 bore. There are others such as CB caps etc.

However, there are also many center fire .22 class cartridges. They share the same bore diameter, but differ markedly in virtually all other areas. For instance, to contrast two well-known .22's in common use, the .22lr and the .223 Remington, AKA the 5.56 NATO, the current U.S. military rifle cartridge.

The .22lr in a rifle, will push a 40 grain bullet in the very loose range of 900 to 1200 feet per second. The operating pressures are quite mild in comparison to the center fires, and the powder used is but a fraction of the amount contained in the military cartridge. The maximum effective range depends upon the use, ie targets or small game, but 100 yards is a good figure to use.

The .223 will be used with bullets ranging from 40 to 70 grains of weight. But for simplicity's sake, I'm going to stick with the 40's.
The maximum operating pressure for commercial loadings is approximately 50,000 psi. The amount of powder used will vary in handloading, but let's say 25 grains, as opposed to about 3 grains for the .22lr. The velocity attained will be in the area of 3450 feet per second. The max range is considered to be 600 yards. That doesn't mean that's as far as the bullet will travel, far from it. It means that the bullet still has enough energy to do the job, whatever job that is, at that range. So, punching through paper takes less energy than taking game in a humane manner. Therefore, while it may be an interesting passtime to see how accurate one may be at 800 yards with the .223. It would still be irresponsible, given fine accuracy, to attempt to take a deer at that range. There are more than a few who consider the taking of deer an any range with the .223 to be irresponsible.

As a side note, the naming and designation of cartridges as opposed to the actual physical dimensions, is an often confusing but facsinating area of study. I would recommend Mr. Frank Barnes' "Cartridges Of The World" as an excellent starting point.
Respectfully Yours
CB900F

Feanaro
May 7, 2003, 02:40 AM
I'm glad to know that dedication to this country is still alive. When I say I'd lay down my life for America and thank her for the honor people look at me funny. A warm welcome to THR.

Most people get a .22LR as their first gun. I'm not sure about the PRK laws but I assume a .22 is legal. Good starter, accurate and it keeps your from building up a flinch. Get those rabbits and squirrels good too. ;)

You can move up to bigger and sexier guns after you get some practice in.

Or if you are like me and you're macho/stubborn you can start off with a twelve gauge. :D

Drjones
May 7, 2003, 04:32 AM
WELCOME to THR!!! :D

Can I adopt you as a little brother??? :D :D :D

If I might make a few suggestions:

Buy and read:

1) Nation of Cowards by Jeff Snyder

(An excerpt can be found here: http://www.rkba.org/comment/cowards.html )

2) "In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob - Not that you'll be carrying a gun anytime soon, but it will give you a better understanding of the implications of using lethal force and when exactly it is and is not appropriate.

3) "What's So Great About America" by Dinesh D'Souza - Simply a superb book.


Sven is a great guy. I've had the pleasure of meeting him before. He has some cool guns! :cool:

Stay safe, feel better, and stick around here!!!

cratz2
May 7, 2003, 08:50 AM
I'll throw in another, 'Welcome!' just to be sure you heard it.

You remind me of me 16 years ago - was I really 14, 16 years ago? If you turn out half
as well as I did, I pity you... hopefully you'll turn out better. :p

braindead0
May 7, 2003, 09:21 AM
It's a shame what has become of **********. When my dad was your age he was on the rifle team at his school (in California no less!).

Keep your ears and eyes open, make some friends..and don't be shy about your interest in firearms. Odds are you may meet someone around your age who has parents that are into firearms. And perhaps, in time.. they might invite you to shooting (with your parents permission of course).

You just never know.

winstonsmith
May 7, 2003, 06:45 PM
SO THATS WHAT THEY MEAN BY PRK! Peoples Republic of **********, right? Ohh, I thought I was going crazy.. usually I can figure out acronyms, but wow.. I hope im right.. otherwise that would be embarassing.

Sven has cool guns eh? Like what?

Jack..

Combat-wombat
May 7, 2003, 07:52 PM
Yes, PRK means People's Republik of **********. If you can talk your parents into getting a gun, a Remington model 597 .22LR would work well. You can get them in with synthetic stocks, but try the M597 LSS with the wood stock/stainless steel barrel. The main reason I say this is because anti-gunners usually consider regular, wooden stocks to be less "ugly" than black, synthetic ones, so it might look better to your parents. Remington Rimfire Riflles (http://www.remington.com/firearms/rimfire/rimfire.htm)

Drjones
May 8, 2003, 12:45 AM
The main reason I say this is because anti-gunners usually consider regular, wooden stocks to be less "ugly" than black, synthetic ones, so it might look better to your parents.

This says it best.


http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/blackrifle_s.jpg

geekWithA.45
May 8, 2003, 08:39 AM
It is SO refreshing to meet new people who "get it".

In addition to the advice given in the previous pages, I'll add the following.

First, there is a phrase from the Boy Scouts Rifle and Shotgun merit badge book from the 70's that remains etched in my mind, right alongside the 4 rules:


"You are responsible for what you do with your firearm, both to the law immediately, and to your conscience forever."


Second, there ARE youth shooting clubs, often affiliated with the NRA that have pretty comprehensive training for young shooters. Unfortunately, I don't know any out in your neck of the woods, but they are to be found.

For example, even in NJ, the Delran Jr. Marksman's club has an excellent program for kids. Each Jr. shooter pays $25 for a year. (The club's costs are paid by the parental members @ $125 a year.) Initial training begins in winter with pellet rifles, and you graduate to .22lr in summer if you achieve a given level of proficiency. If you "graduate" the rimfire section, you can then move on to shotgun/skeet and center fire rifle.

These sorts of clubs are great. You get great training, you'll get to hang out with other kids having the same interests, and all the structured supervision is a BIG RELIEF for your parents, who will have the important opportunity of meeting other perfectly normal, non freakish people who happen to believe that the 2nd Amendment is a good thing.

I hope you can find such a club.

Combat-wombat
May 10, 2003, 09:38 PM
In addition to Drjones link, check out this article on Oleg's site. It also explains gun asthetics. Asthetics (http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/looks.html)

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